afer being forced to play loki in circuit..

[_Anise_]

is this a bad take?

passive  does literally nothing!, no one in warframe is hanging around on walls for minutes ? It's a niche situation to even need to stick to a wall for a few seconds.

decoy also does nothing (without augments) no reason to use it, actually might alert enemies which you don't want when you're stealth ? I mean I get that it's a switch teleport target but it seems situational at best and (see teleport below)

invisibility seems legit, nothing really to complain about here , move along.

teleport  fun but extremely situational, also I don't know why his teleport can't just teleport him to where he is pointing if he has no target ?

Radial disarm the invisible frame that will never get shot at has an Ultimate ability to disarm enemies to make it so he can never get shot at! who designed this ?

augments

safeguard switch, this could literally be built into teleport to give it an actual reason to be used, augment makes teleport better! (iframe, stats cleanse)

savior decoy, similar to above, it would give you a reason to always put decoy down somewhere (out of the way) if this function was built into the skill!  makes decoy not useless. (at the same time attracts fire so not reliable in case of emergency?)

deceptive bond,  could have situational use for rage builds? makes loki a little more tanky out of stealth? gold star!? augment not required but enables alternative playstyles

Irradiating disarm, having played a bunch of ivara it seems a bad idea to radproc all enemies around you?, so the base and augmented versions of this ability do not fit ?

overall he seems usable because stealth is just that good but a lot of his tools seem either situational or pointless!

Edited April 29, 2023 by _Anise_

[Raarsi]

4 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

is this a bad take?

Nope.  If anything, it sorta just points out the obvious with him.  It's also why I max him out on duration and energy use while running the Invisibility augment since it's easier just to keep him perma-stealthed.

Passive could be changed to something more along the lines of a failsafe measure like "when health falls below 20%, Loki becomes invisible for 6 seconds and leaves a Decoy behind".

Decoy I think needs to either spawn multiple decoys spread out or have something that actually deals damage and maybe come with increased threat (if DE can make it work with Styanax's 3, then they can make it work for Decoy too).

Teleport I also think should work as a "go where you're aiming" ability, and maybe have the current "swap with enemy" effect being the augment for it.

Radial disarm I think was intended to serve as offensive support for helping allies, although this merely shows the age of the frame since it's easier just to kill enemies instead.  A better alternative would be something along the lines of spawning explosive decoys, but that's just my view, and there could probably be better (or at least more interesting) ideas.

[Harutomata]

Loki is an outdated frame, and he has a purpose which is, well, mostly spy missions. There are ways you can use eclipse on him for more damage, but even with helminth as a bandaid he's overall not a very versatile frame. Many frames excel at a specific kind of content, which makes sense, that's how warframe works, but Loki's uses still seem very limited in comparison.
His kit mostly shines in spy missions too. You can use decoy and switch teleport to bypass lasers in lack of a mod like Ivara's Infiltrate, which would be nicer if you could use the decoy in a way it doesn't shoot, since if there are enemies around it's counterintuitive to use this combination.
I also saw people use teleport on bounties to make targets move faster, and I've been also using Loki for conservation.
Passive? Really not all that useful. So yeah, Loki really has rather niche uses.

Many frames are in need of a rework and hopefully DE realizes that. We got Grendel and Yareli reworks, so hopefully they do. Hydroid, Limbo, Nyx, Frost, Inaros, Chroma all could use changes, especially since few of those frames are CC related and they weren't designed at the time they released with the idea in mind that there would be CC immune enemies.
(As usual, I'm expecting "warframe reworks are not profitable" replies. Guess what? People would buy more plat to trade for those frames' primes if they were better and maybe even buy regal aya for Prime Resurgences.)

[_Anise_]

17 minutes ago, Harutomata said:

I also saw people use teleport on bounties to make targets move faster,

that is a decent point, I have seen them do it too ! it is useful but also like you say he seems to have niche uses, once you are past the open world content islands... well escort missions don't exist outside of the open world!

edit:I lied there is that one where you have to guide the greener defectors! but people usually just take wisp, having to teleport pull those guys over and over seems like it might be annoying!

