Idk why de does this...

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

So I noticed recently that many warframes released recently are either super good or underwhelming. It's funny because Xaku was underwhelming but was buffed, and now Yareli, Caliban, and Gyre are all meh but never got buffed.

I understand if they were having trouble and stuff and didn't know what exactly to do to those frames, but when your community is pumping out hundreds of suggestions on how to make them good it's just silly that DE isn't doing some of them.

The easiest thing they could do is simply increase modifiers: 

Add % based damage to Caliban, make the sentient allies shoot lasers and scale off of enemy levels, make his passive stack with adaptation.

Make Yareli's 4 do actual damage, make merulina do 90% damage reduction (which every other frame utilizes), and add primaries to merulina. 

Add armor (and maybe shield) strip to Gyre as an augument or something, continue to increase ability damage until satisfactory performance is attained.

It's really not hard to think of this stuff, so I seriously don't understand why they don't implement these sort of balance changes.

 

(I am perfectly fine with frames being weak on arrival, but they should then have numbers adjusted to reach at least steel path at minimum.)

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Couple of things.

1. What's your builds? Gyre is amazing and Caliban is good. Yareli is decent but she's more of a support/CC frame so she doesn't have a lot of power.

2.

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

(I am perfectly fine with frames being weak on arrival, but they should then have numbers adjusted to reach at least steel path at minimum.)

No, Steel Path is an extra mode and everything does not need to be balanced per steel path as it is optional.

3. Your balance != DE's balance. What you think may be good for the game is rarely what they think is good for the game.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Steel Path is an extra mode and everything does not need to be balanced per steel path as it is optional.

Steel Path may have originally been advertised as such, but it is now the most reliable source of Umbra Forma and the only source of the very powerful initial set of primary/secondary arcanes.  Steel Essence is a useful endgame currency besides the exclusives, as you can use it to complete a Prime Access on launch day with very little farming.  Just keep up with your incursions.

 

All frames should be relevant on the Steel Path.  I think Saryn is a good example of what I mean.  She doesn't clear entire rooms with the press of a button on the Steel Path, but her spores tick down the enemy's armor while also providing useful status procs for condition/gundition overload.  And her toxin damage allows her to trivialize Corpus.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

3 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

All frames should be relevant on the Steel Path

What is your definition of "relevant"? To never die? To be able to kill high level enemies with ease? Yareli procs slash which ticks away at enemy's health. Caliban stripes enemy's armor. Gyre takes away enemy's shields.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

6 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Steel Path may have originally been advertised as such, but it is now the most reliable source of Umbra Forma and the only source of the very powerful initial set of primary/secondary arcanes.  Steel Essence is a useful endgame currency besides the exclusives, as you can use it to complete a Prime Access on launch day with very little farming.  Just keep up with your incursions.

 

All frames should be relevant on the Steel Path.  I think Saryn is a good example of what I mean.  She doesn't clear entire rooms with the press of a button on the Steel Path, but her spores tick down the enemy's armor while also providing useful status procs for condition/gundition overload.  And her toxin damage allows her to trivialize Corpus.

With current state of warframe. Frames themselves are optional to Steel path, and the weapons do all the work. All frames are good in Steel path, in their own way, and shieldgating in common shared way, its comes down to personal preference. Some frames does amazing in squads, some perform way better in solo, so you control things as you need.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

What is your definition of "relevant"? To never die? To be able to kill high level enemies with ease? Yareli procs slash which ticks away at enemy's health. Caliban stripes enemy's armor. Gyre takes away enemy's shields.

That's a fair question, and it's hard to answer in a blanket statement.  To me, relevance is about standing out and being worth using when compared to the rest of the roster.  Yeah, Yareli's slash procs will eventually whittle enemies down.  But Hunter's Munitions, Garuda, and Ash all exist, and will do it a lot better.

 

Caliban, though, is definitely relevant.  I know some people don't like his summons, and yeah, his 1 is arguably the worst ability in the game.  But he's got debuffs, shield restoration, and permanent armor/shield strip.  That matters quite a bit on Steel Path.  His 4 won't do much damage past the star chart, but that's not what it's for.  He retains his relevance even as his damage falls off.

