DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[Skoomaseller]

figure I'll just drop my thoughts here since I didn't when I said I agree w/ you, op. tldr at the bottom.

I agree, I believe meta after meta they don't actually address the root issue of why AOE has always been popular. It does feel like they want us to play a certain way because of that. They can nerf things however they like, end of the day AOE options will always be superior even if they're nerfed.

If it isn't via damage, it's through status spread. If not, it's crowd control.

As a long time player I feel that they only look at the superficial reasons as to why it is popular ("oh because it does big damage, oh because it's easy to use") and not deeper issues like enemy density or actual effectiveness of single-target based offensive options compared to their AOE counterparts. 

And I know they won't address enemy density because it'll require them to look at how missions are structured and they'll have to rework all of that which eats up time. And for a live-service game rehashing or reworking content that already exists doesn't really make the same dough as pumping out new content.

I believe DE absolutely needs to re-look into why ST weapons just aren't popular anymore and give them a nice bump in power. Personal opinion: in addition to giving ST weapons some form of AOE themselves, they need to rework how Puncture and Impact work. I believe this won't eat up as much time as reworking mission structure and it is something that could work.

ST weapons don't need to be as strong as an explosive AOE weapon. They just have to be a viable alternative, which, I feel, they currently are lacking in that.

Some may call my suggestion more power creep, to which I say: in a game like this, the power creep is one of the reasons why people play. We are always getting stronger. Should there be a limit to how strong we get, so we don't reach the point of literally pressing m1 to auto-win a mission? Absolutely. But I feel bringing other lackluster options up to par, is not that.

tl;dr, there are deep systemic issues that nerfs simply won't tackle.

[Achlevius]

36 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

Seems like you're having difficulty understand the example

Am I?

AoE spam weapons in Void Fissures is foolhardy.

AoE spam 'frames in Void Fissures is also foolhardy.

Until DE fixes this (e.g. by making more enemies spawn so long as players have less than 10 void traces and there are no more traces on the map), don't AoE spam in Void Fissures, either with weapons or 'frames.

What am I missing here?
 

36 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

I'm talking about the trend on top of your AoE example

Nevermind, I looked it up myself.
 

56 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

Ya they're strong, but brokenly-strong

If you agree that some AoE weapons are brokenly-strong, then why would you not expect them to get nerfed?

Or did you mean to say they're not brokenly-strong?
 

[YouDontCB_87]

9 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

Until DE fixes this (e.g. by making more enemies spawn so long as players have less than 10 void traces and there are no more traces on the map), don't AoE spam in Void Fissures, either with weapons or 'frames.

Good news to you, AoE working fine in normal star chart, things can still happen based on your context, via SP enemies won't have players collect less than 10 void traces within the mission because enemies always spawn at big number even in exterminate.

I understand AoE can be annoying, but your example doesn't stand.

12 minutes ago, Achlevius said:

If you agree that some AoE weapons are brokenly-strong, then why would you not expect them to get nerfed?

Or did you mean to say they're not brokenly-strong?

My point is they are strong but brokenly-strong (broken=ammo nerf, strong=no nerf to dmg) after the update.

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

I believe DE absolutely needs to re-look into why ST weapons just aren't popular anymore and give them a nice bump in power.

Suggestions like these would not change a thing.

If you give AOE enjoyer a single target gun that does infinity damage, they will still never use it instead of AOE.
Changing Impact or Puncture won't do anything, unless it is changed into "Mark for death" subsume and people ignore that ability anyways.
Warframe always was about AOE metas. AOE frames, AOE melees, AOE guns. DE cannot change the fabric from which the game is made of.

They obviously have a vision for how the game should be balanced and that is: Play however you like, but to nuke everything, you must actively play OR use more than 3 braincells.

The only playstyle that doesn't match that is still (even after the nerfs) AOE guns.

[Achlevius]

11 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

I understand AoE can be annoying, but your example doesn't stand.

