It takes almost half a year to collect all the incarnon adapters- Timegated FOMO is the wrong direction for WF

[(PSN)Unstar]

56 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

7 weeks if you can't play that week. Putting in a 7 week time gate then offering a paid solution is predatory. On their own, it's not a big deal but the time gate was put in place sell the incarnons. The thing is, I don't even have an issue with it, but seeing people defend these practices is asinine and shows a complete lack of unbiased criticism.

This is just my personal take, but I don't think it's meaningfully different than an early-game player who doesn't yet have access to a variety of content being able to buy Warframes or weapons before reaching the associated content.  I think that if we don't see that as predatory, we shouldn't see this as predatory either.  And if we do see that as predatory, then it's probably worth having a broader discussion of what constitutes fair monetization.

I feel like the main difference is that players on the bleeding edge aren't used to having any barriers between them and the content they want to farm.  And in this case, DE has made the launch of these new items all but perfectly line up with the week they'll be available, meaning that the vast majority of cutting edge players will immediately be able to get these items.

Regardless, DE is saying this is an experiment, and only the newest 5 items are on sale.  It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

Honestly, why not just make a Generic Adapter? You still make it drop 2 a week, on rank 5 and 10, but you could just use it on any of the candidate weapons. Remove the whole week rotation aspect out of the game. Make it where they can just throw new Incarnons in the pool and rotation be damned. Be easier for everyone and still somewhat maintains that stop gap that they would want. No FOMO, no burn out. Yeah you're at 2 but you can prioritize what you want in the beginning and if you're going to go for them all you're still free to pick and choose which ones you do first. Completionists will still have to spend time but at least the journey is will be easier and better when they can prioritize their favorites. Others can get theirs, be done or become invested by committing some effort in it.

fr. Two big weapon upgrades a week is a pretty solid pace and is far more generous than many other systems like Daily Tribute or Baro. Even Shards are pretty generously paced. But if you start missing weeks then the rotations suck, at 7 weeks now for Incarnons, and there's just no reason for that. And it's hard to deny that this isn't a problem when DE themselves give it as the whole reason they're adding the pay-to-skip in the first place. Just watch the devstream and how awkward the whole conversation around this is. Maybe they wouldn't have "painted [themselves] into a corner" if they just... didn't design these systems to have such rigid and untenable rotations?

Meanwhile in the patch notes they say they want to "offer players the option to pay-to-skip should they desire, while ensuring that the free acquisition path is not prohibitive for players". It's... kind of hard to not be prohibitive when it's a 6 week gap of dead air before you have something new to go for again. Even if you don't miss a week that's still a lot of empty space where there's going to be no main reward in the Circuit. And like every other one-and-done system in the past, what does that mean? Ghost towns! It's only a matter of time before it happens to the Circuit too, and for anyone keeping up that'll be as soon as September! And what happens when DE wants to add an 8th rotation? Or a 9th? Every time they add another it's another week to the rotation which will only get longer and longer with more and more dead air. And it's not like generic adapters somehow prevents them from offering a monetized pay-to-skip like they offer everywhere else. If anything it should make it easier, since players could buy Adapters for 35 different weapons instead of just 5.

With generic adapters there'd never be pressure to play a specific week lest you miss your shot and have to wait a month and a half for the next one, never create a problem when adding new sets, not produce doom and gloom over the FOMO, allow more to be monetized, and if unwanted adapters could be traded or exchanged for other items (like Pathos Clamps) then there'd always be a main reward to go for in the Circuit and be no reason for it to turn into a ghost town when the rewards run out. Generic adapters could only make this system better.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

Honestly, why not just make a Generic Adapter?

That's been requested since the beginning.  DE has probably calculated they can get the most time out of players, on average, by keeping the adapters specific.  Rather than all the non-completionists grinding a few, cherrypicking the best ones, and ditching the system after 2-4 weeks.  And perhaps the game if they were only drawn back  by the shiny new Incarnonage. 

So from that cynical point of view, most of the benefits you've suggested would look like downgrades to them.

I'm not saying they've calculated correctly.  It's possible the grind as set up is burning people out and producing the result DE wants to avoid.  I don't have any basis on which to judge which way it's going though.

