Did DE not want to add Archwing to Open World?

[Zahnrad]

It's been almost 6 years since the Plains of Eidolon were added. In all that time, Archwing has never felt fun.

I went to the Plains for the first time in a long time to complete the Final Evolution for Dread Incarnon and using Archwing to find and pick off enemies, My repressed memories of how awful Archwing is in Open World scenarios came back.

Despite promotional material for the Plains of Eidolon depicting using Archwings. They've always felt like the worst part of Open World.

So, on release. The Archwing launcher wasn't infinite. They were a consumable that cost resources to craft. I think it was x50 per build. Which sounds like a lot but you'd burn through them quickly.

Seemingly every enemy on the Plains is tailor loaded with munitions specifically designed to target Archwings. It's rare that you'll fly near any random Grineer in the Plains and not encounter a warning message of incoming projectiles. On top of that, there are several enemy attacks that don't even warn you that can snipe you out of Archwing unaware that you were even being targetted. Most projectiles even have homing capabilities and are hard to spot coming at you. Meaning your best effort if you want to stay in Archwing is to quickly flee from the area just to avoid them until they lose track of you or self-detonate.

Even attempting to deploy Archwings as an escape method is a bad idea since if you get hit by a random attack while deploying your Archwing, that will also kick you out of it.

This isn't even mentioning how I have my Archwing launcher binded to a key for ease of access. For someone without a bind I can imagine it feels even worse.

 

Understandably this quickly made players realise "Hey you see this cool thing? DON'T use this for combat." since everything in the Plains seemed to discourage you from doing so. This resulted in everyone only using Archwings as a means of fast transportation. The Itzal Archwing then became the meta since people only used Archwings to get from Point A to Point B thanks to its Blink ability.

DE saw that everyone was only using one Archwing in the plains and wanted to remove Blink from Itzal. Luckily they decided to make it universal to all archwings instead but like many things in Warframe, this was a pretty knee jerk reaction from DE where instead of making all Archwings fun and viable, they tried to shoot the only good one in the foot.

But then we got Fortuna and K-Drives. Luckily the anti-air in Fortuna wasn't as awful as the Plains but it was still existant. It quickly became obvious no one wants to use the K-Drives because Archwings are still faster. So DE tried to make K-Drives more combat oriented, and even now that still never caught on.

Now in Open World we have fast teleportation points which makes Archwings have even less value since we can blink across the entire map with just a few seconds of delay.

 

Oh I almost forgot to mention. Archwings in Open World have much less range than in Archwing missions, so even if you wanted to argue about Archwings being OP. They are nerfed in the Plains anyway. Plus, for every Archwing that exists, a Warframe can do the same job if not better.

 

So I gotta ask. What was the intent for Archwing in Open World and was it genuinely a mistake to have added them at all?

If it was my choice, I'd get rid of the whole "enemy attacks kick you out of Archwing" mechanics and just have it apply actual damage to the Archwing health/shield values instead. There's no real reason that Archwings should suck this much in combat. If anything their power should be encouraged, being the only place where we can have both Archwings and Warframes able to assist each other at the same time. For example, you can use the Amesha Archwing to buff Warframes in Open World but you never actually see it happen because nobody wants to use Archwings for genuine combat, the most you'll see is a glorified sniper platform at a distance to avoid being knocked out.

 

Sorry for the vent/rant but this is something I've always felt strongly about. In a game where people are asking for more synergy between systems and less content islands I don't get why Archwing is brushed off so much.

[Pakaku]

No, I wouldn't say that giving the enemies a couple of anti-Archwing tools means DE doesn't want archwings to be used. Usually you can also destroy whatever launches them, like the turrets around the Plains.

I'm sure they regret giving us the tools, though, hence how gimped K-Drives, Necramechs (if they are comparable), Kaithes, and even the teleport pads are. But it seems like they're fine leaving Archwings alone in their own content zones for now.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Pakaku

[Grommile]

Honestly, the biggest problem with Archwing on the free roam maps is getting INVALID LOCATION for no obvious reason when you try to launch it on terrain that isn't perfectly flat.

[LSG501]

10 minutes ago, Grommile said:

Honestly, the biggest problem with Archwing on the free roam maps is getting INVALID LOCATION for no obvious reason when you try to launch it on terrain that isn't perfectly flat.

Jump and hotkey (I've got k-drive, archwing and necramech on 6,7,8... joys of keyboard :)) usually fixes this but it shouldn't really be needed like you say.

 

I don't mind the anti archwing weapons but I'd also have preferred they damaged my archwing rather than ejecting me and I was able to shoot them down etc.