I did read at one point he could move defense targets around which confused the heck out of the AI and made it so he could cheese defense type objectives !

29 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

Radial disarm I think was intended to serve as offensive support for helping allies

I was considering mentioning this but then I thought ... like why would anyone need to disarm/radproc a room of enemies over melting them with a BFG? xD even in steel path !! radial radiation disarm only makes enemies drop grenades or aoe gunk that can hit an invisible loki in the face!!

Edited April 29, 2023 by _Anise_

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

Radial disarm the invisible frame that will never get shot at has an Ultimate ability to disarm enemies to make it so he can never get shot at! who designed this ?

It's pretty good for Defense, and Excavation, so it rounds out his kit a bit even though it's been overshadowed by other frame mass CCs.   It also makes more sense in situations where (ranged) enemies are actually a threat, which is not the case  for a lot of players in most of the game.  Even then, one of the fastest ways to do easy object Defenses is to have a Loki, a Speedva, and one or two nukers.  Enemies move much more quickly to the center when they're not stopping to shoot and reload.

It's sort of ironic that you brought this topic up  because you ended up with him in Circuit though.   Because for the first time in years, I"m reading a lot of complaints about object Defense being hard, in SP anyway.      I haven't gotten Loki yet for Circuit or even seen anybody else use him, but I'd be pretty happy to have my RD build available.

Like I said, there are other CC abilities that overshadow it now, and it could definitely do with some improvements.  One thing that comes immediately to mind is making its disarm work through Overguard, which several other disarms do.   This would give it a better niche.    It'd be nice if it also debuffed enemies like infested that can't be disarmed.

I barely use the augment, and you're right irradiated enemies are actually more dangerous to Loki.  But it is a more natural fit alongside his Switch Tele augment.   A lot of people will scoff at using two augments in general, but he's got more space for them than most frames IMO.

 

[Althaline]

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

passive  does literally nothing!, no one in warframe is hanging around on walls for minutes ? It's a niche situation to even need to stick to a wall for a few seconds.

Please don't remove this, I need it for my incredibly niche riven-clearing build.

[_Anise_]

13 minutes ago, Althaline said:

I need it for my incredibly niche riven-clearing build

I know you're joking but anytime I get that one I just get saryn to spread her diseases then cling to the wall for a second and wait for it all to die ^^

[Birdframe_Prime]

Steel Path Circuit Loki did something that I didn't believe possible; Irradiating Disarm saved the Defense objective when my team didn't have any defensive frames.

Having enemies stripped of their range on Defense? Peak. Having all the disarmed enemies turn around and start attacking each other instead of the objective? Amazing. Having Overguard enemies that are proof against Loki's abilities all suddenly turn around and attack irradiated enemies instead? Superb.

This gave us all the time in the world to go and actually kill things. The few enemies that didn't get distracted were easy to clean up.

Honestly, getting pushed to other frames has really forced me to see what my old builds could really do.

[Cryoxiis]

FYI the augment for Teleport (Safeguard Switch) scales with duration - that includes the iframes. On a high duration build you can achieve ~10s of iframes and is re-castable with zero cooldown

[Qriist]

I've played a few runs as Shadow Stalker in Duviri. This is what Loki wants to be.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

He’s been aging like milk for years. You’re just posting more proof of that.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

I will agree that Loki's kit could be tweaked to be made more practical and useful.  The decoy is actually amazing for the 3 seconds it can survive before even the most basic low lovel enemy destroys it.  It should have no health associated with it and should just be a Timer.  It's a hologram type projection so how is it taking damage in the first place.  It will attract every enemy to it instantly upon cast so it is good just not as effective if you have to recast it constantly to make it work.  The switch teleport is niche and should be replaced with something useful in any situation not just a Razorback Armada attack.  

If you put Ensnare on Loki with a Max range build ( it will make his Power Strength low like 40% but Loki doesn't require any to be effective) you can lock down an entire room of enemies (minus the Eximus with overguard or Nullie's) with ease as you are invisible.  Ensnare works on Acolytes and Demolysts too, even if brief.  It makes Loki very useful for the entire squad to clump every enemy up and unable to move for a decent amount of time.  Ensnare can be recast at any time and is cheap/efficient in energy costs along with the default time and range make it viable for use.

