But WHY does DE release band-aid mods?

TARINunit9 · November 18, 2023

On 2023-11-16 at 7:16 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I switched Careers so I'm not a coder anymore, but I'd imagine that if you have the capacity to implement the change as augment mod then it's a lot easier if you just added that change into the base ability.

The decision to do stuff like this comes from management and design, not coding.

There's any number of cheap and dirty fixes they could do to make Energy Transfer part of Equinox's stock kit right now, in a couple hours. A non-buggy fix, a couple of days

They don't do it because they don't WANT to. They think Equinox is already balanced without it. So if you want more power than "balanced" you pay for it with an augment mod

(Having played Equinox before, the problems with Mend and Maim go a lot deeper than Energy Transfer. I think even calling it a bandaid mod is completely missing the point and asking for the wrong thing)

Raarsi · November 18, 2023

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

If Equinox was never intended to be used with both forms in a mission, then why is his first ability focused on shapeshifting when we can already choose the default form with emissive light?

I never said she was never intended to be used with both forms. I said that was an option; one playstyle players could use, and still do. Another was knowing when and where mid-mission to use which forms and plan Maim & Mend usage accordingly.

As for why the default option choice given the first ability, the forms do have passive personal buffs that can be leveraged right at rank 1, so you get that damage buff or damage reduction depending on whatever the situation calls for, and the emissive part allowed players to choose which form they wanted to start missions off in.

2 hours ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

Also, using only one form per mission would make it a 3 skill warframe instead of 4 like everyone else since you would never use the first skill.

Surprisingly, it's perfectly okay for a frame not to have an ability kit where a player looks at an ability and know that they have the helminth for a reason. It's yet another playstyle option that players can and do work with as they have and do with a LOT of frames.

A good number of frames are 3-ability frames, which again, is perfectly okay since it could always be worse. I mean, Inaros is a 0-ability warframe because all of his abilities are varying levels of garbage.

Hypernaut1 · November 18, 2023

I've used Equinox fine before the augment. I simply dispelled her 4 before switching. For me, her playstyle was about switching to be more offensive of defensive when needed. The augment is just a convenience and it's actually not even all that useful in some builds.

quxier · November 18, 2023

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-17 at 9:06 PM, quxier said:

Xaku:
- Vampiric grasp - I want to attack armor striped enemies by GAze or debuffed via Vast untime
Protea:
- Temporal erosion - When I use 4th I want to use 1 and 2, so no change
Sevagoth:
- Shadow haze - just more damage
Inaros:
- Desication Curse - I still want to do finishers

Those are not bandaids since they dont patch over something missing or broken in the skills, they simply improve them. They are just stronger/weaker augments.

imho, Sevagoth is missing power (both SEv's 1&2 do basically nothing without huge strength). Augment make it manageable.

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is the reasoning in having some skills that do the same as others while not being possible to recast during their active state? Why can I recast Nourish, Eclipse or Vex but not Roar?

I think it's just random. Why Styanax has been nerfed while not fixed? Why Caliban has weak & power hungry 1st and cannot cast other abilities (except 2nd)? Why you can keep Xaku's 2nd for veeeeery long time? Why Dagath has to use 2 abilities to do "different thing"? Why Grendel/Pulverize don't drain energy while Caliban's 1st still drain it (you could say that they have just not changed Calibans but that's just weak excuse)?

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

yes, that is what a bandaid is. Augment of something does not imply it changes it, it just strengthens or increases i

I've checked few dictionaries (Cambridge, Merriam-Webster). In their definition it mostly sounds like "to make bigger" or "to increase". It still allow "changes", however it's not implied (as you noted). For example "augmented reality" doesn't just "increase" reality. It changes reality by "adding" something to it.

However, in my opinion, such not well defined term in making Augment mods shouldn't be used. Why we need specialized mod that can only affect part of kit if we can use general purpose mods (and other sources). Like, why use augment that increase its Strength via 30% if you could just use Intensify that does the same but affects whole kit. Devs just overly complicate moding system doing such augments, imho.

Well, that's my little rant. What's important is about different opinion what augments supposed to do. I'll keep in mind your version. Thanks for explanation.

(PSN)GEN-Son_17 · November 19, 2023

22 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

when said augments add tremendous value to an otherwise mediocre ability or passive (ice wave impedence, biting frost, etc) or "fixes" a flaw in an ability or just straight up buffs it (cathode current, ulfrun's endurance, rubble heap), instead of changing the ability in a way that changes its intended function or gives an already good ability an alternative use (lasting covenant, mesmer shield, surging blades), then it is a bandaid

Augment means increase or enhance, not change. This is why it's not a band-aid. You have the examples reversed. Alter is to change, which is what Helminth does.

Again, these are not Band-Aids just because we just assume the original ability should have the augment. Ice Wave, for example, was a devastating ability in the pre Steel Path days and impedance was well known as a tile lockdown for defense missions and it has a cheaper casting cost than avalanche...but impedance was not necessary for non endurance missions because the wave usually wrecked or nearly wrecked the room. Biting Frost is absolutely not necessary for Frost because he is monstrously powerful without it. Just running the Umbra mods pushes him to armor strip, so the crit bonuses from the augment was not a necessity. Yes, I want more from Frost's passive, but not to the level of Biting Frost.

Lastly, why would DE ruin added playtime (finding, leveling, creating the new build, testing the new build, learning and optimizing)?

Skoomaseller · November 19, 2023

On 2023-11-19 at 1:41 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Augment means increase or enhance, not change. This is why it's not a band-aid. You have the examples reversed. Alter is to change, which is what Helminth does.

Again, these are not Band-Aids just because we just assume the original ability should have the augment. Ice Wave, for example, was a devastating ability in the pre Steel Path days and impedance was well known as a tile lockdown for defense missions and it has a cheaper casting cost than avalanche...but impedance was not necessary for non endurance missions because the wave usually wrecked or nearly wrecked the room. Biting Frost is absolutely not necessary for Frost because he is monstrously powerful without it. Just running the Umbra mods pushes him to armor strip, so the crit bonuses from the augment was not a necessity. Yes, I want more from Frost's passive, but not to the level of Biting Frost.

Lastly, why would DE ruin added playtime (finding, leveling, creating the new build, testing the new build, learning and optimizing)?

augment also means to change something by adding something else to it.

what a terrible take. standard from you I guess. definition might not be 100% accurate, but many augments are bandaids regardless. saying "oh but it can't be a bandaid, that's not what the word means!!!" is just stupid.

assume? frost passive is dogS#&$, no two ways about it. ice wave is almost mediocre, ice wave impedence fixes that. but this post isn't just about frost, in case you still don't understand.

you might not feel it is necessary, nor mandatory to run. and you'd be correct. my point however, was never about the mods being mandatory.

my point was about the mods themselves being so strong, or the abilities themselves being so mediocre, or the augments being so great a "fix" for a "flaw" in an ability, that it'd be unwise not to run the augments for them. that, is a bandaid. i.e. "why even use x ability without its augment?"

without lasting covenant, covenant is still a great ability.

without mesmer shield, mesmer skin is still a great ability.

without jet stream, turbulence is still a great ability.

without surging blades, aquablades is still a great ability.

without icy avalanche, avalanche is still a great ability.

in contrast:

without ice wave impedence, ice wave is mediocre.

without cathode current, gyre doesn't feel that great to play.

without ulfrun's endurance, ulfrun's descent feels pretty bad to use.

without biting frost, you can consider frost to be a frame without a passive.

without seeking shuriken, shuriken is pointless, since blade storm does (almost) the same thing, yet is far stronger, has more synergy with ash's whole kit, and is cheaper to cast.

no matter how you feel about these abilities and augments, you cannot deny that some augments grant so much value to an otherwise mediocre ability. you also cannot deny that some abilities are simply just mediocre.

hence, bandaids.

Edit: I cannot make it any clearer. If you still don't understand, then i can only assume you are trolling.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Skoomaseller

(PSN)GEN-Son_17 · November 19, 2023

On 2023-11-17 at 10:09 PM, Hexerin said:

It's honestly becoming kind of impressive how you are just a factory production line of the most horridly bad takes imaginable.

Doesn't matter. I'm not the one attempting to redefine the intent of the devs. I'm stating exactly what they are. It costs a mod slot for the enhanced ability, thus taking away from an ideal mod. The more ability enhancements, the less slots for other mods. Nothing horrible nor hard about that.

SneakyErvin · November 19, 2023

14 hours ago, quxier said:

imho, Sevagoth is missing power (both SEv's 1&2 do basically nothing without huge strength). Augment make it manageable.

Those two skills when combined kill pretty well without strength investments and worked well before the augment was available, which was a long freakin time.

