We need hard endgame content so people have a reason to farm all these stuff.

[Zaghyr]

On 2023-08-01 at 10:31 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

It's the dream man, we support it, we're actually with you, you're preaching to the choir. We're just not the majority, and the majority pays the bills.

We've been asking for years for difficulty spikes. We got SP, we got eximus overhaul, we got archons, we got undercroft -- all steps in the right direction, but we also got an avalanche of new power creep that rendered it all meaningless. As if we weren't boosted enough, here comes warframe overguard. They're too scared of alienating the majority. Just look at all the backlash still happening for eximus. The warframe playerbase is mindless and pathetic, and there's nothing I can think of that we can do about that.

And sadly we'll probably never get truly challenging content. I understand the appeal and the fun of being an overpowered badass and slaughtering everything on the screen. But what I don't understand, is how players thinks it's fun to do that 100% of the time. I'm sorry, but perma deleting everything off the screen and essentially playing on auto-pilot because you no longer have to think about the game is not fun, it's egregiously boring. Unfortunately, DE is forced to cater to that mentality because it's what the vast majority of the playerbase thinks is fun gameplay. The funnest part of this game is thinking of cool and interesting ways to overcome obstacles. It's not fun to sit in one spot and spam kuva bramma at the wall or spam old spin to win with whips. Also, the eximus update was one of the greatest things they have done for this game, everyone else can keep crying about it until the end of time.

 

On 2023-07-31 at 12:59 PM, CrownOfShadows said:

Yeah I agree with you, I want smart, dangerous, challenging enemies, not boring pushovers. Unfortunately, I think the majority of the WF population prefers dumb, easy enemies, and even more unfortunately, so do the devs, and so do 99% of youtubers who say that if something doesn't melt a room in one click it's trash. We are quite obviously not the target audience of WF, as cool as we find it's other systems and aesthetics.

Outside of really cool synergy guides, or build based content that is explicitly catered towards steel path or level cap, most videos that show a build or explain how good or bad something is, are complete trash, and will harm the game in the long run. Like you said, if it doesn't instantly kill the room then it's trash, apparently. I just saw a video recently going over the duviri arcanes, and apparently all but 2 of them are trash, and those 2 are just mediocre. Arcane Reaper, or Primary Exhilarate, or Shotgun Vendetta, to a normal player, are actually really nice arcanes. But to the KILL EVERYTHING KILL EVERYTHING KILL EVERTHING, mindset pushed by most youtubers and streamers, why would you every use these arcanes when the Acolyte arcanes exist. At this point, just to FORCE the playerbase to actually thing about arcane usage and give them a try, I think DE should nerf the acolyte arcanes into the ground. Those arcanes should just be the generic, simple arcanes that can slot any build if you don't have anything else that has actual synergy with your build, a fallback option. They should not be the default option on every weapon in the game at every point in time.

[Zaghyr]

On 2023-08-02 at 10:28 AM, Silligoose said:

Difficult content would be great if it can be achieved without erosion the game's mechanics and gameplay as we tend to see. Current Archon fights in Archon Hunts are examples of content in which various options to players are completely nullified in order to make the game harder, but it is also an example of low effort content in which far too many mechanics are sacrificed in an attempt to increase difficulty. Overguard is another example of an attempt at more difficult content, but again comes with the erosion of gameplay, seeing as how it completely nullifies damage type, as well as completely negating certain forms of cc.

Overguard enriches gameplay, it doesn't erode it. Lord forbid you have to stop spamming your room-wide hard cc ability for a second to engage is gunplay for a few seconds. Some of the most boring missions to play are ones where 1 or 2 frames have the entire map cc'd for the entire mission. If I wanted to shoot enemies that couldn't fight back, I would go to simulacrum. And if perma CC, and by extension invalidating core components of gameplay, is what constitutes good gameplay, then DE should just remove enemies all together and just make the mission "Deal damage to some target dummies for little while". 

