Shield Gating Bypasses Any Limitations and Trivializes Gameplay Styles

[George_PPS]

On 2022-09-29 at 3:48 PM, Artekkor said:

I'm not sure about removing, as this was a very positive thing to add to make shields better (before HP was just a superior source of durability, especially if you had reliable ways to restore it).
But something definitely needs to be done about the shield-gating meta. The whole "i'm gonna intentionally turn my shields into double-digits to trigger shield-gate as often as i humanly can" shtick just doesn't sit right with me. Why even have all the shield capacity mods, when having weaker shields is clearly a better solution?

My proposition would be not removal, but addition of some kind of hard-coded cooldown before it can be triggered again, irrelevant of shield's current restoration status.
Either that or make it somehow correlated with the shield capacity - with bigger and stronger shields having lesser gate-cooldown and maybe even longer-living invincibility or whatever.

Either way - shields should not be punished for growing bigger. I do not accept a world where 100 shield is apparently a better survival tool than a 2000 one. Just no.

Thank you. Yea This meta abuse of SG should be removed. 

 

On 2022-09-29 at 12:53 PM, --END--Rikutatis said:

Shield gating gameplay isn't "trivial without efforts". Even Pablo said as much in a stream in the past. Facetanking with Inaros or another ehp frame is. You just stand still, do nothing and never die. Shield gating is a more involved gameplay loop, requiring the right timing to dodge and replenish shields with powers or brief respite. What DE should nerf is decaying dragon key though. That one is clearly an unintended mechanic. That way players would need to build more carefully and/or use helminth for the replenish. So nerf decaying dragon key and leave shield gating. It also doesn't affect ehp tanking. Ehp tank frames can still do their braindead tanking until enemy levels in the 300-400 anyways. There's no need to shield gate if you don't want to. 

A lot of time devs opinion actually contradicts themselves on the way the game should be balanced. SG is clearly easy to trigger and marking tanky frames meaningless and jokes. It should be removed. 

[Traumtulpe]

Is it just me, or is the situation in warframe kinda messed up?

Each day every day, some random guy comes to the forum and demands that an optional playstyle they personally never use be deleted from the game. In a single player PvE game, no less (where you may enable meeting other players if you so choose).

"I saw a video of a guy just pressing e to win a mission (while being literally invincible, but never mind that, it's the melee's fault!). Pls make melee useless DE!" DE: "Right on it... there you go, melee nerfed by 75%. Anything else you want deleted?"

"Yeah actually, now that melee got deleted from the game, everyone is using explosive weapons. I don't like that for some arbitrary reason!" DE: "...fixed that for you, we just removed all AoE ammo from the game! Enjoy everyone elses suffering~! Anything else?"

"Now that I think about it, I don't like how I play as Inaros and never use abilities, yet I'm somehow not the tankiest player in the game. Please delete shield gating as well DE!"

Meanwhile I: "Hey DE, here is a video of this awful bug that's been in the game for like 3 years at least. I know because I reported it 3 years ago for the first time, could you... like fix it? Anytime is fine..." DE: "Hahaha... look at that guy reporting bugs for years. Makes me laugh every time."

Or "Hey DE, this warframe has 3 literally useless abilities..." DE: *silence* "Hey DE, some abilities can't be used on enemies with overguard. I'm talking non-CC abilities of course." DE: *silence* "Hey DE, you actually broke gas damage with your rework, it no longer scales with elemental mods at all!" DE: *silence*

I guess breaking things really is easier than fixing them.

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Is it just me, or is the situation in warframe kinda messed up?

Each day every day, some random guy comes to the forum and demands that an optional playstyle they personally never use be deleted from the game. In a single player PvE game, no less (where you may enable meeting other players if you so choose).

"I saw a video of a guy just pressing e to win a mission (while being literally invincible, but never mind that, it's the melee's fault!). Pls make melee useless DE!" DE: "Right on it... there you go, melee nerfed by 75%. Anything else you want deleted?"