 

Gyre hasn't impressed me.  Her ability damage and CC are lackluster as you scale past the base star chart.  And her skills as a weapons platform are eclipsed (lol) by quite a few other members of the roster.  I love her sound design and aesthetics (when I'm not being blinded by her whirling skirt doing bullet jumps).  But she's pretty undertuned for anything past sortie level.  And to even get her you have to be well past sortie level.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

But she's pretty undertuned for anything past sortie level.  And to even get her you have to be well past sortie level

When crossplay becomes a thing well have to squad up cause I can take down steel path enemies with ease with her.

And technically you have to be able to take down 45-50 enemies. While you do have access to sortie before Zaramin, sortie is optional but be done anytime.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

When crossplay becomes a thing well have to squad up cause I can take down steel path enemies with ease with her.

And technically you have to be able to take down 45-50 enemies. While you do have access to sortie before Zaramin, sortie is optional but be done anytime.

Her pieces drop from bounties, which run into the sortie level range and are, at least in my opinion, significantly more challenging than most sorties in this game.  But if I may ask, are you using her more for supporting ranged weaponry or melee?

[Leqesai]

30 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Gyre hasn't impressed me.  Her ability damage and CC are lackluster as you scale past the base star chart.  And her skills as a weapons platform are eclipsed (lol) by quite a few other members of the roster.  I love her sound design and aesthetics (when I'm not being blinded by her whirling skirt doing bullet jumps).  But she's pretty undertuned for anything past sortie level.  And to even get her you have to be well past sortie level.

Did you mean to say "Gyre is undertuned for GRINEER past sortie level" ?

Gyre wrecks corpus and infested at any level.

[sunderthefirmament]

Just now, Leqesai said:

Did you mean to say "Gyre is undertuned for GRINEER past sortie level" ?

Armor and its absurd scaling are consistently a fly in the ointment.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , (XBOX)Upl0rdYT 说:

Caliban

meh but never got buffed.

You really need to learn how to mod and use frames OP. 

The problem with Caliban and Xaku used to be their ability strength requirement for 100% armor strip, and that comes with the issues of efficiency and hence energy economic, which leads to your limited option in companions and focus school.

With the new arcanes and focus 3.0, all of the above were no longer a problem, at all. Just helminth spectrorage on his 1 and slap spectrosiphon on him, and go ahead and spam 4 non-stop and crush everything in SP into a ball of wet tissue paper for your entertainment. 

I can't say for Yareli and Gyre, but saying Caliban is meh makes it sounds like you are the kind of person that also think Nyx is the C tier useless frame.

[Leqesai]

28 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Armor and its absurd scaling are consistently a fly in the ointment.

Yup. And we've been complaining about it for years but DE refuses to even acknowledge the problem. There are better ways of making Grineer tanky than through the piss-poor armor scaling they've done.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , sunderthefirmament 说:

Steel Path may have originally been advertised as such, but it is now the most reliable source of Umbra Forma and the only source of the very powerful initial set of primary/secondary arcanes.  Steel Essence is a useful endgame currency besides the exclusives, as you can use it to complete a Prime Access on launch day with very little farming.  Just keep up with your incursions.

 

All frames should be relevant on the Steel Path.  I think Saryn is a good example of what I mean.  She doesn't clear entire rooms with the press of a button on the Steel Path, but her spores tick down the enemy's armor while also providing useful status procs for condition/gundition overload.  And her toxin damage allows her to trivialize Corpus.

Com'on, you only use Saryn spore in Hydron and ESO. Everyone knows in SP you abuse her toxic slash and roar and DE weird damage formula and vaporize everything in front of you.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

imo i think they need to add more survivability to warframes in either stats or abilities. because there a quite a few and gyre is the perfect example, where they are great in the basic star chart, but anywhere beyond that and they start having a lot of survivability issues unless you do things like Gloom (shouldnt be a automatic required skill for survivability, but on many frames it is) or Shieldgating. shieldgating is fine, but you shouldnt be forced into it, same with Gloom.

[Dunkelheit]

Caliban is awesome due to armor strip alone and has a damage multiplier on top with added CC. Gyre is an amazing CC frame and a direct Corpus counter.

