Stat Sticks and their Rivens are Illogical, Abusive, and Should be Banned

[(PSN)RuTweN]

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I'm not interested in the bit about people getting expensive rivens and getting to do more damage or whatnot, and I don't think most of the thread is. I unveiled and rolled my Kama riven myself, it's still dumb. The main issue with statsticks is that they have to be a tradeoff with the equipped melee. Whether the weapon is a decent one or a bad one with a riven, you're using a S#&$ty build you wouldn't be caught dead with otherwise, and that's the bit that's a problem. 

The stasticks are able to hold their own even in steel path due to amount of raw damage added to it.Is not comparable to a cobweb but can take down an enemy or two.

The trade off is simple a slot to boost an ability,it’s not a problem, you can choose not to do it you can still get damage out of it just not top damage.

On 2022-10-08 at 1:06 AM, George_PPS said:

Has anyone really thought about the "illogical" implementation of stat sticks? Was this an abusive "loophole"? Some players use 5/5 Rivens with their stat sticks to produce millions and millions of damages with their warframes' weapons. 

Yet you consider players abusing 5/5 rivens🤦‍♂️

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your response to that problem is that people are trying to have their cake and eat it too and they should just accept that builds mean making choices.

No,people are expecting these frames to have the same modding as the other 47 frames,as soon as they don’t get the maximum output with the minimum input they consider it a design issue.

You want power yet you are not willing to sacrifice for higher numbers which are irelevant since not a lot of people are doing endurance run and out of 3 only khora is suited for that kind of playstyle

 

4 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

But the thing is, no one ever intended this choice to be a part of the game design. It was inherited from exalted weapons, but those have all been reworked with their own builds now. And it's not consistent with anything else in the game, no other frame has abilities based on any other equipment, we don't have weird choices like making our secondary trash to make our primary work better, and each of these pieces of equipment and their builds works in its own separate little box.

Different classes, pseudo exalted are single casted ability while exalted weapons are literal weapons,claw/sword/fists/polearm/dual pistols/pistol they have stances and constant drain energy,different design.

You sacrifice melee for melee,you get a more powerful melee that costs energy, there is no scenario in a difficult mission where you have both your Cobweb melee and your whipclaw and choose to use your melee.

5 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Okay, I thought that the Gladiator set issue had been fixed for equipped melee because it had been directly addressed with Helios and didn't work on Wukong. It's nuts that it still arbitrarily works for the other three. Not that any exalted melee needs a nerf, but it sure would be nice to see that go away in a rework. 

The fix was for gladiator mods on sentinel weapon,as they were providing 30% extra CC without any downsides.

At any point there was no mention about gladiator mods not working on melee,is just that now you get to thrash your weapon is order to get extra Cc on exalted.

 

Excluding Baruuk the other exalted are outclassed by normal melee so might be a personal preference but i’d rather keep the pseudo exalted as they are since they represent the whole identity for those frames and changing them will just make them worse

[R4bbit0le]

On 2022-10-07 at 11:06 PM, George_PPS said:

and take away other players' fun just because only few % of players have such top builds with top Rivens.

How are the builds of the other players taking away your fun in a Co-Op PvE environment that you can experience solo? 

[CopperBezel]

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Not sure where you're getting that from, plenty of people have suggested this.

Not in this thread. RuTweN's first reply was based on the false dichotomy that the abilities could either work they way they do now, or be exalted weapons, ignoring that suggestions like yours exist. 

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

That said, there's room for both. You stopped a sentence short of how to do it:

Give Khora/Gara/Atlas a moddable copy of their Pseudo-Exalted Ability, which holds all the mods for that ability. If no melee weapon is equipped then this also becomes the frame's default melee weapon, like on Garuda. Then the people who like Whipclaw/Shattered Lash/Landslide can continue using those abilities, and the people who for whatever reason want another whip/sword/gauntlet can have that too.

I stopped a sentence short because I don't like this part of the idea very much. Don't get me wrong, it's a much better alternative to what we have, because it would indicate in the arsenal what was happening and then give you the option of equipping a melee that wasn't crippled, and maybe that's all reason enough for it. It's probably the most parsimonious solution in terms of using mechanics that are already well established precedents in the game and very logically consistent. I just don't like that if the innate weapon (the term for DE used for Garuda's claws) is a statstick, we're giving people the option of not equipping a melee weapon so that they can have exactly the problem these frame have now. Like, I get it, it just feels weird to give the player that suboptimal option.

