Warframe was amazing before coptering/bjump and so was Railjack before it was made easy

[DrBorris]

The sandbox provided by limitless movement is far more interesting than another game with the exact same movement. I've played enough games where I walk on the ground (sometimes faster), get an occasional double-jump, and if I'm lucky a dash on a cooldown. Basic exploration may be easier, but the limitless movement is just as much an opportunity for tile design as it is a limitation. Gas City has some amazing tiles that take full advantage of our movement, the Secret Laboratories are an in-game counterpoint to your assertion that exploration can't be a thing. 

 

And Railjack is a design mess. Difficulty through tedium is boring and annoying (which is what it was before), but what we have now completely whiffs the potential of Railjack as an evolving and interactive tile that integrates the disparate systems of the game. What we have now is basically a giant Archwing, and for some reason people refuse to acknowledge what they actually want is just a good Archwing rework. Please peoples, stop trying to turn the Railjack into an Archwing, we already have power-fantasy space combat with a variety of abilities. Railjack being a "taxi" is actually the point, it is a taxi between all of the core systems of the game in an immersive/dynamic shell. 

[rockscl]

hace 8 horas, NeoMephisto dijo:

they know how to take risks, they know how to surprise people and make things work; That's the whole reason this game exists

Actually, when one looks at warframe´s meta story so far, the success of this game comes from the community built around it by reb and steve plus(and with no disregard for) a competent team of artists and devs, everything IN the game could have been done in many different ways and quite probably the result would have been the same player population

 

as far as i can remember, every mayor rise in active players comes after an outstanding reveal/release for which bjump had little effect in comparison, at that time people just wanted to let coptering become something that made sense overall, but it wasnt a relevant player attraction ever

 

notorious bumps in population were archwing, cetus and railjack, bjump feels good, but it didnt move a wave

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by rockscl

[DogsConkers]

Bullet jumping is awesome we took a hit when they downgraded void dash into void sling but the Warframe movement system still has the edge over other similar games. 

Such a pity that Railjack never caught on I think if travelling to and landing in the open worlds had been somehow implemented it would have been more successful. With a lack of popularity I guess there just wasn't enough willing participants for everyone to have their own Railjack so DE turned it into a community bus with a 25% chance of being designated driver and adding a 'join ANY game' button on the space map to help people find a squad.

I was hoping for some kind of integration of Railjack into Duviri because you do occasionally see a Wyrm flying alongside the Railjack when warping into a mission.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DogsConkers
structure

[CephalonCarnage]

Railjack was awesome as it was, before it was dumbed down. The whole point of it wasn;t to solo anything, it was the co-op game mode. A mode where you had 6 different things hasppening at once and 4 crew meant you were constantly occupied, constantly challenged to get on with repairs and crafting and shooting and boarding. Warframe has enough game modes where its 4 single-players, RJ was more than that, and it was a thing of beauty.

The trouble is though, DE forgot to explain how it worked and that truly borked it. When I first played, someone asked if it was my first time, thern took the trouble to explain the mechanics. I did the same to newbs every time after that, and every one of them responded extremely positively after playing RJ with understanding. DE is its own worst enemy at times.

 

Maybe the endo farm that its become, the plexus, and the change in fusing it a change for good, and I'd agree, but the gameplay is much the worse for it now.

[(PSN)rexis12]

"Railjack is meant to be for Co-Op"

Then WHY can you play Single Player?! Why didn't they made it so that you need a full Online team before starting?

Why not have online multiplayer be mandatory, like Conclave, if that was so important to it's gameplay.

Because there's "it's easier if it's Co-Op" and then there's "this was designed FOR Co-Op" and if Railjack was made with the latter in mind, why allow Single Player in the first place.

[RichardKam]

3小时前 , (PSN)rexis12 说:

"Railjack is meant to be for Co-Op"

Then WHY can you play Single Player?! Why didn't they made it so that you need a full Online team before starting?

Why not have online multiplayer be mandatory, like Conclave, if that was so important to it's gameplay.

Because there's "it's easier if it's Co-Op" and then there's "this was designed FOR Co-Op" and if Railjack was made with the latter in mind, why allow Single Player in the first place.

This.

Actually the entire Warframe was designed for solo, with option of Co-op for extra benefit (eg higher spawn, more efficiency, more loots, shared affinity, etc). Every content was designed to be solo-able, including Railjack. Hence crewmates.

