Is Hespar Bad?

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

5 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Hespar is a cool looking weapon, it's not the greatest with that very high impact weighting and slow attacks but that didn't stop me from dumping 4 forma and potato into it.

Yea the Praedos 5th evolution is very lacklustre, it should be more than just average for an incarnon weapon, especially how insane the other two are.

i actually have been liking the hespar, just realized that i will need to do a lot of trial and error to make it great.

i actually want to  make it my main melee weapon.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 is plagued with a newly invented physics mechanics. Horrible to use in tighter tiles or if you wanna camp in certain places. I guess it looks amazing if tested in Sim which is 100% open, or only used in very forgiving maps. Standing in a doorway and trying to use it will 90% of the time result in it bouncing of your left door post, giving it a wonky path to where you want it to go, often resulting in blowing the load on nothing, or in worst case scenarios, pulling the enemies to where you dont want them at all.

You can detonate mid travel on command by tapping the ability again.

[drnlmza]

3 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:

As some Hespar owners already know, yes it sucks. But is it supposed to suck?

DE generally balances weapons for their Mastery Brackets. It's not a perfect system, but it is a major influence. That's why Kuva and Tenet weapons are the highest MR weapons and are widely the strongest in the game,

 

Given how many of the melee weapons in the MR12 bracket show up near the top of the ever-popular tier lists, the Hespar would need to be pretty exceptional to stand out. Arguably this shows that it's MR requirement is too high, but it's high MR level is probably at least partially due to where it is in the star chart and quest progression.

 

3 hours ago, VhwatGoes said:

No. It is objectively the worst. Even doubling the stance multipliers of Galeforce Dawn would only place it in the middle of the pack, but still being the weakest slasher for more than a single enemy due to the very weak follow through and still the #1 weakest in raw damage that doesn't make up for the inadequate slash.

Doesn't this mostly show that the stance is awful, rather than the weapon? At the doubled levels, the damage values look acceptable, and the stance multipliers still don't stand out compared to the other stances tested. 

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

You can detonate mid travel on command by tapping the ability again.

That doesnt help since it has a set lifetime, meaning if terrain interfears, it bounces the wrong way or goes too short, detonating it manually wont help it get to where it should. If it kept going like some bouncy ball for aslong as you wanted it would work with manual detonation, but as it is now it just wont reach the target area you want it to.

Deimos maps or anything else with infested goopoo, or narrow doorways aswell as low fences and other things completely ruins the skill. Even lobbing it fails, since it might catch whatever you are standing near instead and go boop on the ground and roll towards the target from where you stand. It is a hot mess with a sprinkle of turd ontop of it. And all of it due to DE's new zero-reason-to-add-this physics.

I do hope you like Alternox when you get it. It is a fun gun but deals abyssmal damage, even against non-armored infested.

[Numerikuu]

34 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

Gonna have to stop you right there. Eximus are immune to CC and ancient healers give all nearby enemies Overguard, making them also immune to CC.

Take down their Overguard/kill them? The only ones that are a pain in the arse atm are the energy draining ones, since they bug out her 3's energy regen.

34 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

also due to her low health, she dies very fast from status procs. also, there are now a lot of enemies that drain energy by the hundreds.

Go full umbral with her, she'll have over 1k health. Use Rolling Guard, though for near total immunity to status throw on the Carnis set on top. You'll also have extra evasion as a bonus for surviving.

34 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

ya, she is great for mid to low levels, but once you do harder missions, she starts falling off very quickly ad overall her gimmick doesnt really do much once the enemies get strong enough. would be better off using volt or Garuda.

i have actually been trying to use this weapon and have 2 forma in it, but it seems to have trouble at higher levels, i even wanted to see if i could get it to work, so i got a riven for it. 

What level range do you classify as mid-low? Also same for high? Just to clear things up a bit in terms of how we're viewing this.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

So IT'S NOT BAD

i knew it.

All those Warframe YouTubers including leyzar saying how horrible it is, and i am like "but it's beautiful :["

i mean i trust leyzar with his builds and information but maybe he meant it's bad for high level steel path content or something...

everyone in the game says it's completely fine too

It's not a Zarr, Bramma, or Ogris, therefore bad obviously 😂

It's fine, though its alt-fire needs fixing. Using primed shred on mine and the punch through sadly causes the orb to go through any terrain that's not fully solid, which is very annoying.