Both are absolutely viable in Steel Path and other hard content.

Adaptation already goes up to 90% dmg reduction, how should his passive add to that? 100% dmg reduction?

It is no problem that you seem to not really know what you are talking about, but the condescending way in which you speak about DE does not really make me explain things in a soft and understanding manner. But honestly, I am oldschool and I value defensive language and politeness, so maybe you fit into these times better where every posting reads more like an attack than constructive criticism.

[0_The_F00l]

I am not sure what one expects from frames when they say they should be steel path viable.

First and foremost , steel path is intended to be difficult and challenging , the fact that it can be cheesed is sad. That it can be cheesed with tools that DE themselves provided is sadder.

Should the near abusive combination of mechanics that make some frames overpowered really be used as a baseline reference?

I really cannot take any discussion with "it's so weak that it cannot survive steelpath by itself" kind of statement with any seriousness.

That's like saying , i should be able to live in a lavish mansion on minimum wage. It sounds very stupid to me.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Usually ideas or claims around good, bad, underwhelming, etc need context to be practical. A lot of people in general, can be bad at establishing context or using such terms in meaningful ways, beyond "this is how I personally feel, think or IMO" which is fine in a subjective, express your opinion sort on social media of way, but often not as good as more considerate context relevant assertions, with some sort of empirical backing, reasoning, that considers relevant factors/variables. 

Like do I personally find Yareli underwhelming and a bit disappointing compared to Xaku, Saryn, Protea? Yes. Do I find her unable to do Steel Path and lower content? Underwhelming in that sense? No, nor do I find her overwhelming. I find her whelming. If Person A bases good or bad in a Frame to Frame basis, and whatever criteria they want (how efficiently they kill, how fast they can complete a mission, how far they can scale to the games hardest Steel Path content), that can be very very different than Person B basing it on whether they can complete missions generally. 

To add complications, you will have some people who will make claims like "Only 3 Primary Weapons can handle Steel Path, only 10 Warframes are Steel Path capable, this is a problem that DE needs to address" but right from the beginning they are dealing with erroneous statements. 

With that in mind, you could have a million suggestions, but if the majority are working off flawed assumptions, highly subjective personal interpretations, ideas that fail to take into greater context, then the large amount of suggestions, is actually a massive detriment because it just creates noise, and now you need a lot of effort and resources and energy to filter out good suggestions from bad. 

As it turns out though, many people just want to express their random thoughts at a given time. If they really wanted their suggestions to have more weight, they'd commit to learning more about game development in general, DE's structure and implementation of changes, collecting more data and information, and how to better articulate and express potential desired changes, in context with consideration to limitations, other variables. Except that takes way more effort, time and energy and most people aren't that invested in their own ideas. Like I don't personally like Caliban. I think he is fine as far as, justifying his existence, since I know, despite my dislike of the Frames play style, some do like him, and I can do most of the games content with him... I know i have ideas on how I would make him better for myself to play, potentially more favourable to more players... Its far easier and more convenient to just play one of the 30 plus Warframes I do enjoy though... Rather than the effort I know it would take to try and "fix" them. 

[kapn655321]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Gyre

The only, "Meh," thing about Gyre is she's literally bugged, and her 3 ceases to function in multiplayer.

If it weren't for that she'd be outrageously good.. OP even. When a single shot from my Viper wraith wipes a hallway for multiple 20k dmg instances, that's a crazy powerful frame.

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Yup. And we've been complaining about it for years but DE refuses to even acknowledge the problem. There are better ways of making Grineer tanky than through the piss-poor armor scaling they've done.

Really, it's not just the scaling, it's how it's combatable - or, specifically, isn't. It doesn't degrade when you deal damage, for example. Gotta use specific abilities or weapon elements to even start on that. And if your Warframe doesn't have those elements or abilities, tough luck.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

(I am perfectly fine with frames being weak on arrival, but they should then have numbers adjusted to reach at least steel path at minimum.)

Is there any level hidden after SP? Raising frames to SP means frame will just, more or less, melt everything. That's not game.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

It's really not hard to think of this stuff, so I seriously don't understand why they don't implement these sort of balance changes.

