Revenant's MESMER SKIN is a bit unbalanced - BALANCE SUGGESTION

[AegidiusF]

il y a 11 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Toxin damage doesn't bypass Mesmer Skin, but environmental hazards do. However, so long as Mesmer Skin is active, Revenant literally can't die to anything. His HP will only go down to 2.

Yes, I know, but Nox poison is a environmental hazard and it makes Toxin Damage, that's why I said SOME Toxin sources. Even if your HP was blocked at 2, on recast (before the changes) the Toxin damage would kill you. That was my point.

il y a 14 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Again, energy cost is irrelevant even before Revenant existed. Zenurik and pizzas made energy economy a non-issue and now with Helminth, you can slap Protea's Dispensary on just about everything.

No it wasn't. The best way to keep energy was using Arcane Energize and it wasn't enough. Zenurik helps a lot, but before, it wasn't enough neither. Now, Zenurik's alone can do the job.

Protea's Dispensary is not a problem to me : if you can make an immortal Revenant with a specific build and some infusions, you're doing some investment on your frame. This would be OK. This case won't be an unmodded Revenant having much more survivability that a frame with a specific build and some Forma. To me, this would be no problem.

Perhaps I should remember that the problem I'm pointing here is at what cost we can get Revenant's invulnerability : now, it very low cost, even unmodded Revenant. Immortality/invulnerability is not a problem, in my opinion, it's an amazing gameplay, but up to this day (even with Revenant before the changes) always had a cost, in terms of investment or in terms of gameplay  compensations.

il y a 19 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Nothing you said refuted my points. Revenant was unkillable before the buff too, all it did was make it so you spent less time mashing 2 to keep the charges up. That's it. If you play Revenant right, Mesmer Skin getting melted in seconds was never an issue, even when fighting enemies immune to sleep.

Everything I've refuted your points.

Let's see :

Before the changes : you could lose all your stacks in 1 second, depending on the number of surrounding enemies firing at you.

After the changes: you have a minimum duration of invulnerability depending on your stack number.

These two are very different.

Again : being unkillable is not the problem. On the first post I gave the exemples of Nyx, Valkyr and Shild gaters. This difference is what does it cost to achieve.

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 33 minutes, RichardKam a dit :

Revenant mesmer skin allows him to be immortal. Other tanky frames are also immortal for that matter, Inaros, Wukong, Rhino, Nezha, etc, to name a few. He is not that special.

But mesmer skin is not invulnerable. Corpus nullifier, eximus, many things can withstand the CC part and also shield other enemies, posing a real threat to him.

Before helminth Revenant also lacks damage buff and armor strip, severely limiting his damage potential. Yes, thrall and reave combo is a thing, but it costs energy and is not the most reliable ability to kill a particular enemy, especially boss.

Not to mention that he almost brings nothing helpful to a full squad. 

I would say Revenant is in a OK-ish position.

Revenant is ok and very nice to me.

Before the changes, Eximus were a real problem to Revenant. Let's take the exemple of an Eximus Heavy gunner : because of the CC immunity, each shot you got would cost one stack. A Heavy Gunner has a fire rate of about 12shots by second. The Eximus Heavy Gunner needed less than two seconds to completely remove all stacks of a 250% strenght power Revenant. That's why some changes were necessary.

But now, an Eximus Heavy gunner needs 6 seconds to remove all stacks from an unmodded Revenant. In 6 seconds, a player can regenerate 30 energy points with Zenurik. So the invulnerabilty duration costs only 20 energy points to a totally unmodded Revenant. No mods, no investment, no Forma, no specific build, nothing, just Revenant. That's why I'm saying that it's a bit OP.

[Lutesque]

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Revenant's MESMER SKIN is a bit unbalanced

Did you forget That you were Playing Warframe ? Ofcourse it's Unbalanced.... NOTHING in Warframe is Balanced ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

...a casting cooldown....

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 22 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

The problem is that if you play in public teams, getting thralls will be a nightmare. Teammates murder them without a single care for what Revenant needs.

DE would have to make it so thralls are immune to friendly fire except for the Revenant who owns them before we can begin to think about synergizing it with Mesmer Skin cooldown.

Yes, I have to agree with you here. This would be a problem. You are right. I haven't thought about open squads.

[Pizzarugi]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

No it wasn't. The best way to keep energy was using Arcane Energize and it wasn't enough.