[-Krism-]

22 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

why do i care that they try to bring in actual balanced and worthwile weapons rather than weapons that are underperforming in areas?

So you don't actually look at what's fun to play, all you care about is damage, I understand your logic now

 

23 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

like, its a pain to farm, it requires pretty high standing in the latest syndicate and your forced to make it in order to make the other 2 weapons fully evolved.

Hmm yes, I must have everything in the next 24h after the update launched otherwise it's garbage not worth farming for

Nobody told you to farm until you were bored, you have multiple weeks if not months until new stuff comes out

 

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

i dont get why your so upset with my opinion. like its fine if you like it but in my opinion its a bad weapon. my opinion shouldnt matter to you.

This is how discussions work

 

25 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

also, the incarnon form is literally what makes it special, so why are you sooo against making its special form actually special? and make its evolutions actually matter.

I only said I was talking about the base stats

[DaMasque]

Neutral E combo does not feel good but dayum does it look cool. 

Heavy attack crit builds seems to do fine, getting me through some SP alerts without me worrying too much.

Weeping Wounds build would get me around 200% status and with how fast you can get to 12x with naramon now, its kinda fun. No huge 6 digit numbers but procs everywhere.

My only problem would probably be the 2.8 range. I can not for the life of me not use Primed Reach and because of that my hybrid build is crippled with slow attack speed and lack of range.

Overall I agree, is not good weapon, but is huge scythe and that wins in my book.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

28 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Take down their Overguard/kill them? The only ones that are a pain in the arse atm are the energy draining ones, since they bug out her 3's energy regen.

 if you want to use her in the zariman, you have those thrax enemies. but even then, the main issue is that their overguard makes them CC immune and they then can just bully you with their status abilities, also ones like the Guardian can be a pain to deal with using a low HP frame since they still have fully functional guns.

28 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Go full umbral with her, she'll have over 1k health. Use Rolling Guard, though for near total immunity to status throw on the Carnis set on top. You'll also have extra evasion as a bonus for surviving.

but then she willeffectively have no mods to boost her abilities, unless you mean focus survivability and atleast she will have like 170% strength. which i guess that would be decently effective.

28 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

What level range do you classify as mid-low? Also same for high? Just to clear things up a bit in terms of how we're viewing this.

id say 1-20  low= 21-30 midlow=31-40 midhigh=41-50 high=51-80 endgame=81+

kinda how id see it.

 

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

20 minutes ago, -Krism- said:

So you don't actually look at what's fun to play, all you care about is damage, I understand your logic now

 

Hmm yes, I must have everything in the next 24h after the update launched otherwise it's garbage not worth farming for

Nobody told you to farm until you were bored, you have multiple weeks if not months until new stuff comes out

 

This is how discussions work

 

I only said I was talking about the base stats

what i care about is a fun weapon that is effective. i like seeing that i am able to do decent wile also having a weapon that i like how it works and plays.

if all i cared about was damage, then i wouldnt of been trying to make the alternox or hespar work. even if i think they are bad weapons.

but also, the praedos literally has nothing going for it. its a reskin with a special mode thats pointless and special evolutions that change nothing about how you could mod it.

it doesnt attack differently than other tonfas, it doesnt do anything unique and the one thing it does unique... sucks.

[-Krism-]

17 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

what i care about is a fun weapon that is effective.

& that's where the conversation loops since I already answered this, so let's stop there

[Prexades]

It's not the Meta, at least for me but I have a lot of Warframes for all roles. If a new one is released I have to think, where do I have to or want to use it and if I already have a maxed Warframe for that particular role or several, than a new Warfame is probably thrown into the subsumption bin right after gettings mastery points, which happened to Yareli, Caliban and Gyre lately.

Same with weapons needs to have at least something fun going for it, to get me to keep it.

[Numerikuu]

39 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

id say 1-20  low= 21-30 midlow=31-40 midhigh=41-50 high=51-80 endgame=81+

kinda how id see it.

In that case, if you're struggling with her at low-mid levels then you're doing something wrong.