[Zaghyr]

On 2023-08-14 at 1:38 PM, DrBorris said:

I could keep gushing about Circuit Jackal. The more I think on it, the more I am starting to think it is my favorite boss fight in the game and maybe even a good boss fight in general (which is big for a Warframe boss). And while I get that "favorite" is just an opinion, the complete lack of acknowledgement for what Jackal objectively does makes me think people quite literally don't see it. They just see a health bar they can kill, they are so caught up in meta-commentary of "difficult" that the gameplay in front of them is pointless, because Circuit jackal doesn't represent what they want it to represent it isn't good. 

They designed Circuit Jackal well. They removed a lot of potential cheese tactics and the boss still makes you engage with core mechanics or gameplay; aiming, distancing, parkour, map awareness etc. The only things I would change with the right itself, is to let more warframe abilities have some kind of affect, albeit severely limited, give the Jackal more varied attacks, and improve the UI for its health bar to show the leg segments. The missile barrage was a great addition overall, and players can even cheese that by using void mode.

[Silligoose]

5 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

Overguard enriches gameplay, it doesn't erode it. Lord forbid you have to stop spamming your room-wide hard cc ability for a second to engage is gunplay for a few seconds. Some of the most boring missions to play are ones where 1 or 2 frames have the entire map cc'd for the entire mission. If I wanted to shoot enemies that couldn't fight back, I would go to simulacrum. And if perma CC, and by extension invalidating core components of gameplay, is what constitutes good gameplay, then DE should just remove enemies all together and just make the mission "Deal damage to some target dummies for little while". 

If enemies can't really fight back due to the player nuking everything with weapons, would a good solution be to make those enemies immune to weapon damage? It is the same principle, No, it wouldn't be, and it is a terrible solution, because it would affect frames that rely more on weapon damage as a means of offense, disproportionately to too great an extent. It is also a terrible solution, because the problem is not that enemies can take damage from weapons, but how much relative damage they take from weapons along with mechanics such as distance from point of contact. Either the damage output, or the area of effect, or enemy durability, or a combination of these factors, should be addressed. instead of some blanket solution that brings with it imbalances.

Same goes for cc: Cc is a fundamental mechanic that is used in balancing survivability and offense and some frames are affected disproportionately to too great an extent by the introduction of Overguard. In addition, the problem isn't enemies being cc'd. The problem is the how long enemies can be cc'd for, the extent to which they can be cc'd and how large an area/amount of enemies can be cc'd. That is what should've been addressed, instead of a lazy blanket solution.

Having different viable options in survivability and offense available and having synergistic combinations within those options, is what grants the game depth. THAT is what enrichens gameplay. Introducing mechanics that invalidates those options by and large against what tends to be the most dangerous and durable enemies in a mission, is destroying that depth.

In addition, there are various damage types that has different status effects and damage bonusses against different types of enemies. Overguard negates much of the depth associated with damage-type mechanics, since it is neutral to damage-types and nullifies some status effects.

Overguard is a bad, lazy solution to the cc problem. Archon fights are bad boss fights as they are riddled with band-aid solutions that leads to engagements being very, very similar regardless, since it invalidates various mechanics that serve to grant this game depth.

[(NSW)Free_Aetharus]

13 hours ago, Zaghyr said:

Having a new star chart type based around this would be cool. Rather can a gear/damage check, it's a knowledge/mechanics check. 

We need a challenge that doesn't check that your revenant can face-tank everything with mesmer. We need a challenge that also considers whether as a consequence of you being stationary or too much of a scrublord, you don't hit your opponent, but your passivity guarantees that your opponent always hits you. A boss that's capable of dodging and moving wildly, though predictably, to push you to be your best self, is nice. Nothing 'too' quick, requiring hundreds of different inputs, or combos of inputs. Just the ability to aim, aim well, and not be aimed at better.

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

so the steel path exists for hard fights and people still don't think thats end game enough when enemies can go up to level cap ?

I think people like that need to go play other games like soulsborne stuff and leave my poor warframe alone its got enough of an identity crisis going on with everything else in this game as it is.

every week I do circuit with my clan mates and fight steel path so i kill stuff that goes pretty high and get my rewards and i don't complain about wanting more end game stuff people need to chill out.

