Discussion: Frames vulnerable while in Operator.

[4thBro]

Some abilities being active on your Frame while you are using Operator make your Frame vulnerable to being damaged. I say "some abilities" because there seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to which abilities cause this. I used to believe it was defensive abilities, however I recently discovered that Hall of Mirrors (Mirage's clones) also causes her to become vulnerable during Operator use.

 

I ask you this:

What good does this do for the game?

 

If we can't really come up with a good answer here... ... ... may we please remove this grief-ass mechanic? Lol.

 

To start the discussion, if I haven't already:

If we were to say that it's the presence of an active defensive ability that causes your Frame to be vulnerable during Operator, I ask... why? Is that not backwards? Why punish players that are keeping a conscious mind on their defenses, while someone with zero defenses get to remain invulnerable? Think about that for a second. Pack 4 offensive abilities, remain invulnerable. Pack a defensive ability, get punished and get killed.

Is that what we want? Because we're voting with our silence right now.

 

Let's talk about this, please.

[Pakaku]

13 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

there seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to which abilities cause this

Feels like this has been the modus operandum for a while now. Nothing is consistent, there's no plan, there's no accomodating for future plans, it's just "throw it out there, we'll figure it out later" and it all cheapens the experience

[Traumtulpe]

I used to think that all channeled abilities leave the warframe vulnerable, until I realized that I was getting shot out of operator form (you are forced to return when the warframes reaches 2 HP) simply from having a buff on me.

If you do use the operator at all (say to activate life support towers in level 9k missions), make sure you have no buffs active.

[emmyemi]

I think the logic here is to prevent players from simply leaving their Warframes sitting around supplying buffs to the entire squad while also being completely invincible (Operator + Void mode). As an example, imagine being able to have 100% uptime on Equinox's Provoke and Maim, only popping back into the frame to spend your charges and recast, while also keeping Vazarin's Squad Regen and Guardian Shell up, and staying invincible and undetectable as Operator pretty much anytime just by crouching. Allowing this to work would COMPLETELY remove the need for any kind of survivability investment for support frames, as you could easily just activate your buffs and then screw off into Void mode to nullify any chance of being challenged while the rest of the squad takes advantage of the free buffs.

Keep in mind that while Warframes can be vulnerable to damage while channeling an ability, they also gain 90% DR, so you aren't immediately a sitting duck (unless you're in extremely high level missions where DR is basically meaningless), but you'll still have to be conscious of where you're popping out.

Edited July 24, 2023 by emmyemi

[4thBro]

On 2023-07-24 at 8:05 AM, emmyemi said:

I think the logic here is to prevent players from simply leaving their Warframes sitting around supplying buffs to the entire squad while also being completely invincible (Operator + Void mode).

Why not?

Using your entire player slot just to provide buffs while camping in Operator Void Mode can't possibly be considered "a problem that needs fixing".

 

On 2023-07-24 at 8:05 AM, emmyemi said:

Keep in mind that while Warframes can be vulnerable to damage while channeling an ability, they also gain 90% DR, so you aren't immediately a sitting duck (unless you're in extremely high level missions where DR is basically meaningless), but you'll still have to be conscious of where you're popping out.

And, yeah, I do have high level content in mind. One of the biggest annoyances of this outdated game mechanic is how prevalent it becomes in the Void Cascade game mode, which not only makes you use Operator quite a lot (thus exposing your Frame constantly and unavoidably), but it also scales up the enemies at one of the highest rates in the game.

 

It really highlights the issue with the mechanic.

[Chewarette]

4 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Why not?

Using your entire player slot just to provide buffs while camping in Operator Void Mode can't possibly be considered "a problem that needs fixing".

Of course it does. Come on.

It was added specifically before players found loops where you activate some S#&$, go AFK in Operator mode and call it a day. Which in fact still exists today but a bit less.

I don't know what to say if you don't see the kind of problems having a totally invulnerable warframe with active buffs / abilities while in operator mode.

[emmyemi]

10 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Why not?

Using your entire player slot just to provide buffs while camping in Operator Void Mode can't possibly be considered "a problem that needs fixing".

Just because this is a power fantasy horde shooter doesn't mean we should completely throw out any semblance of balance. If you want the strongest buffs, you sacrifice survivability, or efficiency, or utility, or (etc.)... If you want your guns to deal more upfront damage, you sacrifice convenience—reload speed, ammo storage, elemental diversity—or you sacrifice another gear slot (another weapon, a specific frame/ability, a specific focus school) to boost its damage.