"Yeah actually, now that melee got deleted from the game, everyone is using explosive weapons. I don't like that for some arbitrary reason!" DE: "...fixed that for you, we just removed all AoE ammo from the game! Enjoy everyone elses suffering~! Anything else?"

"Now that I think about it, I don't like how I play as Inaros and never use abilities, yet I'm somehow not the tankiest player in the game. Please delete shield gating as well DE!"

Meanwhile I: "Hey DE, here is a video of this awful bug that's been in the game for like 3 years at least. I know because I reported it 3 years ago for the first time, could you... like fix it? Anytime is fine..." DE: "Hahaha... look at that guy reporting bugs for years. Makes me laugh every time."

Or "Hey DE, this warframe has 3 literally useless abilities..." DE: *silence* "Hey DE, some abilities can't be used on enemies with overguard. I'm talking non-CC abilities of course." DE: *silence* "Hey DE, you actually broke gas damage with your rework, it no longer scales with elemental mods at all!" DE: *silence*

I guess breaking things really is easier than fixing them.

This is the state of the game. SG is clearly a form of cheese and trivializes gameplay and builds. It also renders tanky frames meaningless. Why use tanky frames? Why tanky frames are being punished for being tanky and therefore their abilities should be less powerful? Shield gating has to be an "unintended" bug or design from the developers and this should not be encouraged. Let's keep this thread afloat until SG is removed. If you have any other recommendations about any cheesy play styles that are abusive and making "skill based" gameplay trivial, list them and let's demand DE to remove them since this is the dominate methodology of updates nowadays. 

[selig_fay]

50 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

This is the state of the game. SG is clearly a form of cheese and trivializes gameplay and builds. It also renders tanky frames meaningless. Why use tanky frames? Why tanky frames are being punished for being tanky and therefore their abilities should be less powerful? Shield gating has to be an "unintended" bug or design from the developers and this should not be encouraged. Let's keep this thread afloat until SG is removed. If you have any other recommendations about any cheesy play styles that are abusive and making "skill based" gameplay trivial, list them and let's demand DE to remove them since this is the dominate methodology of updates nowadays. 

Tank frames are weak? Nidus can have 17 million potential ehp with an ancient healer and with unairy is able to destroy 9k levels with just his combo 2 - armorstrip - 1 - 1 - repeat. Shieldgate exists because shields are soft and because HP has a ton of healing options. If you're saying remove the shielsgate, well, then we have to make healing difficult. And by difficult, I mean the regeneration aura level. Because solid HP + strong healing is just as powerful for the gameplay you want.

[Drachnyn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb George_PPS:

This is the state of the game. SG is clearly a form of cheese and trivializes gameplay and builds. It also renders tanky frames meaningless. Why use tanky frames? Why tanky frames are being punished for being tanky and therefore their abilities should be less powerful? Shield gating has to be an "unintended" bug or design from the developers and this should not be encouraged. Let's keep this thread afloat until SG is removed. If you have any other recommendations about any cheesy play styles that are abusive and making "skill based" gameplay trivial, list them and let's demand DE to remove them since this is the dominate methodology of updates nowadays. 

Why do you keep calling it a bug when it was clearly intentionally introduced into the game?

[Traumtulpe]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

let's demand DE to remove them since this is the dominate methodology of updates nowadays

Let's see... DE needs to delete:

Slash damage and Hunter Munitions in particular. These trivialize armor and supress other options. (And don't bother fixing all the useless damage types please!)

Valkyrs 4 - it literally makes her invincible. (And don't change anything about her USELESS 1 and 3, also don't bother updating her claw's stance, which is atrociously bad and outdated! And please don't make Warcry recastable, that would be too much quality of life!)

Ash's Smoke Screen - it makes him invincible as well. And don't bother fixing his USELESS AND BUGGED 1 and 3, his bugged 1 augment, or his impractical and slow 4.

...this is just sad, I could go on for hours.

[George_PPS]

On 2022-09-30 at 9:50 AM, Drachnyn said:

Why do you keep calling it a bug when it was clearly intentionally introduced into the game?