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

This has to be a joke. What you are "just saying" is absolutely a personal skill issue and not the general consensus

Yes, all endgame content has skill issues until the player grows accustomed to the mechanics of the endgame. That's virtually every game and everything period. 

[WOLFtv]

i think there should be something else than incarnations for circuit, rewards or something fun not wasting time to get incarnations 

which gives bunch of issues, team mates leaving after onewave, bad gear, no good gear for solo ,bunch of useless rng decrees

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

16 hours ago, WOLFtv said:

i think there should be something else than incarnations for circuit, rewards or something fun not wasting time to get incarnations 

which gives bunch of issues, team mates leaving after onewave, bad gear, no good gear for solo ,bunch of useless rng decrees

Wait...have you played the Circuit? There are a lot of rewards. 

I'm beginning to think some of you are just on the whine train. 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Wait...have you played the Circuit? There are a lot of rewards. 

I'm beginning to think some of you are just on the whine train. 

I believe they want some generic options to pick instead of Incarnons, everyone will reach a point where you already have every incarnon so they want something else when choosing the rewards

[Kaiga]

On 2023-07-28 at 5:19 AM, SneakyErvin said:

And WF is constantly improving. 

This is a skeptical statement at best. 

While the new warframes that have been released post new war have been useful in terms of metagame strength, and their farms far more reasonable, the overall direction of the game since then has yeilded largely time gate-based content: duviri itself,  archon hunts, Kahl, kullervo, etc. which once completed are yet more one-and-done content islands who collect dust. 

I've read a lot of talk about an objective definition of meaningful content, so here's a very easy one: Content that gives players a reason to keep engaging with it once all of its unique collectibles have been earned, whether that be the fun of the mission, evergreen rewards in realistic amounts (none of these laughable 2000 credit bundles in steel path 400+ survival missions) or prestige rewards, special cosmetics that reflect a significant investment of time or effort, like the focus shop items or the Conclave sigils. Heck, leaderboards and rewards for speed run clear times would bring old content back to life.

This isn't particularly hard to figure out. Other games do it, warframe just has this predilection for creating content that is both the only source of something, and then gives you no reason to stick around once you have it.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Kaiga said:

This is a skeptical statement at best. 

While the new warframes that have been released post new war have been useful in terms of metagame strength, and their farms far more reasonable, the overall direction of the game since then has yeilded largely time gate-based content: duviri itself,  archon hunts, Kahl, kullervo, etc. which once completed are yet more one-and-done content islands who collect dust. 

I've read a lot of talk about an objective definition of meaningful content, so here's a very easy one: Content that gives players a reason to keep engaging with it once all of its unique collectibles have been earned, whether that be the fun of the mission, evergreen rewards in realistic amounts (none of these laughable 2000 credit bundles in steel path 400+ survival missions) or prestige rewards, special cosmetics that reflect a significant investment of time or effort, like the focus shop items or the Conclave sigils. Heck, leaderboards and rewards for speed run clear times would bring old content back to life.

This isn't particularly hard to figure out. Other games do it, warframe just has this predilection for creating content that is both the only source of something, and then gives you no reason to stick around once you have it.

How is Duviri itself time gated? One part of it is, which is the circuit mode, and that is if you only do it for the incarnons. The rest of Duviri, including the Circuit if you prefer that mode to farm arcanes, have no gates tied to it whatsoever.

As to content that gives players a reason to keep engaging with it after everything is obtained... well no game has that when it comes to the looter shooter and arpg genre, unless it is the only piece of content in the game, like in D3 where you only do rift and nothing else. Then obviously it will last. But if you look at argps, looter shooters and even MMOs (which WF tries to mimic), content tends to get played for a while after release then not get visited again.  Right now for me personally, even 3 months after the Duviri release I still engage with it since I farm all the relics and I also still enjoy the loop involved when farming those. There are few games that manage to keep me for 3 months on a new release, or updates that can actually sustain me for this long.

That applies to most gaas games. As I said, unless they are done like D3, with only one single piece of content to actually play, most content additions eventually get abandoned by the players. WF has more incentive to go back to content than most game, and gave further reason to go back by adding SP and SP fissures. 

MMOs mostly have you grind new tiers of gear in brand new places that are dead when the gear is obtained. Only reason to do it more times tend to be if you're an altoholic.