Surely, even for Railjack 1.0 you can solo all the way to veil as pointed out by others, but in Railjack 2.0 with the introduction of crewmate, there was a great improvement in the solo experience.

Co-op was optional, never mandatory. 

[GovernmentSecrets.gov]

I could not disagree more. I played before the parkour rework and as a new player trying to reach high up hidden rooms was next to impossible and remained so until DE dropped the rework. That rework is a massive blessing. As for OG Railjack I remember it being all around very confusing and buggy. Not being able to solo it was a major annoyance too. I was fond of the old ship interior though. The turrets actually being on the side was a nice touch and you could see everyone at their battle stations instead of a name tag was far cooler and immersive. I'd still take the new railjack over the old any day though.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

Speaking as a newer player, I like the overall setup and non-mandatory co-op.

If it was forced co-op it'd be more toxic than Eidolons probably were back when they were new.  

With crew I can take my time going through and learning.....apart from Orphix.....Orphix blows.

Plus RJ happens to be an excellent source of credits, which you old guard likely don't need but us whippersnappers sure do.

RJ suffers from the exact same issue the rest of the game does, lack of information.  I still don't know what most of the intrinsics have actually unlocked or what they do.

[rockscl]

En 16/9/2023 a las 0:55, Sierra dijo:

trying to reach high up hidden rooms was next to impossible

that was the only reason for their map design to have a value, soon as you make it dissapear and become just another room, from what you say it sounds to me like you never felt the thrill of finding a parkour challenge room and trying to make it to the end of the room this time, that S#&$ was amazing

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2023-09-16 at 1:28 AM, (PSN)rexis12 said:

"Railjack is meant to be for Co-Op"

Then WHY can you play Single Player?! Why didn't they made it so that you need a full Online team before starting?

Why not have online multiplayer be mandatory, like Conclave, if that was so important to it's gameplay.

Because there's "it's easier if it's Co-Op" and then there's "this was designed FOR Co-Op" and if Railjack was made with the latter in mind, why allow Single Player in the first place.

Same reason you can play Interception solo. Its obviosuly designed to be played with 4 players, but you can do it solo.

Same with dragon vaults - designed to be played with 4 players, each having 1 nerf. (OK, well obsolete these days, but still it was designed with that in mind). I'm sure you can think of other gameplay parts that have 4 things in them, ie designed to be played with 4 players.

That doesn't mean you cannot play solo, but some are a lot harder to do solo, and the game has progressed with powercreep to the point where some modes are simply trivialised anyway.

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, rockscl said:

that was the only reason for their map design to have a value, soon as you make it dissapear and become just another room, from what you say it sounds to me like you never felt the thrill of finding a parkour challenge room and trying to make it to the end of the room this time, that S#&$ was amazing

What is your opinion of the Gas City Secret Laboratory parkour challenges?

[_Anise_]

On 2023-09-13 at 4:50 AM, rockscl said:

Am just a grandpa with pink colored glasses or someone agrees with me?

It was awesome doing like 20 minutes of work just to have your railjack explode /sarcasm, railjack was the real defense target! so na I don't agree about jailjack, I feel like it should be this awesome spaceship !! it does not feel like that when it needs babysitting or putting into stealth so it does not die !

I do have one that you didn't mention which Im gonna add ^-^

Warframe was better when enemies knew how to headshot! you couldn't take squish frames anywhere near sorties, double edged nerf they added shield gate and reduced enemy accuracy around the same time which made content at sortie level way too easy

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , CephalonCarnage 说:

Same reason you can play Interception solo. Its obviosuly designed to be played with 4 players, but you can do it solo.

Same with dragon vaults - designed to be played with 4 players, each having 1 nerf. (OK, well obsolete these days, but still it was designed with that in mind). I'm sure you can think of other gameplay parts that have 4 things in them, ie designed to be played with 4 players.

That doesn't mean you cannot play solo, but some are a lot harder to do solo, and the game has progressed with powercreep to the point where some modes are simply trivialised anyway.

There are differences between "designed to be played with 4 players" (i.e. default 4 players) and "allowed to be played with 4 players" (i.e. default one player). Most (most, not all) contents in Warframe are default one player, or, the game play must allow solo first, co-op second.

Playing with your team gives you something extra (eg relics), and sometimes makes your mission more difficult. Your example, interception, the time / tenno required to capture a tower actually increase when you have more than one player. Archon hunt enemy difficulty scales with your team. Something like that.