It stands if it happens, which it does, in non-SP Void Fissure runs.

I know because it happened to a group I was in a few days ago.  (Again, NON-SP Void Fissure.)
 

13 minutes ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

My point is they are strong but brokenly-strong (broken=ammo nerf, strong=no nerf to dmg) after the update.

OK, wasn't sure which definition of "broken" you were using, but this is clear now.

[Skoomaseller]

30 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Suggestions like these would not change a thing.

If you give AOE enjoyer a single target gun that does infinity damage, they will still never use it instead of AOE.
Changing Impact or Puncture won't do anything, unless it is changed into "Mark for death" subsume and people ignore that ability anyways.
Warframe always was about AOE metas. AOE frames, AOE melees, AOE guns. DE cannot change the fabric from which the game is made of.

They obviously have a vision for how the game should be balanced and that is: Play however you like, but to nuke everything, you must actively play OR use more than 3 braincells.

The only playstyle that doesn't match that is still (even after the nerfs) AOE guns.

Power does not equal purely damage. As I've said elsewhere, I don't think they necessarily need a stat buff; rather I suggested they have a new mechanic implemented or a rework in how punch through works or simply give all ST weapons innate punch through (this is a stat buff).

I feel the "skill" argument to be rather disingenuous: warframe, however you play it, is at its core an easy game. There is not much skill expression to be had in this game. Whether you're using a Daikyu (like me! :D) or a Kuva Tonkor you're essentially using the same brain power.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 hours ago, Achlevius said:

Will it, though?

I hear this often from the pro-AoE crowd, but how many game modes honestly benefit from AoE spam?

The only mission I can see benefit from it is Exterminate.  All the other game modes have timers or some other limit where killing faster doesn't really get you anything extra.

Sure you can kill faster with AoE spam in Survival, but each round is still going to be 5 minutes.  Likewise with Mobile Defense and Sanctuary Onslaught. 

And there's a reason why players often run Speedva in Defense missions.  Even if you could kill all the enemies with a well-placed AoE shot, they don't all spawn at once anyway.

In Assassination, Capture, Rescue, Sabotage, and Spy missions you can pretty much ignore the trash mobs, and in cases where you must deal with them (e.g. Ambulas), there, again, is no benefit to killing them faster with AoE spam then with single-target weapons.

In Defection, Excavation, Hijack and Interception, the only benefit AoE has is that it makes it less likely you will lose a squad / excavator / momentum / satellite tower, so it doesn't so much speed up the game as it helps ensure it does not slow down.  But if you are truly having a hard time in these missions with non-AoE spam weapons, I'd argue you probably need a better loadout.  Maybe bring Oberon instead of Trinity to that Excavator farm.

And finally, Void Fissures: these missions, especially when played on Capture or Exterminate, can actually suffer from AoE spam, as killing enemies too quickly can lead to a scenario where not enough Void Traces drop.  Granted, this is a bug / balancing issue that DE needs to fix, but in it's current state, spamming AoE weapons in these game modes is foolhardy.

The only exception to the above are the Railjack Corpus missions, where the enemies are substantially tankier...but also where you can just call in your Voidrig with it's Mausolon / Arquebex, both of which are, ironically, AoE spam weapons...

If you don't have a loot frame, kill speed is an absolute requirement for survival unless you're only staying to like, B rot.  Yes, you can use the towers to keep it up, but that requires everyone move together from tower to tower because otherwise spawn spreads out to nothing.  Survival without being shoehorned into a couplenof specific frames requires kill speed for LS drops.  There are many ways to get that kill speed, but nerfing launchers removes options. 

 

Defense rounds are over when the waves are dead.  There is a reason people bring saryn to defense so often.  AOE.  Again, launchers are options they're trying to remove.

 

Captures frequently turn into exterminates, which is beyond tedious.  Kill speed.

 

Mobile defense at high levels now has too many enemies with special immunities to reliably use only defense or CC options.  Kill speed, or it's bye bye console.  Lower levels, sure.  But literally anything works at low levels.  