I hate to come off as one of those gatekeeping elitists, but this sounds like a skill issue.

I don't use energize on Revenant, even before the buff, and never had to worry about maintaining Mesmer Skin. I enter a mission, hop into operator, activate the Zenurik bubble, and have enough energy to get Mesmer Skin rolling. If I have difficulty finding energy orbs, I pop the Zenurik buff to make sure I have some to recast when needed.

7 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Perhaps I should remember that the problem I'm pointing here is at what cost we can get Revenant's invulnerability : now, it very low cost, even unmodded Revenant. Immortality/invulnerability is not a problem, in my opinion, it's an amazing gameplay, but up to this day (even with Revenant before the changes) always had a cost, in terms of investment or in terms of gameplay  compensations.

Which, as I've said before, has never been a thing we had to think about even before the buff. With the exception of blundering into nullifiers or a comba/bog/scrambus enemy which shuts down your second ability, I've never had to struggle with maintaining Mesmer Skin charges.

As someone who uses a Revenant build designed to fight max level demos in Steel Path before the buff came out, I can assure you what you're talking about has never crossed a Revenant player's mind.

9 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Before the changes : you could lose all your stacks in 1 second, depending on the number of surrounding enemies firing at you.

Which doesn't matter, because you can just recast Mesmer Skin and pretend like it didn't happen. All the buff did was make it so you don't have to mash the ability in particularly hectic scenarios.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 22 minutes, SpiritTeA a dit :

Like if you really don’t like using skills that much, there is always Operator mode, press 5 few jumps away from enemies and you’re fine. It’s not forcing you to change gameplay, but yes, you have to use whole the loadout (not only Warframes).

As OP said it would be GREAT when whole kit synergies that well and that should be main focus imo, but you always can go lazier path, and lazier path shouldn’t be as much rewarding.

Unfortunately for someone, that’s DE’s direction. They’re trying their best making you to utilize your whole kit instead of just using 1 skill and 1 weapon.

I agree with you.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 2 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

I hate to come off as one of those gatekeeping elitists, but this sounds like a skill issue.

I don't use energize on Revenant, even before the buff, and never had to worry about maintaining Mesmer Skin. I enter a mission, hop into operator, activate the Zenurik bubble, and have enough energy to get Mesmer Skin rolling. If I have difficulty finding energy orbs, I pop the Zenurik buff to make sure I have some to recast when needed.

You are right. That's now how we can play Revenant. Arcane Energize is no more needed. We can use more useful arcanes to make more damage or critical chance.

il y a 3 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

As someone who uses a Revenant build designed to fight max level demos in Steel Path before the buff came out, I can assure you what you're talking about has never crossed a Revenant player's mind.

I agree, but as you said : you've made a build for this, you have made some investment on your warframe (Potato, perhaps Forma). I showed that now everyone can get much more than Rolling Guard (and with no cooldown) just with an unmodded Revenant, just to show how OP Mesmer Skin have become.

il y a 5 minutes, Pizzarugi a dit :

Which doesn't matter, because you can just recast Mesmer Skin and pretend like it didn't happen. All the buff did was make it so you don't have to mash the ability in particularly hectic scenarios.

I just gave the exemple of an Eximus Heavy Gunner to another friend here to show why some Mesmer Skin changes were needed. Before the changes an Eximus Heavy Gunner needed less than 2 seconds to remove all stacks from a 250% Revenant. Recasting Mesmer Skin (50 energy points) every 2 seconds is a great amount of energy, much more than Zenuriks regen. With a bunch of enemies around only one Eximus could mean death te Revenant before the changes. The enrgy cost was high, but the benefit was also high. Now, the benefit is even higher, but the energy cost (and the investment needed) are much lower than before.

[cute_moth.npc]

Just let them keep it that way there's something easy to play on when they go into high level missions and we won't get so many posts from people upset that an enemy did something that made them fall over and have to revive ^^;

[AegidiusF]

il y a 4 minutes, cute_moth.npc a dit :

Just let them keep it that way there's something easy to play on when they go into high level missions and we won't get so many posts from people upset that an enemy did something that made them fall over and have to revive ^^;

I kind of feel bad by suggesting this, but I was hoping to suggest something that would prevent a worse nerf in the future, in a way we would still be able to have much fun with Revenant (and soon with Revenant Prime 🤩).