14 hours ago, quxier said:

I think it's just random. Why Styanax has been nerfed while not fixed? Why Caliban has weak & power hungry 1st and cannot cast other abilities (except 2nd)? Why you can keep Xaku's 2nd for veeeeery long time? Why Dagath has to use 2 abilities to do "different thing"? Why Grendel/Pulverize don't drain energy while Caliban's 1st still drain it (you could say that they have just not changed Calibans but that's just weak excuse)?

What needs fixing with Styanax? He's a very powerful frame. Also I dont think you really get what I'm talking about, since this doesnt really have anything to do with varying power between frames, this is about nearly identical skills following different rules and limitations when there is no reason. What you talk about are different kits with different upkeep costs tied to their mechanics. No idea why you even brought that up here. You are also back at comparing Xaku and Dagath, and again call out Dagath while acting as Xaku can use is 2 "veeeeery long" while completely disregarding that this also requires constant upkeep of another second skill. Which is what you complain about regarding Dagath for some reason. Not to mention that Xaku's 2 deals horribly with enemies without strip unless all you play is regular star chart. Not to mention it needs to get used several times over in practically all non-endless missions to do just about anything. What is with the odd Dagath hate and bias towards Xaku?

14 hours ago, quxier said:

I've checked few dictionaries (Cambridge, Merriam-Webster). In their definition it mostly sounds like "to make bigger" or "to increase". It still allow "changes", however it's not implied (as you noted). For example "augmented reality" doesn't just "increase" reality. It changes reality by "adding" something to it.

However, in my opinion, such not well defined term in making Augment mods shouldn't be used. Why we need specialized mod that can only affect part of kit if we can use general purpose mods (and other sources). Like, why use augment that increase its Strength via 30% if you could just use Intensify that does the same but affects whole kit. Devs just overly complicate moding system doing such augments, imho.

Well, that's my little rant. What's important is about different opinion what augments supposed to do. I'll keep in mind your version. Thanks for explanation.

Nope. Augmented reality doesnt change reality, it only strengthens the way we observe it, but reality itself doesnt change. Augmented reality can for instance add monsters, remove a wall or make a staircase disappear, or just improve how we observe something. The monsters are still not reality, the wall is still there and if you rely on the augmented reality you will very likely fall down the stairs and break parts of your body and in a worst case scenario die. And the wall you might have observed as green, new and fresh in the augmented reality still looks like S#&$e in reality.

But they are named augments by DE, so unless DE suddenly goes out there and says "this is what WE mean with augment" then we should assume it is augment in the defined sense they refer to i.e something that strengthens, which is exactly what they do. What you are actually talking about in games already has a name, it is called a "morph" or "mutator". Example, you have a scythe as a necromancer, it provides you with a melee attack move, you then change a perk or talent skill for it and it is now a ranged attack, you just morphed the skill, you didnt augment it since you changed the behavior but didnt positively make it stronger. And augment on the other hand would be adding a damage type, increasing the damage in general, the range of it, add a life steal, improved attack speed or more uses before it goes on CD (if it has a CD).

We also dont have augments that just improve the strength of a skill like any other mod, we have augments that add strength to the skill while also providing something else that a mod of another kind wont do. Like Plunder for Hydroid, which adds the equal of 50% strength to the skill and also gives it the ability to heal. Or Mesmer Skin augment for Rev, which adds 50% strength to the skill and also allows him to support groups. Both examples effectively making the skills stronger.

If we go by your criteria for what an actual augment is (something that changes what you do) we barely have any. We really only have uhm 2, Nyx and Atlas in that case since they change how you play when the skills are used with their augments. Yareli as you mentioned wouldnt count, since it is still the same, you just have a discharge you can use just as with Nezha, but it doesnt actually change how it is used since you still need to deal damage with it. And if you didnt do that previously I'm not sure why you activated Aquablades at all, since that is all it does. Grendels augment doesnt count either, since it also just strengthens the skill by adding an additional movement option on it. The gameplay is still effectively the same. Xaku follows the same logic, since your skills simply get stronger, you are promoted to use all 3 toggle parts of the skill. But the intent of using all 3 was there from the start since they all do something different, the augment doesnt add that change. So your idea of "augment" applies to nearly none of the augment mods out there.

So even if we include those mods you mentioned, we dont even have 5% of the augments being "augments" according to you. With common logic that would mean you are very likely wrong in your opinion of what is classed as augments.

(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn · November 19, 2023

20 hours ago, Raarsi said:

I mean, Inaros is a 0-ability warframe because all of his abilities are varying levels of garbage.

Sentient Wrath is not garbage! It's great for Steel Path Hijack Inaros. 😁

MagPrime · November 19, 2023

On 2023-11-16 at 10:16 PM, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

I switched Careers so I'm not a coder anymore, but I'd imagine that if you have the capacity to implement the change as augment mod then it's a lot easier if you just added that change into the base ability.

DE are infamously known to release these mods instead of fixing the base abilities...it's obvious the ability needs it, and it's obvious that these aren't really "augmenting" the ability more so than fixing something it lacks.

so why don't they? Energy transfer is one of the strongest examples...it screams "this is bandaid"
and they aren't shy about it either...there have been countless instances where they DID change the augment and added the effect to the base ability...like corroding barrage

What you're calling bandaid mods, I call a variety of player personalization.

Do I think most of Mag's augments should be inherent? Sure. I would love to have all of that and then be able to further augment but not all of those things fit other people's playstyles.

Stafelund · November 19, 2023

10 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Doesn't matter. I'm not the one attempting to redefine the intent of the devs. I'm stating exactly what they are. It costs a mod slot for the enhanced ability, thus taking away from an ideal mod. The more ability enhancements, the less slots for other mods. Nothing horrible nor hard about that.

If that's the intent, that doesn't seem good, considering the older frames are powercrept and unlike weapons since there's so many alternatives and possible ways for them to be viable, frames getting the powercreep doesn't look good overall.

It looks off with Biting Frost considering you have Styanax whose passive relates to shields and crits. The two have similarities (overguard, armor strip) so Frost looks he was left in the dust, stat-wise too because compare his energy reserves with Styanax and how Styanax only needs the second ability.

Regardless, thanks to Frost's meh passive and the things mentioned coming into mind, that augment certainly looks like a bandaid mod, regardless of the devs' intent.

quxier · November 19, 2023

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

20 hours ago, Raarsi said:

I mean, Inaros is a 0-ability warframe because all of his abilities are varying levels of garbage.

Sentient Wrath is not garbage! It's great for Steel Path Hijack Inaros. 😁

Sentient wraith does something useful?! I thought it was joke by DE: "let us spread enemies, they will laugh at our joke".

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

imho, Sevagoth is missing power (both SEv's 1&2 do basically nothing without huge strength). Augment make it manageable.

Those two skills when combined kill pretty well without strength investments and worked well before the augment was available, which was a long freakin time.

I'm not sure what you have done because without huge strength, grouping etc it was just "refill the Dethwell" kind of thing.

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

15 hours ago, quxier said:

I think it's just random. Why Styanax has been nerfed while not fixed? Why Caliban has weak & power hungry 1st and cannot cast other abilities (except 2nd)? Why you can keep Xaku's 2nd for veeeeery long time? Why Dagath has to use 2 abilities to do "different thing"? Why Grendel/Pulverize don't drain energy while Caliban's 1st still drain it (you could say that they have just not changed Calibans but that's just weak excuse)?

What needs fixing with Styanax? He's a very powerful frame

Well, not power.

Look at Styanax before nerf:

Quote

You could go to 4th, activate any (even Helminth afair) abilities. There were jump on 1st or 2nd ability. When you are aiming it goes into aimglide which is bad. You could recast 4th if you wanted more "aerial combat".

Look at Styanax now:

Quote

4th is basically some AoE slash damage and nothing more (without augment). Jumps on 1st or 2nd still persist.

You could do everything as before... but more clunky. Why bother with restrictive 4th, where you could just use any helminthed abilities. There is even aquablades that are better on the long run (45 second duration vs 2.5s, 750-2250 damage vs 36k (12 javelins * 3k each), higher energy (75 vs 100), being able to do anything (Aquablades) vs only aiming (Final stand)).

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

He's a very powerful frame. Also I dont think you really get what I'm talking about, since this doesnt really have anything to do with varying power between frames, this is about nearly identical skills following different rules and limitations when there is no reason. What you talk about are different kits with different upkeep costs tied to their mechanics

They may be different but similar in some aspects. However you can still look at general picture.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

What is with the odd Dagath hate and bias towards Xaku?

Because Dagath is like Sevagoth: similar abilities to each other, some effects not showing etc.