 

Isovaults have kill speed requirements.

 

ESO?  Kill speed is literally the only requirement outside of "don't die."

 

It's not just about mission clear time.  With the constant nerfs to viability of CC, kill speed is a defensive tool.

 

And no, I don't bring launchers to every mission. I did like the kogris, so it's at like #6 on my most used primaries.  I use the envoy for clearing infested while farming SE.  That's about it.  But do I bring AOE to every mission through chaining weapons, wide range melee and frame abilities?  Yep.  And that's why I hate this direction.  They'll hammer all AOE into the dirt at this rate and it WILL slow down clear times and grind.

[Corvid]

38 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Warframe always was about AOE metas.

Which is why the first meta weapons in the game were all single target, I'm guessing?

Hek, Acrid, Strun Wraith, Brakk, Synoid Gammacor, Soma. These were all the undisputed meta weapons back in the day, even when AOE options were available.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It would also be a waste of time because Saryn Exists ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well no. It isnt really a problem that certain frames exsist that excell at things. Because it is 1 tool out of many that constantly get used. Skills also require management in a more active way. Though Saryn could in reality use a reduction in her range of things, to better balance her. Which kinda goes for plenty of frames, but that is another topic. DE simply needs to start somewhere, and weapons that are most universal is the place to start, after that they can move onto frames to make them more balanced if needed.

If Saryn was truely imbalanced she would be a top pick along with AoE guns pretty much everywhere, since she still reaches up towards 50m of a map and scales, while AoE guns reach around 10m.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

Before ammo nerfs I could easily keep my ammo stocks in high level end game content , I can't do that anymore because of abysmal ammo pick ups even with ammo mutation .

That's however not an issue in low level none end game content there you don't need more one round of ammo to kill a single enemy of any type allowing you to recover your lost ammo .

Then you kinda did miss my whole point, since probo cernos is maintained well when it comes to ammo, both in endless SP, non endless SP and everywhere else by simply slotting ammo mutation. And it is one of the AoE weapons with the smallest total ammo pool, and it lacks crit stats and good scaling sync with hunter munitions on big hit crits. Not a bad weapon, but probably the "weakest" out of the low ammo AoE weapons.

I've ran out of ammo 1 time since the patch and that was on day 1 in the archon defense since I simpyl forgot about the changes which made me empty my zarr on the low mob count in the mission. But hey, that is why I also carry a secondary and a melee.

[Cerikus]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

These were all the undisputed meta weapons back in the day, even when AOE options were available.

Yes, but don't forget Warframe used to be a completelly different game. Eventually it changed.

We didn't have AOE guns, so we used the best we had - single target guns. But we did have melee... Remember Telos Boltace? Wonder why that got nerfed. 🤔
Also... AOE frames were big and popular. Why did old Mesa got nerfed? Why did old Ash got nerfed? Ember, Limbo, Gara... All used to be AOE nukes and got nerfed.

  

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

how punch through works or simply give all ST weapons innate punch through

That's a nice idea, but it wouldn't tip the scale I'm afraid. As I said. Give all ST weapons innate Marked for death effect and people will still choose Kuva Bramma.

3 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

I feel the "skill" argument to be rather disingenuous: warframe, however you play it, is at its core an easy game.

The ammo nerf effectively did NOTHING to the weapons. I used Bramma and Ogris several times since then. I NEVER ran out of ammo. How? Before pulling the trigger I looked and choose where to shoot. And that really is the difference. There are warframes that can do the same as Bramma, but you have to use two abilites, or maintain a timer, or do something other than shoot nukes under your feet.

Using Daikyu and Tonkor are not the same. Btw props to you for using Daikyu, I love that bow. We both know, that using Daikyu is not as simple as aim in the general direaction of enemies and click LMB.

[Corvid]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Yes, but don't forget Warframe used to be a completelly different game. Eventually it changed.