The Disarm power sounds useless but it is quite effective at making dire situations more manageable when you don't  want to be sprayed with bullets from multiple Gorgon or any other enemy that shoots.  Even Infested Disarm works upon as it will knock down any infested within the huge radius it effects.

With Ensnare on my Loki I have come to appreciate him more and he's relevant for use anywhere in the game.  My personal opinion of course but I highly recommend trying it out!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Pakaku]

Disarming and invisibility is perfectly viable. He's obviously an older frame, but I wouldn't exactly consider him the worst pick (or I guess in this case, lack of picking?)

[Raarsi]

42 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

He's obviously an older frame, but I wouldn't exactly consider him the worst pick (or I guess in this case, lack of picking?)

That is true.  I mean, Inaros still exists.

[ImWithDerp]

Not that there's a shortage of Loki rework ideas, but:

Passive:

• Keep wall latch duration for flavor (and riven challenges)
• Borrow some of Stalker's 'damage against unaware enemies'

Decoy:

• Decoy is invulnerable and converts incoming attacks to pickups for Loki and his allies
• Pickups are weighted to what Loki currently needs like the Kubrow Dig precept

Invisibility:

• For a bit of extra synergy with Loki's passive, the duration pauses while wall latched

Switch Teleport:

• When used on an enemy it becomes a potent grouping tool, teleporting all enemies in a radius around the target to your start location, radius scales with both ability range and how far your target is away from you
• All enemies teleported are briefly stunned
• Using it on an ally grants them invulnerability without requiring the augment
• The augment now grants Loki invulnerability whether he teleports an enemy or an ally
• Not sure if status cleanse should be innate or should be kept on the augment (keeping it on the augment means the other innate properties of Switch Teleport can be stronger)

Radial Disarm:

• Since armor stripping/bypass (like slash procs) are so important in high level missions, Radial Disarm now perma-strips armor on all affected targets
• Can be tapped to cast around Loki or held to cast around a target enemy, to help with reaching enemies clustered up by the new Switch Teleport
• Targets also have reduced damage against Loki's allies (NOT against other enemies) for a few seconds, so it has some benefit against enemies without weapons

Edited May 7, 2023 by ImWithDerp

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

1 hour ago, ImWithDerp said:

Not that there's a shortage of Loki rework ideas, but:

Passive:

• Keep wall latch duration for flavor (and riven challenges)
• Borrow some of Stalker's 'damage against unaware enemies'

Decoy:

• Decoy is invulnerable and converts incoming attacks to pickups for Loki and his allies
• Pickups are weighted to what Loki currently needs like the Kubrow Dig precept

Invisibility:

• For a bit of extra synergy with Loki's passive, the duration pauses while wall latched

Switch Teleport:

• When used on an enemy it becomes a potent grouping tool, teleporting all enemies in a radius around the target to your start location, radius scales with both ability range and how far your target is away from you
• All teleported are briefly stunned
• Using it on an ally grants them invulnerability without requiring the augment
• The augment now grants Loki invulnerability whether he teleports an enemy or an ally
• Not sure if status cleanse should be innate or should be kept on the augment (keeping it on the augment means the other innate properties of Switch Teleport can be stronger)

Radial Disarm:

• Since armor stripping/bypass (like slash procs) are so important in high level missions, Radial Disarm now perma-strips armor on all affected targets
• Can be tapped to cast around Loki or held to cast around a target enemy, to help with reaching enemies clustered up by the new Switch Teleport
• Targets also have reduced damage against Loki's allies (NOT against other enemies) for a few seconds, so it has some benefit against enemies without weapons

Nice job on the Loki Rework ideas, I like all your suggestions so sign me up! Lol  It might be easier to push any armor-stripping thru if instead of perma-strip it's on a timer like Frost's Avalanche, where it's duration based.  I like the idea of the Wall Latch pausing the Invisibility, as it would give people more incentive to utilize his passive! Maybe even have Loki gain an extra second of Invisibility for every second he latches  Keep up the good work,  Kudos!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Arcticblizzard]

I know on paper that Loki looks weak. When you are playing him and judging based on how each skill works, they each seem subpar compared to many other frames. However, I seem to find that when faced with a difficult challenge, he is one of my goto frames. All of his abilities together work great. 