2 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

No,people are expecting these frames to have the same modding as the other 47 frames,as soon as they don’t get the maximum output with the minimum input they consider it a design issue.

Imagine that, people want the game to be consistent. There isn't a reason for these three frames to need to be built differently from the other 47, they're not being punished for something, and they wouldn't suddenly become meta if they were allowed to use melee normally, it's just a dumb old oversight. 

And this whole, waahhhh people want all the powers, give me godrolled riven free DE whatever nonsense, it's just #*!%ing irrelevant. If the design is bad, you can't defend it by just accusing people who want it changed of being entitled little S#&$s and telling them they should be happy with a bad design. And again, if anything it's the opposite to me - I have my perfect riven, I made it myself, my Khora is already supreme, and I'm saying it's a dumb mechanic and needs to be binned because of its severe and illogical effect on gameplay. If DE finally puts this beaten horse down, you and I will both be losing our special maximum effort builds. 

But maybe it's unreasonable for me to expect you to be able to look at the system objectively and recognize the poor design if you're so deeply invested.

3 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Yet you consider players abusing 5/5 rivens🤦‍♂️

I can't tell what this sentence means, it's missing a clause, but you're responding to a quote from George_PPS in the original post, in between two quotes from me. Did you lose track of who you were responding to there?

[(NSW)freedycurie]

Il y a 18 heures, CopperBezel a dit :

The only abilities that now work this way now are Whipclaw, Landslide, and Shattered Lash, again, the real topic of this thread.

And also Excalibur's Slash Dash.

[CopperBezel]

True, anytime that Exalted Blade isn't active.

[iHaku]

On 2022-10-08 at 7:51 AM, PublikDomain said:

But isn't this more due to the Riven system itself being inherently unfair

how is it unfair? other players dont have different dice than you. you all roll the same one when you open rivens, you can all do the same thing to make platinum and reroll using kuva. the riven system is inherently fair with respect to peoples time and resources spent.

the exception could be swiping for plat and buying rivens with that, but then you're opening yourself up to have a meaningless discussion about platinum being unfair because you can spend real world currency for it, which is actually unfair.

[Frendh]

1 hour ago, iHaku said:

how is it unfair? other players dont have different dice than you. you all roll the same one when you open rivens, you can all do the same thing to make platinum and reroll using kuva. the riven system is inherently fair with respect to peoples time and resources spent.

Agree.

1 hour ago, iHaku said:

the exception could be swiping for plat and buying rivens with that, but then you're opening yourself up to have a meaningless discussion about platinum being unfair because you can spend real world currency for it, which is actually unfair.

Disagree. You can either put in the hours in game and get plat or you can put in the hours in real life and get the plat. It is completely fair.

[iHaku]

13 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Disagree. You can either put in the hours in game and get plat or you can put in the hours in real life and get the plat. It is completely fair.

except that 1 hour doesnt equate to one hour for different people.

is it fair to be born in a poor country with lower wages vs in a rich country? no amount of hard work is gonna get you out of poverty in a poor country. is it fair to be born rich and having thousands of dollars to throw at an online game? its not. real life is inherently not fair because we arent all born under the same circumstances.

[Frendh]

1 minute ago, iHaku said:

is it fair to be born in a poor country with lower wages vs in a rich country? 

Yes.  No one gets to decide where they are born.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

There is zero content in this game that requires Rivens. Your statstick will still work fine without them. Whipclaw will not work fine without statstick mods, take away its mods and it's now another useless throwaway "Damage 1" that doesn't scale, like Razor Gyre or Soul Punch. If you want to do away with statsticks without completely killing Whipclaw and the like, they would need to be reworked as a properly moddable Exalted weapon. I'd argue there are a lot more Warframe skills that should scale with statstick mods or be reworked into a moddable Exalted weapon, like the aforementioned skills, Wisp 4, Chroma 1, etc.

[(PSN)RuTweN]

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Not in this thread. RuTweN's first reply was based on the false dichotomy that the abilities could either work they way they do now, or be exalted weapons, ignoring that suggestions like yours exist. 

