AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Lutesque]

The Problem is they Also have to Buff Resource Drop Rates and Affinity Gains and Restructure ESO, Survival and Disruption Missions to Compensate for the Decreased Enemy Numbers....

This Takes Work... Whiches was why they are just Blanket Nerfing AoE instead....

Don't even Get Me Started on the Wukong Changes.... Brain Dead AI Using your Ammo to Target Invulnerable Enemies.... Yeah We'll see how that plays out....

[_LotusPrime_]

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

 

theres a lot to unpack there but i'll save us both the time and the misery and just break it down to 3 points ok 

1- youre assuming when i play warframe all i do is spamming aoe weapons , thats not true and although theres nothing wrong with that its just youre making false equilavancy of 'someone defends something so they must be doing themselves that all the time' 
If i really like the niche effect of a single target i'll play it but like most of the time i bring whatevers needed for the mission and not losing my mind on if i upset the single target master race overlords in wf forums ..

2- i have no objection against DE's newly adopted philosophy of lets make the game more interactive , the problem is the game is still very easy AND  a number game at its core and unless they change that this approach could maybe salvage latest contents they make , a new player is still subjected to braindead grineer behaviour with their hit scan missiles 
so the problem is a bit nuanced

3- The truth is the advertisement of warframe for i dont know 5 plus years was that you can be very fast and have super space ninja powers in space or just powerful in general , the time when DE's reveneu popped was at the start of their first open world , not before when you guys had dark sectors with corridor shooter , some vets love it but the truth is power creep draws in f* ton of players cuz not much games give you this amount of power while maintaning  a 3d action game status , so youre wrong on that simply 

welp , i couldve kept my response a bit shorter , i really dont like giving long responses to bad faith arguers but there you have it i guess have fun

[Tiltskillet]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I just realized there’s going to be a bit of a surge in AOE use after the changes drop with all the people testing out how well it works.

Hope DE isn’t deliberately setting things up to “justify” those potential nerfs they were considering.

Some people will do this.   Just as many or more will believe those saying "AoE is dead" without questioning it for themselves.  Some won't buy into that, but will be eager to try out 3x headshots for a while.

Most will just keep doing what they're doing.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

Personally i'm very excited to use shotguns again since I love punch through as a stat and this just buffs that quite significantly.

So we play different game in Warframe.

I feel shotgun is annoying against game controller stick. I don't give endo to shotgun mods. 

This is why we have different opinion.

[BansheePrime]

all the =/= 2

[Mieo_Mio]

Stalhta: decent magazine with two aoe shots per mag. it will be interesting to see how this is impacted. It's one I use pretty often aside from the Kuva Quartakk.

[MekaDovah]

21 hours ago, Voltage said:

This is the thing DE is tackling. Their planned changes also represent this perspective. Blowing things up is cool and always been a thing in this game. It's when you're allowed to optimize the gameplay out of playing that hurts the game long-term. Many players seek this level of efficiency, and everyone who does has their own reasons, but it's a major factor.

Is it AoE alone that reaches this level of optimization, or a combination of other factors? And if it's true, why do they keep introducing new weapons that allow us to do more after nerfing previous ones (Laetum)? It doesn't add up.

This concern also doesn't really address the one I raised: why people are aiming for that efficiency in the first place. I do agree that if all the gameplay is "optimized out" that is indeed a bad thing, but if we go the other extreme that many players are unable to play at all due to the overwhelming opposition, that's no good either. It's just a choice between an idle game that bores people and a game with severe accessibility issues that locks people out. People end up not playing the game either way. Reasons might be different, but they don't matter if the problem persists regardless.

I also don't agree that AoE alone is actually that bad. What I've heard was possible with Celestial Twin is one thing, but that's Celestial Twin, not AoE in general. Player input is still required. Nuking 20 guys in the corridor in front of you with a rocket launcher doesn't nuke the 20 guys in the corridor behind you. No AoE weapon I ever used made the game so easy that it became an idle game. 