Mind you k-drives suck, the teleport pads are just slow and it's often quicker to just fly...

Edited June 1, 2023 by LSG501

[trst]

Yes it was a mistake for DE to add them to open worlds at all. They even wanted to resolve that issue with Fortuna as the "cold" cycle was originally meant to be too cold for Archwings to function. But that idea got scrapped, my guess is because DE knew how the community would react to it and decided to throw K-Drives under the bus to avoid drama.

As for why things from the Plains are the way they are I assume it was a balancing attempt. As enemies can't really do anything to you when you're flying around in an Archwing thus they needed some way to actually hurt you and keep you from staying in the air all the time. As for the Archwing Launcher I assume the idea there was to prevent players from immediately flying from point A to B and ignoring the map DE just made while still giving players a way to eventually get around more easily, plus it gave Archwings the most purpose they ever had.

As for the Itzal change it was, iirc, to just slow down players (which isn't just a grind issue as it also caused issues for newer players) and to make it where the Itzal wasn't the "only viable" Archwing.

 

The thing is Archwings already have no place in the game and DE already considered removing them from most of the game. So anything they do to rebalance/integrate them into open worlds for combat might be for nothing if they do decide to rework/remove the entire system anyways.

[Zahnrad]

20 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

No, I wouldn't say that giving the enemies a couple of anti-Archwing tools means DE doesn't want archwings to be used. Usually you can also destroy whatever launches them, like the turrets around the Plains.

The problem is, it's not just the turrets. I'm not sure on the exact amount of units but it feels like almost every unit is firing some form of anti-air at you. It doesn't help they bypass all forms of Archwing defence, even when the Archwing abilities are meant to stop attacks hitting you.

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

No, I wouldn't say that giving the enemies a couple of anti-Archwing tools means DE doesn't want archwings to be used. Usually you can also destroy whatever launches them, like the turrets around the Plains.

you mean almost every single ground Enemy?

it's not just Turrets. almost every single Enemy has a secret Missile Launcher up their butt, that they only fire when you're in Archwing.
the only Enemies that don't, are the Melee only Enemies. there's a dedicated Enemy SKU that's supposed to be anti-air, but in actuality most of the 'dudes with Guns' all have AA Missiles.

 

add that on top to generally when your Shields break, you get automatically ejected out of Archwing.

23 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Mind you k-drives suck, the teleport pads are just slow and it's often quicker to just fly...

eh? it's definitely not faster to use Archwing than it is to use a Teleporter, if you're going a long distance. the Animation may be somewhat time consuming, but it's still moving across most or all of the Map in the time it takes to do a single Blink while in Archwing.

[Hobie-wan]

42 minutes ago, taiiat said:

you mean almost every single ground Enemy?

it's not just Turrets. almost every single Enemy has a secret Missile Launcher up their butt, that they only fire when you're in Archwing.
the only Enemies that don't, are the Melee only Enemies. there's a dedicated Enemy SKU that's supposed to be anti-air, but in actuality most of the 'dudes with Guns' all have AA Missiles.

I think it's simply "take any damage" and you are popped out of AW. So it doesn't matter if it's a missile turret or a karak round brazed your big toe.

But if you keep moving and take out turrets, it shouldn't be too hard to stay up in the air most of the time. Otherwise a big bug hovering in the sky makes a tasty target.

[(XBOX)Riknav]

Tbf you can say this about Warframes when they came out. Look at all we lost/gained since then. No stamina, no coptering, abilities and reworks happened, etc. 

 

But in a way I agree with op. My thing is why not connect everything together. I know, wishful thinking. But at least it will be more of an experience using everything.

[Lilybun]

While we're complaining about open worlds can I just say how much I despise the old fishing now that I've gotten to experience maw feeding in duviri? It resembles an actual minigame instead of being a waiting simulator with rng, boring bait collecting, boring spear upgrades and boring day/night timegates. I usually like fishing minigames but warframe never hit the mark for me until now.

[taiiat]

3 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

I think it's simply "take any damage" and you are popped out of AW. So it doesn't matter if it's a missile turret or a karak round brazed your big toe.

But if you keep moving and take out turrets, it shouldn't be too hard to stay up in the air most of the time. Otherwise a big bug hovering in the sky makes a tasty target.

a perfect pairing with AoE spam Weapons, hope you didn't like using anything else :^)
and hope that there aren't more than like 3 Enemies nearby.

it's not just any Damage, but enough to break your Shields definitely will. sometimes less seems to but that, idunno. maybe it also does for Number of hits or something.