I stopped a sentence short because I don't like this part of the idea very much. Don't get me wrong, it's a much better alternative to what we have, because it would indicate in the arsenal what was happening and then give you the option of equipping a melee that wasn't crippled, and maybe that's all reason enough for it. It's probably the most parsimonious solution in terms of using mechanics that are already well established precedents in the game and very logically consistent. I just don't like that if the innate weapon (the term for DE used for Garuda's claws) is a statstick, we're giving people the option of not equipping a melee weapon so that they can have exactly the problem these frame have now. Like, I get it, it just feels weird to give the player that suboptimal option.

Imagine that, people want the game to be consistent. There isn't a reason for these three frames to need to be built differently from the other 47, they're not being punished for something, and they wouldn't suddenly become meta if they were allowed to use melee normally, it's just a dumb old oversight. 

And this whole, waahhhh people want all the powers, give me godrolled riven free DE whatever nonsense, it's just #*!%ing irrelevant. If the design is bad, you can't defend it by just accusing people who want it changed of being entitled little S#&$s and telling them they should be happy with a bad design. And again, if anything it's the opposite to me - I have my perfect riven, I made it myself, my Khora is already supreme, and I'm saying it's a dumb mechanic and needs to be binned because of its severe and illogical effect on gameplay. If DE finally puts this beaten horse down, you and I will both be losing our special maximum effort builds. 

But maybe it's unreasonable for me to expect you to be able to look at the system objectively and recognize the poor design if you're so deeply invested.

I can't tell what this sentence means, it's missing a clause, but you're responding to a quote from George_PPS in the original post, in between two quotes from me. Did you lose track of who you were responding to there?

Forum interface on phone is pretty weird and didn’t saw that user name

 

It’s not about being invested,It’s about having variation,different approaches to skills and skill expresion, choosing to play one of these 3 is not a punishement…why everyone acts like DE forces you play atlas,khora or gara more than 10 min in ESO….Don’t like their design pick something else

You don’t need rivens on any of these 3 to run them properly and don’t need to use a bad weapon if you’re not planning on maximize the output.

These 3 frames have something that none of the other 47 frames have, a learning curve…but in a game where players have the attention span of a goldfish with alzheimer this is seen as being bad

Even if DE changes it,i will reroll on Baruuk and use the max initial combo furax riven to get permanent red crits and wait for the next series of posts where people will complain about how statsticks are ruining their PVE experience because they can’t get red crits…wait this will be with Baruuk’s Prime access

 

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, iHaku said:

how is it unfair? other players dont have different dice than you. you all roll the same one when you open rivens, you can all do the same thing to make platinum and reroll using kuva. the riven system is inherently fair with respect to peoples time and resources spent.

Sorry, I should've said "inherently unequal". OP's complaint is that Rivens give some players stats that others don't, and therefore Rivens shouldn't apply to stat-sticks because of that inequality. But that's a problem with Rivens as a whole, not just with their application to stat-sticks, because there's no way to get those stats yourself without being lucky or paying money for it. While we do all roll the same dice, some players actually get something from those dice while others don't. So it's "fair", but it's not always equitable. And when it comes to player power, isn't "power you can't reasonably get yourself without paying money for it" generally frowned upon in gaming?

6 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I just don't like that if the innate weapon (the term for DE used for Garuda's claws) is a statstick, we're giving people the option of not equipping a melee weapon so that they can have exactly the problem these frame have now. Like, I get it, it just feels weird to give the player that suboptimal option.

How so? Maybe I could have explained it better, but imagine if DE just made Pseudo-Exalted Abilities directly moddable: they'd get an entry at the end of your Arsenal just like Exalted Weapons got back in 2018, and the mods for Whipclaw/Landslide/Shattered Lash would always pull from this slot regardless of the weapon (or lack of weapon) you pick as a melee. There'd be no choice of not using this. With the Combo Counter completely separated and buffs made to offset the loss of that and Rivens, we'd end up with these abilities about as powerful as they are today, but with complete freedom over your Focus school and your melee/how you use it and no inequity between the haves and have-nots when it comes to Rivens.

And in that case you're going to have a slot in your Arsenal with a bunch of melee mods on it that's only being used for your ability. So if someone wants to use those melee mods for a special innate melee weapon, why not let them? Though I guess if DE were to add something like that there's no reason they couldn't just make a separate moddable Pseudo-Exalted Ability and a moddable innate weapon, so maybe it's not even necessary.