Which kind of defeats the idea that it was "always" about AOE.

 

5 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

We didn't have AOE guns, so we used the best we had - single target guns.

Many of the weapons I listed were dominant even when AOE options were available.

[Cerikus]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Which kind of defeats the idea that it was "always" about AOE.

 

We used the most AOE thing out of the non-AOE things... Melee weapons and frames. 

4 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Many of the weapons I listed were dominant even when AOE options were available.

And AOE weapons did self damage.

[Mr.NoodleHair]

My problem isn't necessarily with AoE vs Single Target. My issue is that DE made a horde shooter where the goal is to clear the room as fast as possible and get to the objective and get that done as fast as possible. Like your typical arpg.

I like my single target weapons, I just feel like I'm playing wrong for using them cause they can't compete with AoE. I like the feeling of getting headshots, but what's the point of that when I can ragdoll an entire room with a single button press. The nerf is fine, because it didn't really change anything. AoE is still a powerhouse and, in my view, still the best option in clearing rooms. This time with a bit more thought put into it, which isn't bad.

I just wish single target weapons weren't useless. They're literally just collecting dust in my arsenal at this point. I love the Aeolak with its alt-fire and everything, but I only use that when I'm bored and wanna try and get away from only using pure AoE

[Skoomaseller]

49 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

That's a nice idea, but it wouldn't tip the scale I'm afraid. As I said. Give all ST weapons innate Marked for death effect and people will still choose Kuva Bramma.

It's fine if people want to stick to their powerful AOE weapons. My point is to make it so that ST weapons are a viable alternative. Which is why I made those suggestions. We're not going to replace AOE weapons any time soon – and nerfs would just repeat the cycle.

49 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The ammo nerf effectively did NOTHING to the weapons. I used Bramma and Ogris several times since then. I NEVER ran out of ammo. How? Before pulling the trigger I looked and choose where to shoot. And that really is the difference. There are warframes that can do the same as Bramma, but you have to use two abilites, or maintain a timer, or do something other than shoot nukes under your feet.

Using Daikyu and Tonkor are not the same. Btw props to you for using Daikyu, I love that bow. We both know, that using Daikyu is not as simple as aim in the general direaction of enemies and click LMB.

It doesn't matter if the Kuva Tonkor requires less aiming by virtue of being a grenade launcher.

Because at the end of the day, Warframe is an easy game. That's what I'm trying to say. That is why I feel the "skill" argument is just not good.

There is very little skill expression here. There are no complex mechanics related to gunplay. Obviously, shooting a nade into a crowd is easy. But aiming and shooting in this game is not that hard either.

as an aside: WHERE IS MY DAIKYU PRIME DE????

[Dunkelheit]

Am 1.10.2022 um 12:23 schrieb (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan:

And there's still no argument here.  My builds are fine, I don't even main launchers.  My highest use primary is the basmu, which has a very small AOE.  One of my most used kitgun secondaries is rattleguts.  Y'all want so bad for me to be some bramma wielding cookie cutter wukong main, but I've got plenty of variety in my loadouts.  I'm not complaining because my only weapon was nerfed.  I'm complaining about options being nerfed into the dirt without anything else being addressed.

So you are saying you bring the topic up for the 274th time, because you like popcorn drama in forums?

The "nerf" has been discussed a lot. DE made 50% of one Devstream (163) about it, where they extensively explained their reasoning.

Basically you are uninformed (don't take it personal), otherwise you would see that they adressed a lot of things. For example, Headshots do a truckload of damage now. So other guns got a lot stronger.

And like others already stated, the nerf was no nerf, AOE is still as strong as ever and if the tileset is even populated in a mediocre way, you can still Brammahop through the whole levels while aiming just at your feet. This is the very reason why there will be another nerf: Even if you don't touch your builds, it is still amazingly strong, but when you put like 1 minute 22 seconds of thought into your build, you can just build around it easily and use the weapon like you are used to. And this is the main kicker. You can just safely ignore everyone who opens a topic about it, because they don't play the game, they are too lazy to figure things out and even while being clueless about the topic, they think their very, very wrong opinion needs to be heard.