 

one thing i don't want in this game is Raids that is one big headache. sure it's considered end game content but it's also a pain in the ass if you have a clan that not everyone is active all the time like mine and then you gotta pull in random people and show them how to do the raid fights for that one evening and if they suck well you just wasted time teaching someone how to do it for nothing.   my clan is a total of about 8 people but only 5 or 6 are active but all on different schedules and maybe 3-4 of us get on once in awhile at the same time. so really  raiding would suck for a clan like mine and i imagine for other small clans too.

[Famecans]

procedural maps tilesets; random real time level modfiers; random real time drop chance...

[TheArmchairThinker]

Sorry to break it to you, but "endgame" is a hogwash. The so-called endgame is a moving goalpost that keeps moving the limit further and we can delete level 9999 enemies even with steel path modifier so there's nothing hard unless we nerf everything out.

Another thing about "endgame" is the same grind but with another look and higher stats. If we're going with the usual, you would have grinded the same warframe for 33 times because the one from 2014 would be completely useless. Warframe doesn't go with this model and I'm glad since I'm not falling far behind to the point it's impossible to catch up if I don't play for an extended period

And if you want it hard, DE can always make it mechanically such as a demolyst on every wave taking 20% of objective health on defense or enemies attacking all points at the same time in missions like interception or armageddon, requiring you to have maximum efficiency on fighting enemies especially on solo

[Famecans]

The fact is that reaching level 9999 means we have broken warframes, or broken mechanics, or broken damage system, or enemies have broken resistances.

I hate luminous enemies, enemy skill spam, multitarget leveling up, insanely fast giant boss like they have no weight or physics, I hate spawn spam, I hate hitkill, I hate enemy aimbot with hitscan projectiles; i hate line of sight auras, i hate nullifying bubbles, i hate bubbles going through walls, i hate enemies with exaggerated ephemera looking like fireworks, i hate multiple auras looking like fireworks, i hate enemies throwing fireworks at me, I hate those things inside the blender...

the game is falling into a paradox where we don't know if things are heading towards mobile family friendly gameplay or bleak hardcore pc gameplay but i know DE can go both ways.

Enemies need to be smart, spawns need to be smart, each enemy must know exactly which player will hunt and with what level of difficulty and agility he will attack, each enemy must know what the target is 1st 2nd 3rd etc... that way there will be no difficulty conflict as the spawn/game/map will understand each player.

The new AI should rank the enemies, the longer the enemy survives, the more bonuses this enemy receives. If the enemy was spawned with a lot of health he shouldn't do much damage because his AI gradual increase will be the damage; if the enemy does a lot of damage and hitkill hits he won't be fast because his AI gradual increase will be speed; if the enemy is very fast his gradual increase will be health, aim, aura...

Newbies faced with hectic gameplay spawns will act like newbies, hide in small rooms and receive less aggressive spawns while experienced players have received increased alertness level meaning newbies have opportunities to support while veterans need to survive. these analyzes can be done by game for periods based on mission statistics.

I feel the repetition of the old tilesets as there are many obvious doors/gates that will never open and will never intertwine with other tilesets. I know that unlocking these tileset connections won't change the fun but it will ease the exploration enjoyment as some junctions are as repetitive and obvious as two halves of an orange. Zariman has the most dynamic tilesets in the entire game with objects, panels, doors and even interactive trash cans, boosters and map abilities, places to break, trophies to hunt...

I don't like historical inconsistencies but I like the Warframe 1999 approach, so I hope the DE knows what they're doing because the Warframe 1999 theme is very curious and ambitious but it can't lead us to dead ends, I don't like it of walls without doors.

