Lore Implications from Duviri | Spoilers

[Joezone619]

So, to my understanding the drifter made duviri during or directly after the void jump incident on the zarimon 10-0. That means everything in duviri must have been seen or known by the drifter at one point or another when they were a child. Everything that happens in duviri pre and post new war is all canonically before the new war, as drifter always has lotus's hand in place of their own in duviri. Correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, warframe lore is very confusing, duviri exponentially more so.

Vor: Somehow vor made it to the undercroft. Now this can be explained by the man in the wall calling him there, as he has made vor one of his acolytes. His appearance at least makes sense, we know time doesn't work right in the void so long as the thing/person in question is in the void. Vor has entered the void at after being humiliated by the tenno (twice), and has never left.

Jackel: Makes no sense. The undercroft is the unconscious mind of the dominous thrax, who is a creation of the drifter's mind. His appearance anywhere in duviri means that:
A: Parvos granum MUST have been born, grown up, and founded the corpus before the zarimon 10-0.
B: The corpus MUST have been well established before the zarimon 10-0.
C: The corpus MUST have designed the jackel before the zarimon 10-0.

Without all of these conditions being met within the lore, Jackel has no canonical possibility to be in duviri. He was never sent into the void like vor and even if he was, he is not an acolyte of wally like vor is. Meaning that the drifter MUST have seen a jackel unit at some point before or during their time on the zarimon 10-0 to have memories of it for wally to use in duviri's creation and place it in the undercroft.

We know for a fact that wally cannot interact with anyone he wants anywhere they are at any time. For him to interact with someone they MUST have entered the void at one point or another for an extended period of time. We know this because Albrecht Entrati, our player character, everyone on the zarimon 10-0, and vor have all entered the void for an extended period of time, and in one way or another was directly affected by wally. This heavily implies that wally cannot interact with anyone on short term trips to the void.

In short, jackel either isn't in duviri/undercroft, or he was made much much much earlier then we all thought. Which alone doesn't make sense, because the whole reason we assassinate him is to prevent more from being made before he gets mass produced.
(Ya see why adding random stuff into duviri is a bad idea DE?)

Edited July 28, 2023 by Joezone619

[Atsia]

1 hour ago, Joezone619 said:

That means everything in duviri must have been seen or known by the drifter at one point or another when they were a child.

It doesn't, no. All Drifter did was get it started, but how it develops from there is happenstance and Wally machinations.

[PsiWarp]

Portals can open in the Undercroft, that was established with the Golden Maw becoming an invasive species in Duviri's waterways.

The Corpus sent to raid the Zariman are under Parvos Granum's control, so I wouldn't be surprised if he sent a few Jackals in there between shipments to try and gain a foothold. Time is a block according to Eternalism, and the Void can let you experience each side of said block, past, present, and future.

[trst]

Duviri is a literal place that exists as evident from Albrecht having visited it and constructed Scholar's Landing as well as Teshin. And while we don't exactly know if we've ever met Albrecht pre Old War we do know that the Drifter never met Teshin. So it's more so that the Drifter created the foundation for Duviri but external things can still alter it.

As for the Jackal specifically we don't know the exact extent of what the Corpus or Grineer have been doing on the Zariman nor how much Wally's influence extends within it. After all the Zariman is literally in the middle of the rift between our dimension and the Void. So for all we really know anything that has boarded the Zariman could be free game for having made contact with the Void/Wally.

Though since we've not seen Jackals in the Zariman this is all assuming things that have happened "off screen". So yes, we have no concrete explanation as to why the Jackal is in there (assuming of course there's no new dialogue explaining it).

[0_The_F00l]

Yeah best of luck with making sense of the timeline , its just a blob of eternalism where anything goes at this point.

But to try and get a handle on it,

Duviri is a mix of dreamscape of one or more creators (including drifter), on some influences from the real world (zariman) and active effects of the voids interpretation of certain actions happening that greatly affect it (as our journey through the game goes),

Its a mosaic, if you will, where different hands made different tiles and is now being put together and not always in the order they were made.

Being a dreamscape it is sometimes prophetic and sometimes realtime and sometimes just historical across different worlds and like any dream its difficult to realise which is which until you wake up.

Edited July 28, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

That means everything in duviri must have been seen or known by the drifter at one point or another when they were a child. 

First of all, everything in DUVIRI is based on the storybook. But Duviri is not the whole Void, not even close.

Secondly, the Void doesn't need to make sense. That's not a bad writing cop-out, it's an alternate dimension where logic, reason, space, and time as we know them go to die bleeding and screaming from a thousand cuts. Duviri Jackal could be anything from a construct Vor made in the image of his memories, to a shipping container that got blown into a wormhole after the Tempestari quest, to the reincarnated soul of a Jackal you will kill tomorrow when farming for gallium, or something else entirely. The Void is just weird like that

[chaotea]

3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

That means everything in duviri must have been seen or known by the drifter at one point or another when they were a child.

Not quite. Think of Duviri as an island in the sea that is the void. While much of duviri was created under the will of the Drifter / Thrax (thrax being the embodyment of the drifter as a child) the undercroft was not. The undercroft is a space where the unreality of the void and the stable construct of Duviri entwine. And within the void time isnt linier, as past present and future all coexist.

3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Jackel: Makes no sense.