Maybe DEs efforts in Veilbreaker will help mitigate things in a balanced way, but a lot of the talk around here is still too "all or nothing" sounding to be helpful, I feel.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

9 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

2- i have no objection against DE's newly adopted philosophy of lets make the game more interactive , the problem is the game is still very easy AND  a number game at its core and unless they change that this approach could maybe salvage latest contents they make , a new player is still subjected to braindead grineer behaviour with their hit scan missiles 
so the problem is a bit nuanced

 

Repeating boring farming and looting requires braindead actually. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Not far enough in my opinion. If DE wants to unfairly punish us AOE users, with these unrealistic harsh and heavy handed nerfs that make killing these hordes of enemies impossible. Scientifically and statistically impossible. Then us AOE only enthusiasts should leave the game, to teach them a lesson. Leave the game for those weird players who use Phantasma, Tenora Prime, Quellor, Trumna, Nataruk, Felarx, Phenmor, Lateum, Fulmin, Cedo, Kuva Nukor, Nikana Prime, Tenet Arca Plasma, Tenet Flux Rifle, Stahlta, Reaper Prime, Pennant, Tenet Exec, Aeolak, Tenet Cycron, Synapse, Nagantaka Prime, Bubonico, Kuva Chakkurr, Astilla Prime, Kuva Hek, Strun Prime, Exergis, Epitaph, Stropha, Redeemer Prime, Vastilok, Lesion... **continues listing all the weapons I use that can kill hordes** ... **checks notes** the same AOE that is getting nerfed... will apparently still be able to kill hordes? Hang on, is this correct? 

Ah well, regardless... if DE wants to be this petty and childish, with their over reaction, then we should be the bigger people, and quit the game. Even though there is a lot of new stuff to look forward to, AOE will still be great, lets cut off our noses, to send a message. What kind of message? I am not sure, am experiencing sudden blood loss, and my vision is obscured. Maybe I shouldn't have cut off my nose?!? Whose to say.

 

[Tyreaus]

49 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Hope DE isn’t deliberately setting things up to “justify” those potential nerfs they were considering.

It's an unnecessarily complicated plan, if so. They can simply fudge numbers if they really wanted and say the changes didn't work. Or just go ahead with those nerfs anyway from the starting gate. Trying to justify that with a usage spike - which everyone would notice anyway - seems like it takes extra steps just to make the strategy more obvious. Not making MI6 proud with that.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Mieo_Mio:

Stalhta: decent magazine with two aoe shots per mag. it will be interesting to see how this is impacted. It's one I use pretty often aside from the Kuva Quartakk.

i just tried it. but aren't they rather weak weapons?
lvl 190 heavy gunner eximus go down far too slowly. even Tenet Cycron with Cascadia Flare does a lot more damage.

[Tyreaus]

You can keep the hordes and remove the incentives to kill them. A number of horde shooters do just that: the horde is an obstacle in, say, L4D, not a loot piñata.

[taiiat]

pretty much. dang, who's surprised that Killing Enemies in large Numbers is common when the game opposes you with large Numbers of generally individually insignificant Enemies.
i must write a Letter to the Governor, for this incredible discovery!

as the other option is like uh, ending up like Destiny where Players generally Kill as few Enemies as possible as Killing Enemies is relatively slow and the only success is from completing the Mission in its entirety, not Enemies you may or may not Kill along the way.

which uh, i don't know about anyone else but that's the worst possible scenario. to incentivize Players to avoid bothering to Kill Enemies in your Combat focused game, and instead just run past them.

[MutoManiac]

If they are going to make missions take longer, they should give us a higher drop rate for rare rewards. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

2 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

lets make the game more interactive

But give no incentive.

I think this is the most important issue, in that there's no real reason besides personal choice to play ST or focus on pure precision headshots.

Killing ten enemies in 5 seconds with a Fully Buffed Knell Prime with careful CC and consistent head shots has the same results as killing them in 1 with either an AoE weapon or attack.

So far the only Frame to do this is Harrow with Thurible, and that's one Frame where even Pablo states that he might have make it too advance so you can't even say that's the baseline to work for.

Either item drops or affinity or anything to give you an extra pat on the back. But when the game is, kill massive amounts of enemies, and you the same reward with either a hammer or a knife it's a bigger problem.

Although considering how people didn't give a S#&$ when melee stealth a whole mission was ruined with Overguard, because they didn't give a S#&$ played their way and it wasn't bothered, I shouldn't be surprised.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

Don't see how this isn't gonna be a nerf to non-AoE unless they have a bunch of override values. As per the Devstream 163 Overview,

Quote

Ammo drop rates have been halved, but the amount of ammo received has been doubled.

Burston Prime had an ammo pickup value of 80, which is presumably the default value for primary rifles; Current rifle ammo pickups give 60 ammo on pickup.
That's a 33.3% increase, so no doubling there.

