We need to start pushing Pablo harder about stat sticks (respectfully, of course)

[Hexerin]

Stat sticks being required for a frame ability to actually function is just objectively bad game design. It effectively means that such frames aren't allowed to use weapons in those slots. To give an example, I'd personally like to be able to use Dual Keres on Khora (because they're literally her melee weapon). However, because stat stick mechanics, I'm forced to use Ceramic Dagger (w/ incarnon).

Edited November 25, 2023 by Hexerin

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

im worried that without stat sticks, the abilities will be awful.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb Hexerin:

Stat sticks being required for a frame ability to actually function is just objectively bad game design. It effectively means that such frames aren't allowed to use weapons in those slots. To give an example, I'd personally like to be able to use Dual Keres on Khora (because they're literally her melee weapon). However, because stat stick mechanics, I'm forced to use Ceramic Dagger (w/ incarnon).

He should just play his own game. for the first time in his life apparently?

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Stat sticks

I can't believe I have to ask this, even tho I play the game, what do you mean by this?

[Merrcenary]

1 час назад, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika сказал:

im worried that without stat sticks, the abilities will be awful.

don't worry, just because an ability doesn't do millions of damage doesn't mean it's terrible

[ReddyDisco]

Removing statsticks would make the abilities worse since regular exalted weapons can't use acolyte mods, no blood rush or weeping wounds plus no rivens to boost the stats further. that would significantly reduce the power of khora's whipclaw or atlas' landslide, or gara shield ball of death. Besides, a lot of players are heavily invested in statsticks, some paying thousands of plat for a good riven just to use as a statstick. There would be an uproar that would make the aoe weapon nerf review bomb look like a toddler's tantrum. Doubt DE wants to deal with that while more important things are to be done.

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

3 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

don't worry, just because an ability doesn't do millions of damage doesn't mean it's terrible

try using it in steelpath without a melee then.

[Birdframe_Prime]

27 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

I can't believe I have to ask this, even tho I play the game, what do you mean by this?

Very simply: Some abilities inherit the mods that you put onto your Melee weapon. Not all of them, but things like raw damage mods, crit, status, that kind of thing. Most often the Combo Counter (because this is a damage multiplier based on level of Combo for some Abilities). Considering the Abilities usually have such low, or non-existent, crit and status chance... this whole thing  can be tricky to mod for.

However, for the stats that these abilities do inherit, getting a Riven for those stats can boost the effect significantly if the melee has a high disposition. As a consequence some of the least popular weapons are exclusively referred to as 'stat sticks' because of only ever being useful for their high disposition, while the act of using a melee for only the inherited stats is 'using a stat stick'.

Abilities that use stat sticks include, but aren't limited to, Atlas' Landslide and Khora's Whipclaw.

There is more advanced use of this trick, but it's very situational.

As to OP's point:

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

Stat sticks being required for a frame ability to actually function is just objectively bad game design.

OP is actually completely correct.

Especially when you consider that the repercussion @ReddyDisco thinks will happen is reactionary without even thinking of what OP means by this.

DE have the option to make these Abilities actually scale up by combining them with other functions, by using specific status interactions or having them work with the rest of the Warframe's kit to ensure that they can actually deal relevant damage.

DE have the proven and working cases where they know how to create abilities that can be devastating through multiple ideas. Separate combo counters, stacking effects, having a primer, anything that can interact to give something greater than the sum of the parts.

All they have to do is the same thing with abilities that rely on stat-sticks.

We're not asking for over-powered, we're asking to remove the jank.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[Circle_of_Psi]

7 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Very simply: Some abilities inherit the mods that you put onto your Melee weapon. Not all of them, but things like raw damage mods, crit, status, that kind of thing. Most often the Combo Counter (because this is a damage multiplier based on level of Combo for some Abilities). Considering the Abilities usually have such low, or non-existent, crit and status chance... this whole thing  can be tricky to mod for.

However, for the stats that these abilities do inherit, getting a Riven for those stats can boost the effect significantly if the melee has a high disposition. As a consequence some of the least popular weapons are exclusively referred to as 'stat sticks' because of only ever being useful for their high disposition, while the act of using a melee for only the inherited stats is 'using a stat stick'.

Abilities that use stat sticks include, but aren't limited to, Atlas' Avalanche and Khora's Whipclaw.

There is more advanced use of this trick, but it's very situational.

Ahh, alright that makes more sense, thank you.

[Merrcenary]

8 минут назад, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika сказал:

try using it in steelpath without a melee then.

just watched random video in youtube and if you consider 170-200k damage is low then, well, i wonder how you rate saryn in steelpath

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

5 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

just watched random video in youtube and if you consider 170-200k damage is low then, well, i wonder how you rate saryn in steelpath

literally just tested without a melee on level 70 non steelpath grineer gunners and it does not hit for 200k

again, i said WITHOUT a melee.

Edit: it does like 70 damage VS level 70 grineer (non steelpath)

Edited November 25, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika
added image

[Merrcenary]

1 минуту назад, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika сказал:

literally just tested without a melee in level 70 non steelpath grineer gunners and it does not hit for 200k

again, i said WITHOUT a melee.