😒👍

[balckillofdeath]

i generally like warframe but alot of abilities are straight up broken when you think about it for example. nyx can literally go immortal while using her full kit with augment.

enemines can hardly do anything to you combine that with the magnetic resistance arcane and they dont even have chance to remove your energy at all. nullifiers and even overguard matter little to her. (see nullifer? pop out to operator dash away or using operator to get close for taking it out!) hop back in go back to destruction.

valkyr can either be ridculously tanky or immortal with her 4.

revenant needs little energy draw and now has up to 12 seconds of literal invincibility. with no major downside unlike nyx or valkyr!

shields matter so little and high levels that most people probably dont run anything for them. excepting to abuse shield gate as much as possible(personally i think that needs a massive rework that rewards players for having high amounts of shields not just having max amount of shields) 

basically like gaining x/x+300  damage reduction for every shield point if one hitted. yes hilydryn would benefit massively but so would harrow. other frames benefit more

or you have damage reduction of nearly 99.9% as a frame through adaptaion, nidus 3 on enemy and armor!  meaning to kill nidus and enemy has to do somewhere in the range of like 1 million damage.  making invincibility/damage reduction stacking the only viable strategies for survival.

some abilites have infinite scaling damage though to be fair most of them scale either very slowly or rely on some thing else.

 

though if we arent gonna change the entirety for surviability in its entirety.  in another topic, it has always bothered me that arbitations and steel path are different modes merge them.

i know some people would hate it but really it would think arbitration drones sort of balance the playing field between enemies and players power levels. one of my favorite enemies in the game is the bursa where you not only have to dodge knockdown attacks but position yourself just right to do damage.  i think arbitration drones were just part of normal steel path people would complain a lot less with difficulty.

[Iron-Blurr]

I completely agree. This game has no real endgame and it's just too easy. I come from WoW and ESO. Im very use to the grind but I want HARD content. In ESO we had 12 man raids with complex mechanics and strategies and people needed to coordinate on Discord. We had to make sure to bring the proper configuration of characters for the goal we were trying to achieve. 
The raids and all the content in the game had 2 basic modes. Normal(easy) and Veteran mode(basically steel path) BUT unlike warframe in those raids there was something else called HM(hard mode) to activate. This made the raid very difficult and complex and it was as big a jump from veteran mode as normal was to veteran. 
The end game in ESO (besides fashion) was achievement hunting. In those raids there were achievements for Speed run(completing the raid within time limit usually 30 mins), Hard mode(All the fight mechanics and phases at the same time) and No death(not a single member of your 12 man team dies) as well as other meme requirements. There was also the cream of the crop achievement people strived for. Trifecta achievements. That's doing the Hard mode within speed run time constraints while not having a single member die. That was something raid teams would strive for endlessly week after week month after month. 
Beyond this there was the insane super cracked 0.01% of players that did something called leaderboard score pushing. That's basically being so good you farm trifectas and try to do them faster and faster using any and all creative methods to inch out other top raid teams to be the best in the world. All of these raid completion scores were kept in a leaderboard system and that's what end game pve was. 
The game also had pvp with many modes and it's own open world with insanely hard achievements but that is less relevant to warframe. 

The reason I am suggesting this is because I have over 8k hours in ESO and had about 6-7k hours in Wow. In warframe i have about 300ish hours and I've already completed the story have a full build for steel path and I'm sort of stuck. I can farm other warframes and level them but for what? I can farm other weapons but I'm happy with my loadout that allows me to melt steel path. I can farm for other random things but there's no reason. All I'm doing now is farming Archon shards to get the Tau forged ones but realistically I don't need them. I'm not even using a broken OP loadout and I'm not playing cheese s+ frames like rev or octavia or other invis cheesing. Im just an volt player that exclusively plays solo and steel path is not the challenge I hoped it was. I can only imagine how easy it would be in a 4 man squad. Sure I could go for endless 9999 survival and I do intend to since one of my favorite games in the past was Call of duty zombies and getting to higher and higher rounds was a lot of fun. But these days I dont have 12+ hours to play back to back. 

So I hate to say it but I'm sort of losing interest in warframe. Which sucks because I think it has the best movement mechanics and fun gameplay of any game I've ever played and I have spent quite a bit on platinum purchases but there's just nothing really hard enough for me to aspire to achieve which is sad. I log on and think to myself what do I wana do? I don't really know so after eating popcorn while reading Region chat and redecorating my orbiter and adjusting some fashion stuff i get bored and log off. It really shouldn't be this way. The game should retain is hardcore grinders and big spenders not bore them and make them consider other game options. 