I 100% agree that being overpowered is pretty much the end goal of gameplay here, but what is a goal without obstacles to overcome? Why should leaving your Warframe unattended, surrounded by enemy forces, for any extended period of time not be considered, at the very least, an extreme tactical risk?

[4thBro]

11 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Of course it does. Come on.

It was added specifically before players found loops where you activate some S#&$, go AFK in Operator mode and call it a day. Which in fact still exists today but a bit less.

I don't know what to say if you don't see the kind of problems having a totally invulnerable warframe with active buffs / abilities while in operator mode.

Because I can guarantee you that a Frame providing a buff and then AFK'ing isn't nearly as strong as a Frame providing a buff and then playing.

 

Your discussion sounds more like you believe the buffs are too strong, not that AFK'ing in Operator is too strong. (Do you see the difference that I am defining here?)

 

4 minutes ago, emmyemi said:

Just because this is a power fantasy horde shooter doesn't mean we should completely throw out any semblance of balance. If you want the strongest buffs, you sacrifice survivability, or efficiency, or utility, or (etc.)... If you want your guns to deal more upfront damage, you sacrifice convenience—reload speed, ammo storage, elemental diversity—or you sacrifice another gear slot (another weapon, a specific frame/ability, a specific focus school) to boost its damage.

I 100% agree that being overpowered is pretty much the end goal of gameplay here, but what is a goal without obstacles to overcome? Why should leaving your Warframe unattended, surrounded by enemy forces, for any extended period of time not be considered, at the very least, an extreme tactical risk?

Same as I'm responding to the other poster.

 

Providing buffs to other players isn't "sacrificing your survivability" in any way EXCEPT for when you go Operator. And, again, an active player providing buffs is far stronger than an AFK player providing buffs. (And since you can't actually go AFK because you have to maintain Operator's Void Mode, what are we really talking about here? It feels like somebody probably made a popular YT video once, and their friends were "AFK" Operators, and everyone went crazy about it, but nobody really stopped to think about it.)

And especially with Shield Gating, it's not like a "Buff Bot" would struggle to survive in endgame content by not AFK'ing in Void Mode, and ESPECIALLY especially with the kind of Energy that Nourish gives you. (And since we're talking about Buff Bots, of course Nourish will be included, right?)

 

Nothing in this thread so far has remotely convinced me that I'm overlooking something here.

Edited July 24, 2023 by 4thBro

[Chewarette]

9 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Because I can guarantee you that a Frame providing a buff and then AFK'ing isn't nearly as strong as a Frame providing a buff and then playing.

This is not the question, though.

And even then - being invincible and providing buffs is better than providing buff but dying every 2 minutes. So you could say being invulnerable is stronger (who would have thought, heh)

[4thBro]

10 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

This is not the question, though.

And even then - being invincible and providing buffs is better than providing buff but dying every 2 minutes. So you could say being invulnerable is stronger (who would have thought, heh)

I mean...

I argue, in response, that there's no reason to be "dying every 2 minutes," or whatever the scenario. I could also argue that... no, perhaps dying every 2 minutes is still better, because that's 2 minutes of contributing to a lot of the... killing, or whatever the objective may be.

 

However, I think this branch-off is a bit derailing, or at least potentially?

----------

Perhaps some organization is in order here.

 

Pros:

Stops AFK Buff Botting.

 

Cons:

Makes game modes that require Operator miserable.

 

Feel free to suggest additions to these two lists, this is our starting point.

And my thoughts on them are... Do you believe the Pro(s) outweigh the Con(s)? I could probably think of more Cons, and not more Pros, and even with the 1:1 that we have right now, I'd say my answer is "no".

 

AFK Buff Botting is a very loose game mechanic abuse. Very casual level, in my opinion. Low threat level, if you will. Maybe it looks "overpowered" in Hydron, but is this really what high level players are gonna do? (Absolutely not.) And yet, if you look at the Con(s), we have actual game modes suffering for it.

Is this worth it, in your opinion?

Edited July 24, 2023 by 4thBro

[emmyemi]

24 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

Providing buffs to other players isn't "sacrificing your survivability" in any way […]

…EXCEPT if your goal is to min-max those buffs. Then you'll be throwing out general survivability and utility mods in favor of maximizing range and strength. Normally, this would come with the caveat that you are now much squishier than normal, so a few stray bullets could easily ruin your day.

You're right that simply having buffs active doesn't hurt your survivability, but building specifically to maximize those buffs usually does, even if players still have ways around this (shield gating, etc.).

24 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

And, again, an active player providing buffs is far stronger than an AFK player providing buffs.