All mechanics are intentionally designed and introduced into the game. Just think about it using logic. Isn’t shield gating trivializing the idea of having tanky frames Vs squish frames? Why do we need tanky frames to start with if SG is a thing? Use your logic. 

 

On 2022-09-30 at 5:40 AM, selig_fay said:

Tank frames are weak? Nidus can have 17 million potential ehp with an ancient healer and with unairy is able to destroy 9k levels with just his combo 2 - armorstrip - 1 - 1 - repeat. Shieldgate exists because shields are soft and because HP has a ton of healing options. If you're saying remove the shielsgate, well, then we have to make healing difficult. And by difficult, I mean the regeneration aura level. Because solid HP + strong healing is just as powerful for the gameplay you want.

How about other tanky frames? Most aren’t tanky anymore comparing to SG. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb George_PPS:

All mechanics are intentionally designed and introduced into the game. Just think about it using logic. Isn’t shield gating trivializing the idea of having tanky frames Vs squish frames? Why do we need tanky frames to start with if SG is a thing? Use your logic. 

That's not even true, we've had mechanics that were never intentionally designed. Shieldgating however was. None of what you say makes shieldgating a bug, it was introduced to work like it does. Do you want me to link you the patchnotes?

I also get the impression you vastly overestimate the importance of endless runs for the game as a whole. For a lot of content tanky frames work perfectly fine in their tankiness, they often times take less effort to stay alive than doing so with shieldgating. If you find level cap content fun and engaging, go wild on it. But keep in mind that it is a very niche area of the game.

[Maryph]

Il y a 11 heures, George_PPS a dit :

You can tell SG makes squishy frames as good if not superior to “tanky” frames that aren’t tanky at all because of SG. This is a loophole that needs to be removed to equalize frames across the board. 

That's the point of SG, it's designed around this mindset, people can still run tanky frames, and a lot are doing so because modding a squishy frame to SG tank isn't really what all people want. Plus they can't be "superior" to tanky frames, every frame has a different playstyle, people still play what they want, Inaros is still amongst the most played warframes and he has no shield.
The SG mechanic is working as intended by the devs who introduced it. It's also working well since you can bring any frames and you'll do fine (as long as you know how to mod).

Wukong and it's interaction with AoE wasn't what they wanted in th first place, for example since you compared AoE and SG.
Your whole point is falsely based on the assumption that SG is an exploit, the only real "exploit" is with the decaying dragon key, everything else is working as they wanted. I wouldn't mind it being removed as it's really the only real exploit in the SG build.
SG tanking is harder than tanking with gara for example. You can't just face tank anything with sg, you'll have to cast powers to regen your shields all the time because they'll be osed everytime something hit them. As with Gara you can just run through waves of ennemies without taking meaningful damage and killing everything. It's two complete opposites playstyles.

If this point is what's makes you angry because your AoE weapon was slightly nerfed, then go ahead and write a rework about how a squishy frame is supposed to survive SP content without SG. (No, modding with vita or redirection wouldn't work past a certain point.) Because right now, it can't, the frame would be OSed by hitscan weapons and people would just run rhino or other tank frame and you would have another meta on your hand.
Right now it seems that only a small portion of the player base is complaining about shield gate, because it allows every frames to be relevant in the game. That's surely a weird point to complain to.

Nothing is forcing you to play SG, it's even harder to do so than just facetanking with mesmer skin on Rev. You can just bring rev and facetank if you want + OSing lvlcap ennemies without dropping a sweat. Your gameplay isn't disruptive to anyone by doing so. I don't really know why you're complaining right now.
Unless you're trolling, and I strongly think that you're, in fact, a troll.

[selig_fay]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

How about other tanky frames? Most aren’t tanky anymore comparing to SG. 

I have no idea what frame you think is a tank and is suffering (we don't have an official distribution). Maybe an atlas, but he has invulnerability at his 1 and some threat from the wall. Nezha is also invulnerability and a ton of damage. Gara's deathtouch is legendary. I don't see real tanks suffering in any way. Just some frames are not op.