Raising damage (or stuffs) is easy. That doesn't make frame better out of the box. Frame needs "something more". Like Pablo said in the interview with Brozine (something like this):

Quote

I don't want game to be monotone e.g. using one ability. I want players to use different stuffs (abilities).

 

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

1. What's your builds? Gyre is amazing

Her kit as whole is great (tested it against corrupted heavy gunners and it kills them someone quickly).

I wonder if you tested it in SP.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Yareli is decent but she's more of a support/CC frame so she doesn't have a lot of power.

Her 1st is pretty good CC but her 4th is horrible. Aquablades are very good against enemies that doesn't have status immunities. Roar, viral/heat and every Greener dies (maybe not Eximus).

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

No, Steel Path is an extra mode and everything does not need to be balanced per steel path as it is optional.

This. I'm completely sick of hearing people wanting melt SP without doing too much.

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

3. Your balance != DE's balance. What you think may be good for the game is rarely what they think is good for the game.

I wonder what kind of balance DE has in mind. Some abilities literally melt everything (Xaku's GoL). Other abilities might need some help but they are still powerful (Yareli/Aquablades needs stuffs like Roar, strength, viral/heat). Some abilities are pretty useless (e.g. Sevagoth 1/2 doesn't do too much for enemies unless they are close). Some abilities require external help so you had to turn them on/off constantly (Caligan's Razor gyre needs armor strip of 4th).

9 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Gyre takes away enemy's shields.

Wait... how?

9 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Caliban, though, is definitely relevant.  I know some people don't like his summons, and yeah, his 1 is arguably the worst ability in the game.  But he's got debuffs, shield restoration, and permanent armor/shield strip.  That matters quite a bit on Steel Path.  His 4 won't do much damage past the star chart, but that's not what it's for.  He retains his relevance even as his damage falls off.

About 2nd ability: how much strength do you need for him to be SP good? His 2nd (debuff) is very weak. I had some Arbitration with Strength boost + my strength. I think it was something around 300%. At that point I've seen change (increase of damage). I'm not sure sure how it's relevant in SP.

Shield restoration doesn't work half of time. I can spawn Sentient then 1 second later it stops restoring shield. Or it teleports (and stops restoring shield). Your mileage may vary.

9 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Her pieces drop from bounties, which run into the sortie level range and are, at least in my opinion, significantly more challenging than most sorties in this game. 

It depends on what you are running. With good levels they are much easier than Caliban's Namer bounties. Only problem I had with Z.bounties is very horrible RNG (weeks without single drop).

5 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Adaptation already goes up to 90% dmg reduction, how should his passive add to that? 100% dmg reduction?

Faster adaptation? Adaptation ads 10% per proc. Caliban's passive + Adaptation can add it to 15-20% per proc.

Caliban's passive should be same (or very similar) to Adaptation. Having 50% is not great.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

 

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Couple of things.

1. What's your builds? Gyre is amazing and Caliban is good. Yareli is decent but she's more of a support/CC frame so she doesn't have a lot of power.

2.

No, Steel Path is an extra mode and everything does not need to be balanced per steel path as it is optional.

3. Your balance != DE's balance. What you think may be good for the game is rarely what they think is good for the game.

 

10 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

With current state of warframe. Frames themselves are optional to Steel path, and the weapons do all the work. All frames are good in Steel path, in their own way, and shieldgating in common shared way, its comes down to personal preference. Some frames does amazing in squads, some perform way better in solo, so you control things as you need.

 

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am not sure what one expects from frames when they say they should be steel path viable.

First and foremost , steel path is intended to be difficult and challenging , the fact that it can be cheesed is sad. That it can be cheesed with tools that DE themselves provided is sadder.

Should the near abusive combination of mechanics that make some frames overpowered really be used as a baseline reference?

I really cannot take any discussion with "it's so weak that it cannot survive steelpath by itself" kind of statement with any seriousness.

That's like saying , i should be able to live in a lavish mansion on minimum wage. It sounds very stupid to me.

Ok I get what you all are saying about things not having to be "steel path viable" but you all literally forgot that 

Steel path, arbitrations, zariman, and now presumably veilbreaker all hit around level 100. At the very least, this is the type of content that all frames should be able to do, as all frames are advertised to do as such. 