Again, you're correct. But this is a game where you don't even need all 4 players to be actively killing just to complete the objective. If your job is to sit near the squad and provide buffs, then regardless of whether you participate in kills or not, this mission will get done and no one will struggle. If you want to do that, you absolutely can, but you can't do that and be invincible the entire mission.

You are also missing the fact that it's not only buffs that have this limitation (it was the example I went to because there are many, many frames with channeled buffs); channeled abilities that deal damage or have other effects are also affected, as they should be l.

 

The problem we're trying to elucidate is not that channeled abilities or Operator are too strong on their own, but that the interactions between these two elements of gameplay COULD be toxic for the game itself without any balancing in place.

Edited July 24, 2023 by emmyemi

[4thBro]

On 2023-07-24 at 8:49 AM, emmyemi said:

…EXCEPT if your goal is to min-max those buffs. Then you'll be throwing out general survivability and utility mods in favor of maximizing range and strength. Normally, this would come with the caveat that you are now much squishier than normal, so a few stray bullets could easily ruin your day.

See - I don't agree with this.

How do you maximize the buffs?

Blind Rage.

How do you maximize survivability?

Blind Rage.

 

Done & done. You're not sacrificing anything.

 

On 2023-07-24 at 8:49 AM, emmyemi said:

Again, you're correct. But this is a game where you don't even need all 4 players to be actively killing just to complete the objective. If your job is to sit near the squad and provide buffs, then regardless of whether you participate in kills or not, this mission will get done and no one will struggle. If you want to do that, you absolutely can, but you can't do that and be invincible the entire mission.

Hmm. A decent point, to an extent. Warframe can VERY MUCH be a one-man show. If one person is able to clear the area all by themselves at all times, then there's not much for the other 3 people to do, right? And it's often a race to be the one that clears it first. And, typically, one person is winning that race constantly, charts are like 70% damage done by one guy, etc.

 

However... Again, that's kind of more like the Hydron scenario. To again use Void Cascades as a good example, everyone in that game mode DOES have to split up, handle things apart from other players, etc. (Railjack is also a good example for this scenario, off the top of my head.)

In these, there's no feasible way for someone's job to be "AFK buff bot me, bro". You just won't do well as a team that way, no matter how powerful you can make one guy.

 

On 2023-07-24 at 8:49 AM, emmyemi said:

You are also missing the fact that it's not only buffs that have this limitation (it was the example I went to because there are many, many frames with channeled buffs); channeled abilities that deal damage or have other effects are also affected, as they should be l.

While I feel like I could argue, "What channeled ability actually does so much damage that it's a big issue if your Frame is left invuln while you sit in Operator..."

I'll instead say:

Isn't it a better fix to just make those abilities deal 0 damage while you're in Operator?

[emmyemi]

9 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

To again use Void Cascades as a good example, everyone in that game mode DOES have to split up, handle things apart from other players, etc.

In game modes where everyone is splitting up, obviously the bigger issue (that is actually related) is damage dealing abilities. Yes, you could solve it by just having the ability do 0 damage or otherwise go inactive while in Operator, but that solution is just as frustrating, if not more so, considering situations where you might need to be frequently popping in and out for utility (Unairu, Zenurik, Vazarin) or to buff your Warframe (Madurai, Naramon). Would you really prefer to be dealing with your abilities constantly disabling every time you do that? How is that more fun than simply remembering to cancel the abilities yourself, or paying more attention to where and when you park your god body?

Like, you skipped over this point, but I actually can't stress enough:

52 minutes ago, emmyemi said:

Why should leaving your Warframe unattended, surrounded by enemy forces, for any extended period of time not be considered, at the very least, an extreme tactical risk?

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

I’ve been caught out a few times by the not-quite-invincible state of being out of my Warframe, but I usually just check if I’ve got some channeling ability running and turn it off. Not sure I’ve noticed much inconsistency that I couldn’t plan for.

I do think being out in Operator form and leaving a frame vulnerable seems fine. I’ve hidden in void mode only to be yanked back into my frame more than a few times, which I’ve sometimes felt Void mode is a little easy to hide in and can do with some risk to it

[taiiat]

it's blanketed to anything that's technically a Duration based Ability on or emenating from the Warframe.
it's to be proactive to be sure that nobody can abuse their Warframe as a free Aura Totem without any potential for it to be Killed. you get to keep your Abilities even if you aren't in your Warframe, but this is the tradeoff. otherwise, your Abilities would get disabled by leaving your Warframe, that would be worse.

90% DR is still a lot of extra protection on top of the presumably and hopefully EHP your Warframe already has. i'm not fussed about it at all. the only annoying part being that if you get pulled back to your Warframe for any reason the "Camera Animation" for it is THE. ABSOLUTE. WORST.
why in the bloody hell do we have this super low sensitivity limbo state thing happening there. it's so bad.