Currently, non-heavy units drop rifle ammo 26.29% of the time. So that's an expected value of 15.77 rifle ammo per enemy currently.
Units drop some type of ammo 70% of the time, so come Veilbreaker, they'll drop ammo 35% of the time. Assuming this is evenly split between primary and secondary (i.e. primary ammo drops 17.5% of the time, and secondary ammo drops 17.5% of the time), this means an expected value of 14 rifle ammo per enemy.
Not a significant nerf, likely not a huge change, but not that inspiring.

DE has historically strayed away from looking at each weapon individually instead of just making broad sweeps to classes, so it feels inevitable that some stuff is gonna get swept under the rug. They even say that

Quote

Certain weapons will have “override” values, changing how much Ammo you can get from a single pickup. This mostly applies to AoE weapons

So I don't expect much balancing within a class beyond very extreme outliers like Kohm.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

Basically, this is looting and collecting  game. 

If you want go to Saturn Proxima, you have to clear many nodes, it could be two-digit number. If you are single-played console tenno, it asks us to clear *N times. And you have to repeat this whole process many times to get a full 60% kuva weapon.

 

If your tarket is in C rotation with 6% probability, you have to repeat that boring mission 20 times, 30 times or more, it could be three-digit unless you're lucky.

 

If you prepare Baro Kiteer, you have to repeat Void Fissures 2-digit or even 3-digit times.

 

And else more...

 

The game system requires us to repeat as many as possible no matter how bore or annoying the mission is, so many tennos use the fastest way(mostly AOE), but devs try to block it and develope new more terrible ways to loot.

 

Currently, one of the fastest solution is Kuva Jarr and some warframes. I don't feel I have to agree with Dev's nerf plan.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Not far enough in my opinion. If DE wants to unfairly punish us AOE users, with these unrealistic harsh and heavy handed nerfs that make killing these hordes of enemies impossible. Scientifically and statistically impossible. Then us AOE only enthusiasts should leave the game, to teach them a lesson. Leave the game for those weird players who use Phantasma, Tenora Prime, Quellor, Trumna, Nataruk, Felarx, Phenmor, Lateum, Fulmin, Cedo, Kuva Nukor, Nikana Prime, Tenet Arca Plasma, Tenet Flux Rifle, Stahlta, Reaper Prime, Pennant, Tenet Exec, Aeolak, Tenet Cycron, Synapse, Nagantaka Prime, Bubonico, Kuva Chakkurr, Astilla Prime, Kuva Hek, Strun Prime, Exergis, Epitaph, Stropha, Redeemer Prime, Vastilok, Lesion... **continues listing all the weapons I use that can kill hordes** ... **checks notes** the same AOE that is getting nerfed... will apparently still be able to kill hordes? Hang on, is this correct? 

Ah well, regardless... if DE wants to be this petty and childish, with their over reaction, then we should be the bigger people, and quit the game. Even though there is a lot of new stuff to look forward to, AOE will still be great, lets cut off our noses, to send a message. What kind of message? I am not sure, am experiencing sudden blood loss, and my vision is obscured. Maybe I shouldn't have cut off my nose?!? Whose to say.

2016... No aoe broken Sh*t...  But nobody blames you after all you didn't play warframe in those days so you don't know.

Do you know what the difference is? that at that time people still cared about strategy and well today it's shooting at the ground and killing everything
Not to mention that Helminth, some augments, and some crazy dps warframes don't exist at the time.

Personally I've always been against buffing stuff only to do a lot of damage. The best they can do is nerf things so there are no whiners demanding difficulty and then demanding power when it's "hard".

[ant99999]

Look, the only thing in these coming changes that I can at least remotely consider a nerf is ammo changes.

Do you really think being able to shoot from your beloved Zarr a couple times less is "blocking" using it? It's not even worth the effort of posting this here!

That isn't to mention that there are, right now, players who don't use AoE, and believe it or not - they are playing just fine, doesn't seem a "new terrible ways to loot" to me.

[trst]

Oh no, you'll have to occasionally switch to your secondary until you refill your ammo. How horrifying!

If only we has something like an AOE weapon that took zero ammo and had better scaling than our guns! Or some kind of void powered space magic we could employ to gather enemies, generate more ammo, weaken enemies, buff our damage, or even to outright kill them with!