To me, players' fun is the law. I would ask DE to write this on the Warframe logo : Ludentium jucunditas lex suprema est ! 😁

[RichardKam]

25分钟前 , (NSW)AegisFifi 说:

Revenant is ok and very nice to me.

Before the changes, Eximus were a real problem to Revenant. Let's take the exemple of an Eximus Heavy gunner : because of the CC immunity, each shot you got would cost one stack. A Heavy Gunner has a fire rate of about 12shots by second. The Eximus Heavy Gunner needed less than two seconds to completely remove all stacks of a 250% strenght power Revenant. That's why some changes were necessary.

But now, an Eximus Heavy gunner needs 6 seconds to remove all stacks from an unmodded Revenant. In 6 seconds, a player can regenerate 30 energy points with Zenurik. So the invulnerabilty duration costs only 20 energy points to a totally unmodded Revenant. No mods, no investment, no Forma, no specific build, nothing, just Revenant. That's why I'm saying that it's a bit OP.

Do you know before the entire eximus rework, the same is also true for a measy corpus nullifier? And they are everywhere. A bunch of corpus standing inside a nullifier bubble can shred Revenant in 2 seconds. That's why every Revenant main brings miter in corpus mission.

And remeber that Revenant does not have any damage buff ability. OK Revenant is undying. So what? All he can do is keep recasting mesmer skin to keep status quo if you are not bringing any viable weapons. His 4 is useless in SP content so it is not possible for him to keep dancing and recasting mesmer skin anyway. His thrall is useless even in regular starchart. 

Compare with other undying frame, Revenant is really just OK-ish, and far from OP, and light-year away from unbalance. The only highlight of his career was when he could one shot wolf of saturn six.

[0_The_F00l]

hmm ...

hmmm, he isnt really that unbalance, but ....

Sure , there are ways to replenish the mesmer charges through thralls , so it will not be that bad ,

will need to match the timing of the cooldown so its not too short or too large though.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 20 minutes, RichardKam a dit :

Do you know before the entire eximus rework, the same is also true for a measy corpus nullifier? And they are everywhere. A bunch of corpus standing inside a nullifier bubble can shred Revenant in 2 seconds. That's why every Revenant main brings miter in corpus mission.

I don't really agree. Corpus Nullifiers use snipers and these weapons don't have the same fire rate Heavy Gunners have. The get the same situation, you need about 12 Corpus Nullifiers. Also, Corpus Nullifiers were a threat to every single frame, not only to Revenant, but Eximus were melting Revenant's main survivability mean, but that was not the case for other frames. That's why they were not a specific problem for Revenant.

il y a 20 minutes, RichardKam a dit :

And remeber that Revenant does not have any damage buff ability. OK Revenant is undying. So what? All he can do is keep recasting mesmer skin to keep status quo if you are not bringing any viable weapons. His 4 is useless in SP content so it is not possible for him to keep dancing and recasting mesmer skin anyway. His thrall is useless even in regular starchart. 

I agree that Revenant do not have damage multipliers, but that was not a problem : his high survivability used to let him kill any mob with his weapons. His 4th is not that useless : it's a nice status effect shower and it has the advantage to adapt to the enemies weakness. I use Thrall very often. For the Archon hunt, Thrall was a very nice option to fast kill the sentients and the Deacons : paired with Reave, it could kill very easy the thralled enemies. Really very nice synergy. I don't know why people don't use it very often.

il y a 20 minutes, RichardKam a dit :

Compare with other undying frame, Revenant is really just OK-ish, and far from OP, and light-year away from unbalance. The only highlight of his career was when he could one shot wolf of saturn six.

I've done it. I've compared to Nyx, Valkyr, current status of Loki, and the easy-shield gater frames. They need much more investment, a nice build and much more energy.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Why ?

Someone not dying doesn't affect your gameplay, just like someone using nezha Rhino or Vazarin dash doesn't affect you in any way.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 1 minute, (PSN)Madurai-Prime a dit :

Someone not dying doesn't affect your gameplay, just like someone using nezha Rhino or Vazarin dash doesn't affect you in any way.

Yes, I agree. Revenant's Mesmer Skin is not disruptive at all.

This is not the problem I'm pointing here.

Very often, I use Valkyr with a Hysteria buld thet make it last for a whole mission (even long survival runs). But it has a high cost. The problem I'm pointing here is that Mesmer Skin (even with an unmodded Revenant) is much stronger than any invulnerabilty mechanics and with very low cost, and this do not seem well balanced to me.