[George_PPS]

On 2022-09-30 at 6:42 AM, selig_fay said:

I have no idea what frame you think is a tank and is suffering (we don't have an official distribution). Maybe an atlas, but he has invulnerability at his 1 and some threat from the wall. Nezha is also invulnerability and a ton of damage. Gara's deathtouch is legendary. I don't see real tanks suffering in any way. Just some frames are not op.

Yes these are tanky frames in traditional ways. But they are no way as tanky as SG that makes any weaker frames literally invincible. It's clearly a design issue even if it was put into the game intentionally like all other updates. 

[Skaleek]

I'm of the mind that they should go back and change the mechanics of shield gating to benefit those people who actually invest in shields, rather than use corrupted keys to lower their shields. The fact that lower shields benefit shield gating makes about zero sense and is at least partially responsible for where we are today. My buddy and I have had many heated debates on the idea of shield gating, but all I can say is he uses zero shield mods or arcanes. In fact shield gating has allowed him to dump all defensive mods except rolling guard and has shifted his builds to entirely offensive on every frame, leaving very little variety.

I'd like to see the duration and cool down time of the gate directly affected by mods we have in our arsenal. Perhaps duration of gate invincibility tied to flat shield amount, and shield recharge tied to the gate cool down to make mods like fast deflection more attractive.

Once again, i think DE got sloppy with the implementation and now here we are.

[George_PPS]

20 hours ago, Skaleek said:

I'm of the mind that they should go back and change the mechanics of shield gating to benefit those people who actually invest in shields, rather than use corrupted keys to lower their shields. The fact that lower shields benefit shield gating makes about zero sense and is at least partially responsible for where we are today. My buddy and I have  In fact shield gating has allowed him to dump all defensive mods except rolling guard and has shifted his builds to entirely offensive on every frame, leaving very little variety.

I'd like to see the duration and cool down time of the gate directly affected by mods we have in our arsenal. Perhaps duration of gate invincibility tied to flat shield amount, and shield recharge tied to the gate cool down to make mods like fast deflection more attractive.

Once again, i think DE got sloppy with the implementation and now here we are.

“In fact shield gating has allowed him to dump all defensive mods except rolling guard and has shifted his builds to entirely offensive on every frame, leaving very little variety.“

 

This is exactly the reason why the mechanics of SG needs to be removed entirely to promote build variety and play style equality in the game. When there is clear abuse of a mechanics, the gameplay becomes one dimensional and bored. Let’s remove this and force player to scramble their loadouts so they can discover new fun ways of gameplay. 

[-BellaMuerte-]

Just remove the unintended abuse with the decaying dragon key and the shield gate.... technically it should not even be used for that.

[cute_moth.npc]

Wait, you're like the god of never nerf, calling for a nerf? ^^;

My world is upside down right now!

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, cute_moth.npc said:

Wait, you're like the god of never nerf, calling for a nerf? ^^;

My world is upside down right now!

Thank you for the compliment. I have changed my mindset and found so many items that need to be "balanced" or "fixed". The last Update finally woke me up. 

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah I agree with some of what's been said here. Shield gating as a gameplay mechanic is GOOD. People seem to be forgetting how rough it could be before it was implemented, it's a major QoL improvement.

The abuse of the recharge mechanic and decaying dragon keys are the unfortunate part, and more than likely completely unintended. By itself, it's actually really hard to make work just on that alone though, you need rolling guard to compensate. It's not invincible, however much it might seem like it, it does have a skill floor of sorts.

It's not a playstyle I enjoy at all, but I don't particularly find it disruptive. If people want to roll around the entire game and play on the edge of death, whatever. From a design standpoint, the only major downside I see is that it allows glass cannons places they otherwise would never survive, but as others are pointing out, that's also possible in other ways besides shield gating, so you'd need to attack that holistically probably if you wanted to eliminate it.