And Xaku is or was my favorite frame. I still play them a lot. I've even bought deluxe skin for them (with just tradeable plat, but still) - it's my only deluxe skin. So I may be biased towards Xaku. Still... I can see some flaws in their design.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

17 hours ago, quxier said:

I've checked few dictionaries (Cambridge, Merriam-Webster). In their definition it mostly sounds like "to make bigger" or "to increase". It still allow "changes", however it's not implied (as you noted). For example "augmented reality" doesn't just "increase" reality. It changes reality by "adding" something to it.

However, in my opinion, such not well defined term in making Augment mods shouldn't be used. Why we need specialized mod that can only affect part of kit if we can use general purpose mods (and other sources). Like, why use augment that increase its Strength via 30% if you could just use Intensify that does the same but affects whole kit. Devs just overly complicate moding system doing such augments, imho.

Well, that's my little rant. What's important is about different opinion what augments supposed to do. I'll keep in mind your version. Thanks for explanation.

Nope. Augmented reality doesnt change reality, it only strengthens the way we observe it, but reality itself doesnt change. Augmented reality can for instance add monsters, remove a wall or make a staircase disappear, or just improve how we observe something. The monsters are still not reality, the wall is still there and if you rely on the augmented reality you will very likely fall down the stairs and break parts of your body and in a worst case scenario die. And the wall you might have observed as green, new and fresh in the augmented reality still looks like S#&$e in reality.

The way we observe things plays big role how we experience things. Let's say you are color blind and you see only shades of grey (white & black too, of course). Augmented reality (in theory) can make you see color. Or even better/worse - makes you see different colors. So you have 2 houses that the color blind person (mentioned above) sees as the same. Augmented reality makes person see different colors of those houses. AR doesn't simply increase colors (e.g. make it more vivid). World itself wouldn't change. AR just changes how we perceive things, aka OUR reality.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But they are named augments by DE, so unless DE suddenly goes out there and says "this is what WE mean with augment" then we should assume it is augment in the defined sense they refer to i.e something that strengthens, which is exactly what they do

IMHO we shouldn't assume such stuff. We are from different countries and it will cause lot of confusions. What's obvious for you may not be obvious for me. And vice versa. What's important that we use same terms.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

What you are actually talking about in games already has a name, it is called a "morph" or "mutator". Example, you have a scythe as a necromancer, it provides you with a melee attack move, you then change a perk or talent skill for it and it is now a ranged attack, you just morphed the skill, you didnt augment it since you changed the behavior but didnt positively make it stronger. And augment on the other hand would be adding a damage type, increasing the damage in general, the range of it, add a life steal, improved attack speed or more uses before it goes on CD (if it has a CD).

Adding damage type or life steal can change how we play as well. Sure changing from melee to gun (like your example of scythe) is more drastic but those 2 can still affect gameplay (more subtle and it depends on game).

So... those 2 terms (mutator/morph and augment) can be each other?

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

We also dont have augments that just improve the strength of a skill like any other mod, we have augments that add strength to the skill while also providing something else that a mod of another kind wont do. Like Plunder for Hydroid, which adds the equal of 50% strength to the skill and also gives it the ability to heal. Or Mesmer Skin augment for Rev, which adds 50% strength to the skill and also allows him to support groups. Both examples effectively making the skills stronger.

Sure.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

f we go by your criteria for what an actual augment is (something that changes what you do) we barely have any. We really only have uhm 2, Nyx and Atlas in that case since they change how you play when the skills are used with their augments. Yareli as you mentioned wouldnt count, since it is still the same, you just have a discharge you can use just as with Nezha, but it doesnt actually change how it is used since you still need to deal damage with it.

But it changes HOW I deal damage. With e.g. Roar, Viral (e.g. even by third part) I can just roll/run towards enemies and they die after some time. On other hand Yareli's augment makes me shoot enemies.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Grendels augment doesnt count either, since it also just strengthens the skill by adding an additional movement option on it.

Although weak, it still changes how I can play. Without augment I have to use terrain, jumping and wall dashing to achieve certain positions. On other hand Cataput is basically bullet jump - aim and shoot (yourself).

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

. Xaku follows the same logic, since your skills simply get stronger, you are promoted to use all 3 toggle parts of the skill. But the intent of using all 3 was there from the start since they all do something different, the augment doesnt add that change.

Intent of those 3 skills are to be used in certain situations not necessary all of 3. So you are defending certain position and you put Gaze. You want "easy headshot" so you Deny enemies. You don't put Gaze in exterminate because it's not very efficient.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So your idea of "augment" applies to nearly none of the augment mods out there.

Let me check augment list:

Quote

Buffs
- Ember Fireball frenzy - adds heat damage to attacks to allies
- Frost Freeze Force - same
- Oberon Smite Infusion
- Volt Shock Trooper
- Saryn Venom Dose

Recasting gives certain effects:
- Rhino Piercing roar - knockdown & 10x puncture status
- Nezha - Pyroclastic flow - recasting make fire trail, so instead of running you aim where you want to make fire trail
- Chroma Guided effigy - lets you control where the Dragon is and what is aiming FROM cast & forget ability
- Octavia Conductor - similar to above

Other effects:
- Nekros Soul survivor lets you revive allies
- Ivara - Infiltrate lets you just go through lasers instead of hacking consoles
- Gauss Mach crush - because of how it's coded (bug, maybe they changed it) vortex is created only when you hold ability during touching walls, and probably needs some distance (e.g. you cannot do it while touching wall)

With Nyx & Atlas that's 14 from 158. That's nearly 10%. I've missed some and I've not touched any that "turn off passive".

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

With common logic that would mean you are very likely wrong in your opinion of what is classed as augments.

Maybe from DE logic but some players (e.g. maybe OP) may think differently.

(PSN)Hopper_Orouk · November 19, 2023

2 hours ago, MagPrime said:

What you're calling bandaid mods, I call a variety of player personalization.

Do I think most of Mag's augments should be inherent? Sure. I would love to have all of that and then be able to further augment but not all of those things fit other people's playstyles.

but most if not all mag augments are normal augments tho...let's take a look at mag's four and equinox 4 and their augments.

mag's 4 a radial wave of damage and CC, Typical right? it's augment, well, augments it to also be able to strip armor and CC even more. sacrificing a slot for it is justifiable.

but Equinox 4, a support ability on one side and a dps one on the other, you might think it was designed to be able to switch through it without loosing built up damage/heal? to be convenient for an Equinox that has to switch always and isn't stuck in one form? no...so DE released this mod just to fix something people complained about.

this actually happens all the time, even now, people complained about Voruna's Ulnfrun descent not counting stacks on bleed procs, making it weak on high level enemies, DE released an augment to fix just that.

Gyre had an early bug that used to make her a great dps frame, DE nerfed it, people complained...DE rereleased it albeit somewhat weaker effect as an augment....

it never stops

Edited November 19, 2023 by (PSN)Hopper_Orouk

Skoomaseller · November 19, 2023

4 hours ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

Sentient Wrath is not garbage! It's great for Steel Path Hijack Inaros. 😁

explain this dark technology to me

(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan · November 20, 2023

23 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

what a terrible take. standard from you I guess. definition might not be 100% accurate, but many augments are bandaids regardless. saying "oh but it can't be a bandaid, that's not what the word means!!!" is just retarded.

While I 100% agree with you on all points, and have been screaming these points from the rooftops for years now, please don't use that word like that. It's been a derogatory term toward people with conditions they can't help for generations, and it can be very offensive toward those who know, love and take care of people with those conditions, who are continually looked down on by others. I'm not trying to start an argument, or tell you what to do. I'm just asking you to please reconsider your words.

I have the guy you were responding to blocked, if that tells you anything about how I feel about them. There's plenty of other words you could use to describe them and their ideas without that one.

Hexerin · November 20, 2023

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

While I 100% agree with you on all points, and have been screaming these points from the rooftops for years now, please don't use that word like that. It's been a derogatory term toward people with conditions they can't help for generations, and it can be very offensive toward those who know, love and take care of people with those conditions, who are continually looked down on by others. I'm not trying to start an argument, or tell you what to do. I'm just asking you to please reconsider your words.

I have the guy you were responding to blocked, if that tells you anything about how I feel about them. There's plenty of other words you could use to describe them and their ideas without that one.

Personally, I've found that "asinine" is a great replacement (been using it for over a decade now). Still sounds saucy and gives emphasis, while conveying the same meaning. It also has the bonus of being applicable to other things as well, not just specifically "that's stupid".