It should be very obvious that in the entire game, there is no content, not even one, absolutely requires more than one players. That's why dragon vault was updated to allow one player to carry 4 keys. That's why Railjack has crewmates. That's why pvp received zero attention from DE. That's why you can have a one man dojo. That's why the "do something with your friend" challenge in Nightwave was removed. That's why people said Warframe is a solo game because it was designed in such a way so that you can do everything without interacting with anyone.

[CoffeeElemental]

Цитата

Warframe was amazing before coptering/bjump

no

Цитата

and so was Railjack before it was made easy

maybe, but I don't miss the ramsled spam.

[AlexMercer]

Prefer the way it is now the only change im not a fan of is the switch from void dash to void sling.

[CephalonCarnage]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

It should be very obvious that in the entire game, there is no content, not even one, absolutely requires more than one players. That's why dragon vault was updated to allow one player to carry 4 keys. That's why Railjack has crewmates. That's why pvp received zero attention from DE. That's why you can have a one man dojo. That's why the "do something with your friend" challenge in Nightwave was removed. That's why people said Warframe is a solo game because it was designed in such a way so that you can do everything without interacting with anyone.

PvP had a huge amount of attention from DE. They even reworked it at great expense to them.

And you admit WF was designed to be co-op all along. Dragon Vaults were designed with 4 players in mind - hence the 4 keys being unable to be equipped one one player.

That they changed it to be more solo-friendly is a trend that is accelerating. RJ originally did not have crew. You could do things solo, but it was a pain. And it still is. The design, if it were for it to be solo, is truly bad. But as co-op, 4 man team, it was truly great. The design intent is for multiple players. That they have made it easier to play solo is welcome, but to claim it was always solo is just wrong. As you admit yourself when referring to dragon keys.

The nightwave challenge to handshake someone is still there BTW.

[RichardKam]

1小时前 , CephalonCarnage 说:

And you admit WF was designed to be co-op all along. Dragon Vaults were designed with 4 players in mind - hence the 4 keys being unable to be equipped one one player.

That they changed it to be more solo-friendly is a trend that is accelerating. RJ originally did not have crew. You could do things solo, but it was a pain. And it still is. The design, if it were for it to be solo, is truly bad. But as co-op, 4 man team, it was truly great. The design intent is for multiple players. That they have made it easier to play solo is welcome, but to claim it was always solo is just wrong. As you admit yourself when referring to dragon keys.

The nightwave challenge to handshake someone is still there BTW.

Co-op is a part of the game. No doubt about it. But if the focus was really about co-op, then we should see developers giving more incentives on the co-op aspect and at least some contents requiring co-op. But no, it was the other way around, and co-op only contents were actually being removed constantly. 

Anyway, different people have different perspective.

1小时前 , CephalonCarnage 说:

PvP had a huge amount of attention from DE. 

Doubt.

[rockscl]

hace 12 horas, DrBorris dijo:

What is your opinion of the Gas City Secret Laboratory parkour challenges?

Clearly its what they could design under a premise of bjump, but it doesnt raise any curiosity right away, its like you have to feel curious already to begin with, the panels are usually hidden in a place that you would never visit.

[Tsukinoki]

On 2023-09-12 at 10:50 PM, rockscl said:

Am just a grandpa with pink colored glasses or someone agrees with me?

DE burned his brain trying to make everyone happy but in the end they made so much exploration trivial, made everything easy and turned amazingly designed maps into a flat surface.

I think you have some rose colored glasses firmly on.

 

I've played the game since the beginning when we had stamina and zero parkour and butt-sliding was the fast movement option.  Where Excalibur had a "super jump" ability and it actually made sense.
I saw the rise of coptering where a weapon was largely determined if it was good or bad based on whether it could copter or not, and if so how close it was to the Dual Zorens.
I saw the rise of parkour 1.0 where we actually had ways to navigate the maps and do so faster, and the fall of coptering as that was patched out of the game.
I saw the rise of air coptering when some melee changes were released and you could do arial attacks and slams, as that turned out to be a way to launch yourself to pretty much anywhere you wanted to go, as long as you had a good melee weapon for it.
I saw the fall of air coptering as it was replaced by bullet jumping that made it consistent and not require a specific melee setup to maximize.

 

And from seeing all of that, all I can say is Bullet jump is good, and I am very glad it is around.

Sure, you can say "but what about having tough parkour?!?!?" to which I just counter with: Coptering and Air Coptering made "tough parkour" invalid since the very beginning.
There was no thrill to discovering secret rooms, or going "Oh, look at how hard it is to get into this hidden area!" because you could just equip the right weapon and launch yourself into it without doing any parkour at all.

