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- Is something disrupting others from playing in their playstyle?


(XBOX)ONI LawIiet

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As somebody who ran the Wukong Bramma loadout for a long time... I did it largely to point out what sh###y gameplay design it was, and how boringly easy the game has become.  When like 3 weapons in the game overpower literally all the other weapons to the point where you often literally can't get ANY kills in the mission without running one of them... it's EXTREMELY lopsided, and will make people feel like there are only a few 'correct' picks for their weapon.

Variety is good, and forcing people to either have no game to play, or have no variety, or not play coop... is pretty counter to what the developers want the game to be.

If you don't want to play the game that the developers want to develop then like... you don't have to play the game that apparently you don't like. 🤷‍♂️

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On 2022-09-09 at 11:47 PM, Lutesque said:

- snip-

Glad to see you are still writing in the same smug passive-agressive way, while avoiding the problem with whataboutism and making it obvious you have no knowledge about how a widespread meta can put the game health in danger if not checked in time.

See, months ago when I suggested that a way to fix the AoE meta was to change their ammo economy (which was exactly what happened, surprising, I know!), it was obvious you only cared about "your" fun, using the old "just don't use it lol emoji" rabble I see from meta slaves.

"I'M having fun. If YOU are not having fun, leave the squad" (Why the ones affected should leave?)
"If other players don't want AoE weapons, they shouldn't use them" (They already didn't)
"If you want to have fun, go solo" (Even though the AoE user is the one that obviously doesn't needs or wants teammates)
"Just recruit a squad" (Yes, I will take my time to recruit other 3 players that don't want to use AoE weapons every time I want to play a mission, simple)
"If you want any resemblance of balance, that means you want to ruin MY fun. Why don't you ignore MY fun? Its easy to ignore MY fun, just don't engage with anything related to MY fun" (Your fun is more important even if it detracts from other players experience)

But please, tell me again how I'm wrong because "I could just use other weapon", "Play solo/Recruit a squad", "Play other game", "I am being selfish because I want to dictate how other players should play", "Let people have their fun", "But what about that other meta that also existed/exists", "You could just ignore everything"

¯\_(👁️💋👁️)_/¯

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On 2022-09-09 at 8:00 PM, trst said:

And why can't the players who're already soloing the mission go play solo instead of forcibly removing gameplay from three other players?

It's very simple; if someone is going to join a co-op mission they should be wanting to play with other players. If some are going to join co-op and steal the gameplay from everyone else then they aren't there for co-op. And if those players refuse to put themselves into solo then the only solution is to try and remove/reduce their ability to steal gameplay.

So much this! And I’m a Wukong loving AOE player. Ya gotta be considerate in pugs and it’s 99% great for me except when I forget to switch to solo for relic cracking and there is always some OP dude who is faster. I don’t care, but do you nerf things overboard for the few problematic missions or leave it alone? If I was DE, I would have left it alone.

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A little "braindead" gameplay here and there was a good thing for many players as far as accessibility goes. Not everyone has the same capabilities, and oftentimes to no fault of their own.

Also for missions you've done a million times, but still want to do for whatever the reward is, it can be nice to be carried by one of these "braindead" nukers.

This game has always had this gameplay style embedded in it. It's nice to just relax and press a button and reap the rewards every now and then. Other times it's more fun being engaged, aiming, using a more complex frame or party of frames where synergy of abilities and strategic use of them matters. I was never upset when someone carried. There's always the next mission, or solo, or w/e if you're looking for engaging gameplay. However, the meta did become dominated by certain AOE weapons and it became so frequent as to become comical. They deserved to be nerfed in some respect. Also though, some missions originally were adjusted for this ability to nuke and to nuke quickly (there are still ways to nuke ofc). Like ESO, certain Steel Path missions, etc. They may need another look imo, though I'm just returning and testing out the changes so can't really speak too much to that yet.

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Am 10.9.2022 um 01:53 schrieb (XBOX)ONI LawIiet:

how did this situation come to pass?

if you group, you know it's possible for someone to carry, why group? 

why?

what cannot be solved with friends only, solo, forming a group, looking through clans, etc. or getting over the fact that that yeah people kill things in warframe.

what is your core problem.

why does someone clearing the room ahead of you make you mad to the point of desiring fundamental gameplay alterations above ALL other options or rational thoughts before you?

You are not interested in a discussion, you want to get your point across.

Never forget, discussions are for making it right, not for making it right for you.

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So we start here:

On 2022-09-09 at 4:42 PM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

EDIT: not about the contents of the patch.