Skoomaseller · November 20, 2023

3 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

While I 100% agree with you on all points, and have been screaming these points from the rooftops for years now, please don't use that word like that. It's been a derogatory term toward people with conditions they can't help for generations, and it can be very offensive toward those who know, love and take care of people with those conditions, who are continually looked down on by others. I'm not trying to start an argument, or tell you what to do. I'm just asking you to please reconsider your words.

I have the guy you were responding to blocked, if that tells you anything about how I feel about them. There's plenty of other words you could use to describe them and their ideas without that one.

fair enough. edited.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Skoomaseller

SneakyErvin · November 20, 2023

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Well, not power.

Look at Styanax before nerf:

Quote

You could go to 4th, activate any (even Helminth afair) abilities. There were jump on 1st or 2nd ability. When you are aiming it goes into aimglide which is bad. You could recast 4th if you wanted more "aerial combat".

Look at Styanax now:

Quote

4th is basically some AoE slash damage and nothing more (without augment). Jumps on 1st or 2nd still persist.

You could do everything as before... but more clunky. Why bother with restrictive 4th, where you could just use any helminthed abilities. There is even aquablades that are better on the long run (45 second duration vs 2.5s, 750-2250 damage vs 36k (12 javelins * 3k each), higher energy (75 vs 100), being able to do anything (Aquablades) vs only aiming (Final stand)).

There was no nerf, there was a fix. His 4th didnt only allow for casting during his 4th, it also removed cast times. With no animations etc. for the skills, so was quite the obvious bug that was bound to be fixed.

And lol no, Aquablades doesnt come close to Javelins. You cant just look at numbers, numbers that you also scew severely or simply lack understanding of the skill mechanics. Javelins launch 30 javelins as baseline with a RoF of 12 per second for 2.5 seconds. 1500 of the damage is also hitting everything within 6m from initial impact and forces slash procs on anyhting hit. Which also means you have 3 stats that all improve the damage output of the skill per cast, with strength for damage, duration for number of javleins/explosions and range for explosion range. At baseline an enemy can get hit for as much as 45000 along with 30 slash stacks and an additional 1500 per direct javelin hit aswell.

Aquablades deal horrible damage at baseline and even with massive strength investments. I've tried it on my Lavos and even with his high strength build it can barely kill infested. At the same time my Styanax annihilates anything with his Last Stand, and he has balanced stats. Not to mention that Aquabldes need you to be in perfect range for them to hit, so they are poorly suited for both melee and ranged, since it isnt very often you stand at optimal range for the blades to deal damage, since you are either too close (melee) or too far (ranged) away while you attack with your weapons. Aquablades is probably one of the worst skills in the game. While Javelins is one of the strongest.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Because Dagath is like Sevagoth: similar abilities to each other, some effects not showing etc.

And Xaku is or was my favorite frame. I still play them a lot. I've even bought deluxe skin for them (with just tradeable plat, but still) - it's my only deluxe skin. So I may be biased towards Xaku. Still... I can see some flaws in their design.

Uhm what are you smoking? What part of Dagath and Sevagoth are similar? What parts of Dagath's skills arent showing?

20 hours ago, quxier said:

The way we observe things plays big role how we experience things. Let's say you are color blind and you see only shades of grey (white & black too, of course). Augmented reality (in theory) can make you see color. Or even better/worse - makes you see different colors. So you have 2 houses that the color blind person (mentioned above) sees as the same. Augmented reality makes person see different colors of those houses. AR doesn't simply increase colors (e.g. make it more vivid). World itself wouldn't change. AR just changes how we perceive things, aka OUR reality.

That doesnt change what augmented reality does, since reality is still what it is. Also a color blind person will not suddenly be able to see a color that they otherwise cannot, since they simply cannot see that color and instead see another. Otherwise we wouldnt have color blind issues in games etc. since the game itself could do what you describe an augmented reality can do, which neither cant. Hence why things like color blind mode etc. exsist, so a color blind person gets access to other colors inplace of colors they cannot see. Say an alert animation has red, which a person cannot see, instead to them it blends with other colors. So the devs add a color blind option where the color blind instead see flashing purple or something for those alert animations, which will stand out and be distinctive for the rest of the game. An augmented reality cannot do anything else than that.

And if it could do that, it wouldnt change reality, it would just help the color blind see the actual reality as it is supposed to be. The color they previously could not see would still be the same color, the difference is that the color blind could see it aswell. Red would for instance still be red.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

IMHO we shouldn't assume such stuff. We are from different countries and it will cause lot of confusions. What's obvious for you may not be obvious for me. And vice versa. What's important that we use same terms.

So what does augment translate to in your language? For me augment translates directly to förstärka, which means strengthen, augment, improve, amplify, fortify, increase. As opposed to förändra which means alter, change, transform and so on. So is your language, whatever it is so different from swedish and english? Even german has the same distinct differences, where augment translates to a word describing strengthen, increase and improve, as opposed to the words related to change, alteration, transformation and so on.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Adding damage type or life steal can change how we play as well. Sure changing from melee to gun (like your example of scythe) is more drastic but those 2 can still affect gameplay (more subtle and it depends on game).

So... those 2 terms (mutator/morph and augment) can be each other?

Nope it wont, since you'll still shoot, melee or kill with abilities.

No lol they cant.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

But it changes HOW I deal damage. With e.g. Roar, Viral (e.g. even by third part) I can just roll/run towards enemies and they die after some time. On other hand Yareli's augment makes me shoot enemies.

Why the hell would the augment make you shoot enemies? Aquablades must hit enemies to build up the damage of the augment. Shooting enemies would result in you not getting any benefit fromt he augment at all.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Although weak, it still changes how I can play. Without augment I have to use terrain, jumping and wall dashing to achieve certain positions. On other hand Cataput is basically bullet jump - aim and shoot (yourself).

You are still using the ball to deal damage. The ball itself is what changes Grendel's gameplay, not the augment, which just improves the gameplay and makes it slightly better.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Intent of those 3 skills are to be used in certain situations not necessary all of 3. So you are defending certain position and you put Gaze. You want "easy headshot" so you Deny enemies. You don't put Gaze in exterminate because it's not very efficient.

And the augment doesnt change that.

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Let me check augment list:

Quote

Buffs
- Ember Fireball frenzy - adds heat damage to attacks to allies
- Frost Freeze Force - same
- Oberon Smite Infusion
- Volt Shock Trooper
- Saryn Venom Dose

Recasting gives certain effects:
- Rhino Piercing roar - knockdown & 10x puncture status
- Nezha - Pyroclastic flow - recasting make fire trail, so instead of running you aim where you want to make fire trail
- Chroma Guided effigy - lets you control where the Dragon is and what is aiming FROM cast & forget ability
- Octavia Conductor - similar to above

Other effects:
- Nekros Soul survivor lets you revive allies
- Ivara - Infiltrate lets you just go through lasers instead of hacking consoles
- Gauss Mach crush - because of how it's coded (bug, maybe they changed it) vortex is created only when you hold ability during touching walls, and probably needs some distance (e.g. you cannot do it while touching wall)

With Nyx & Atlas that's 14 from 158. That's nearly 10%. I've missed some and I've not touched any that "turn off passive".

It's still the same skill with an added function that strengthens the skill. The baseline has not gone anywhere. So falls inline with the actual meaning of augmented.

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe from DE logic but some players (e.g. maybe OP) may think differently.

But OP is talking about something else. He's talking about bandaids, which doesnt interfear with if a skill is an augment or not. Since all bandaids added to a skill are effectively augments since they strengthen the skill. He just questions if they should really take up a slot or just be part of the skill naturally. You are talking about something completely different, a need for change in order to be called an augment, even though it has nothing to do with the meaning of the word. Unless you live in a place maybe with a very unique language. I'm still eager to hear of that magical place.

quxier · November 20, 2023

24 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

21 hours ago, quxier said:

Well, not power.

Look at Styanax before nerf:

Quote

You could go to 4th, activate any (even Helminth afair) abilities. There were jump on 1st or 2nd ability. When you are aiming it goes into aimglide which is bad. You could recast 4th if you wanted more "aerial combat".

Look at Styanax now:

Quote

4th is basically some AoE slash damage and nothing more (without augment). Jumps on 1st or 2nd still persist.

You could do everything as before... but more clunky. Why bother with restrictive 4th, where you could just use any helminthed abilities. There is even aquablades that are better on the long run (45 second duration vs 2.5s, 750-2250 damage vs 36k (12 javelins * 3k each), higher energy (75 vs 100), being able to do anything (Aquablades) vs only aiming (Final stand)).

There was no nerf, there was a fix. His 4th didnt only allow for casting during his 4th, it also removed cast times. With no animations etc. for the skills, so was quite the obvious bug that was bound to be fixed.