ARPGs tend to run on seasons these days, where new content is locked behind those seasons and require you to start over. Resulting in you having to go through and use the old content all over again and regrind what you need and then hit up the new content, unless it is woven into the level progression and is part of endgame aswell, like done in PoE. Not my cup of tea, I prefer the WF approach where new rewards (new primes) are added in old content by replacing those that get vaulted.

I gotta ask. How would prestige rewards add anything to remove the problem you see? Eventually you'd have all of those aswell, they'd just be more unique collectibles you'd eventually end up owning and then not going back. I agree with you on evergreens but I'm not sure how that should be solved. Since no matter the amount of credits or endo, it will still be trash rewards at those levels. And I dont think DE wants to introduce more ways to obtain Kuva considering the changes to the SE store. Maybe replace all endo and credits with a evergreen currency that allows us to pick up mats, credits, endo and similar at a vendor. Then they could also change mod scrapping, so scrapped mods also grant this currency instead of credits/endo, then people could go get mats they need instead that way.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

7 hours ago, Kaiga said:

This is a skeptical statement at best. 

While the new warframes that have been released post new war have been useful in terms of metagame strength, and their farms far more reasonable, the overall direction of the game since then has yeilded largely time gate-based content: duviri itself,  archon hunts, Kahl, kullervo, etc. which once completed are yet more one-and-done content islands who collect dust. 

I've read a lot of talk about an objective definition of meaningful content, so here's a very easy one: Content that gives players a reason to keep engaging with it once all of its unique collectibles have been earned, whether that be the fun of the mission, evergreen rewards in realistic amounts (none of these laughable 2000 credit bundles in steel path 400+ survival missions) or prestige rewards, special cosmetics that reflect a significant investment of time or effort, like the focus shop items or the Conclave sigils. Heck, leaderboards and rewards for speed run clear times would bring old content back to life.

This isn't particularly hard to figure out. Other games do it, warframe just has this predilection for creating content that is both the only source of something, and then gives you no reason to stick around once you have it.

Here's what you, and some others, are missing: It's already in the game and has been for a looooong time. The issue is that you are you and I'm me. We both have different wants for rewards...today. Next week will be different and, eventually, there will be no logical reason to offer even more varied rewards. That's because Warframe is a progressive game and, to be honest, it would be INCREDIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY stupid of DE to offer increased variable rewards in currently released content when some of those variables could be allocated to next gen of content. 

[PublikDomain]

19 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

That's because Warframe is a progressive game and, to be honest, it would be INCREDIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY stupid of DE to offer increased variable rewards in currently released content when some of those variables could be allocated to next gen of content. 

I think it's just a little bit more INCREDIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY stupid of DE to pour months or years of effort into one-and-done updates people stop playing after only a few weeks or months, especially when they so often put in even more effort on a 2.0 or rework years later to fix the obvious mistakes people were bringing up on day 1. And it's not like it's hard to change that, it's just about not being so wasteful with their "variables". Do it right the first time and they don't have to be so INCREDIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY wasteful later on and can actually focus on the "next gen of content" without so much dead content looming behind them stealing away their focus.

19 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The issue is that you are you and I'm me. We both have different wants for rewards...today. Next week will be different and, eventually, there will be no logical reason to offer even more varied rewards.

That reads just a bit backwards, no? If people are different, and value different things differently, isn't that a pretty solid reason to offer those more varied rewards so everyone can find a reward they value? Plus, with evergreens, it has the knock-on benefit of doing what Kaiga says and "[giving] players a reason to keep engaging with it once all of its unique collectibles have been earned". That seems pretty logical to me.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I think it's just a little bit more INCREDIBLY, RIDICULOUSLY stupid of DE to pour months or years of effort into one-and-done updates people stop playing after only a few weeks or months, especially when they so often put in even more effort on a 2.0 or rework years later to fix the obvious mistakes people were bringing up on day 1.

You could replace DE in that sentence with practically any company name that runs a gaas game. There are few that have anything that lasts beyond a month if it isnt PvP content, which practically sustains itself. And pointing the finger at DE is also not really fair when WF has more content we constantly revisit compared to most any other gaas game out there. 