40 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

 if you want to use her in the zariman, you have those thrax enemies. but even then, the main issue is that their overguard makes them CC immune and they then can just bully you with their status abilities, also ones like the Guardian can be a pain to deal with using a low HP frame since they still have fully functional guns.

I've been doing SP/lvl130+ with her perfectly fine. The only time I might break a sweat with her is if the Eximus spawns get a little out of control, though even then that's just a matter of prioritising targets and repositioning. Don't forget you also have the Operator as well. As for Guardians, jump, aim glide, headshot from above. We're supposed to be able to shoot through the gaps in their barrier, but it's bugged from my experience with them at the moment. As for the thrax, one heavy attack from the Hespar is usually enough.

45 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

but then she willeffectively have no mods to boost her abilities, unless you mean focus survivability and atleast she will have like 170% strength. which i guess that would be decently effective.

False. Here's the build I'm using on her currently, though I plan on trying a Carnis build on her soon for the evasion and status immunity.

On 2022-05-03 at 3:10 AM, Numerikuu said:

(Ignore the 255% duration though. 100% of it is from a current Helminth infusion):

  Reveal hidden contents

I also have Dethcube Ordis kitted out with a disgustingly rivened Verglas, so I hardly touch the Alternox's alt-fire or Nukor. All I need to do is toss down her 2 to group them up, then her 1 for the electric procs, then Ordis lays down viral and even more electric procs while I wind up the heavy attack with my 3 and 4 active 😚

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Usually the first weapon of a new weapon type sucks.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

46 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

In that case, if you're struggling with her at low-mid levels then you're doing something wrong.

I've been doing SP/lvl130+ with her perfectly fine. The only time I might break a sweat with her is if the Eximus spawns get a little out of control, though even then that's just a matter of prioritising targets and repositioning. Don't forget you also have the Operator as well. As for Guardians, jump, aim glide, headshot from above. We're supposed to be able to shoot through the gaps in their barrier, but it's bugged from my experience with them at the moment. As for the thrax, one heavy attack from the Hespar is usually enough.

False. Here's the build I'm using on her currently, though I plan on trying a Carnis build on her soon for the evasion and status immunity.

wow thats a impressive build actually, i didnt think to do a build like that. though that is very very forma intensive, 7 forma is more than my most formaed frames, which is 3 on Garuda.

i have 2 builds i tried on her, but they are nothing like yours XD 1 build is a duration+range build and the other is  duration+strength

Spoiler

 

so ya, i admit defeat, with 7 forma i bet you could make a great gyre build. if i had more than 0 forma atm, i may actually try to replicate your build.

i will try to use her more though, tbh even though people disliked Yareli i actually liked her. 

so ya, ty for proving me wrong, with enough forma i bet any frame could be good at end game content i guess.

just like imo i think Yareli can do end game content decently well. (though it could be better if i did more than 2 forma, but i always worry that i may miss forma and end up messing up the build) this build is  me trying to do a Forma effecient build focusing on Merulina and Aquablades. though there is probably a better way to build it.

Spoiler

thank you for showing that you can do a effective tanky build wile not  losing heavily stat wise.

+1 to you.

Edit: i just realized that this build isnt using primed continuity due to not having it when i played Yareli a lot, duration is at 311%

[Numerikuu]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

wow thats a impressive build actually, i didnt think to do a build like that. though that is very very forma intensive, 7 forma is more than my most formaed frames, which is 3 on Garuda.

i have 2 builds i tried on her, but they are nothing like yours XD 1 build is a duration+range build and the other is  duration+strength

  Reveal hidden contents

 

so ya, i admit defeat, with 7 forma i bet you could make a great gyre build. if i had more than 0 forma atm, i may actually try to replicate your build.

i will try to use her more though, tbh even though people disliked Yareli i actually liked her. 

so ya, ty for proving me wrong, with enough forma i bet any frame could be good at end game content i guess.

just like imo i think Yareli can do end game content decently well. (though it could be better if i did more than 2 forma, but i always worry that i may miss forma and end up messing up the build) this build is  me trying to do a Forma effecient build focusing on Merulina and Aquablades. though there is probably a better way to build it.