I've not been aware of "no animations or no cast time" thing. However why not simply fix that issue instead of just banning recasting in the air? Sure, it's easier but it's too much imho.

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And lol no, Aquablades doesnt come close to Javelins. You cant just look at numbers, numbers that you also scew severely or simply lack understanding of the skill mechanics. Javelins launch 30 javelins as baseline with a RoF of 12 per second for 2.5 seconds. 1500 of the damage is also hitting everything within 6m from initial impact and forces slash procs on anyhting hit. Which also means you have 3 stats that all improve the damage output of the skill per cast, with strength for damage, duration for number of javleins/explosions and range for explosion range. At baseline an enemy can get hit for as much as 45000 along with 30 slash stacks and an additional 1500 per direct javelin hit aswell.

Where do you get 45k damage? As you said per second Styanax shoots 12 Javelins, each doing 1.5k damage Slash + 1.5k Blast damage. Let's assume that every javelin hits the target. 12 javelins X 1.5 damage is 18k Slash damage (plus its slash proc) and 18k blast damage. So PER SECOND you get 18k Slash damage, 12 slash stacks and 18 blast damage. At most it's 36k damage, not counting Slash proc.

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Aquablades deal horrible damage at baseline and even with massive strength investments. I've tried it on my Lavos and even with his high strength build it can barely kill infested. At the same time my Styanax annihilates anything with his Last Stand, and he has balanced stats.

And I've been just rolling in Kuva fortress using Kuva nukor for viral/heat proc. It's not that Aquablades deals horrible damage. It's status immunities and damage reduction that makes it worse than Final stand.

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not to mention that Aquabldes need you to be in perfect range for them to hit, so they are poorly suited for both melee and ranged, since it isnt very often you stand at optimal range for the blades to deal damage, since you are either too close (melee) or too far (ranged) away while you attack with your weapons. Aquablades is probably one of the worst skills in the game. While Javelins is one of the strongest.

I guess you don't know Aquablades' mechanic. You don't have to stand near enemy to deal damage. Just roll, bullet jump etc. You can get 1-3 proc of Slash simply moving around enemies.

46 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Because Dagath is like Sevagoth: similar abilities to each other, some effects not showing etc.

And Xaku is or was my favorite frame. I still play them a lot. I've even bought deluxe skin for them (with just tradeable plat, but still) - it's my only deluxe skin. So I may be biased towards Xaku. Still... I can see some flaws in their design.

Uhm what are you smoking? What part of Dagath and Sevagoth are similar? What parts of Dagath's skills arent showing?

1st slowness - either you do too much damage so enemies dies OR you have too low strength so you won't see "too much" slowness.

2nd damage boost is kind of not great without a lot of strength.

4th with 2nd - sometimes you won't see if it's armor striped enemies.

And what is similar? 2 & 3 doing similar damage boost. 1&4 doing some damage.

51 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

The way we observe things plays big role how we experience things. Let's say you are color blind and you see only shades of grey (white & black too, of course). Augmented reality (in theory) can make you see color. Or even better/worse - makes you see different colors. So you have 2 houses that the color blind person (mentioned above) sees as the same. Augmented reality makes person see different colors of those houses. AR doesn't simply increase colors (e.g. make it more vivid). World itself wouldn't change. AR just changes how we perceive things, aka OUR reality.

That doesnt change what augmented reality does, since reality is still what it is.

Ugh, it's about our perception not what elements are in the world (e.g. house, stairs etc).

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also a color blind person will not suddenly be able to see a color that they otherwise cannot, since they simply cannot see that color and instead see another. Otherwise we wouldnt have color blind issues in games etc. since the game itself could do what you describe an augmented reality can do, which neither cant.

Augmented reality changes how we perceive something (e.g. changing its color). I guess we can agree on that part. However AR can do it via different ways. Most common are just headphones & some screen near your eyes. There were studies about stimulating brain to get certain effects. I'm not sure what's the current state of that.

58 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

IMHO we shouldn't assume such stuff. We are from different countries and it will cause lot of confusions. What's obvious for you may not be obvious for me. And vice versa. What's important that we use same terms.

So what does augment translate to in your language? For me augment translates directly to förstärka, which means strengthen, augment, improve, amplify, fortify, increase. As opposed to förändra which means alter, change, transform and so on. So is your language, whatever it is so different from swedish and english? Even german has the same distinct differences, where augment translates to a word describing strengthen, increase and improve, as opposed to the words related to change, alteration, transformation and so on.

You can see word "improve". It's not just "numerical improve" as in "I improve my body so I can lift more kg". It can be use with non countable thing:

Quote

Google

1

make or become better.

we’ve used technology to improve relations with customers

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Adding damage type or life steal can change how we play as well. Sure changing from melee to gun (like your example of scythe) is more drastic but those 2 can still affect gameplay (more subtle and it depends on game).

So... those 2 terms (mutator/morph and augment) can be each other?

Nope it wont, since you'll still shoot, melee or kill with abilities.

*sigh* so shooting using:

- pistol and having to click every time

- machine gun that you can just hold LMB to continue shooting

- Granade/Bazook that have damage around impact so you cannot shoot in close range

are all the same?! Yeah... if that's what you think then I have nothing to add.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

But it changes HOW I deal damage. With e.g. Roar, Viral (e.g. even by third part) I can just roll/run towards enemies and they die after some time. On other hand Yareli's augment makes me shoot enemies.

Why the hell would the augment make you shoot enemies? Aquablades must hit enemies to build up the damage of the augment. Shooting enemies would result in you not getting any benefit fromt he augment at all.

Quote

Surging Blades is a Warframe Augment Mod for Yareli's Aquablades that allows her to recast the ability while active to throw a single piercing blade dealing damage and a guaranteed Slash status effect in a small radius. The bubble's damage accumulates when any Aquablade directly hits an enemy.

If you don't get it now I don't know how to explain it to you.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Although weak, it still changes how I can play. Without augment I have to use terrain, jumping and wall dashing to achieve certain positions. On other hand Cataput is basically bullet jump - aim and shoot (yourself).

You are still using the ball to deal damage. The ball itself is what changes Grendel's gameplay, not the augment, which just improves the gameplay and makes it slightly better.

So using melee, guns, bazooka, throwing other enemies, doing magic, voodo is the same because it's dmage?

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Intent of those 3 skills are to be used in certain situations not necessary all of 3. So you are defending certain position and you put Gaze. You want "easy headshot" so you Deny enemies. You don't put Gaze in exterminate because it's not very efficient.

And the augment doesnt change that.

So with augment, to get that STrength boost, I can put only Gaze?! No, I cannot...

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Quote

Buffs
- Ember Fireball frenzy - adds heat damage to attacks to allies
- Frost Freeze Force - same
- Oberon Smite Infusion
- Volt Shock Trooper
- Saryn Venom Dose

Recasting gives certain effects:
- Rhino Piercing roar - knockdown & 10x puncture status
- Nezha - Pyroclastic flow - recasting make fire trail, so instead of running you aim where you want to make fire trail
- Chroma Guided effigy - lets you control where the Dragon is and what is aiming FROM cast & forget ability
- Octavia Conductor - similar to above

Other effects:
- Nekros Soul survivor lets you revive allies
- Ivara - Infiltrate lets you just go through lasers instead of hacking consoles
- Gauss Mach crush - because of how it's coded (bug, maybe they changed it) vortex is created only when you hold ability during touching walls, and probably needs some distance (e.g. you cannot do it while touching wall)

Expand

With Nyx & Atlas that's 14 from 158. That's nearly 10%. I've missed some and I've not touched any that "turn off passive".

It's still the same skill with an added function that strengthens the skill. The baseline has not gone anywhere. So falls inline with the actual meaning of augmented.

Base can be unchanged. That doesn't mean that whole ability hasn't changed.

Reitrix · November 21, 2023

I suggested it in the most recent Augment Slot thread, But ill reiterate here because it is relevant to the topic:
Some augments truly are bandaids to fix an ability that should be either in a dedicated slot or baked in.
Not "make more powerful", To literally fix something fundamentally wrong with an ability.

Aquablades is a good example. Its a barely noticeable set'n'forget buff that doesn't accomplish much because you aren't ever going to be standing next to a mob in melee for anywhere near long enough for the blades do much more than apply a condition for CO/GApt.
So, an augment that lets you yeet it at targets? Thats not an augment, thats giving it a function that should have been the baseline. A *bandaid*.