I mean I'd love to see some examples from the people that think this is some nearly unique WF "issue". But as someone that has played MMOs and online co-op games for the last 25 years or so I have a hard time seeing anything but what is normal for those types of games, with quite a bit more longevity for content in WF at that. I can barely think of a game where I've gone back to early game content deep down the road in order to farm it for something again to the point I have in WF. The only example that pops up is Marvel Heroes, where farming zone end bosses at higher difficulties for their specific loot was a big endgame activity. But that eventually also got replaced by doing patrols instead unless you relly wanted to target farm someone specific. And the reason that was sustainable was due to the RNG stats on the items that dropped, so you went back to try and get BiS rolls. edit: And it was sustainable because you had a roster oof heroes bigger than the roster of frames we have, and each one needed their own copy of the item if you wanted to equip it.

[taiiat]

i don't really see it as a problem. Players are used to seeing "stuff" as "Pokemon to collect in this Booklet, even though i'm literally never going to use them".

what Incarnon upgrades are presenting, is... get the things that sound cool or interesting to you, worry about the rest of them some other time when you can be arsed to get them.
there's by far, plenty of random junk to Level to get to Mastery 30. once you reach this point, collecting more random junk to never use it, no longer has ANY purpose to you. arguably for several Mastery Ranks before that you already kinda didn't care but anyways.
the stuff that you're not as interested in using, that you'll have to get later/some other time? i guess that gives you a reason to still be logging in two Weeks from now rather than not.

 

now, if say there were just a couple Incarnon upgrades you actually liked personally and didn't the rest of them, then... fair, you could theoretically have a few Weeks in a row that you don't get offered the Weapons that you're looking for. but other than that i don't feel like there's really a problem, honestly. all of that other "stuff" just isn't really that important.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

You could replace DE in that sentence with practically any company name that runs a gaas game. There are few that have anything that lasts beyond a month if it isnt PvP content, which practically sustains itself. And pointing the finger at DE is also not really fair when WF has more content we constantly revisit compared to most any other gaas game out there. 

I mean I'd love to see some examples from the people that think this is some nearly unique WF "issue". But as someone that has played MMOs and online co-op games for the last 25 years or so I have a hard time seeing anything but what is normal for those types of games, with quite a bit more longevity for content in WF at that. I can barely think of a game where I've gone back to early game content deep down the road in order to farm it for something again to the point I have in WF. The only example that pops up is Marvel Heroes, where farming zone end bosses at higher difficulties for their specific loot was a big endgame activity. But that eventually also got replaced by doing patrols instead unless you relly wanted to target farm someone specific. And the reason that was sustainable was due to the RNG stats on the items that dropped, so you went back to try and get BiS rolls.

Yes, many other games and developers have the same recurring issues. It's... still an issue. Why does it need to be unique to Warframe to be worth addressing or avoiding? I don't need to see someone else get hit by a truck to understand that getting hit by a truck is an undesirable thing. And you'd think that if it were such a widespread issue facing so many developers that maybe there'd be plenty of examples of what to or not to do? Not that you even need to look outwards, Warframe provides enough examples of what not to do all on its own. You can look at Warframe in isolation and see the recurring mistakes DE keeps making and having to later address. Is not repeating those mistakes really such an absurd concept?

Good that you mention PvP, though. PvP is a great example of what to do to build sustainable content. Social systems are a great example of what to do. Wayfinder, the game DE's publishing for Airship Syndicate, has put a lot of its focus on their social systems. Evergreens are a great option, and one DE regularly relies on. So they could do these things that work, or continue to do things that don't work and just have to be fixed later. idk, which do you think is a more sustainable way to proceed?

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, many other games and developers have the same recurring issues. It's... still an issue. Why does it need to be unique to Warframe to be worth addressing or avoiding? I don't need to see someone else get hit by a truck to understand that getting hit by a truck is an undesirable thing. And you'd think that if it were such a widespread issue facing so many developers that maybe there'd be plenty of examples of what to or not to do? Not that you even need to look outwards, Warframe provides enough examples of what not to do all on its own. You can look at Warframe in isolation and see the recurring mistakes DE keeps making and having to later address. Is not repeating those mistakes really such an absurd concept?