  Reveal hidden contents

thank you for showing that you can do a effective tanky build wile not  losing heavily stat wise.

+1 to you.

Edit: i just realized that this build isnt using primed continuity due to not having it when i played Yareli a lot, duration is at 311%

I think one or two of those forma's was from me re-forma'ing a slot I'd already forma'd since I switched my build around. In the end it's what works for me currently with how I play. There is no right or wrong build, so use what suits you best. Same goes for everything else out there 🙂

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

Ive personally been loving the hespar, although I use it only for its heavy attack. The 3 hit heavy with (as far as I can tell) forced slash proc makes it deal considerable damage and it has become my main weapon for endless flood/cascades since it shreds the thrax units. Comparing it to the penant, another weapon I enjoy, the CO feels more effective all round then the penant’s crit, even with the slash procs

[jellyunicorn]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Usually the first weapon of a new weapon type sucks.

Every new 2h scythe will suck, it's not like the hespar has bad stats, the stance just sucks and they have 0.4 follow through

[rainy]

On 2022-05-05 at 6:25 AM, (NSW)Vampire_Mika said:

she doesnt have any survivability and you cant replace any of her skills without messing up her kit. her damage also falls off a lot at higher levels.

her 4 was also made pretty lackluster with the fix they did. she should do great at mid to low levels, but she doesnt have enough damage to make up for her poor survivability at high levels.

imo she will probably end up just like Caliban and yareli, Mastery fodder. like its crazy how rare caliban is when he was released not too long ago, but its just because he doesnt really have anything going for him either.

Kind of off topic, but Gyre has little survival issues. She depends on shield gating, which requires Decaying Key, and all her abilities either stun or succ. Her 1 is easiest to replace, 2 succ is kind of her best ability, which is like a Sevagoth repeat, 3 is okay but I appreciate the energy regen and minor critical bonus, and the 4 is some extra stunning power.

Easy subsumes to fix her, much like Caliban, are Gloom and Condemn, and you'll never die again. You're left with a CC frame with some extra crit and very sustainable energy. Compared to Yareli and Caliban, she has low damage, despite the flashy red numbers. Modding her is easy though, just like Yareli, so I forsee a powerful augment for her to fix some of her issues.

 

I've wanted to write a Caliban thread for a long time, but every time I started writing, I felt like I didn't know enough about him to criticize why exactly he is weak relative to other frames. To sum him up:

• Fusion Strike is his sole reason to exist, overshadowing his other tools.
• Summons are legit a waste of time and energy. The regen is okay for levels ~50, but after that they have zero merit due to their shield regen handicaps.
• Sentient wrath needs to not release enemies from lift when they take any damage, and it needs to lose its cooldown to it can actually dip on its own amp.
• Razor gyre is hilariously worthless and has almost no place. It needs to be wildly buffed in speed or defense or simply removed. Being helminth fodder is its greatest asset, which:
• Helminth Condemn and you'll never die again.

Full and permanent armor and shield removal is an amazing asset, on top of a small damage amp makes him an excellent frame in my opinion, and I've actually seen plenty of Calibans in the wild, not good ones but they're out there. He only suffers from the same base survival issues that most frames suffer from. It is an issue not limited to Caliban but massive inequity in frame ehp and survival tools.

 

As for Yareli, she was indeed garbage, but then surging blades happened and she is now very strong. K-drive drives weird af still, and secondaries sucked until Laetum appeared. The non-crit buff obviously doesn't work for her because passive, but the 1200% damage bonus will actually be stronger anyways thanks to it. Give it a try folks. She however needs:

• Transference to not dismount you again
• K-drives to not drive like they have wheels
• Riptide to be a two-stage ability like Larva with its augment. First a succ you can hold, and then a detonation you can manually trigger.

 

Edit: Retrospective ~8 months later, Gyre has survival issues. Above-avg shield capacity makes shield gating difficult. I have many strong feelings about this frame and they aren't good.

[rainy]

8 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Isnt META, so its terrible, I imagine.

There are many different arguments that can be made to make the Hespar more powerful.