Equinox is in a similar boat.
There are 3 ways to play her. Dedicated Day, Dedicated Night or a hybrid.
Personally, I find playing both sides regularly through the mission as a hybrid to be a better experience than running a dedicated one without/limited use of Metamorposis.
But only if using Energy Transfer. Forced deactivation coupled with a painfully long fullstop cast animation (Insert 'just cast while moving 5head!'. Obviously. I'm not entirely without braincells, despite my continued usage of these forums) just feels awkward as hell in addition to needing to rebuild the buffer every time... Not to mention being an arbitrary Energy tax for having to recast it constantly.
Losing her third is also a pain, But that casts reasonably quickly by comparison so it isn't quite as painful. But still stupid and chafes in regular gameplay.

Basically, Any attempt to dynamically utilize Metamorphosis for its Armor/Shield/WDamage/Speed buffs and optionally, its augment for the clone, essentially kicks the other half of her kit in the teeth.
Energy Transfer needs to be the default behaviour OR they need to tweak her so that using Metamorphosis doesn't cancel her 3 and 4.

I'll agree that the list of 'bandaid' mods is quite small compared to the total list. But they do exist.
Either a dedicated Exilus style mod slot whereby ONLY stuff like Energy TRansfer, Greedy Pull, Aquablade yeet etc can fit into it or making them actual Exilus slot mods.
I'd also settle for them baking those directly into the abilities ...

Skoomaseller · November 21, 2023

5 hours ago, Reitrix said:

I suggested it in the most recent Augment Slot thread, But ill reiterate here because it is relevant to the topic:
Some augments truly are bandaids to fix an ability that should be either in a dedicated slot or baked in.
Not "make more powerful", To literally fix something fundamentally wrong with an ability.

Aquablades is a good example. Its a barely noticeable set'n'forget buff that doesn't accomplish much because you aren't ever going to be standing next to a mob in melee for anywhere near long enough for the blades do much more than apply a condition for CO/GApt.
So, an augment that lets you yeet it at targets? Thats not an augment, thats giving it a function that should have been the baseline. A *bandaid*.

Equinox is in a similar boat.
There are 3 ways to play her. Dedicated Day, Dedicated Night or a hybrid.
Personally, I find playing both sides regularly through the mission as a hybrid to be a better experience than running a dedicated one without/limited use of Metamorposis.
But only if using Energy Transfer. Forced deactivation coupled with a painfully long fullstop cast animation (Insert 'just cast while moving 5head!'. Obviously. I'm not entirely without braincells, despite my continued usage of these forums) just feels awkward as hell in addition to needing to rebuild the buffer every time... Not to mention being an arbitrary Energy tax for having to recast it constantly.
Losing her third is also a pain, But that casts reasonably quickly by comparison so it isn't quite as painful. But still stupid and chafes in regular gameplay.

Basically, Any attempt to dynamically utilize Metamorphosis for its Armor/Shield/WDamage/Speed buffs and optionally, its augment for the clone, essentially kicks the other half of her kit in the teeth.
Energy Transfer needs to be the default behaviour OR they need to tweak her so that using Metamorphosis doesn't cancel her 3 and 4.

I'll agree that the list of 'bandaid' mods is quite small compared to the total list. But they do exist.
Either a dedicated Exilus style mod slot whereby ONLY stuff like Energy TRansfer, Greedy Pull, Aquablade yeet etc can fit into it or making them actual Exilus slot mods.
I'd also settle for them baking those directly into the abilities ...

base aquablades is good for blitzing through missions and opening up containers while skating through the tileset.

shoot the bad guy with your viral weapon, just move past them with aquablades and whatever that didn't die to your weapon while you were speeding past them, dies to aquablades.

surging blades is not a bandaid. the others yeah. you might not see its usefulness on paper but in practice it's a lot better than what some might think

Edited November 21, 2023 by Skoomaseller

SneakyErvin · November 21, 2023

22 hours ago, quxier said:

I've not been aware of "no animations or no cast time" thing. However why not simply fix that issue instead of just banning recasting in the air? Sure, it's easier but it's too much imho.

How have you not been aware of those if you played Styanax before that interaction got removed? I mean, he had no animation for the other skills in the air and they didnt interrupt your javalin throws, so no animation and no casting time on the other 3 skills was quite telling.

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Where do you get 45k damage? As you said per second Styanax shoots 12 Javelins, each doing 1.5k damage Slash + 1.5k Blast damage. Let's assume that every javelin hits the target. 12 javelins X 1.5 damage is 18k Slash damage (plus its slash proc) and 18k blast damage. So PER SECOND you get 18k Slash damage, 12 slash stacks and 18 blast damage. At most it's 36k damage, not counting Slash proc.

But you are/were comparing the full buff duration of Aquablades to the full duration of Last Stand, which at that point is 30 javelins in total at baseline and not 12. Which doesnt really matter since the dps (36k vs 2250) on Last Stand is several times higher and easier to land. What is it you really want to compare and try to make Aquablades look better at, since it comes out several times worse no matter the situation. Damage over the course of 45 seconds? Dps? What?

22 hours ago, quxier said:

I guess you don't know Aquablades' mechanic. You don't have to stand near enemy to deal damage. Just roll, bullet jump etc. You can get 1-3 proc of Slash simply moving around enemies.

That doesnt mean it deals any worthwhile or reliable damage. Rolling = cant shoot for instance. Like I said, it cant even kill infested in a efficent way, even in high strength builds, not even when combined with roar on someone like Rhino, or on Garuda with her passive. While Styanax annihilates whatever he uses Last Stand on.

22 hours ago, quxier said:

And I've been just rolling in Kuva fortress using Kuva nukor for viral/heat proc. It's not that Aquablades deals horrible damage. It's status immunities and damage reduction that makes it worse than Final stand.

Yes it deals horrible damage, there is no denying that. If you already use a viral+heat knukor you very likely have little use for anything Aquablades provides, since the things you hit with the knukor will likely be long dead before you get close to them to do anything of worth with blades.

22 hours ago, quxier said:

And what is similar? 2 & 3 doing similar damage boost. 1&4 doing some damage.

Uhm lol what? If you are going to compare the two wouldnt it make more sense to atleast try and claim that 2 and 2 are similar damage boosts, since Dagath's 3 is a pure #*!%ing weapon damage buff and nothing else. And I assume you mean Sevs 2 and Dags 3, since Sevs 3 is Gloom.

22 hours ago, quxier said:

Ugh, it's about our perception not what elements are in the world (e.g. house, stairs etc).

Augmented reality changes how we perceive something (e.g. changing its color). I guess we can agree on that part. However AR can do it via different ways. Most common are just headphones & some screen near your eyes. There were studies about stimulating brain to get certain effects. I'm not sure what's the current state of that.

Yes which is different from change since things are still the exact same. Even if you have your tech on an apple wont actually change into a pear, it might look like one as you have the tech on but if you pick it up and take a bite from it you will bite into an apple. And if you decide to paint a wall while the tech is on and that shows the wall as turning green it will still be yellow if the actual color you used to paint it was yellow.

Also to be perfectly clear, no one has said that change cannot be included when something is augmented, what is said is that augment does not mean or guarantee change, nor is change required for something to be augmented.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

You can see word "improve". It's not just "numerical improve" as in "I improve my body so I can lift more kg". It can be use with non countable thing:

And when did anyone say anything about numberically improve anything? I asked what language you speak and how augment translates to that, if it somehow translates to "change" specifically, or a synonym for it like transform, mutate, alter etc.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

*sigh* so shooting using:

- pistol and having to click every time

- machine gun that you can just hold LMB to continue shooting

- Granade/Bazook that have damage around impact so you cannot shoot in close range

are all the same?! Yeah... if that's what you think then I have nothing to add.

Wow do you even read what is written? I'm saying life steal doesnt change how you play. Since with or without it you will still shoot, melee or use abiltiies to kill.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

If you don't get it now I don't know how to explain it to you.

That doesnt change your odd claim that Aquablade augment would suddenly change your playstyle into shooting (from melee I assume, otherwise what would you change?). Or are you refering to recasting Aquablade when you say shooting? That just adds another mechanic since you still need to be close to enemies and let aquablades deal damage in order for the throw to be worth it in order to further buff additional throws. If you arent refering to casting the skill again, then shooting would be detrimental to the mod, since the gun would kill and no damage would be added to the augment.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

So using melee, guns, bazooka, throwing other enemies, doing magic, voodo is the same because it's dmage?

Uhm what? How is that an answer or a question to what I said? Going ball already makes you not do those things. The augment doesnt change that since the ball playstyle is rooted in the skill itself already.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

So with augment, to get that STrength boost, I can put only Gaze?! No, I cannot...