[Skoomaseller]

"now revenant is immortal" bruh. revenant has always been immortal. 

please stop calling for DE to ruin things that are perfectly fine and instead tell them to focus on things that aren't fine, broken, or just garbage.

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Revenant was never as OP as he is now. Before you could lose a whole bunch of stack depending on the number of enemies around : stacks were consummed by attack reflected, now stacks are consummed by attack reflected by second. It's very different. Before, if you had a great number of enemies around, you could lose all your stacks in a fow seconds (just the way it used to happen with one single Eximus, before the Veilbreaker changes). Now, the number of stacks are equal to the minimum number of seconds of invulnerability.

No you couldnt. That only happened versus CC-immune mobs, nothing else. Anything with a high RoF/multishot mechanic would only remove a stack on the first hit inflicted, which worked as it should back when he was released, as he was inteded to work. This however failed to work in Steel Path, since enemy density scaling was equal to a 4 man team even when solo, something that hadnt been taken into account for Rev. Playing a group in Steel Path was exactly the same as playing in a group elsewhere though, since you no longer recieved all fire.

When Rev was released we never had any great number of enemies around, which is why 15 stacks (even less, I always ran with 11-12) could last for minutes on end. Which is why he was also so strong in Lich content and Arbitrations, because you didnt have to worry about anyhting. That is how he was intended to work, Steel Path just happened to break that part of him. People just didnt notice because not that many played him, and less so played him in SP. People reacted to the Eximus, since they are everywhere in the game and did the same thing to Rev no matter the content or level really. 

So you've probably not played him prior to SP, so you dont really know the vast difference between his release and post-SP. Now he again works and feels exactly like he did from his release and onward. Which is exactly what DE wanted if you read the actual patch notes regarding why the recent change happened. And it is a spot on change, since it makes him feel like he should while also scaling with content.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Yes, I agree. Revenant's Mesmer Skin is not disruptive at all.

This is not the problem I'm pointing here.

Very often, I use Valkyr with a Hysteria buld thet make it last for a whole mission (even long survival runs). But it has a high cost. The problem I'm pointing here is that Mesmer Skin (even with an unmodded Revenant) is much stronger than any invulnerabilty mechanics and with very low cost, and this do not seem well balanced to me.

Ok....can Revenant do a steel path defense to round 30 solo?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I’d never thought I’d see the day where Revenant mains are asking for him to be nerfed.

[DeadVoid118]

This is a bad idea, and I hate it.

Revenant's Mesmer Skin is one of the best survivability ability, sure. It does not need a nerf, or any change really. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being very good at surviving, it won't directly help you actually finish the mission. It won't even let you complete the mission faster unless you're already dying, which is in and of itself a problem for some players that don't like super active gameplay like bouncing everywhere and abusing shield-gating. It doesn't hurt any other player, it doesn't interfere with other players, and it doesn't hurt anyone's enjoyment of the game. The only thing it does is let a player not die and focus on doing things other than surviving. That's good, that's fair, and that's a non-issue that players are surviving damage.

[ShogunGunshow]

I would love a mod/helminth section that converts a portion of your abilities' damage to True damage in exchange for a cooldown and/or increased energy cost.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, Skoomaseller a dit :

"now revenant is immortal" bruh. revenant has always been immortal. 

please stop calling for DE to ruin things that are perfectly fine and instead tell them to focus on things that aren't fine, broken, or just garbage.

Plese stop saying things that has nothing to do with the discussion, without even reading the context.

I've explained more than enough the difference between now and before. And I'm not asking DE to ruin nothing.

Revenant always had the possibility of being immortal and that's not a problem to me : I like it and I always played Revenant this way, but it needed some investment on the frame, a build to be able to survive and some energy cost. Now, even a totally unmodded Revenant in more efficient in terms of survivability than any other frame with a good build and a bunch of Forma. That's what I'm pointing here.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

8 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

INTRODUCTION

I love Revenant and I'm looking forward to getting his Prime Version, but after the Veilbreaker update, 1 second of invulnerabilty was added each time Mesmer Skin loses 1 stack. This was supposed to fix the problem created by the introduction of Overguard (not affected by the Mesmer Skin crowd control), that was making Revenant lose all his Mesmer skin stacks extremely fast when attacked by some high fire rate Eximus.