Good that you mention PvP, though. PvP is a great example of what to do to build sustainable content. Social systems are a great example of what to do. Wayfinder, the game DE's publishing for Airship Syndicate, has put a lot of its focus on their social systems. Evergreens are a great option, and one DE regularly relies on. So they could do these things that work, or continue to do things that don't work and just have to be fixed later. idk, which do you think is a more sustainable way to proceed?

The thing is it isnt an issue though, hence why it has been done for so long in the same way across multiple games and communities. Those that have changed it up often introduce bloating token systems that allow you to buy evergreens etc. Which surely is a solution but not a particularly better one because it often ends up the same with no point in revisiting 99.99% of the content since something will always be better than the rest. Plus WF isnt in a situation like most other games where you might have a handful of areas you could potentially run, here you have each planet, several different mission types and ontop of that altered modes of those nodes and missions in the shape of SP, Arbi and NM missions.

I'm not saying that it wouldnt be great with more evergreen rewards, but it wouldnt get me to play more of the content in the game. I'm already avoiding 99% of the content in SP even though everything rewards the same thing i.e Steel Essence that ends up allowing me to buy the same things no matter what content I run. They'd have to add unique things for each mode to get me to revisit it, but at that point we'd eventually be back at the same point again when we've obtained what we need/want from that mode. We can already see that with content that rewards evergreen items, Index/Disruption for credit farming or Arenas/Arbitrations for endo. It would probably also help if people specified what evergreens they'd want, since right now saying "evergreen" is like saying "endgame" because each and everyone of use have a different view on what would actually be worth it. So we can loop back to tokens here, which again as I said ends up with bloat. Or it ends up with more complaints, like how people might end up with uneven tokens by being "forced" into this or that content for a specific activity from time to time.

[Tsukinoki]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Evergreens are a great option,

It'd be nice if anyone arguing for evergreens actually stated what the "evergreens" were, especially since that could mean a lot of different stuff to different people.

Is it endo to upgrade mods?  For some people sure, for others like myself?  That's just bloat that is a nothing reward as I have pretty much every single mod upgraded.
Is it kuva to roll rivens?  For some people sure, but for others no because they have the rivens they want at the stats they are happy with and don't need any more kuva.
Is it forma?  For some people sure, but for other no because they have everything they could want fomaed already done (or in some peoples cases they have everything fully formaed)

 

Is it a token system to buy whatever reward you personally think is "evergreen" and need?
Then it leads to the vast, vast, vast majority of the content being ignorred as soon as the "fastest"/"best" way to farm that token is discovered...kinda like what hapened with SP where only the modes that give the largest return of essence per time are played and every other node is empty even though they all give the same token.

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Is it a token system to buy whatever reward you personally think is "evergreen" and need?
Then it leads to the vast, vast, vast majority of the content being ignorred as soon as the "fastest"/"best" way to farm that token is discovered...kinda like what hapened with SP where only the modes that give the largest return of essence per time are played and every other node is empty even though they all give the same token.

And even if it is a token system the problem will arise regarding what the tokens will allow you to buy. Like you said, some need endo, some need kuva, others need something else. So if they add tokens but only allow for specific things to be purchased, then the "evergreen" system doesnt reward everyone eitherway. For me looking at the game, it doesnt seem like DE wants to introduce more ways to obtain Kuva, so that ship has likely already sailed in this case. Which means adding "evergreens" wouldnt be a fair solution either at this point.

Good point regarding SP and SE aswell. Is it even fair to say SP when it was more Odin Path than anything else at that point in time?

One thing I wouldnt mind seeing as evergreen rewards would be Bile.

[Tsukinoki]

59 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And even if it is a token system the problem will arise regarding what the tokens will allow you to buy. Like you said, some need endo, some need kuva, others need something else. So if they add tokens but only allow for specific things to be purchased, then the "evergreen" system doesnt reward everyone eitherway. For me looking at the game, it doesnt seem like DE wants to introduce more ways to obtain Kuva, so that ship has likely already sailed in this case. Which means adding "evergreens" wouldnt be a fair solution either at this point.

Exactly.

And beyond that the "evergreen" reward can change over time for players.  For instance look at Nora's nightwave shop.  It has some "evergreen" rewards that eventually you no longer need, such as Nitain extract, simply because eventually you will run out of uses for it.