Remember that the corpus, grineer and even the Trax didnt exist until after the orokin fell. As Teshin says these are 'armies that do not yet exist'. They are more shadows, or reflections of those that might in the future. Even Vor may not be the real vor, but the voids reflected version of Vor.

 

Its also worth remembering that while Duviri may have been formed during the incidents of the 10-0 crash, time is different in duviri, the drifter and the oporator are effectivly immortal (we see our oporator in the flesh during an old war flashback). Most likely thier physical form is a construct affected by emotional growth or how they percive themselves.

Either way, the drifter has been trying to escape Duviri for a long time, combined with the time he was the ruler, so that chronologically Duviri timeline is more or less equal to the timeline of the main story.

[-Krism-]

Misspelling "Zariman" 6 times in a row speaks a lot about your understanding of the lore & attention toward the story

[mariberry-hearn]

The Undercroft, being stated to be very close to the actual Void, is basically the backend code of Duviri. That pretty much explains why a lot of familiar enemies and environments can just casually show up there. Teshin also mentions that we can directly influence the history of the Origin System through the Undercroft, so with that, the Jackal's presence can be chalked up to either of these two things:

- The Jackal is a manifestation directly from our Operator's memories

- A similar case to Undercroft Defense, where we're fighting a void manifestation of the Jackal to undo the losses of Tenno fighting the real Jackal back in the Origin

Another thing to take note: in an off-hand comment, Cavalero mentions that Granum tried to hire him, so it's already established that the Corpus was founded before the Zariman.

Edited July 28, 2023 by mariberry-hearn

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Jackel: Makes no sense. The undercroft is the unconscious mind of the dominous thrax, who is a creation of the drifter's mind. His appearance anywhere in duviri means that:
A: Parvos granum MUST have been born, grown up, and founded the corpus before the zarimon 10-0.
B: The corpus MUST have been well established before the zarimon 10-0.
C: The corpus MUST have designed the jackel before the zarimon 10-0.

Without all of these conditions being met within the lore, Jackel has no canonical possibility to be in duviri. He was never sent into the void like vor and even if he was, he is not an acolyte of wally like vor is. Meaning that the drifter MUST have seen a jackel unit at some point before or during their time on the zarimon 10-0 to have memories of it for wally to use in duviri's creation and place it in the undercroft.

You've got it all wrong. Undercroft is the edge of the void, it isnt tied to Thrax, it is where things can slip into Duviri from reality (like the Maw), and things from Duviri end up there aswell, like Thrax, Dax and well the land pieces themselves. And if you take time to listen to Teshin during missions he also hints that what we experience in the Undercroft are at times mirror events that have happened, happens or will happen, and what we do can impact how they turned, turn or will turn out in reality. But like the Maw and Vor the Jackal may very well be a new arrival that has simply ended up there for one reason or another. Who knows if there was a Corpus ship accident involving the void which resulted in a Jackal ending up there, or if something happened when the Corpus tried to do something on the Zariman after it re-emerged. There are many explainations as to how a thing can end up in the Undercroft. It is no different that things from Duviri making it into reality both on Zariman and Lua.

ABC, no to all of them. While Parvos and the corpus were established, they werent corpus at that point in time. And in the end since the void is timeless neither A, B or C would be needed in order for Jack to be in the Undercroft. Practically nothing we face in the Undercroft exsisted when the Zariman accident happened. Potentially some form of grineer exsisted since we have the Thrax units, however they can also just be based on some form of Dax types. Plus, regarding the Jackal, it is as far as I remember a new prototype corpus creation when we go to take it out for the first time. 

And Vor wasnt sent to the void, he went their on his own in some way. And by the sound of it he did so in order to seek out Wally to join him.

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

6 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

A: Parvos granum MUST have been born, grown up, and founded the corpus before the zarimon 10-0.
B: The corpus MUST have been well established before the zarimon 10-0.
C: The corpus MUST have designed the jackel before the zarimon 10-0.

A: the Zariman incideent happened at the tail-end of the Orokin age. after that was the Old War and then straight after that, the Collapse. the Tenet Entries from the Granum Statues found on the Corpus Ship tileset that you can collect detail Parvos' founding of the Corpus: he was a younger man back then, but Corpus have exceptionally long lifespans for humans: Darvo is approximately 150 years old, and once made a point of saying this to frohd bek, as if to say he has entered true corpus adulthood and is independant now.

B: they were well-established long before the Zariman: the Tenet entries explain that Parvos founded the Corpus by loaning people money., but also spreading word of his tenets and the "voice of desire" that he claims compels him. this became a merchant group known as the Corpus, and it was considered an illegal organization by the Orokin, primarily because the distribution of wealth meant others could rise above their station, which the Orokin did not want: they wanted to stay in charge and the peasantry to remain as peasants. the Orokin took measures against the Corpus, and Vauban Prime's trailer suggests that Vauban was made specifically to keep the Corpus in check.

C: there's never been a sighting of a golden age jackal, but it's not impossible since MOAs existed during the Orokin Empire: they are the same MOAs that we see fightign as part of the Corrupted and they are basically identical to the Corpus Fusion MOA. they are mentioned in one of the synthesis entries as having fought alongside Dax, likely serving as expendable scouts and shock troops. it would seem that the technology for Corpus Proxies is reverse engineered from Orokin Tech, much in the same way that Tenno weapons are reverse engineered counterparts of Orokin weapons that are easier to mass produce. would've made sense for a Corrupted Jackal to appear in Duviri, but ah well.