[0_The_F00l]

This has been the case for some time now , any ability that provides passive effects makes you vulnerable , but with 90% DR.

This is not new.

So it's not completely without some defense.

I really don't see it as a problem.

 

[trst]

The good it does is in preventing afk cheese strategies from being even more readily accessible. Players can, and already do, optimize the fun out of the game even when it's at their detriment. Letting players exploit free frame invulnerability would result in some players abusing it to the point of burning out due to boredom (at which point they'd defend it as "mandatory").

 

As for alternatives like turning off abilities or disabling their effects results in other problems. Having abilities reset to zero like Ember's Immolation, Equinoz's Mend/Maim, or Grendel losing his stored enemies would be problematic. The inconvenience of needing to recast everything if they were just turned off. Or inconveniencing those who still want their abilities active even with the vulnerability.

The current system is an issue for those who just want to rely on their frame remaining invulnerable without needing to worry about which abilities they can leave active or not. So ultimately we'd just be changing one issue for another but the act of changing it exacerbates the problem, thus leaving it as is is likely the best option overall.

[4thBro]

14 minutes ago, emmyemi said:

Yes, you could solve it by just having the ability do 0 damage or otherwise go inactive while in Operator, but that solution is just as frustrating, if not more so, considering situations where you might need to be frequently popping in and out for utility

How in the actual universe is popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and dealing zero damage for 1.5 seconds just as annoying as popping into Operator for a Zenurik rebuff and DYING? Come on, man.

 

16 minutes ago, emmyemi said:

Would you really prefer to be dealing with your abilities constantly disabling every time you do that? How is that more fun than simply remembering to cancel the abilities yourself, or paying more attention to where and when you park your god body?

What??? Yes, yes I WOULD rather deal with that. Or, rather, they're not disabling, they're just dealing 0 damage, since you said that AFK damage is the issue.

"Remembering to cancel your abilities" aint really it, now, is it? Say you're playing Ember. You're supposed to reset your built-up Heat Gauge every time you Operator?

 

There's a lot more attached to turning off certain abilities than just "hitting the button". A lot of abilities have things like... snapshots, or mechanic build-up, etc. So, no, it's not just a matter of "remembering to disable your stuff".

 

10 minutes ago, trst said:

The good it does is in preventing afk cheese strategies from being even more readily accessible. Players can, and already do, optimize the fun out of the game even when it's at their detriment. Letting players exploit free frame invulnerability would result in some players abusing it to the point of burning out due to boredom (at which point they'd defend it as "mandatory").

So. Who cares? Though?

Lol. Honestly. So, people already do things like this. Okay. But we're gonna keep the "fix" to THIS one particular issue, even though this "fix" hurts other parts of the game?

 

And what's even "cheese" about it? Tell me, what super amazing valuable thing were people AFK farming in mass, before it was fixed by making Frames vulnerable during Operator?

Rubedo?

Give me a break, man. It sincerely feels like all you're really saying is, "Somebody got something while AFK, and that aint right, so no matter what, that needs to be changed, and at any cost!"

Because, realistically, that's what I'm gettin' here in this thread.

 

And, hey, so be it, I guess, right? If I'm the only one that thinks this should be different, then oh well. It's just... the arguments in here are very lackluster to me. Whether it's "oh it's been like this forever so why change it," or, "90% damage reduction is plenty to keep you alive" (it's not, btw). Just kind of lackluster, in my opinion... Kind of disappointing.

 

I feel like there are a lot of pitchforks from casual-level players that simply don't like the idea that somebody does something while AFK, and the fact that nothing relevant can be farmed by this method just goes under the rug. If I'm farming basically anything in this game, I'll take a person contributing to 10% of the objective over some guy quadrupling my Frame's power but being AFK. I'll take that every single time.

And if I could change the game so that I'm able to play Void Cascade on every Frame, but in the process, allow some guy to buff his friends for free while staring as his screen as he sits in Void Mode for hours, then I'll also take that trade.

Every.

Single.

Time.

 

I dunno, guys. I'm going to bed, but maybe consider lowering the pitchforks and bettering the game for people actually playing it. Or in other words, pick your battles. Maybe hurting the people that... [did what, exactly? I'm still not sure]... at the expense of shutting out a wide array of legitimate Frames & builds from game content... maybe that wasn't the battle to pick?

[trst]

15 minutes ago, 4thBro said:

So. Who cares? Though?