And it is so annoying to repeat the same arguments again and again and again and again. Can't wait till the next guy ignores the Terabytes of data that are about this very topic and goes straight to the "I will open another thread about this topic" - button.

This is not personally about you, I remember your name and I know that you are able to discuss on a high level. This is about the anger society that does not think for themselves, does not inform themselves and still talk like they studied the topic for 20 years now. Again, this is easily fixed by putting 30 minutes in the game and test it out for yourself. There was no "nerf", you did not lose power and the game did not change at all.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Which kind of defeats the idea that it was "always" about AOE.

It has been about AOE since it got majorly popular.  The meta around the time of its biggest spike in popularity had people blasting an atterax through walls clearing the map without even looking.

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, Cerikus said:

We used the most AOE thing out of the non-AOE things... Melee weapons and frames. 

Melee was originally far less viable than ranged attacks, to the point where its main use was for a physics glitch rather than as an actual combat tactic.

Frames were restricted by energy, which was much more scarce than it is now since the only means of acquiring it were orbs, Energy Siphon, energy pads (which had to be built one at a time) or having a Trinity in your squad.

 

2 hours ago, Cerikus said:

And AOE weapons did self damage.

They were still present as an option, which players generally didn't choose.

Seriously, I'm not sure what part of "the game's meta wasn't always all AOE all the time" is so hard to understand.

[TheRealDestian]

14 hours ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

Yep, it doesn't matter if a sniper can one shot every enemy in the game. People will still choose the nuke over the single target weapon because every mission of Warframe is a race to extraction. Pretty sure the whole reason Soulframe is under development is so they can start over and do things better, because Warframe is so far detached from its origins that its impossible to reign back in. Nerfing AoE isn't going to kill the AoE meta, its just going to shift it. AoE has always been king and it always will be.

Also, imagine how badly a player would shred the cartilage in their wrists while trying to headshot every single enemy.

Rocket launchers and AoE abilities prevent carpel tunnel...

  

7 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

they need to rework how Puncture and Impact work.

Agreed.

Maybe puncture should shatter the projectile when it passes through an enemy into a 90 degree spread behind them, hitting everything in that cone for 80% damage and can headshot as well.

Impact could launch enemies and effectively turn them into projectiles that damage other enemies, even creating a chain reaction with enough impact damage done.

[nerfinator6]

The issue is that you can't just buff a single target weapon to be on par with existing AOE weapons without turning it into an AOE weapon itself, a rifle can only do so much, even if it can shoot through 12 enemies with a single bullet, it's still not going to compete with something that can kill the entire room without requiring aiming, especially since most weapons are more than capable of 1 or 2 shotting most enemies in normal content.

You either have to make AOE weapons their own catagory, give single target weapons a way of damaging multiple enemies in a way comparable to AOE weapons, or nerf AOE weapons to the point where the total DPS matches the rest of the game's weapons, but even then they'd be more than capable of deleting entire rooms at once, unless DE adds a damage cap per enemy hit with an AOE weapon.

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2022-10-01 at 2:09 AM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

but they won't look at mountains of negative feedback or bad reviews. 

"I'm not getting what I want" is not the same as "i'm not being listened to"

Your opinions and desires are not the only ones being listened to, that's all.

[bad4youLT]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then you kinda did miss my whole point, since probo cernos is maintained well when it comes to ammo, both in endless SP, non endless SP and everywhere else by simply slotting ammo mutation. And it is one of the AoE weapons with the smallest total ammo pool, and it lacks crit stats and good scaling sync with hunter munitions on big hit crits. Not a bad weapon, but probably the "weakest" out of the low ammo AoE weapons.