[Helljack84]

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

The abuse of the recharge mechanic and decaying dragon keys are the unfortunate part, and more than likely completely unintended. By itself, it's actually really hard to make work just on that alone though, you need rolling guard to compensate.

That the build requires rolling guard to work isn't exactly a downside. It's just one mod slot alongside, augur+aura for the full build, you'll get some stats you want anyway instead of "wasting" all that space for defensive mods. Being better off having low shield stat and/or debuffing yourself being the (in most cases) superior choice compared to actually investing in shield mods (hey, they exist) feels a bit wrong. 

Shield gating per se is a pretty nice mechanic but imho it's a bit too easy to get into that endless loop.

[Arthegall]

This a bad take. Shield gate was one of the best changes, opened up every frame to have viable survivablitu. They do need to address the dragon key making its to easy to reset the shield gate. But in general shield gate is active game play, you aren’t just some lug with lots of armor and shield sitting there getting shot and not feeling anything. You have to actively keep your shield gate up and actively engage the enemy, which is fun and fits with the Devs stated philosophy. 

[Balegrim]

I think shield gating is good. 

 

But the kind where you regenerate your entire shield before the gate itself wears off through low shield exploits is bad. That S#&$ needs to go and is just invincibility without input of any kind. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

How does someone avoiding death affect you? 

Shield gating is for squishy frames to avoid a few fatal shots. 

It takes energy and not being hit a hundred times for it to even work. 

You can't stand in the middle of a steel path Mot at the 50 minute mark and have shield gating work. All of the bullets will overpower your ability to spam and replenish shields.

[RazeLandale]

I agree, but unironically. But that's not easy because it means nerfing tanks AND enemy damage. Shield gating's a bandaid on 'some frames have always on 95% damage reduction and others don't' game design.

[Probably_Asleep]

I love playing as Mag, and I'm trying to visualize how the game would be without Shield Gating. And I remembered that was how things were before I learned SG. I locked down enemies so they couldn't hit me in the first place and just moved my safe zone slowly through the map. SG let me actually go into the fray and opened up a lot of fun options.

So for me at least, removing SG would make the game slower and less engaging. It doesn't "trivialize" the game for me. If anything, it would be more "trivial" to just sit in a corner and watch enemies melt away in a death bubble.

And I worry about locking out other play styles just because it seems easier than than my own. It seems risky to fuss over others when their version of fun indirectly ensures my own. Warframe needs players, and that means it has to be fun to everyone. If they play in a way I never would (below video) then I'm grateful to have them!

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Yall cried till AOE got nerfed and now you're already on to the next thing, like I said you'd all be.  Mind your own build.  What does it matter to you if other people aren't dying?  Seriously?  Just tired of getting revived all the time?

 

Oh no, someone is using a build that you don't want to use, and it bothers you that it works better, whatever will you do?

 

On 2022-10-05 at 5:50 PM, George_PPS said:

“In fact shield gating has allowed him to dump all defensive mods except rolling guard and has shifted his builds to entirely offensive on every frame, leaving very little variety.“

 

This is exactly the reason why the mechanics of SG needs to be removed entirely to promote build variety and play style equality in the game. When there is clear abuse of a mechanics, the gameplay becomes one dimensional and bored. Let’s remove this and force player to scramble their loadouts so they can discover new fun ways of gameplay. 

There's already build variety.  I don't use a dragon key shield gste on any of my builds because I'm too lazy to swap the key on and off.  My builds are fine, so I use those.  I'm just too busy being "disruptive" to notice other players are using shield gate builds.  Use something else and stop begging for nerfs.

[cute_moth.npc]

On 2022-10-05 at 2:02 PM, George_PPS said:

Thank you for the compliment. I have changed my mindset and found so many items that need to be "balanced" or "fixed". The last Update finally woke me up. 

I feel like that's really unlikely and you're basically trying to salt the earth now because you've literally spent years on end posting almost nothing but anti nerf rants but I will give you the benefit of a doubt that you're turning a new page..

I mean to be honest with you, I am going to actually stick with the salting the earth thing!

You're basically trying to rile people up aren't you? ^^