[iHaku]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

And when it comes to player power, isn't "power you can't reasonably get yourself without paying money for it" generally frowned upon in gaming?

you can get it yourself tho without paying real world money. just gotta be smart with your trades and /or spend a lot of time playing the game.

[PublikDomain]

39 minutes ago, iHaku said:

you can get it yourself tho without paying real world money. just gotta be smart with your trades and /or spend a lot of time playing the game.

Plat is still money, whether it's yours or someone else's. And the key word was "reasonably". While it's true you can get any Riven with any set of specific stats on your own, the amount of time that takes means it's not likely to actually happen. You could spend years unveiling and rerolling Rivens and still never find what you're looking for. "Pay money or grind for years" doesn't sound very reasonable to me for a single item to power up a single ability. But I guess this is still besides my main point: this ultimately stems from the Riven system's mechanics and not from stat-sticks. Stat-sticks don't cause the problems outlined in the OP, Rivens do. Stat-sticks are just old and confusing and can lead to negative behaviours. They should still be done away with, just not because Rivens exist.

[CopperBezel]

5 hours ago, Frendh said:

Yes.  No one gets to decide where they are born.

More to the point, there's a one in a million chance of a thread suddenly taking off and influencing DE to rework something, but there's substantially less chance that a discussion on this forum is going to result in someone rebalancing life. 

4 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

There is zero content in this game that requires Rivens. Your statstick will still work fine without them. Whipclaw will not work fine without statstick mods, take away its mods and it's now another useless throwaway "Damage 1" that doesn't scale, like Razor Gyre or Soul Punch. If you want to do away with statsticks without completely killing Whipclaw and the like, they would need to be reworked as a properly moddable Exalted weapon. I'd argue there are a lot more Warframe skills that should scale with statstick mods or be reworked into a moddable Exalted weapon, like the aforementioned skills, Wisp 4, Chroma 1, etc.

I agree with most of that. I don't think the only options are statsticks as they are and exalted, though. I like PublikDomain's suggestion of an innate statstick. Just off the top, that'd mean no rivens but no need for a combo timer mod in the statstick build, so it sounds like a breakeven change in Khora's case without adjusting anything else. There's a limit to how much could be done wrong or what balancing would be needed. It would be a pretty tidy fix.

Damage abilities that don't have statsticks ... well, there are a handful that have the right multipliers set up the right way and do really well, like Blaze Artillery. Accumulating Whipclaw itself uses a very similar scaling method: the more numerous the mobs and the more actual hits they survive, the stronger it gets (much like the melee counter itself,) so it starts weak and only gets stronger if it meets some resistance. But it's certainly not enough by itself. All the former statstick abilities would have to have some additional layer of scaling built into them. (Worth saying too that a Whipclaw that doesn't scale on melee mods wouldn't be starting at 300 damage, but I bet it wouldn't be starting north of 1500, either.) 

Ideally, I'd rather have every damage ability be as smart as Blaze Artillery, and have none of them use weapon mods. But right now, I'd keep the current statsticks over the chances of DE pulling that off for Whipclaw / Shattered Lash / Landslide.

Exalteds though - bleh. Just bleh.

(S#&$, I saw "Razor Gyre" and had to look it up because I was thinking, "wait, am I confusing Gyre's 1 and 4? I thought that one was called Anode Sphere or something" because I thought you meant Arcsphere, because I forgot that Caliban happened. Because Caliban is what happens when damage abilities don't scale. 😭)

4 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

These 3 frames have something that none of the other 47 frames have, a learning curve…but in a game where players have the attention span of a goldfish with alzheimer this is seen as being bad

Look, you're trying to spin this as a positive feature, and it's just not. There's no "learning curve" involved in setting up a statstick build. No matter how much you characterize players as whining, demanding toddlers who just want everything their way (which a lot of players are!) it doesn't make this a good design idea. It's extra steps that don't add anything. 

4 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

choosing to play one of these 3 is not a punishement…

I meant what I said, I didn't say the player was being punished, it's like punishing the frames themselves. Like it makes them slightly less desirable as an option in the way that the ammo rework made some launchers less desirable, except that was intentional and this isn't. 