I understand Caliban is fine, I literally asked for his passive to be improved and for the sentients to scale better, and for something to be done about that stupid tornado move. Nothing wrong with him.

I literally made a post about Gyre that literally devolved into everyone trashing her..... 

(I'm not kidding literally like every single person said she sucked and then like 2 people arguing somehow started talking about how Yareli was a better frame).  

I didn't even mention her survivability problems in this current post, all I asked was for her to have armor strip as a part of her kit instead of removing abilities via helminth or using operator.

Yareli....

Ah yes, Yareli....

The average in a sea of professionals....

That's Yareli.

Her 1 is fine. Merulina has sub par damage reduction, limits your loadout, and is thought by a lot of people to be finicky to use. Aquablades does decent damage with the augument. And her 4 falls off pretty quickly. 

I only asked for her to have the normal 90% damage reduction every other defensive ability has, primaries on merulina, and damage on her 4. Don't tell me you use Yareli and think that wouldn't make her much better.

(Also I replied a little late because I tried typing this reply and failed like 3 times because the site logged me out while I was typing it lol).

 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

About 2nd ability: how much strength do you need for him to be SP good? His 2nd (debuff) is very weak. I had some Arbitration with Strength boost + my strength. I think it was something around 300%. At that point I've seen change (increase of damage). I'm not sure sure how it's relevant in SP.

I have 207% strength on my Caliban.  I think 200% is the breakpoint for the full defense strip on the 4.  This means I have a 72% damage vulnerability debuff on the 2.  But in my experience, very few enemies actually need more vulnerability after you've stripped their defenses with the 4, so I don't use his 2 very often at all.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Ok I get what you all are saying about things not having to be "steel path viable" but you all literally forgot that 

Steel path, arbitrations, zariman, and now presumably veilbreaker all hit around level 100. At the very least, this is the type of content that all frames should be able to do, as all frames are advertised to do as such. 

I understand Caliban is fine, I literally asked for his passive to be improved and for the sentients to scale better, and for something to be done about that stupid tornado move. Nothing wrong with him.

I literally made a post about Gyre that literally devolved into everyone trashing her..... 

(I'm not kidding literally like every single person said she sucked and then like 2 people arguing somehow started talking about how Yareli was a better frame).  

I didn't even mention her survivability problems in this current post, all I asked was for her to have armor strip as a part of her kit instead of removing abilities via helminth or using operator.

Yareli....

Ah yes, Yareli....

The average in a sea of professionals....

That's Yareli.

Her 1 is fine. Merulina has sub par damage reduction, limits your loadout, and is thought by a lot of people to be finicky to use. Aquablades does decent damage with the augument. And her 4 falls off pretty quickly. 

I only asked for her to have the normal 90% damage reduction every other defensive ability has, primaries on merulina, and damage on her 4. Don't tell me you use Yareli and think that wouldn't make her much better.

(Also I replied a little late because I tried typing this reply and failed like 3 times because the site logged me out while I was typing it lol).

 

Nothing wrong with requesting improvements and highlighting issues, 

But expecting all frames to be on the same level irrespective of the content is also unrealistic , different frames sing to different playstyles.

A spanner can act as a hammer in a pinch , but you should ideally use an actual hammer if you can.

It's too bad most of the content in the game is like nails.

Steel path and arbitrations are both a little out of the way as compared to the remainder of the content.

They are not "level 100" , they have special mechanics that make them a lot higher from a challenge perspective .

Zariman (regular) is fine as the end of the current star chart as well as needing focus investment, zariman SP can be pretty punishing for the unprepared.

Sortie is where I think a good reference point should be.

[(PSN)magusat999]

14 hours ago, AntifreezeUnder0 said:

With current state of warframe. Frames themselves are optional to Steel path, and the weapons do all the work. All frames are good in Steel path, in their own way, and shieldgating in common shared way, its comes down to personal preference. Some frames does amazing in squads, some perform way better in solo, so you control things as you need.

Frost, Loki, Ember, Mag, Grendel good at Steel Path? Who knew?

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 hour ago, (PSN)magusat999 said:

Frost, Loki, Ember, Mag, Grendel good at Steel Path? Who knew?

If you build them right they are.