And then by the end of the post we're here:

On 2022-09-09 at 4:42 PM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

fighting for kills? how fast you clear a room? that's just gameplay and people being salty. well just use other guns or warframe abilities (thermal sunder) to once again clear a room, that's your gameplay, if people find warframes gameplay disruptive solo or dont play. 

It seems to be very much about the contents of this patch.  Which is fine, but we'll be able to have a better dialogue if we're honest about what we're discussing.

 

On 2022-09-09 at 4:42 PM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

why are a loud minority allowed to dictate game design to masses they will never know or play with because they refuse to solo? 

Genuine question, do you have data proving that the reason these changes happened was a "loud minority"?  Because DE has a butt-ton of actual analytics and play data, and while they have a history of listening to their community, they do not have a history of doing exactly what their community asks for.  If you check the patch notes, they go into detail about why they made the changes.  This isn't something they changed on a whim, they put a lot of thought into it over no less than several months.

 

On 2022-09-09 at 4:42 PM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

what's their playstyle? why are they mad?

With respect, it doesn't seem like you're genuinely engaging with what DE write about this, because it's explained in the text that you partially quoted.  Here's the full text:

Quote

3) “Is this playstyle disruptive to other players?” 
A majority of sessions are played co-op, so ideally everybody gets a chance to play. We’ve reached a point where players are asking us to change these weapons, because they leave so little for others to do. 

I feel like this pretty clearly explains the issue.  I get that you're not a fan of the changes and that it's been upsetting for you, and that's a bummer; I don't want to say anything that dismisses those feelings or what you're going through.  But I do want to encourage you to give this update a try; you may find that it's not as bad as you thought!  I initially assumed my Kuva Zarr would be unusable, but I was surprised to find that if I adjusted my playstyle a bit it still works great!  And others are finding many interesting solutions to allow them to still have their boom-boom time, just in a slightly different way than before.  So don't despair!  Maybe take a few days off to cool down if that's what you need, and then come back when you feel you've got the patience to explore some solutions.  Wishing you the best, Tenno!

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...Mesa's Peacemakers got nerfed for promoting passive play, in multiple waves of ways, at one point you pressed 4 and that was it, Mesa would just shoot everything in LoS, range? what's that? Then they nerfed her to only shoot stuff directly in sight instead of shooting to the side and behind, people just automated the spinning, so they added the need to hold the trigger, people automated that, so now Mesa has her current set up of ramping damage and decreasing area of damage.

 

Greedy Pull got the entire loot system changed so Mag could no longer pull loot onto allies after multiple waves of nerfs to Greedy Pull specifically failed to stop the playstyle of "have Greedy Pull pull all the loot onto Mesa", also got Draco changed from a defense to the current Interception.

 

Last time there was an AoE Launcher Meta it was specifically a Tonkor meta because Tonkor had self damage capped at 50, which was basically irrelevant. The nerf that got was removing the uncapping.

 

There was always going to be AoE nerfs and the approach of nerfing ammo instead of damage or the base AoE means AoE has hardly changed for people who use it on clumps instead of on everything including the terrain, while mostly dealing with the people who used AoE on terrain. Quite frankly, nothing I use runs out of ammo more often now than it did before the changes.

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1 hour ago, MobyTheDuck said:

¯\_(👁️💋👁️)_/¯

I'm pretty sure that user is going to reply to you, but only have the reply post selectively slide into this thread 3 days later so that you most likely already forgot about the thread and its content, in order to delay any potential replies from you...

... I know, because that's exactly what happens to me every time there's a post from that particular user.

... And its going to happen again, just to prove my point.

 

WhimsicalRespectfulCheetah-size_restrict ... But, wow, this thread has so much useless noise in it...

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On 2022-09-10 at 2:49 AM, BLI7Z said:

So, you are actively avoiding to answer the question. I didn't watch the clip you are talking about. I just saw that a lot in the past in random players. 

Also, it isn't personal, I am just describing what I perceive by your lack of a clear and direct answer to something specific. 

I don't understand that people like you are mad that they join RANDOM PUBLIC group with 3 other people and then they are surprised that those 3 other players are not catering to your specific game play and then you get mad lol.

 

Dude if you are unhappy with random groups then play with same minded people who will follow your specific game play (e.g. wait for you to do those head shots with sniper rifle 🙄). Go to recruit chat and make you own group.

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On 2022-09-10 at 1:42 AM, (XBOX)ONI LawIiet said:

is it hard solo? in that case YOU SHOULD NOT BE THERE if you cannot solo and group, and they carry you, say thank you.