/s

 

Seriously though at worst you'll be seeing a matter of seconds added to your mission timers. If losing that much time is detrimental then you should reconsider how your spending your time in the first place. There is no reason to nerf spawns just because some people don't know how to cope with changes that we don't even have the specifics of yet.

And even then you still have a plethora of AOE options that are still as overpowered and efficient as ever without them taking up a primary slot.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

Do you know what the difference is? that at that time people still cared about strategy and well today it's shooting at the ground and killing everything

 

I don't think you appreciate the amount of strategy required in being able to shoot your feet with AOE. Some Warframes don't even have feet, like Wisp, Ember Deluxe, Caliban, etc its impossible to find the feet and thus the ground is harder to find too! So its like, you have to do all sorts of complex maths! 

Then you have to log in for 400 days, or pick a Warframe that won't suffer knock back or stagger. There are only a few. Then you have to start the mission itself. There are like over 100 Nodes, picking a mission is hard. Then you have to tilt the camera down, so you are shooting the ground and not the ceiling... though actually on some tilesets, that still works too, since the AOE is so big and some AOE has bomblets that drop and cause more explosions... but but... some tilesets are just the sky, so so... and then some enemies are really fast, and in large groups, like... gangs... these vicious roaming street gangs... they can ambush me when I am reloading. If you just stand still and reload, it makes it really easy for enemies to kill you, because they out number us, and they are vicious killers. 

If anything... AOE should be buffed! So that when no longer have to reload at all, and the fire rate is higher, and if you shoot up, the AOE blasts home in on enemy locations. I mean, if weapons like Cedo and Cyanex and Mesa have homing, aim bot features, why shouldn't the Kuva Zarr and Bramma! Why should they get to have all the fun! 

TL;DR DE is racist to AOE. Its the only answer that makes sense! 

[Tiltskillet]

52 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

If they are going to make missions take longer, they should give us a higher drop rate for rare rewards. 

If mission times were going to change dramatically, probably.  However average mission time at a given level must have gone down a lot in the last two years, and it's hard to imagine these very moderate nerfs are going to put us back to 2020.

 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If mission times were going to change dramatically, probably.  However average mission time at a given level must have gone down a lot in the last two years, and it's hard to imagine these very moderate nerfs are going to put us back to 2020.

 

 

 

At this rate, they should just give us the next Warframe for free, just for logging in! 

...

 

[Mazifet]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I don't think you appreciate the amount of strategy required in being able to shoot your feet with AOE. Some Warframes don't even have feet, like Wisp, Ember Deluxe, Caliban, etc its impossible to find the feet and thus the ground is harder to find too! So its like, you have to do all sorts of complex maths! 

Then you have to log in for 400 days, or pick a Warframe that won't suffer knock back or stagger. There are only a few. Then you have to start the mission itself. There are like over 100 Nodes, picking a mission is hard. Then you have to tilt the camera down, so you are shooting the ground and not the ceiling... though actually on some tilesets, that still works too, since the AOE is so big and some AOE has bomblets that drop and cause more explosions... but but... some tilesets are just the sky, so so... and then some enemies are really fast, and in large groups, like... gangs... these vicious roaming street gangs... they can ambush me when I am reloading. If you just stand still and reload, it makes it really easy for enemies to kill you, because they out number us, and they are vicious killers. 

If anything... AOE should be buffed! So that when no longer have to reload at all, and the fire rate is higher, and if you shoot up, the AOE blasts home in on enemy locations. I mean, if weapons like Cedo and Cyanex and Mesa have homing, aim bot features, why shouldn't the Kuva Zarr and Bramma! Why should they get to have all the fun! 

TL;DR DE is racist to AOE. Its the only answer that makes sense! 

Lol.

In all seriousness though, people are really overreacting. A bramma with primary merciless and ammo mutation is essentially infinite ammo, so when cutting ammo drops in half it would be very rare to run out of it. Plus, it isn't the only aoe weapon. Nerfing ammo might actually buff weapon diversity as less used aoe weapons like the tonkor and shedu will be just fine with ammo.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

15 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Look, the only thing in these coming changes that I can at least remotely consider a nerf is ammo changes.

Do you really think being able to shoot from your beloved Zarr a couple times less is "blocking" using it? It's not even worth the effort of posting this here!

That isn't to mention that there are, right now, players who don't use AoE, and believe it or not - they are playing just fine, doesn't seem a "new terrible ways to loot" to me.

You could join enjoying squad instead of fast-farming squad for void fissure, relic run whatever with blaming them. Also, you can play solo.