AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Did some of the destiny idiots start working at Warframe???  I quit destiny due to all the nerfing and tedious crap.  Nerfing AOE, Wukong, and limit ammo just means things take longer to complete.

 

Guess I'm done playing Warframe 

Correction: It means you actually have to play the game now and not afk while your clone nukes everything.

[Dunkelheit]

Please explain to me why this could not go into another of those "AOE" threads. Why create your own?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

this is most of the time why I'm glad DE doesn't take forum opinions seriously

self damage was crap, and was shot dead for good reason. no need to bring it back from the dead

Agreed. I do think self stagger should not have a way to be removed completely though. At the least, place the maximum reduction at 50%.

[TARINunit9]

10 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

First and foremost, that argument assumes you actually are doing more damage, which wasn't always true in Warframe's history. Taking your logic literally, the 2018 Maiming Strike meta should have dealt self-damage, and Saryn should be just murdering herself for existing; conversely, the Lenz should have dealt no self-damage because it was never very good

But let's really get to the heart of the issue: self-damage is a mechanical + tactical skill consideration. And Warframe just... doesn't... reward or challenge mechanical skill. Like at all. If you can press the 1234 keys in sequence, then press spacebar while holding CTRL, you have all the mechanical skill you need. Everything else is just a gear check.

Doom games use self-damage to mitigate the rocket launcher's effectiveness because it deals the highest DPS¹ and has enemies (Pinkies and Revenants) specifically designed to get in your face to make it riskier to use. Conversely, the Cyberdemon is immune to his own rocket splash damage specifically because he is a braindead lump of code that can't account for intervening targets or terrain; in fact his weapon is just as much a hazard to his own subordinates as it is to the player, which the player is encouraged to abuse -- creating another risk/reward for the player

Warframe doesn't have any of this. The highest DPS comes from your mods, not your weapons. Grineer Butchers and Corpus Prodmen are far too weak to be a tactical hazard with explosive weapons the same way Revenants were, and the Scorpions and Shockwave Moas have a different role in melee (displacing the player). Enemies are immune to friendly fire, removing all the risk/reward interactions the Cyberdemon had going

For self-damage to accomplish anything good, Warframe would have to be structured very differently

1. outside the BFG9000, which is overpowered on purpose

[MutoManiac]

I say put in friendly fire, that should make people careful… what could go wrong? Kill enough team mates, get banned for a week. 😆

[Venus-Venera]

Gerade eben schrieb m_a_r_c_h_:

I say put in friendly fire, that should make people careful… what could go wrong? Kill enough team mates, get banned for a week. 😆

like in planetside2. after teamkill there is a kickvote. 🤦‍♂️

I'm going to create a bunch of new accounts with vpn and fake hardware ids and have a lot of fun.

[(XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon]

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

This is how Warframe is special and different from Destiny2, Division2, or any other shooters.

But DE nerfed melee mods, nerfed abilities by overguard, and will nerf AOE mods, but encourages killing so many mobs one by one with common guns.

DE devs must play Warframe with non-AOE guns and feel how much not proper common guns is in Warframe missions.

[JinzouningenX]

Guess i should've done some research before coming back.  So my favorite WF got "reworked". Actually came back just to only play world of fire Ember. Anyway, i read some thing about afk afk with it. as long as i played i never knew going afk with and ember was a thing. it was just pure fun running world on fire. Okay thats over and the way game development is (not just this game) its not coming back.

Someone somewhere loves the Ember rework. Hats off to ya. This game to me has always been so unique because of the powers. I'm posting only after playing as a new Ember for like 6 hours so far. I've tried to find the fun. I've been shooting a gun. You know like a crappy call of duty game or something.  I shoot a fire ball. okay that was ok i guess. I did the flame ring that radiates out. that like lowers armor? I decided it wasnt worth even trying to level the WF to unlock its number 4 meteor drop from the sky or whatever.

Anyway, lesson learned. Look before you leap, and i guess expect a game to radically change how one of its components works.  I'll check in in another 3 years. Jeez. What the heck.

[RichardKam]

19小时前 , Oorel 说:

I think getting hit with a given explosive weapons actual damage was absurd, and if self-damage was its own damage type limited to a set say 400 true damage or something akin to that AoE would be in a better place where we cant just spam explosions at our feet.

*Revenant and Nekros laughing hysterically*

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

It's not that this is wrong literally, but I think you're wrong in spirit.

Yes, we're supposed to be killing crowds. But how fast we kill the crowds is subject to game balance. Do you want killing crowds to become trivial? Because arguing against nerfs implies you want it to be trivial

[Uan91]

I use kuva zarr mostly in defense to make the mode enjoyable.

Without it the mode Is way too slow.

 

[AbyssalSerpent]

18 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

why are people even against self damage? there should be some amount of risk because you are doing more damage.

Because self annihilation was never fun. Self damage reducing mods (whose names I forget) did jack, because even with them reducing 99% of the damage taken you'd still get one-shotted even with a pretty tanky frame. The risk for getting one-shotted was too unreasonably high since very thin objects getting in the way, including other teammates, companions or NPCs randomly getting in your way would heavily increase your chance at getting one-shotted.