I just wonder why you are in a group and not solo when you will still kill everything solo with blind AoE spamming. What purpose do the other 3 people bring? There is no longer any scaling in content that we want to scale, since it is already capped for 4 players even when solo. So that isnt really a reason to surround yourself with others. I've personally played solo 99% of the time over the last 2+ years, since other people didnt bring anything to the missions. And that was due to either AoE frames, AoE guns, or massive reaching melee occupying my loadouts.

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Am 10.9.2022 um 02:52 schrieb SiriSnugglebottoms:

The problem with saying that people like OP should be the ones to play solo is that there will always be a best and fastest strategy so you're just trying to shovel water out of a boat with a hundred leaks. Your Grakata Grendel is never going to keep up with someone who is trying to go fast, and aoe weapons were never even the most egregious offenders. There's many other strategies that require so much less effort (and aoe weapons are low effort to begin with) like Thermal Sunder on anything, not just Titania. Zephyr, Khora or Saryn defending objectives. Frost, Xaku, Ember, and others can be built to have enormous AoE clears with basically no effort involved. Even if all of those get nerfed people who want to go fast will just get their praedos and mobilize mod and get around the map faster than you and kill before you arrive even without aoe weapons or abilities because you're trying to run your favourite meme rather than be quick.

The nerfs do not help you. I understand y'all enjoying your schadenfreude but you're absolutely delusional.

Before the ammo nerf, I offered the very same thing:
Open map, pick whatever solution you like, just not AOE weapon and let us see who has more kills at the end of the session.

Noone accepted and there is a reaon. Just more words, more words, more words. All your solutions have one spectacular disadvantage: they are super slow. Zephyr, Khora, Saryn, Frost, Xaku, Ember, they dont get more than a handful of kills, because before they are finished with their casting time, I would have shot 2 times already. This means: map is clear.

While your super frames and advanced strategies might somehow net you some kills in everything lower than lvl 100, because I might fall asleep while doing it, in Steel path you won't get anything done.

And this is what is everyone bugging here: You need to pick the same strategy or the guy with the Zarr will solo the mission. But like all the others, you won't understand either. Because you are not here to make it right, you are here to be right.

 

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On 2022-09-10 at 8:28 AM, BLI7Z said:

You still didn't explain why AoE spam with 1 botton, looking at the floor and not engaging with other aspects of the game isn't braindead.

Depends on how you define "braindead".

Aiming explosives on floors or surfaces is actually right even by real world standards, which is why you don't train gunners to headshot people with grenade launchers. Because it's inefficient and tbh , stupid. Doing it is not using your brain = braindead, just like using a sniper rifle in midrange on hordes or using the braton outside of the tutorial prologue of warframe. Braindead to me is purposefully being inefficient (like drinking water from a tap using a spoon because it's more "active engagement" than drinking with your mouth or a glass since you have to "use your brain to calculate how many drops before the spoon overflows" or something xD) and playing a fast-paced game like a turtle. This nerf isn't about "balance", it's about padding timesink for DE because efficiency slashes log-in time and log-in time = money.

So props to the players who will still go for efficiency and refine their meta and not fall to the "try everything we offer (which are mostly useless)" trap of DE, and happy refining!

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6 hours ago, Dunkelheit said:

Before the ammo nerf, I offered the very same thing:
Open map, pick whatever solution you like, just not AOE weapon and let us see who has more kills at the end of the session.

Noone accepted and there is a reaon. Just more words, more words, more words. All your solutions have one spectacular disadvantage: they are super slow. Zephyr, Khora, Saryn, Frost, Xaku, Ember, they dont get more than a handful of kills, because before they are finished with their casting time, I would have shot 2 times already. This means: map is clear.

While your super frames and advanced strategies might somehow net you some kills in everything lower than lvl 100, because I might fall asleep while doing it, in Steel path you won't get anything done.

And this is what is everyone bugging here: You need to pick the same strategy or the guy with the Zarr will solo the mission. But like all the others, you won't understand either. Because you are not here to make it right, you are here to be right.

 

Well, DE only wants to slow down the game and turn it into a sort of second-rate mass effect clone because they want to pad log-in times. Efficiency is using your brain. Not being efficient or finding ways to be is braindead xD

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8 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

I'm pretty sure that user is going to reply to you, but only have the reply post selectively slide into this thread 3 days later so that you most likely already forgot about the thread and its content, in order to delay any potential replies from you...

I think it's because their post need to be moderated/scrutinized each time, as they themselves admitted (I don't remember where). The moderation takes time, so yeah.

Not trying to give them excuse. In fact, what I just said probably just made it worse.

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