 

but i mean that there are many Enemies with AA Missiles. it's not just the one or two AA Missile SKU's standing around in a group of Enemies that do, several of the rest also will fire some, for some reason.

Edited June 1, 2023 by taiiat

[TARINunit9]

5 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Oh I almost forgot to mention. Archwings in Open World have much less range than in Archwing missions, 

I agree with your post but this part is a misconception (and it's not your fault). All distances in Archwing missions are multiplied by four; this was discovered when the Stalker spawned in an Archwing mission back in 2014 and he was four times larger than the players. So Archwing power range is always the same, it's the archwings themselves that change size

3 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

I think it's simply "take any damage" and you are popped out of AW. So it doesn't matter if it's a missile turret or a karak round brazed your big toe.

If you have a chance to watch closely, no. Enemies will literally THROW missiles at you, and the missiles reuse the same particle effects as Grineer Hellions. These EMP missiles are what instantly knocks players out of Archwing

[ant99999]

My impression always was that DE did "nerf" archwing ability range (relative to their size that is). But they never nerfed their speed. So abilities are much smaller than in space that makes sense, but speed isn't, even though that's all happening in the atmosphere and look what water turn archwings into. By any logic they should fly comparably slow in the air since they need to constantly be in hover mode in addition to air resistance.

If archwings were more of combat helicopters with occasional blinks, that wouldn't create this ridiculous mobility imbalance where no other vehicle can even hope to compete with them.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

The issue with archwings is there was, is and never will be anything they can add to open worlds regarding travel that dethrones archwings, makes it equal, or makes people use anything else than archwings thanks to zooming around the entire maps in seconds..

[(PSN)robotwars7]

9 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Sorry for the vent/rant but this is something I've always felt strongly about.

don't apologize for being right; you hit the nail on the head.

when Plains of Eidolon launched, I - and others perhaps - were under the impression that Archwings would be another viable playstyle on the plains, and that you could effectively provide "air support" for your squad by using Archwing abilities and maybe an AoE weapon. obviously there would be at least one enemy who'd counter that, but it'd be up to the players to deal with that.

as you said though, it feels like every enemy has a counter to it, like the local weapons dealer was giving out free samples of Anti-Aircraft munitions... and why DE decided to make it so that a single hit forces you out of Archwing is absurd; if the Archwing health reaches zero, then sure, but considering that we can get hit in the face constantly with missiles in actual Archwing missions without losing our wings and floating in space forever, it's wildly inconsistent.

then there's the issue regarding Archwing abilities; they are all trash, except for Amesha, hence why it's the only one people use since Universal Blink became a thing (otherwise we'd all still be using Itzal.) Odonata? Elytron? totally forgotten: a shame since I used to love Elytron because it had literal nukes as an ability (which deal far less damage than a typical AoE gun). the lack of mods and the weakness of the ones we have don't help either. 

ultimately Archwing's only real value in the game is that it's fast: the fastest way for most frames (not including frames like Zephyr/Nova who have long-distance mobility powers) to get around an open map, and it lets us go between railjack and enemy ships. that's it. very few people use them for combat, and they aren't that effective anyway. an Archwing reowrk is LONG overdue, but when the modular system got scrapped, so did any chance of them getting reworked it seems.

 

[LSG501]

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

eh? it's definitely not faster to use Archwing than it is to use a Teleporter, if you're going a long distance. the Animation may be somewhat time consuming, but it's still moving across most or all of the Map in the time it takes to do a single Blink while in Archwing.

Weird because I've beaten clan mates across the map using arcwhing when they were using the teleport pads..... and this was when we were 'speed running' stuff. 

Blink isn't always that fast, I actually think it slows me down when using titania in pixie mode for example....

[Grommile]

9 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Jump and hotkey (I've got k-drive, archwing and necramech on 6,7,8... joys of keyboard :))

Keybinds are great! I've got 6 bound to omni recall, 7 to synthesis scanner, 8 to the synthesis trap, 9/0/-/= to various pizzas.

[TARINunit9]

12 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

then there's the issue regarding Archwing abilities; they are all trash, except for Amesha, hence why it's the only one people use since Universal Blink became a thing (otherwise we'd all still be using Itzal.) Odonata? Elytron? totally forgotten: a shame since I used to love Elytron because it had literal nukes as an ability (which deal far less damage than a typical AoE gun). the lack of mods and the weakness of the ones we have don't help either. 

The big fish got transplanted to a big pond

On paper, all Archwing abilities are broken strong God Tier. Invisibility that breaks all target locks and resets enemy aggro? Radial Disarm that comes out on Frame 1 and pushes and stuns? Ten seconds of particle effects that block all projectiles? Omnidirectional Greedy Pull that freezes enemies? An even stronger and longer-lasting version of Volt's shield? Sign me up!