 

There isn't some infinite sink of a lot of those rewards so once you get enough of them then it just becomes useless junk that you never want to see again.
I mean look at all the endo rewards for missions and rotations.  Older players hate them because it's just useless junk filler.  New players though?  They actually like and can use those small amounts of endo and I've been in newbie squads where they are actually happy when they got multiple endo in a row in a survival because it meant they could upgrade some of their mods.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

One thing I wouldnt mind seeing as evergreen rewards would be Bile.

How I never running out of bile:
-Make sure to do box-breaker missions to collect on nav coordinates (I couple this with relic cracking)
-Occasionally run around the vallis (especially the pearl) and grab the thermal sludge (I couple this with any nightwave I need to do that happens in the vallis)
-Occasionally run through halako with a box breaker to grab voidgel and nav coordinates (I couple this with incarnon unlocking, especially the first task which requires you to run a solo mission with the gear equipped)

 

I don't even do them that frequently and can top off my bile even if I do heavy usage, such as switching out multiple shards on a given frame.

But again this just shows the problem with "evergreen rewards", or even tokens to buy "evergreen rewards".  You need bile, I haven't had to really "farm" for it specifically and have more than I could really ever use.

[VibingCat]

On 2023-04-29 at 10:23 PM, Tsukinoki said:

say you get the "Furis" incarnon genesis....so what?  Will that suddenly make the weapon usable above level 10 in any way shape or form?  Or will it still be a bottom of the barrel useless weapon that you immediately shelve?

Incarnon can provide some benefits but I seriously doubt it's going to be enough to make some weapons usable/fun....so why all the bother and worry about getting the stuff?

lol your example makes me laugh as Incarnon Furis is literally the strongest weapon in the game at the moment with circa 600 millions damage per second on headshots without priming or abilities, enough to easily kill level 9999 demo units in the steel path.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

It'd be nice if anyone arguing for evergreens actually stated what the "evergreens" were, especially since that could mean a lot of different stuff to different people.

Is it endo to upgrade mods?  For some people sure, for others like myself?  That's just bloat that is a nothing reward as I have pretty much every single mod upgraded.
Is it kuva to roll rivens?  For some people sure, but for others no because they have the rivens they want at the stats they are happy with and don't need any more kuva.
Is it forma?  For some people sure, but for other no because they have everything they could want fomaed already done (or in some peoples cases they have everything fully formaed)

 

Is it a token system to buy whatever reward you personally think is "evergreen" and need?
Then it leads to the vast, vast, vast majority of the content being ignorred as soon as the "fastest"/"best" way to farm that token is discovered...kinda like what hapened with SP where only the modes that give the largest return of essence per time are played and every other node is empty even though they all give the same token.

Do we need to? "Evergreen" is the exact same term DE themselves use. They already know what they are.

Quote

A note from the Dev team: 

With Veilbreaker comes a weekly approach to the systems introduced in this update. We want a variety of options for players to plan Daily, Weekly, and Evergreen goals. 

Quote

Plus a hand-picked selection of rewards from previous Nightwave acts! 

...

And evergreen rewards you know and love: 

• Arcane Grace 
• Weapon + Warframe Slots 
• Kuva 
• Forma Bundles
• Orokin Catalysts
• Melee Riven Mod 
• Exilus Weapon Adapter 
• Exilus Warframe Adapter
• Umbra Forma

Quote

The following evergreen items are also available at Varzia: 

• Apis Syandana 

• Filigree Prime Decorations

• Necraloid Bundle - Includes:

  • Necraloid Glyph

  • Necraloid Sigil 

• Spektaka Liset Skin 

• 5x Orokin Ducats

• ...

If you really need a definition beyond those examples, "evergreen" things are things that have recurring use or value. Forma, potatoes, resources, Relics, etc. Tokens are great, and are widely used nowadays. Nightwave Cred, Standing, Steel Essence, Vitus Essence, Lua Thrax Plasm, Citrine's gems, owl tokens, where is this FUD that tokens are suddenly bad coming from?

And yeah, you might not value some of these items. They're still evergreens, though, and that's the reason there are multiple different offerings. Pick one of the many you value.