Lol. Honestly. So, people already do things like this. Okay. But we're gonna keep the "fix" to THIS one particular issue, even though this "fix" hurts other parts of the game?

 

And what's even "cheese" about it? Tell me, what super amazing valuable thing were people AFK farming in mass, before it was fixed by making Frames vulnerable during Operator?

Rubedo?

Give me a break, man. It sincerely feels like all you're really saying is, "Somebody got something while AFK, and that aint right, so no matter what, that needs to be changed, and at any cost!"

Because, realistically, that's what I'm gettin' here in this thread.

The devs care, so too should players. The problem is balancing between preventing players from ruining the game for themselves and maintaining the "power fantasy".

And like I said the solution in place does cause a problem in a specific circumstance but any other solution is going to cause problems in others. Thus leaving it as is and learning to work around it is going to be the best course of action as changing it just results in creating new friction with a different group of players.

And the "cheese" would be having any lingering/channeled ability remain active while having your frame indefinitely invulnerable. And the things players farm by employing AKF strategies is literally everything that can drop out of enemies (resources, mods, affinity, focus, etc) while often also farming endless mission rewards. The issues with this should be very obvious.

 

But the overall point isn't about other players getting rewarded while AFK, which is a valid complaint btw, but the harm to does both to the game and the players. The primary issue is when players seize the opportunity to put as little effort in as possible while still getting rewarded, which enough will end up doing, they inevitably get bored due to the lack of engagement. For some players this results in a downward spiral of boredom ending in burnout. At which point players either leave the game entirely, play considerably less, or grow to resent the game through misinterpreting their issue as the game's fault. And all of that is bad for both the players and the devs running the game.

[Stafelund]

I would honestly rather have the channeled abilities get automatically disabled when you are in operator mode than getting them damaged. I mean, it also makes sense since your warframe is idle without your influence and  this is what I expected since the beginning. And at the same time it will prevent any possible BS where operator gameplay is mandatory like what OP had pointed out.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Stafelund

[(PSN)robotwars7]

personally I don't mind it, one can take steps like hiding your frame in a harder-to-reach place where enemies are less likely to hit them, or using arcanes like Magus Repair which will constantly heal your frame when you are outside of it. I definitely WOULDN'T want the abilities to be disabled on transference, that would just make frames clunkier, and the system we have now isn't so bad.

another option could be for the power in question to temporarily transfer to Operator/drifter for like 20 seconds, so the frame no longer has it and can therefore go invincible, while you still get the benefit of the power. that's the only other option I can think of, and having invulnerability as well as passive powers during transference is leaning in the direction of AFK gameplay, which is where DE draw the line. 

[Surbusken]

Where would you get the energy to stay in operator permanently´? That's the premise right, to force you out of operator?

 

Energy pizza spam every 30 seconds sure but then you are definitely using a macro.

I just don't see the channeled ability that is going to cause the day after the titanic 2012 AFK rift in the continuum, I really don't.

They don't exist.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

9 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Some abilities being active on your Frame while you are using Operator make your Frame vulnerable to being damaged. I say "some abilities" because there seems to be no real rhyme or reason as to which abilities cause this. I used to believe it was defensive abilities, however I recently discovered that Hall of Mirrors (Mirage's clones) also causes her to become vulnerable during Operator use.

 

I ask you this:

What good does this do for the game?

 

If we can't really come up with a good answer here... ... ... may we please remove this grief-ass mechanic? Lol.

 

To start the discussion, if I haven't already:

If we were to say that it's the presence of an active defensive ability that causes your Frame to be vulnerable during Operator, I ask... why? Is that not backwards? Why punish players that are keeping a conscious mind on their defenses, while someone with zero defenses get to remain invulnerable? Think about that for a second. Pack 4 offensive abilities, remain invulnerable. Pack a defensive ability, get punished and get killed.

Is that what we want? Because we're voting with our silence right now.

 

Let's talk about this, please.

So, you want to cheese through the high level content of the game? Nah, hard pass. 

[4thBro]

2 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

So, you want to cheese through the high level content of the game? Nah, hard pass. 

I'm going to ask this again, because I didn't get an answer from anyone:

 

WHAT, exactly, were people "cheese farming" while sitting in Void Mode?

Specifically.

 

This is the discussion's current question.

[Santiclause]

I think it makes a certain kind of sense that there is a detriment to maintaining channeled abilities while in operator - if frame vulnerability is that detriment, then sure, OK.

 

...but it's not just channeled abilities, though? There are many abilities that leave you vulnerable that you _just cannot turn off_ - so what's the option, just don't go operator, or don't use those abilities? Kinda cringe tbh.