We've had ways to utterly trivialize any movement requirement in the game since the beginning, the exact implementation has changed sure but they have always been there.  In fact the only real changes to these things is making it so that you aren't locked down to a few specific melee weapons to actually achieve it.

 

Parkour in the past wasn't better.  It didn't make the maps more dynamic or require more "skill".

 

 

As to railjack 1.0?  Glad that was changed as well.
Are the missions easier? Sure...but only really in the ways that you can now do RJ solo without having to do the cheese of "Park your RJ in a corner and then just archwing through the mission and avoid any and all interactions with RJ itself!"
Beyond that it simplified and streamlined things that really had no reason to be so convoluted.
I mean the entire DIrac issue?  Where you suddenly had mods that needed new resources to upgrade (for some reason) and therefore became just trash once you were done since you couldn't use it anywhere else?  Or what about the grid sockets that could be upgraded along with the mods?
And a whole slew of other messiness that really shouldn't have been shipped out as it was when it launched.

[CephalonCarnage]

12 hours ago, RichardKam said:

Doubt

Check the patch notes on the wiki for Conclave. It goes on for ever. Then there's the major updates to it in update 32.2, 21.0, the Index Preview and Silver Grove update.

You have to admire DE's work ethic in putting in the time to fix things, tweak things, balance things, rebalance things, unbalance things, update things, add things, retweak things all for a game mode almost nobody plays.

[rockscl]

im dumbfound by ppl sain g that vanilla RJack couldnt be cleared without hidding the Railjack at the spawning point, i played the whole content on the railjack and i was hell of fun

[Tsukinoki]

11 hours ago, rockscl said:

im dumbfound by ppl sain g that vanilla RJack couldnt be cleared without hidding the Railjack at the spawning point, i played the whole content on the railjack and i was hell of fun

If you had a full squad, or at least 3 people? Sure RJ1.0 was fun as hek.

If you were doing it alone and trying to get the higher levels done (veil proxima)?  It was just pure frustration trying to handle everything and keeping your RJ alive as it constantly was in the countdown to exploding.

Could it be done without cheese as a solo player?  Sure, but it just wasn't enjoyable at the higher levels as they were originally designed with large squads in mind.

 

And the thing about Warframe is that nearly everything else (aside from the old Trials) were designed with the idea of small/solo squads being able to clear all of the content as well.
And RJ1.0 simply wasn't.

The expansion to RJ was both to streamline it, as well as to make it more doable for the small/solo squads to actually handle the content without either endless frustrations or resorting to cheesing the missions.
Essentially bringing it inline with the other missions where it is actually doable to play the mission (as in using your RJ as intended) and succeed without struggling every single step of the way because you aren't in a full squad that made it extremely easy.

[Yousho]

I do kinda miss the much slower warframe where we felt more like a spec ops team than gods of death. 

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-09-18 at 3:20 AM, RichardKam said:

There are differences between "designed to be played with 4 players" (i.e. default 4 players) and "allowed to be played with 4 players" (i.e. default one player). Most (most, not all) contents in Warframe are default one player, or, the game play must allow solo first, co-op second.

That isnt the only meaning "designed to be played with 4 players" can mean. Never do they refer to any mandatory group numbers. It is like Valheim, Killing Floor and other co-op games that are designed for X amount of players, but are fully playable solo aswell. RJ is an exclusion to most content in WF since it is balanced around a full group no matter if you play solo or not, SP follows the same pattern. Everything else practically starts out at one player and scales up as more people join, the exception being Interception which requires 4 points held no matter the group size.

So them refering to RJ as being designed to be played with 4 players is very much true.

[SilentMobius]

On 2023-09-13 at 4:50 AM, rockscl said:

Am just a grandpa with pink colored glasses or someone agrees with me?

Nope, as a 10year+ player I don't miss stamina, or old Warframe movement at all, coptering was awful and bulletjump is much, much better.

Empyrean at release was painful to play and the location of drops vs the difficulty of that content ridiculous for a solo player. I got all my gear and intrinsics before the big change by parking my Railjack in an an asteroid as far away as I could and doing the whole mission in archwing because the railjacks were made of tissue paper and the weapons were a joke.

Plenty could be better in Warframe but I've been very happy with the overall changes.

Edited September 22, 2023 by SilentMobius