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Then it leads to the vast, vast, vast majority of the content being ignorred as soon as the "fastest"/"best" way to farm that token is discovered...

And the alternative is the vast, vast majority of content being ignored as soon as the one-time rewards are collected. It's better to have a few small reasons to come back to older content than it is to not have any reason to ever go back at all.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing is it isnt an issue though, hence why it has been done for so long in the same way across multiple games and communities. Those that have changed it up often introduce bloating token systems that allow you to buy evergreens etc. Which surely is a solution but not a particularly better one because it often ends up the same with no point in revisiting 99.99% of the content since something will always be better than the rest.

It might not be an issue for you personally, but it's still definitely an issue. Why do you think these other nameless multiple games have had to "change it up" or introduce new things? Surely they wouldn't be making these changes "so often" for no reason, right?

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Plus WF isnt in a situation like most other games where you might have a handful of areas you could potentially run, here you have each planet, several different mission types and ontop of that altered modes of those nodes and missions in the shape of SP, Arbi and NM missions.

In other words, it's exactly the same situation as those other games. You just listed a handful of areas you can potentially run. The only difference is that these areas aren't geographic locations, and that's only because in Warframe the tiles and locations are just decorative.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not saying that it wouldnt be great with more evergreen rewards, but it wouldnt get me to play more of the content in the game. I'm already avoiding 99% of the content in SP even though everything rewards the same thing i.e Steel Essence that ends up allowing me to buy the same things no matter what content I run. They'd have to add unique things for each mode to get me to revisit it, but at that point we'd eventually be back at the same point again when we've obtained what we need/want from that mode. We can already see that with content that rewards evergreen items, Index/Disruption for credit farming or Arenas/Arbitrations for endo.

No, but you'll still argue with me about having more evergreen rewards. 🙄

So don't play for evergreens. There are many good alternatives beyond them:

23 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Good that you mention PvP, though. PvP is a great example of what to do to build sustainable content. Social systems are a great example of what to do. Wayfinder, the game DE's publishing for Airship Syndicate, has put a lot of its focus on their social systems. Evergreens are a great option, and one DE regularly relies on.

There's also constructive content like decorations, base building, holding territory. The more additional reasons someone might want to play a piece of content the better.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It would probably also help if people specified what evergreens they'd want, since right now saying "evergreen" is like saying "endgame" because each and everyone of use have a different view on what would actually be worth it.

I'll just let DE specify it:

Quote

Spend your Necraloid Standing for this new evergreen item! (Endo)

Quote

Starting at Day 1050, Evergreen reward choices will be rotated every 50 Days though the following options:

Evergreen Choices A (choose one):
3 x Forma
3 x Exilus Adapter
4 x Weapon Slots

Evergreen Choices B (choose one):
50,000 Kuva
7-day Boosters (Affinity, Credits, Resource)
30,000 Endo

Evergreen Choices C (choose one):
3 x Rifle Riven
3 x Melee Riven
3 x Secondary Riven

Quote

When The War Within launched, we added Rivens to Sorties as a common drop to be the new, interesting, and unique evergreen goal for players in Sorties.

Better to have that than to have nothing, even if you personally don't care. Other people will.

Edit: And, genuine showerthought, since you brought up defining "endgame" (another term DE themselves has used in the past so we can just reference them): endgame content is just evergreen content. That's it, really complicated right? It's just content with a reason to keep replaying it beyond the one-off rewards. This, like evergreens, are particularly useful to have in a liveservice game because of some pretty simple mathematics: players that play zero hours spend on average zero money, and players that play non-zero hours spend on average non-zero money. You can do some further reading on topics like retention and conversions if that's still unclear. Having players that stick around and keep playing content is only good, and having players that leave and stop giving you money is only bad.  The more reasons there are for players to stick around the better.

[(PSN)Unstar]

3 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

5 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Then it leads to the vast, vast, vast majority of the content being ignorred as soon as the "fastest"/"best" way to farm that token is discovered...

And the alternative is the vast, vast majority of content being ignored as soon as the one-time rewards are collected. It's better to have a few small reasons to come back to older content than it is to not have any reason to ever go back at all.