If we wanted to punish players we'd force them to play Ivara

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And in that case you're going to have a slot in your Arsenal with a bunch of melee mods on it that's only being used for your ability. So if someone wants to use those melee mods for a special innate melee weapon, why not let them? 

Yeah, you're right, this is not an important detail for me to quibble over. If people want to use the innate statsticks as weapons, nobody's troubled, and DE already has the weapon models from the abilities now and the normal melee stances to slot them into, so it's not a big lift. 

[Morteno]

On 2022-10-17 at 8:45 AM, R4bbit0le said:

How are the builds of the other players taking away your fun in a Co-Op PvE environment that you can experience solo? 

Simple. Because S#&$ gets "balanced" around top-end and popularity (and whatever notion the fickle pablo is following atm).

So, it is or certainly should be the concern of everyone. Bars gets raised because of top dps. And "wildly out of control" dps/damage happens because of bad design. "mitigation", "dynamic DR" or whetever you want to call it gets turned up to extremes because of it. Even so they (unsurprisingly) do that poorly too. Kuva hek cheese anyone?
Example, I do not follow meta setups, but I can do most stuff. Most. And really not SP in any meaningful way.
However, if it was not for voidrigs 4, my capacity to participate in eidolon fights would be limited to a little shield tickling with the amp. Meanwhile I keep hearing about how people claim to one or 2-shot their vulnerable parts. It's preposterous, given how little I see any of my weapons do and how many shots the voidrig-4 needs to land.

Lets take a different twist. How do you feel about normal wukong users? Because, they got shat on.
Because some clumsy heavyhanded nerfs to bring down a segment that was using wuclone+bigpewaoe for semi-afk on SP or whatever it was? And I genuinely ask that. Was it something else? A chance to score some points with the public by having a go at a unpopular group? With the usual, 'not my problem' attitude to the fallout and "unintended casualties".
I don't hear people letting them use the 'what is it to you, you can just play solo pve' excuse?
Normal wukong user were actually already using it to play solo, because it is solo-friendly, specially if you are not on the top or meta wagon. Apart from a few farm nodes, most of the chart you are alone anyway, so it becomes a solid pick when you want to take some of the pressure away and can't be sure you get players joining in.

The only times I really resorted to zarr-kong'ing, and sometimes bramma-kong, was when in the drift and vaults. And a little in kuva survival. Those places are ridiculous if you do not follow meta. In the drift even my maxed out kuva grattler voidrig struggles badly on anything but the 40-or-below bounties and tier-1 vault.
But now, due to ammoshare and brainchange and damage halving, the wu-clone is of no worthwhile use anywhere beyond maybe ceres or mars. To spell it out for you: not worthwhile = a pick so far below other options, or so weak/unreliable/detrimental, that it makes no sense to take it. It is not reliable and it does not deliver. It wastes ammo worse than the greenest of noobs, leaving one of you with no output. That is, when it actually does anything at all, because it has targetting issues.

Sure, sometimes, in widely open, open world areas, with plenty of line of sight and things spawning close by (inside a certain radius) and no distant enemies around, you can get a little use out of it. Meanign the lowest bounties in cetuts and fortuna. But even then, it is not reliable. Forget about it indoors, grineer play smarter.
It has been reduced to a slowly reacting melee sidekick (you can not trust it with any non-endless-ammo weapon that matters) and does not even do a good job at this, while you must take care not to ever melee yourself if you carry something ammo-sensitive. Can't you see the insanity? You have to actively limit youself, so the poop-flinger does not waste your precious ammo.

Which btw also broke the fun-run builds, where you might put Talon or the glasscannon on the monkey to watch lowlevel corpses fly all over the place while you stand back and laugh at the feeble enemies getting rekt cartoon style by a really triggerhappy monkey.
Obvious lowhanging fruit, like giving it its own ammo pool, oh no, that is too complicated, it (the cone-of-fire spreading, leadfoot-trigger) has to share spend your ammo pool. It's similar to a twist on the awful RJ "solution". Remember that, have to plug the big-ass spaceship into your warframe to power it, with no respect for the consequences of energy bar limits.
"So, uh, just reuse the warframes energybar ammocounter for the railjack wuclone, cba to do this properly". Getting the picture? Wrong people are still calling the shots.
 