No, but the skills themselves already promotes you to swap, the augment just buffs you while doing so. Using the pew pew skill alone is already promoted to be done after having the area stripped since the pew pew will deal significantly more damage or not have to deal with shields. Which does far more than what the mod adds in addition to that. The augment just promotes you to do it more often, which in itself is likely not a benefit compared to just stripping and then pew pew pewing due to dps and so on dying as you switch to get a slight strength increase.

23 hours ago, quxier said:

Base can be unchanged. That doesn't mean that whole ability hasn't changed.

No but it also falls inline with what augment actually means, to strengthen or improve. You gained an additional mechanic for it, it doesnt only do this, it does that aswell etc. As opposed to the skills that actually change, which completely alters how they work and transform them into something completely new with the old function gone.

But hey, lets say those are "change" skills in your sense to justify your idea of augment. You are still far far far far away from that being correct. Since if that was the actual criteria you'd be close to or over 50% of the augments acting that way and not a 10th of them that "can" be seen as changed skills through an augment as opposed to just improved or strengthened. I mean it isnt like we sit here close to 50% where it could actually be a viable view on that as a criteria for WF augments, we sit here several upon several % off, even more so if we start to look at weapon augments aswell.

quxier · November 21, 2023

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

I've not been aware of "no animations or no cast time" thing. However why not simply fix that issue instead of just banning recasting in the air? Sure, it's easier but it's too much imho.

How have you not been aware of those if you played Styanax before that interaction got removed? I mean, he had no animation for the other skills in the air and they didnt interrupt your javalin throws, so no animation and no casting time on the other 3 skills was quite telling.

Maybe I've not been playing him that much? Dunno. 1st is very similar to 4th. 3rd has long duration so no need to cast it. 2nd is different but I don't remember that it had some "problems". I remember putting Vial rush and it was fine (starts Final stand > Vial rush > final stands continues and ends). If there were issues it was like Titania/4 thing - only visual.

Then maybe it's team issues (I play solo).

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

Where do you get 45k damage? As you said per second Styanax shoots 12 Javelins, each doing 1.5k damage Slash + 1.5k Blast damage. Let's assume that every javelin hits the target. 12 javelins X 1.5 damage is 18k Slash damage (plus its slash proc) and 18k blast damage. So PER SECOND you get 18k Slash damage, 12 slash stacks and 18 blast damage. At most it's 36k damage, not counting Slash proc.

But you are/were comparing the full buff duration of Aquablades to the full duration of Last Stand, which at that point is 30 javelins in total at baseline and not 12. Which doesnt really matter since the dps (36k vs 2250) on Last Stand is several times higher and easier to land. What is it you really want to compare and try to make Aquablades look better at, since it comes out several times worse no matter the situation. Damage over the course of 45 seconds? Dps? What?

I'm not comparing full buff duration of Aquablades, just 1 second. You know, Aquablades has 45 seconds of duration. It make NO SENSE to compare fraction of one ability to full ability of another. I would have to compare 2.5 seconds of Aquablades to 2.5 (full duration) of Final stand. But you know what? It's the same as comparing 1 second. Just multiply it via 2.5 for simplicity.

And if I really want to take into account everything I would need to take energy as well. So during 45 seconds (Aquablades duration) Final stand would do 45*36k=1,62M damage max. Aquablades would do 45*2250=101 250. That's ~16 times less. And 8 times less Slash proc. But what about energy? Aquablades would require 75 energy. Final stand? 45*(100/2.5)=1 800. 1800/75=24. Final stand takes 24 more energy. So let's calculate damage per energy ratio. Nah... I'm to tired for this.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

I guess you don't know Aquablades' mechanic. You don't have to stand near enemy to deal damage. Just roll, bullet jump etc. You can get 1-3 proc of Slash simply moving around enemies.

That doesnt mean it deals any worthwhile or reliable damage. Rolling = cant shoot for instance

But rolling means 75% damage reduction, potential buffs like Rolling guard or Crit arcane. And even those benefits are not great it last for short time. Then there are other mechanics.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

. Like I said, it cant even kill infested in a efficent way, even in high strength builds, not even when combined with roar on someone like Rhino, or on Garuda with her passive. While Styanax annihilates whatever he uses Last Stand on.

Like I said it's status based. Final stand has more damage.

Do it with Grineer.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

And I've been just rolling in Kuva fortress using Kuva nukor for viral/heat proc. It's not that Aquablades deals horrible damage. It's status immunities and damage reduction that makes it worse than Final stand.

Yes it deals horrible damage, there is no denying that. If you already use a viral+heat knukor you very likely have little use for anything Aquablades provides, since the things you hit with the knukor will likely be long dead before you get close to them to do anything of worth with blades.

Not true.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

nd what is similar? 2 & 3 doing similar damage boost. 1&4 doing some damage.

Uhm lol what? If you are going to compare the two wouldnt it make more sense to atleast try and claim that 2 and 2 are similar damage boosts

What? That what I said - 2nd & 3rd dagath ability doing similar damage boost.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

since Dagath's 3 is a pure #*!%ing weapon damage buff and nothing else.

Ok, one "small" difference.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And I assume you mean Sevs 2 and Dags 3, since Sevs 3 is Gloom.

I meant Dagaths abilities.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

*sigh* so shooting using:

- pistol and having to click every time

- machine gun that you can just hold LMB to continue shooting

- Granade/Bazook that have damage around impact so you cannot shoot in close range

are all the same?! Yeah... if that's what you think then I have nothing to add.

Expand

Wow do you even read what is written? I'm saying life steal doesnt change how you play. Since with or without it you will still shoot, melee or use abiltiies to kill.

You could say the same with any abilities, action etc - "you still use Left mouse button" (1 button for simplicity). I have melee on LMB. However it still plays differently than guns.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Or are you refering to recasting Aquablade when you say shooting?

Yes

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

So using melee, guns, bazooka, throwing other enemies, doing magic, voodo is the same because it's dmage?

Uhm what? How is that an answer or a question to what I said? Going ball already makes you not do those things. The augment doesnt change that since the ball playstyle is rooted in the skill itself already.

I gave you example of different weapons or action that deals "damage" but plays differently TO SHOW YOU HOW CATAPULT COULD BE DIFFEREENT.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-20 at 5:22 PM, quxier said:

So with augment, to get that STrength boost, I can put only Gaze?! No, I cannot...

No, but the skills themselves already promotes you to swap,

Where? Do I forget some interaction? Armor strip -> Gaze. Grasp of lohk guns > more damage for Deny? Do I forget somethign?

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Using the pew pew skill alone is already promoted to be done after having the area stripped since the pew pew will deal significantly more damage or not have to deal with shields.

Oh, so you put Gaze, set Vast untime and use Deny (pew pew). Then what? Another pew pew because you have already Gaze put. After setting up stuffs you are going to use max 2 subabilities from 3rd.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But hey, lets say those are "change" skills in your sense to justify your idea of augment. You are still far far far far away from that being correct. Since if that was the actual criteria you'd be close to or over 50% of the augments acting that way and not a 10th of them that "can" be seen as changed skills through an augment as opposed to just improved or strengthened. I mean it isnt like we sit here close to 50% where it could actually be a viable view on that as a criteria for WF augments, we sit here several upon several % off, even more so if we start to look at weapon augments aswell.

Sure, that's good point.

SneakyErvin · November 22, 2023

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe I've not been playing him that much? Dunno. 1st is very similar to 4th. 3rd has long duration so no need to cast it. 2nd is different but I don't remember that it had some "problems". I remember putting Vial rush and it was fine (starts Final stand > Vial rush > final stands continues and ends). If there were issues it was like Titania/4 thing - only visual.

Then maybe it's team issues (I play solo).

What you are describing is the problem in itself. You arent supposed to be able to cast or do anything else during full body animation skills. You dont see Rev being able to cast other skills during danse aside from Reave that is specifically designed for it, Frost cant chain other skills during the animation of Avalanche and so on. So it was obvious that the interactions were a bug, otherwise they would have had animations while javelin was animating aswell, or as in the case of Danse+Reave, where Danse stops dealing damage while Reave is cast and animates, with the synergy bonus of Reave having a faster cast time. The only part of Last Stand that could/should have stayed is being able to recast it in the air, since other frames have similar skills that can be recast to allow longer air time, like Seeking Talons, Grenade Fan, Grendel gadgets and Photon Blast iirc etc.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm not comparing full buff duration of Aquablades, just 1 second. You know, Aquablades has 45 seconds of duration. It make NO SENSE to compare fraction of one ability to full ability of another. I would have to compare 2.5 seconds of Aquablades to 2.5 (full duration) of Final stand. But you know what? It's the same as comparing 1 second. Just multiply it via 2.5 for simplicity.