[Sammonoske]

Can't have endgame content or raids with the current combination of invincible frames and busted weapon setups.

[PHOSPHATIDYLETHANOLAMINE]

SP+
just like regular SP but lvl x100
(still easy)

[CrownOfShadows]

On 2023-09-23 at 1:15 PM, Sammonoske said:

Can't have endgame content or raids with the current combination of invincible frames and busted weapon setups.

No, you can, you just have to counter them instead of invalidating them.

On 2023-09-21 at 12:05 PM, Iron-Blurr said:

So I hate to say it but I'm sort of losing interest in warframe. Which sucks because I think it has the best movement mechanics and fun gameplay of any game I've ever played and I have spent quite a bit on platinum purchases but there's just nothing really hard enough for me to aspire to achieve which is sad. I log on and think to myself what do I wana do? I don't really know so after eating popcorn while reading Region chat and redecorating my orbiter and adjusting some fashion stuff i get bored and log off. It really shouldn't be this way. The game should retain is hardcore grinders and big spenders not bore them and make them consider other game options. 

^^ This right here summarizes everything perfectly. I just don't understand why DE can't focus for 2 seconds on meaningful end-game activities. Newcomers have tons of stuff to do, veterans have nothing.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

No, you can, you just have to counter them instead of invalidating them.

Good luck. DE have been trying to do exactly that for the better part of 8 years.

[(NSW)Greybones]

9 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

No, you can, you just have to counter them instead of invalidating them.

^^ This right here summarizes everything perfectly. I just don't understand why DE can't focus for 2 seconds on meaningful end-game activities. Newcomers have tons of stuff to do, veterans have nothing.

Are you referring to merely settling for countering threats instead of invalidating them? Because someone’s gonna find a way to invalidate them, and then you’re stuck with the choice of doing whatever they’re doing or not.

Also vets have more to do than newbies and more ways to do it in

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

52 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Are you referring to merely settling for countering threats instead of invalidating them? Because someone’s gonna find a way to invalidate them, and then you’re stuck with the choice of doing whatever they’re doing or not.

Also vets have more to do than newbies and more ways to do it in

Strongly disagree. DE does not care about veteran players in the slightest nor do they cater to us at all at least in the past 3 years since SP and it's changes came out.

[(NSW)Greybones]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Strongly disagree. DE does not care about veteran players in the slightest nor do they cater to us at all at least in the past 3 years since SP and it's changes came out.

That’s because veteran players don’t care about anything except the one way to play while grinding for things they never use, even as the game continuously introduces new alternatives to work into different ways to build from the modless start we’re always beginning with regardless of whether we’re 2 hours or 2k hours in. The main difference between a newbie and a veteran is the amount of options available of builds, loadouts, and missions to mix and match into different playstyles, and your typical veteran is so caught up on OpPoRtUniTy CoSt and efficiency that the game can’t offer them anything they’d consider worth using and when the game offers any semblance of challenge, they seek out the best way to invalidate it regardless of how few options are available to do so.

So this build-crafting sandbox game caters to veterans, and most veterans aren’t interested in what it has to offer

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Strongly disagree. DE does not care about veteran players in the slightest nor do they cater to us at all at least in the past 3 years since SP and it's changes came out.

Also plenty of them suck at the gameplay part since all they’ve known for most of their playtime is their builds doing all the carrying, so in some ways they can’t engage with any challenge using alternative options because they just die straight away and scurry to whatever makes the game as easy as possible

Edited September 25, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[motorfirebox]

Eh. DE already tried the route of creating content that only a tiny fraction of the active playerbase would be able to experience. It ended up taking too much of their time for not enough gain.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

24 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

That’s because veteran players don’t care about anything except the one way to play while grinding for things they never use, even as the game continuously introduces new alternatives to work into different ways to build from the modless start we’re always beginning with regardless of whether we’re 2 hours or 2k hours in. The main difference between a newbie and a veteran is the amount of options available of builds, loadouts, and missions to mix and match into different playstyles, and your typical veteran is so caught up on OpPoRtUniTy CoSt and efficiency that the game can’t offer them anything they’d consider worth using and when the game offers any semblance of challenge, they seek out the best way to invalidate it regardless of how few options are available to do so.