THE PROBLEM

The problem is that now Revenant is immortal with very low cost and compensations : Nyx and Valkyr and every frame that can Shield Gate well can do the same thing, but Nyx and Valkyr need much more energy and a specific build and Shileld gating need a lot of skills and it's not that easy. On the other hand, even an unmodded Revenant can be immortal at any mission, with very low investment and energy cost. Even though Revenant still can receive damage from rare sources, he is invulnerable to almost everything in the game, no matter the faction or the level.

I'm always against nerfing things and I'm convinced that "a big pillar of Warframe is let players do what they will,  but we also don’t want it to be too crazy". (Pablo on Devstream 162). Revenant's Mesmer Skin is not (in my opinion) disruptive to other players. Revenant isn't dominant at all (even though he went from 27th to 22nd on the rank of most used frames - 1.33% on 2020 and 1.46% on 2021). And it cant't create an automated gameplay (perhaps with the exception of the self-stagger immunity).

The problem is not with Revenant, but with Mesmer Skin in itself : this ability is too much OP for the energy cost.

 

POSSIBLE SOLUTION

I would suggest, to "fix" the problem in a very simple way, just to add a casting cooldown on Mesmer Skin. This cooldown would be a bit higher than the stacks created. As an exemple : if Mesmer Skin has 15 stacks, the ability will have a cooldown of 20 seconds. The use of a cooldown to balance an ability already exists for Gyre's Cathode Grace, and for Valky's Enraged augment Mod.

As Revenant can regenerate Mesmer Skin stacks with the synergy between Enthrall and Reave, this cooldown balance will work the same way as Gyre's Cathode Grace cooldown works for Gyre. And will have the advantage to make Enthrall and Reave more impactful on Revenants gameplay. This would not break down Mesmer Skin and this ability will remain as awesome as before.

Finally, a post showing undeniable evidence that revenant is the best tank frame.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I’d never thought I’d see the day where Revenant mains are asking for him to be nerfed.

Told you he was op

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

No you couldnt.

Yes, you could. I've experienced that many times.

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

That only happened versus CC-immune mobs, nothing else. Anything with a high RoF/multishot mechanic would only remove a stack on the first hit inflicted, which worked as it should back when he was released, as he was inteded to work

I'm not talking about that. One stack was consummed by damage reflected by ENEMY ! That was my exemple : 12 enemies firing at you at the same time used to consume 12 stacks ! This even before the Eximus rework. Even before Steel Path.

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

This however failed to work in Steel Path, since enemy density scaling was equal to a 4 man team even when solo, something that hadnt been taken into account for Rev.

Even before Steel Path we could have tons of enemies around, and I'm not only talking about Infested missions. Lua survival could have much more than just 15 mobs at a time.

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

People reacted to the Eximus, since they are everywhere in the game and did the same thing to Rev no matter the content or level really. 

People reacted to Eximus because of the high fire rate of the Eximus Heavy Gunner. Other Eximus units were not the problem.

Citation

 

Revenant’s Mesmer Skin Change: 

• Now grants 1 second of invulnerability after a charge is consumed.
  • The addition of Overguard affected the efficiency of Mesmer Skin, as rapidfire Overguarded enemies would melt through their Mesmer Skins and remain unaffected by the incoming sleep effect. To bring this ability closer to its original intention, Mesmer Skin will now grant 1 second of invulnerability after a charge is consumed. This gives players time to react to these powerful units before taking their full damage.

 

 

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

So you've probably not played him prior to SP

Of course I did. That's why I can talk about the difference between then and now.

Il y a 4 heures, SneakyErvin a dit :

Now he again works and feels exactly like he did from his release and onward.

Nope, he is much more OP than before.

I've found this on the Forum a player stating the problems of Mesmer Skin at 2019 (before Eximus) and outside Steel Path.

Citation

Although mesmer skin stuns enemies that attack you, with the enemy density in warframe you can expect averages of 15-20 enemies in a room with you at a given time, meaning even with 300% strength mesmer skin you will be recasting a LOT.

Enemy density was already a problem in 2019.

 

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 3 heures, (PSN)Madurai-Prime a dit :

Ok....can Revenant do a steel path defense to round 30 solo?

I don't know. Never tried for long Defense runs. But he can surely do many hours of SP Survival and Disruption.