When people say META, they are talking about one of three things:

1. Is it the absolute strongest, despite the content?
2. Can it be used in obscenely overleveled lvl9999 content?
3. Can it be competently used to efficiently clear reasonable content like lvl 140 steel path, sorties, boss farms etc.

I fall into #3, I play this game like a collector, not a sweaty damage simp. I use what I enjoy, as long as it doesn't slow me down / waste my time. That's why my damage comparison in the OP uses a non-SP Heavy Gunner for a damage reference.

Hespar however, is a weapon that may seriously lack in speed and damage. It has genuine difficulty clearing moderate content, especially at its mastery rank, which is the metric DE themselves are supposed to be tuning the weapons to.

 

Then there is the argument for balance. Why should a game like Warframe seek some semblance of balance?

Warframe is a game that grants incredible content and gameplay variety, but it also has an ideal way to play. Warframe is LONG and takes a silly amount of time to really clear. The most rewarding ways to play are ways that make you progress quickly. Optimizing my clear speed is where I find my fun.

Because speed and efficiency are therefore crucial, you are suddenly pigeonholed by what the content demands. Many frames and weapons find purpose in a content niche. There are frames that are efficient with resource farming, railjack flying, eidolon hunting, interception stalling, defense wave clearing, ESO deleting, Orphix energy feeding, void flood flying, fissure speedrunning, and many more. There are weapons that excel in boss slaying, and weapons that excel in massive crowd deletion. AoE currently dominates because crowds are 90% of content, which is why I celebrate the eximus rework as a step in bringing single target weapons a purpose. The frames and weapons that don't see use are simply the ones that fail to meet the efficiency check/niche. There are two ways to solve this:

1. Invent content that gives purpose to a frame's niche.
2. Improve the frame or weapon so it's "viable" in current content.

I consider myself someone who tries to defy the meta, not necessarily in a sense where I tolerate inefficient ways to play, but in a sense that I try to unearth a niche to fit unpopular frames and weapons into. I've had a faint belief that certain things are more viable than people let on, but I'm also not ignorant to frames and weapons that simply aren't good enough.

I think the reality is that most players play efficiently, but they want to use a frame or weapon they identify with like Hydroid or Hespar and try their best to make them work despite their weaknesses. The frustration comes when you want to use one thing, but it just holds you back. This is a restriction on gameplay creativity.

 

Widespread viability is frankly in the business interests of DE, because this is not a game that needs to be mix maxed, only enjoyed the way you want to enjoy it. That's why they should balance it so there is relatively equal viability for weapons and frames. For the sake of player enjoyment, but also for the longevity of the game itself.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, jellyunicorn said:

Every new 2h scythe will suck, it's not like the hespar has bad stats, the stance just sucks and they have 0.4 follow through

Oh so it’s the 2h Nikana situation again.

[rainy]

16 hours ago, drnlmza said:

Doesn't this mostly show that the stance is awful, rather than the weapon? At the doubled levels, the damage values look acceptable, and the stance multipliers still don't stand out compared to the other stances tested. 

Yea we can blame the stance for now, just because the base stats are very decent, but it's a bit of both.

[DrivaMain]

The Stance feels very good to play. Free movement forward combo is the main selling point. The biggest letdown of this weapon is the 0.4 follow through. This low follow through is a too much in opinion. 

What I do find irritating about this weapon is the inconsistency between the weapon's length and melee range. This is the hespar with a base range of 2.80 meters.

Now, this is the wolf sledge with a base range of 3.10 meters.

 

Both pictures are taken and cropped in 1080p to make it consistent. You can see the hespar is very similar to the wolf sledge is size. In my eyes, the hespar is longer, but others may differ. How and why the wolf sledge, having a similar length or slightly shorter compared to the hespar, has a 30 centimeter longer range than the hespar? I want consistency here, could DE at least slightly increase the range to 3.10-3.20 meters?

[Grimlock_51]

En 5/5/2022 a las 7:27, Kaotyke dijo:

Isnt META, so its terrible, I imagine.

Try fight an enemy lvl200+ with Hespar on SP.
Btw it takes an eternty to farm at last can be a little better, the Vitrica it's twice better and is more easy to get it

[Joezone619]

I love the idea of two-handed scythes... the hespar just looks horrible IMO so i likely wont use it.