So this build-crafting sandbox game caters to veterans, and most veterans aren’t interested in what it has to offer

While I also get the majority of my fun by looking at Warframe like a sandbox, that doesn't really mean anything is catered to us. We simply just have more options for loadouts. 

21 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Eh. DE already tried the route of creating content that only a tiny fraction of the active playerbase would be able to experience. It ended up taking too much of their time for not enough gain.

People looking for end game activities are not a tiny fraction of players.

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

While I also get the majority of my fun by looking at Warframe like a sandbox, that doesn't really mean anything is catered to us. We simply just have more options for loadouts. 

That’s kind of what you’re earning in the first place; even if you found the most optimal loadout and build combination and specifically designed it to grind as fast as possible, there are alternatives being presented, and only chasing efficient grind is extremely limiting and ultimately renders the grind itself pointless if the stuff being earned isn’t going to be used (which it can be alongside grinding and earning even more things to use).

You’re talking about being catered to as players who did the research, made the builds, broke the game, and now want the game to unbreak itself and force you to have built that way in the first place instead of it being a personal goal though, yeah?

Edited September 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

That’s kind of what you’re earning in the first place; even if you found the most optimal loadout and build combination and specifically designed it to grind as fast as possible, there are alternatives being presented, and only chasing efficient grind is extremely limiting and ultimately renders the grind itself pointless if the stuff being earned isn’t going to be used (which it can be alongside grinding and earning even more things to use).

You’re talking about being catered to as players who did the research, made the builds, broke the game, and now want the game to unbreak itself and force you to have built that way in the first place instead of it being a personal goal though, yeah?

There is another option in a perfect world. Interesting game mechanics and boss fights. Even something that requires coop would be an ok step.

[(NSW)Greybones]

49 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

There is another option in a perfect world. Interesting game mechanics and boss fights. Even something that requires coop would be an ok step.

Those exist. Yes some of them could be refined and adjusted (particularly some boss fights), but they do exist and most of them are pretty good. They’re tied to things like levels, with all the stats for survival and damage that come with that, to facilitate player understanding of what they’re built for and where they sit with said build/loadout. And since this game has a “Power comes with a literal cost” design where we can either have maximum power or maximum customisation or a mix of the two, the different levels of content in this game are designed to span every build we can make from the modless/arcaneless/schoolless start and any combination we make using the components available, the pool of which is ever growing and long-term players have already obtained

And then some players decide to take a higher-level build lower and, unsurprisingly, the content gets blown to pieces while being unable to scratch the player. In fact, plenty of times that’s why players do it in the first place; unconcerned with variety, they just want to grind fast and easy for things that technically could be used, but remain a mere entry in a spreadsheet

If you want to talk boss designs, mechanics, and co-op, you need to know what you’re working with, and because you’re working with a game designed from the ground up to facilitate variety, you need to be able to cater to that variety instead of expecting the game to be designed around the fewest possible most-powerful builds, which means identifying that cross section between variety and difficulty and designing a fight to require enough power but not so much that variety is entirely sacrificed.

And since your veteran is looking for validation for their fewest most-powerful most game-breaking builds, that puts them at odds with the game as a whole. Especially if they’re expecting the game to be designed around things like Shieldgate abuse. Not to mention there’s no guarantee that they won’t get their content, get squashed, then figure out the next big cheese and then ask for more. As if they’re not asking for harder content, but the chance to discover another new cheese tactic

Edited September 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones
forgot I’m talking about mechanics that some players have never realised existed

[motorfirebox]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

People looking for end game activities are not a tiny fraction of players.

That's an assertion without a lot of evidence to support it, and some reasonably solid evidence against it.