I see people commonly bring up shield gating will apparently protect you from getting one shotted. Yeah, here's the thing: shield gating won't do jack as it won't work if you're given a headshot or an explosive shot. Proof of that is that you try it on a Corpus unit or any other unit that has the luxury of shield gating, nearly all the time you can still one-shot them with a Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, Sporelacer or any other AoE weapon.

[Cerikus]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon said:

nerf AOE mods

They are only nerfing firestorm and fulmination which are absolutely unnecessary for most weapons.

If you have "PLAYED" the game until now, probably nothing will change for you. It seems that players with active playstyle will be almost unaffected by the changes.
If you have let the game "PLAY ITSELF", you will have to deal with the fact that DE don't want that playstyle in their game.

[Venus-Venera]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XBOX)Eye0fTyphoon:

Because Warframe is now TPS mass-massacre time-attack Hack&Slash. DE has made this game in this way.

This is how Warframe is special and different from Destiny2, Division2, or any other shooters.

But DE nerfed melee mods, nerfed abilities by overguard, and will nerf AOE mods, but encourages killing so many mobs one by one with common guns.

DE devs must play Warframe with non-AOE guns and feel how much not proper common guns is in Warframe missions.

they don't even play the game. they have no idea about balance or whatever.
coder staring at program code 8 hours a day. and project managers stare at mindless statistics.

that's why you can only laugh at their decisions. because there is no clue or logic.
they don't even read forums...

[(PSN)rexis12]

7 minutes ago, RichardKam said:

*Revenant and Nekros laughing hysterically*

Oh yeah I forgot about Nekros and Revenant, who's Specters/Thralls can and will block your shots.

Imagine, if you will, you dying because the ally Nekros on your team decides to use his ability.

And let's not forget about Nyx and her teleporting Simp.

I can't even count how many times an AoE shot was blocked by a Mind Control target teleporting into my face when I bullet jumped too far away, and think to myself "If I had died to that, it would have been extremely unfair."

[Venus-Venera]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb AbyssalSerpent:

shield gating won't protect you from getting one-shotted if you're given a headshot or an AoE shot.

don't forget dots. my volt with 850 health can't survive gas, fire or whatever without vaz dash on sp.
this is so ridiculous...

and if i want to play a game with aim skill etc then i would play pvp game! in warframe i want to chill and relax and not get frustrated with such nonsense.

[mycroft_]

18 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

DE doesn't take forum opinions seriously

You're right.

[colazen]

Headshots with a gamepad are torturous to me🤧

[gamingchair1121]

10 minutes ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

Proof of that is that you try it on a Corpus unit or any other unit that has the luxury of shield gating, nearly all the time you can still one-shot them with a Kuva Bramma, Kuva Zarr, Sporelacer or any other AoE weapon.

yeah because that's corpus shield gating. our shield gating would actually work against aoe because it negates damage during the shield gate instead of reducing the damage.

[ThommiX]

16 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

they don't even play the game. they have no idea about balance or whatever.
coder staring at program code 8 hours a day. and project managers stare at mindless statistics.

that's why you can only laugh at their decisions. because there is no clue or logic.
they don't even read forums...

You should watch latest devstream which proves everything you said completely wrong.

Have fun!

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

11 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What? Cacthmoons size was never changed , only its fall off distance

Back in 2020 or so, they changed the visual of the Catchmoon projectile. Gave it some tails and made it spin. Pretty sure it got a bit smaller in the process, at the very least visually so.
Viewing 2019-era video it definitely looks bigger, which matches my recollection.

[OniDax]

Warframe is a horde shooter, so of course players are going to use AOE. DE has designed the game like this. I'd love for Warframe to be a game that isn't based on AOE at all, but that means Warframe needs to be something other than a horde shooter. I want Warframe to be something other than a horde shooter, but DE doesn't know how to make something that isn't a horde shooter.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb ThommiX:

You should watch latest devstream which proves everything you said completely wrong.

Have fun!

that's exactly what you should do and finally read through the forum posts.

[ThommiX]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

that's exactly what you should do and finally read through the forum posts.

Nice picture of you! Still wont change you are utterly wrong!

Have fun!

[Voltage]

39 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes, we're supposed to be killing crowds. But how fast we kill the crowds is subject to game balance. Do you want killing crowds to become trivial? Because arguing against nerfs implies you want it to be trivial

I just discussed this with a friend as well who really enjoys where AoE gameplay has gone (old players all know there's always been a flavor of AoE in our major builds). I asked them a simple question.

Do you really enjoy the gameplay, or just reducing the time between loading into a mission and seeing an extraction/mission results screen?

I think many players who favor specifically playing this way are likely to admit that the game in between nuking entire tilesets at a time is not interesting to them anymore, but they are still stuck in the hamster wheel of rewards, dopamine, FOMO, and sunk cost fallacy about the game. I know it's a broad stroke to apply to many opinions that want the current AoE situation to be untouched, but I feel this same observation was made by Brozime in his Devstream 163 overview. He talks about how the situation is heavily influenced by the recycling of defense/mobile defense objectives. When you introduce a mission like Void Flood, Void Cascade, or Disruption, things like Wuclone abuse or random AoE weapon spam just aren't as compelling, especially in the scaling department, because other options will actually be better suited for the objective.