[(PSN)RuTweN]

On 2022-10-17 at 11:49 PM, CopperBezel said:

Look, you're trying to spin this as a positive feature, and it's just not. There's no "learning curve" involved in setting up a statstick build. No matter how much you characterize players as whining, demanding toddlers who just want everything their way (which a lot of players are!) it doesn't make this a good design idea. It's extra steps that don't add anything.

Does any of the people who make these posts or pull these kind of solutions for DE to implement actualy play these frames(Khora is excluded) to understand them?

Excluding Khora did ayone looked over to Atlas or Gara exalted?,those can’t be standardized and hope for the sake of the people who enjoy those frames as they are that this topic and the other “rework stasticks” will remained unnoticed

All 3 frames are in a good state with their unique playstyles they are being used and played, riven issue is universal not statstick related(related to OP), so why push for a change that will most likely turn those frames(excluding Khora) in a new Hydroid by finding ways to limit the build paths?

 

Talking about learning curve,You can build crit Gara ffs…and be viable

 

Thing is De could have done this when Gara and Khora was added, yet they didn’t changed it…think for ansecond who would use dumb rivens if no stastick ability exist? The list would be either 0.50 or 1.50

Just because tou don’t understand it…doesn’t mean is wrong and needs to be changed

[-BellaMuerte-]

There are more important things in game that need to be looked at....

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, (PSN)RuTweN said:

Does any of the people who make these posts or pull these kind of solutions for DE to implement actualy play these frames(Khora is excluded) to understand them?

Excluding Khora did ayone looked over to Atlas or Gara exalted?,those can’t be standardized and hope for the sake of the people who enjoy those frames as they are that this topic and the other “rework stasticks” will remained unnoticed

If you'd like to argue with someone who's suggesting these three frames get exalted weapons, I recommend you find that person and quote them. If you are going to quote me, then try responding to the thing you quoted, or at least to something I suggested. And in general, if you're going to accuse players of being lazy or me (I think?) of failing to understand something, take the effort to actually read and understand what you're responding to.

[cute_moth.npc]

I have to give it to the OP, they've been reeling in people with one troll thread after another ^^

[George_PPS]

4 hours ago, VieniSu said:

There are more important things in game that need to be looked at....

The game is still very “unbalanced”. Everywhere you go you see players using abusive builds and exploitive play styles to speed up farming and missions tremendously. That’s not how the game should be played based on current trend. More nerfs are needed on many more things. It’s the No. 1 priority now if you can see it. 

1 hour ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I have to give it to the OP, they've been reeling in people with one troll thread after another ^^

Thank you. 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

To counter OP statsticks only work only when you mod properly. You sacrifice usable melee slot to stat stick.

By same logic all frames who require less input to be good should get removed. :) Wisp, rhino, wukong, etc. They dont require as much moding to be great as other frame who require bit more work till gears start spin making them into powerhouse.

Id say  that all  exalted melee or pseudo exalted(ones who gets boost from stat sticks) would require their own modable tab if pseudo melee, or just all the exalted weps do gain benefits of statsticking. But then again it would create more disbalance in power sector of frame abilities.

 

Name frames who benefits from stat sticks and their place in most used frames.  That be enough to see how widely used they are vs how other frames w/o statsticking still outperforms them with their  ability kit and weapon synergy

[(XBOX)WayAlpha]

Joy sucker. Build a bridge and get over it, all their builds work fine without a stat stick riven, I think OP is just butthurt as f**k about the rivens, and wants to ruin everyone elses day because of it. If DE insists on following these sort of stupid as f**k joy-leeching hot takes by piss poor players who don't actually care about other players, then it'll only continue to drive away existing players.

[(XBOX)WayAlpha]

On 2022-10-17 at 2:45 PM, R4bbit0le said:

How are the builds of the other players taking away your fun in a Co-Op PvE environment that you can experience solo? 

I'd garner a guess and say that it's called ; jealousy at not having what others have = toxic mentality.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Most normal damage abilities don't scale well enough to deal with even sortie 3 level enemies.  Stat sticks allow actual scaling to higher level enemies.  Without that scaling, Khora, Atlas, Mesa and more drop down massively in terms of scaling.  You're asking for a massive nerf and you don't even have any kind of reasonable argument for it.  Just "I don't like thing."