And if I really want to take into account everything I would need to take energy as well. So during 45 seconds (Aquablades duration) Final stand would do 45*36k=1,62M damage max. Aquablades would do 45*2250=101 250. That's ~16 times less. And 8 times less Slash proc. But what about energy? Aquablades would require 75 energy. Final stand? 45*(100/2.5)=1 800. 1800/75=24. Final stand takes 24 more energy. So let's calculate damage per energy ratio. Nah... I'm to tired for this.

Final Stand will deal alot more damage than Aquablades as you've shown. Honestly 16x as much damage isnt even properly describes by saying alot more, FS deals absurd amounts more damage than AB. Damage per energy is the only sitatuation where Aquablades would deal more, but that is also if you actually have 100% damage uptime during those 45 seconds, which you uhm simply wont. Damage per energy also matters little since any skill can surpass another in that sense by simply having a long enough duration, no matter how bad the damage or mechanics are on the skill.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

But rolling means 75% damage reduction, potential buffs like Rolling guard or Crit arcane. And even those benefits are not great it last for short time. Then there are other mechanics.

And uhm you cant roll without Aquablades? I'm having a hard time seeing your line of thought regarding most comments you make.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Like I said it's status based. Final stand has more damage.

Do it with Grineer.

It will be as poor or worse vs Grineer since their armor reduces how much damage the status effect will deal since the attack that procs the status is reduced by armor, which reduces the damage of the status aswell. So if it cant kill low health no armor mobs what makes you think it will perform better when armor is involved?

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Not true.

What isnt? That knukor should have killed them already? Then you need to get better knukor modding.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

What? That what I said - 2nd & 3rd dagath ability doing similar damage boost.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Ok, one "small" difference.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I meant Dagaths abilities.

So that is your answer when asked how Sev and Dag is similar as you claimed? Unholy gods it is hard to get antything proper from you!

19 hours ago, quxier said:

You could say the same with any abilities, action etc - "you still use Left mouse button" (1 button for simplicity). I have melee on LMB. However it still plays differently than guns.

Yes, did anyone say one couldnt? Life steal added to skills would be exactly the same, it would still be the same skill used the same exact #*!%ing way but with added life steal. It wouldnt change how you play with the skill, weapon or whatever if life steal is added.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes

Saying casting would make it far less confusing since it is a skill and not a weapon that goes bang bang, pew pew, brrrrr or boom.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

I gave you example of different weapons or action that deals "damage" but plays differently TO SHOW YOU HOW CATAPULT COULD BE DIFFEREENT.

Yeah that has nothing to do with the augment for meatball since it is meatball itself that decides the playstyle with or without the augment included. It doesnt swap out some other part of the meatball, it just adds to it, so meatball still plays as meatball plays.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Where? Do I forget some interaction? Armor strip -> Gaze. Grasp of lohk guns > more damage for Deny? Do I forget somethign?

You ask where and then describe exactly what I refered to. The skill already promotes using more than 1 out of the 3 toggles, the augment doesnt change that. The only thing it does is remove the need to toggle manually before casting while adding strength and efficiency for the skill.

19 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh, so you put Gaze, set Vast untime and use Deny (pew pew). Then what? Another pew pew because you have already Gaze put. After setting up stuffs you are going to use max 2 subabilities from 3rd.

Yes and you dont need to use more than 2 with the augment either. Since the buff only resets if a single skill is cast back to back. However the augment prevents that from happening since it auto toggles the next skill. You can still ignore that cast if you wish by manually toggling the next skill instead iirc. Which I honestly see no point in since casting does the toggle for you while also applying the effect of the skill with 45% extra efficiency most likely. Not that I would use the augment, or any skill besides Gaze anyways, there just isnt time for it as things die to stolen weapons and your own guns/melee. And the mod takes a slot that could be used on something that benefits the other skills aswell. Now if the +str and +eff applied to everything by maintaining the full rotation I would definently use it and all of The Lost 24/7.

quxier · November 24, 2023

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

Maybe I've not been playing him that much? Dunno. 1st is very similar to 4th. 3rd has long duration so no need to cast it. 2nd is different but I don't remember that it had some "problems". I remember putting Vial rush and it was fine (starts Final stand > Vial rush > final stands continues and ends). If there were issues it was like Titania/4 thing - only visual.

Then maybe it's team issues (I play solo).

What you are describing is the problem in itself. You arent supposed to be able to cast or do anything else during full body animation skills. You dont see Rev being able to cast other skills during danse aside from Reave that is specifically designed for it, Frost cant chain other skills during the animation of Avalanche and so on. So it was obvious that the interactions were a bug,

Wisp can cast her "shadow". Caliban can cast his "we are lift together" skill. At this point is just random. Oh, yeah, we should use other abilities BUT ... we can some.

And old Titania don't have all animations are are still "ok.

So if that's the cases it's just excuses, imho

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

or as in the case of Danse+Reave, where Danse stops dealing damage while Reave is cast and animates, with the synergy bonus of Reave having a faster cast time.

afair, when doing Vial rush, Final stand stops shooting

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

'm not comparing full buff duration of Aquablades, just 1 second. You know, Aquablades has 45 seconds of duration. It make NO SENSE to compare fraction of one ability to full ability of another. I would have to compare 2.5 seconds of Aquablades to 2.5 (full duration) of Final stand. But you know what? It's the same as comparing 1 second. Just multiply it via 2.5 for simplicity.

And if I really want to take into account everything I would need to take energy as well. So during 45 seconds (Aquablades duration) Final stand would do 45*36k=1,62M damage max. Aquablades would do 45*2250=101 250. That's ~16 times less. And 8 times less Slash proc. But what about energy? Aquablades would require 75 energy. Final stand? 45*(100/2.5)=1 800. 1800/75=24. Final stand takes 24 more energy. So let's calculate damage per energy ratio. Nah... I'm to tired for this.

Expand

Final Stand will deal alot more damage than Aquablades as you've shown. Honestly 16x as much damage isnt even properly describes by saying alot more, FS deals absurd amounts more damage than AB. Damage per energy is the only sitatuation where Aquablades would deal more, but that is also if you actually have 100% damage uptime during those 45 seconds, which you uhm simply wont. Damage per energy also matters little since any skill can surpass another in that sense by simply having a long enough duration, no matter how bad the damage or mechanics are on the skill.

But you cannot extend 2.5 duration to even half of Aquablades'.

You are talking about 100% of uptime of Aquablades... but I can have all stuff probably mentioned like other statuses, damage, damage reduction etc while pressing one button every 45th second. Final stand? Yeah, you can answer it yourself.

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

But rolling means 75% damage reduction, potential buffs like Rolling guard or Crit arcane. And even those benefits are not great it last for short time. Then there are other mechanics.

And uhm you cant roll without Aquablades? I'm having a hard time seeing your line of thought regarding most comments you make.

Yes, that's are benefits or whatever of using Aquablades, I don't know what you don't get it.

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

Like I said it's status based. Final stand has more damage.

Do it with Grineer.

It will be as poor or worse vs Grineer since their armor reduces how much damage the status effect will deal since the attack that procs the status is reduced by armor, which reduces the damage of the status aswell. So if it cant kill low health no armor mobs what makes you think it will perform better when armor is involved?

Bleed is not reduced by armor.

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

Not true.

What isnt? That knukor should have killed them already? Then you need to get better knukor modding.

Oh, "X should be powerful enough so Y is useless" kind of argument is bad.

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

What? That what I said - 2nd & 3rd dagath ability doing similar damage boost.

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

Ok, one "small" difference.

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

I meant Dagaths abilities.

So that is your answer when asked how Sev and Dag is similar as you claimed? Unholy gods it is hard to get antything proper from you!

Well, read my posts. I'm not going to repeat myself because you want to troll...

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

You could say the same with any abilities, action etc - "you still use Left mouse button" (1 button for simplicity). I have melee on LMB. However it still plays differently than guns.

Yes, did anyone say one couldnt? Life steal added to skills would be exactly the same, it would still be the same skill used the same exact #*!%ing way but with added life steal. It wouldnt change how you play with the skill, weapon or whatever if life steal is added.

If all you look at is "you click or press button and everything dies after N second" then everythign is the same. Otherwise it will be different.

On 2023-11-22 at 4:03 PM, SneakyErvin said:

On 2023-11-21 at 8:06 PM, quxier said:

I gave you example of different weapons or action that deals "damage" but plays differently TO SHOW YOU HOW CATAPULT COULD BE DIFFEREENT.

Yeah that has nothing to do with the augment for meatball since it is meatball itself that decides the playstyle with or without the augment included. It doesnt swap out some other part of the meatball, it just adds to it, so meatball still plays as meatball plays.

Again, same as above.

But WHY does DE release band-aid mods?

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