Both Archwing sand Archguns are obscenely overpowered for actual Archwing missions, because the enemy stats are wildly different. One point of Archgun damage was not equal to one point of rifle damage back in the day. But after the gravimags were added (and incidentally, Volt shield was buffed to be just as strong and useful as Odonata shield) now they DID have to use the same damage, and Archguns just could not even hope to measure up in this new environment

[Packetdancer]

13 hours ago, Grommile said:

Keybinds are great! I've got 6 bound to omni recall, 7 to synthesis scanner, 8 to the synthesis trap, 9/0/-/= to various pizzas.

Numpad keys for me. Numpad 4 is Energy Pizza, 5 is Ammo Pizza, 6 is Health Pizza, 7 is K-Drive, 8 is Archwing, 9 is Omni recall, 0 is Air Support, * is Tranq Gun, - is Mining Laser, 1 is Synthesis Scanner, 2 is the Synthesis Trap, etc. :D

[Marvelous_A]

Most archwings have survivability issues in all kinds of content. 

[taiiat]

16 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Weird because I've beaten clan mates across the map using arcwhing when they were using the teleport pads..... and this was when we were 'speed running' stuff. 

Blink isn't always that fast, I actually think it slows me down when using titania in pixie mode for example....

unless the destination is quite far away from a Teleport Pad, and so you're not really testing the Teleporting.... - the time of the Teleport Animation is like, the Cooldown of Blink long.
crossing Kilometers in a few Seconds. Archwing doesn't cross the Landscape in a few Seconds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
your only options for speed ofcourse, are to use Itzal, have the speed and boost speed Mods on, and use Blink. there isn't anything else there :)

Titania or otherwise, well, flying, but not using Archwing - i'm sure can be faster, but that isn't the subject.

 

15 hours ago, Grommile said:

Keybinds are great! I've got 6 bound to omni recall, 7 to synthesis scanner, 8 to the synthesis trap, 9/0/-/= to various pizzas.

i use the Function Keys, myself.
i have Archwing, Archgun, Hoverboard, and Mech on F1-F4.

i think those are the most accessible organized set of Buttons within reach. i could use some of the Letters but it's easier to remember them if they're in a line, yaknow?
them having physical space between them and the other Keys makes it easier to press them without looking at the Keyboard, as well.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

In the very beginning of Cetus Plains, the archwing launcher segment was a consumable gear item of x100 per craft instance. Now they have infinite usage, but in the past, it wasn't this current way. Some folks were being elitist about it saying they have thousands of archwing launcher segments too, from collecting a lot of fish oil mainly to craft that amount.

My point is it could have turned out much worse than it is currently now. And we are the champions of persuading the devs to make this past archwing launcher segment change! Woot! Woot!🥳 Keep fighting, together we shall conquer even other dimensions, such as Duviri Paradox! 👊
 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Felsagger]

If all open worlds were connected by the transition of Archwing, Rail Jack then Warframe would become something else packing ten more years of LIFE. That is if DE is interested on game keeping. 

 

Would be amazing if all these open worlds gets heavy rework, continuous connectivity between worlds and all the simulated spaces where reconstructed. 

[Kaggelos]

I mean if I'm gonna be honest, Archwings and open worlds are for me the most boring way to move around. 

They are way too good, i.e. Super fast, super maneuverable, with almost zero drawbacks.

To me this is boring.

K-Drives on the other hand at least are a bit more fun, what with their own unique way of movement and different ways of implementing tricks and stuff, plus I really appreciate the sense of momentum they have, like, they're more physics based. Archwing throws all of that out the window.

And lastly, Kaithes. I used them once or twice in open worlds, and the immersion aspect was just simply amazing. I really really loved using them. So imma keep using them more, even thinking of outright removing the key bind for Archwing, unless we are doing Eidolon Hunting, purely out of respect for the time and effort my teammates will put into it and not time gate them.

 

[TARINunit9]

On 2023-06-01 at 5:45 PM, Marvelous_A said:

Most archwings have survivability issues in all kinds of content. 

Archwing missions: nigh-invulnerable angels of destruction, with base health and shields nearly doubling out the Warframes released around the same time with much more powerful and convenient abilities to match. Even Steel Path enemies struggle to dent them

Open World missions: theoretically just as durable and powerful, but too many EMP missiles to actually test this

Railjack missions: the only content Archwings really struggle, with enemies dealing much more damage to keep up with the Railjack's health pool