This.  And I'll add that having a variety of ways to get the resources you want is healthy for the game, especially if the "optimal" way is a game mode you're not fond of.  We all have different preferences, and it would be cool if we could play the parts of the game we enjoy and still get rewards that make it feel purposeful.

[Pakaku]

On 2023-04-29 at 1:57 PM, Kaiga said:

Now the most recent wave of incarnons are purchasable with platinum, to skip the gate entirely. Looks like we were right in this being a thing that's staying.

Which is why I stopped supporting bad decisions that are propped up with plat shortcuts. Voting with my wallet, so to say

[Zimzala]

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time”. - John Lydgate, Poet

It seems to me that a large number of gamers simply refuse to understand and accept this concept and instead argue as if their POV is not only the dominant POV, but that 'everyone' thinks as they do, when reality begs to differ.

For example, from my POV, if someone thinks six months is a long time, then they don't really understand much about how things work.

I understand at 55 the passage of time is different for me than a 20-something full of desire to beat the game, but live service games are built around the idea of long term goals to keep people playing.

This incessant gamer-angst around being 'gotta go fast because I have 10 other games to play' and/or 'this game wastes my time', etc. is, in my opinion, from my POV, silly.

What's the rush?

If you sign up for a live service game, things take time, the whole point is for them to take time to complete so you have a reason to play if you play for rewards.

If you play any live service  game, from any developer, they either change and evolve or die.

If you play a game because it's fun, the rewards 'just happen' anyway and thus no need to create angst over not getting them 'fast enough'.

It's not rocket surgery, it's just pixels in a game.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Edit: And, genuine showerthought, since you brought up defining "endgame" (another term DE themselves has used in the past so we can just reference them): endgame content is just evergreen content. That's it, really complicated right? It's just content with a reason to keep replaying it beyond the one-off rewards. 

That isnt really endgame. Endgame is content you get to use your previously gathered progress in and test it, while making use of the content to further improve and prepare yourself for future endgame. But I get the feeling you have very little experience in online game of the WF type or MMOs overall. Not only does your idea of endgame indicate that, but the following quote does aswell.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

In other words, it's exactly the same situation as those other games. You just listed a handful of areas you can potentially run. The only difference is that these areas aren't geographic locations, and that's only because in Warframe the tiles and locations are just decorative.

Since you clearly do not get the point. It isnt at all like those games. In WF everything gets reused, in those other games you have a handful of areas out of all that are actually worth using. It has nothing to do with how they are located or what they are called etc. Let me make it really simple to understand. 

Game A has 30 zones, 3 of them are useful at a time as you progress, meaning you end up with 3 zones you actually make use of when you've reached your highest progression.

WF. You have all the planets and all the nodes and all the extra modes tied to them that you can utilze even if you've reached max power progression, since there is always the "evergreen" grind to fiish up all weapons that require materials from everywhere in the game. Or you can sit in SP to farm essence to buy evergreen rewards from a vendor, and it doesnt matter where you go in SP to do that. Granted, you likely wont run many one off missions unless they are incursions. But in the end, every node will likely get revisited on a regular basis due to them appearing across multiple different activities and difficulties throughout the game.

Ok onto the evergreen thing. So you are inline with what DE defines as evergreen then it seems since you quoted their definition both to me and Tsukinoki.

So my question is then. Where exactly do you see the lack of evergreen in WF? Since practically any content we do has it going by the very definition of DE themselves, that you specifically quoted.

Duviri = Arcanes (evergreen lol what?), cosmetics (another big what?), decorations, kuva, forma, adapters, material trading, endo, credits, steel essence (leading to other evergreen purchases from Teshin) and so on.

SP = Essence, as mentioned vendor tokens to buy evergreens. Including cosmetics (again what?).

Arbitrations = Same as SP while also rewarding buttloads of endo options from the rewards, and another place for cosmetics (deserving another big big what?).

Eidolons = Arcanes (another evergreen lol and what?)

Star chart = Endo and materials that we need for a lengthy period of time since we have the evergreen grind in completing all weapons etc.

Railjack = Multitudes of materials that Helminth more or less made evergreen due to their increased use depending on the food type.

See there, everything already has evergreen rewards according to you and the quotes from DE that you provided. Personally I question DEs definition of evergreen strongly since they've included arcanes and one-time cosmetics to the bunch.