I've ran out of ammo 1 time since the patch and that was on day 1 in the archon defense since I simpyl forgot about the changes which made me empty my zarr on the low mob count in the mission. But hey, that is why I also carry a secondary and a melee.

My guess you don't play at lvl 200 steel path fissures or lvl 500 arbitrations 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And there it is.  You want everyone else to play at your pace.  Y'all will scream "git gud" till you're blue in the face but it's just the fact that you're tired of everyone else in the squad not role playing like this is a splinter cell game with you

No, it's not and no, I don't. DE is focusing on all of the disruptive elements of the game. Is it your intention to ruin everyone else's experience just so you can get what you want? Are you playing in pub, aka a team, but your intentions are to just get your stuff and say screw the squad? If so, then that's what solo is for.

Those are the issues that have ultimately caused these changes. "Git gud" is only shouted out because of the selfishness displayed by those players. If you're not good enough to tackle the harder missions solo, and you need a squad to help you get the rewards, then don't negatively affect the squad with a display of bad behavior. Of course, you just gave  a hint that you're unwilling to do this so, thanks to player feedback and DE's own data, corrections were put in place to help minimize the negative.

In essence, if negatively impacting other players is your style of play, then it should be eliminated or greatly reduced. DE, as the good people they are, wanted to at least meet everyone in the middle. It's just a shame that selfishness won't allow the middle ground to be met.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

My guess you don't play at lvl 200 steel path fissures or lvl 500 arbitrations 

That's the zone where critical thinking is needed. Running out of ammo at those levels means that the rest of your arsenal better be able to cope until you find ammo. This is hard mode for a reason. Ammo challenges shouldn't be left off the table. Besides, I use the probo cernos heavily in SP and one shot is way more than enough procs to let CO do its job. 

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 10 heures, Achlevius a dit :

I hear this often from the pro-AoE crowd, but how many game modes honestly benefit from AoE spam?

It's not really the kind of mission, but low level relic runs with AoE to finish faster the mission, Nekros+AoE to farm resources, AoE on Disruption or Interceptions to farm relics...

I don't use it, as I farm Steel Essence for Relics and I prefer (or prefered, as I almost don't farm anymore) farming with Nekros+Nidus infusion or Hydroid (with Augment mod).

In the past, some abilities that also uded to let players farm very fast were nerfed, even though some of them were not very used (some were extrmely used though) as Banshee's Sound Quake ( OP on interceptions), or Nyx Absorb (OP on Defense).

Il y a 10 heures, Achlevius a dit :

And there's a reason why players often run Speedva in Defense missions.  Even if you could kill all the enemies with a well-placed AoE shot, they don't all spawn at once anyway.

Speed Nova + Khora + AoE : that was vey used. but it was replaced by Speed Nova + Neutron Star + Archon Vitality.

That's why the best old method was Nyx Absorb with max range, wait to the enemies spawn and explode to kill everything very fast (even without using the old exploit).

 

Il y a 10 heures, Achlevius a dit :

And finally, Void Fissures: these missions, especially when played on Capture or Exterminate, can actually suffer from AoE spam, as killing enemies too quickly can lead to a scenario where not enough Void Traces drop.  Granted, this is a bug / balancing issue that DE needs to fix, but in it's current state, spamming AoE weapons in these game modes is foolhardy.

Eterminate has void Traces drop rate vey high. About Capture, that's why AoE was more used : a whole bunh of corrupted nuked in less than 1 second : you just need to run to the extraction while nuking everything around (It's exactly what Neutron Star + Archon Vitality is doing now and much better than AoE).

I understand your point and I think your are right in many ways and I agree with many things you said, but I also think, based on my own experience, that AoE really make it faster to farm resources (Nekors+AoE, or Hydroid+AoE), to farm relics on Disruptions (Prime Access relics) and Interceptions 5Prime Access), on Open Worlds bounties (Aya - previously, it was the Prime Vault relics), to finish faster some low level Relic Runs (Disruptions, Captures, Exterminations).