Also, if Loki was so bad, then why is he so high on the usage statistics. Regular Loki is almost with the primes. Please take a look for your selves: Warframe 2022 usage .

I am not saying he is perfect. Some adjustments some of you are suggesting would be nice. I do not believe he is in need of a rework. 

Thank you for your time and I look forward to constructive criticism and discussion.

[Mazifet]

He needs to be reworked. Even hydroid has some use in farming stuff with his augment, or inaros in hijack. Only things loki has going for him are his 2nd, which just makes you invisible, and then his 4rth which is a mediocre cc ability.

[-Ryuurei-]

On 2023-04-29 at 6:22 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Steel Path Circuit Loki did something that I didn't believe possible; Irradiating Disarm saved the Defense objective when my team didn't have any defensive frames.

Having enemies stripped of their range on Defense? Peak. Having all the disarmed enemies turn around and start attacking each other instead of the objective? Amazing. Having Overguard enemies that are proof against Loki's abilities all suddenly turn around and attack irradiated enemies instead? Superb.

This gave us all the time in the world to go and actually kill things. The few enemies that didn't get distracted were easy to clean up.

Honestly, getting pushed to other frames has really forced me to see what my old builds could really do.

You should look into replacing Switch Teleport with Banish. It allows you make Decoy actually viable and incredibly good at drawing fire away from objectives.

[Sloth45]

Loki was added from the start of the game- Back when warframes had to pick up Stamina Orbs to sprint and wallrun. Needless to say, the game has changed since then, and loki has recieved zero (0) reworks or changes to keep up with it.

[Raarsi]

On 2023-05-02 at 9:36 AM, Arcticblizzard said:

Also, if Loki was so bad, then why is he so high on the usage statistics.

One word: stelf.

[Yamazuki]

Circuit has multiple defense objectives... and somehow disarming enemies is useless; there is also group content and not everyone would be invisible. He makes all of Circuit SP easy to do, defends just fine, and essentially can't die for the other objectives. The Wyrms, despite being 'bosses', are disabled by stealth too. Consider that DE keeps on finding ways to nerf CC, and Limbo has enemies that ignore even his defensive mechanic, but Stealth acts like a vastly superior form of CC with extremely low costs anytime the mission isn't centered around defending something.

[Tiltskillet]

On 5/3/2023 at 3:45 AM, -Ryuurei- said:

You should look into replacing Switch Teleport with Banish. It allows you make Decoy actually viable and incredibly good at drawing fire away from objectives.

I still haven't tried this--somehow I still don't have Banish subsumed-- although my understanding is it's really good.  But I'd have a hard time getting rid of Switch Teleport, largely because of its augment.  Doesn't it accomplish the same thing in a different way?  Takes an augment slot, much higher  maintenance...but personal invulnerability is kind of a big plus. 

[-Ryuurei-]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I still haven't tried this--somehow I still don't have Banish subsumed-- although my understanding is it's really good.  But I'd have a hard time getting rid of Switch Teleport, largely because of its augment.  Doesn't it accomplish the same thing in a different way?  Takes an augment slot, much higher  maintenance...but personal invulnerability is kind of a big plus. 

Pretty much exactly like you said. If you're using the build right there shouldn't be any AoE's left (disarm) to hit you while invis though, making the actual invulnerability for yourself less necessary. You also gain access to Banish's augment and general functionality, which can be useful for saving your teammates in a different way  but also regenerating energy for them.

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, -Ryuurei- said:

If you're using the build right there shouldn't be any AoE's left (disarm) to hit you while invis though, making the actual invulnerability for yourself less necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I think that's a good point.  It is excluding eximus though, among several other exceptions.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Tiltskillet