Edit: it does like 70 damage VS level 70 grineer (non steelpath)

sure without a melee it won't do any damage because this abilities need to be reworked in exalted weapon like mesa have (because even tho whipclaw has its own stats but uses stats from your melee)

[Traumtulpe]

Stat sticks being a thing means that rivens for warframe abilities are a thing. I don't think that's a positive in the abstract.

On the other hand, I have zero faith that most of those abilities will still be relevant if you remove stat sticks - I mean, there's lot's of abilities that *don't* use stat sticks, like Ash's Shuriken or Embers Fireball, and they're all pretty much useless.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

just watched random video in youtube and if you consider 170-200k damage is low then, well, i wonder how you rate saryn in steelpath

No offense meant on this reply, but this is actually a bad take, my friend.

Damage in Warframe is never about how much you deal, it's about how you deal it and what it takes to get there. Saryn's damage is in the right elemental type, the right status type, easy to scale, easy to spread, and backed up by other abilities and other multipliers that allow her to survive and deal more damage at the same time.

An ability like Landslide, which is a short-distance, incredibly small AoE, has to be cast again and again at the exclusion of every single other action you could be doing, and has no options for actually breaking through scaled-up armour is not the same.

To be clear, 170-200k does seem like a lot. You're not wrong.

The difference is that at level 120 with Steel Path buffs, a Heavy Gunner has an Effective Health Pool of 5,375,376. With this, your 200k hit will need to be cast 26 times.

Saryn's Corrosive will strip that armour down to only about 24% of its strength in a few ticks, often while you're not even looking, while dealing those same damage numbers, which can then be affected by Viral to instantly double them or even scale them up to 3.5x damage.

You're even realising the point here, with this comment:

4 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

sure without a melee it won't do any damage because this abilities need to be reworked in exalted weapon like mesa have (because even tho whipclaw has its own stats but uses stats from your melee)

See?

The janky nature of requiring a Melee weapon is exactly the problem. It shouldn't be needed.

And even then, reworking into an Ability Melee is not needed either. DE have shown that they can make abilities do decent damage that can be scaled to relevant levels in other frames.

Why not on these ones?

Edited November 25, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

22 minutes ago, Merrcenary said:

sure without a melee it won't do any damage because this abilities need to be reworked in exalted weapon like mesa have (because even tho whipclaw has its own stats but uses stats from your melee)

if exalted weapons had the ability to use half the mods that makes melees strong, sure. but i honestly think they would be pretty bad as a normal exalted, since they cant use Bloodrush or weeping wounds and a lot of other mods that make it as strong as it is.

examples:

also, remember, several of the Exalted weapon frames have insane ability augments that are FAR FAR better than the whipclaw augment

Edit: these are to show how insane the base stats usely are for exalted weapons, the fact that their arsenal numbers can get that high proves how stat hungry they are without some vital mods.

18 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No offense meant on this reply, but this is actually a bad take, my friend.

Damage in Warframe is never about how much you deal, it's about how you deal it and what it takes to get there. Saryn's damage is in the right elemental type, the right status type, easy to scale, easy to spread, and backed up by other abilities and other multipliers that allow her to survive and deal more damage at the same time.

An ability like Landslide, which is a short-distance, incredibly small AoE, has to be cast again and again at the exclusion of every single other action you could be doing, and has no options for actually breaking through scaled-up armour is not the same.

To be clear, 170-200k does seem like a lot. You're not wrong.

The difference is that at level 120 with Steel Path buffs, a Heavy Gunner has an Effective Health Pool of 5,375,376. With this, your 200k hit will need to be cast 26 times.

Saryn's Corrosive will strip that armour down to only about 24% of its strength in a few ticks, often while you're not even looking, while dealing those same damage numbers, which can then be affected by Viral to instantly double them or even scale them up to 3.5x damage.

You're even realising the point here, with this comment:

See?

The janky nature of requiring a Melee weapon is exactly the problem. It shouldn't be needed.

And even then, reworking into an Ability Melee is not needed either. DE have shown that they can make abilities do decent damage that can be scaled to relevant levels in other frames.

Why not on these ones?

^^^^

i agree 100%

these abilities would need a rework if they didnt have the stat sticks, even as exalted weapons, they for 1, require recasting over and over and also require A LOT of buffs to be even usable, even with a normal melee, the semi exalted weapons are awful, they need a statstick to work in high end content. (i also dont do endurance, i just do steelpath).

 

i 100% support a rework of semi exalted weapons, though imo A LOT of other frames need reworks first.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

There's a bit more than that

At least knowing that it might happen is better than nothing

[Zendoker]

I agree that we need to get rid of the stat stick system, we don't have rivens on warframes for a reason. However, it is important to return all mods to the exalted weapon. At the moment, exalted weapons have limitations that are not justified by anything. If you allow all the mods to be used, then everything should be fine. Though compared to the new melee arcanes exalted melees may suffer this could be remedied by adding new ability synergies.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Zendoker

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 24 minutos, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika dijo:

if exalted weapons had the ability to use half the mods that makes melees strong, sure. but i honestly think they would be pretty bad as a normal exalted, since they cant use Bloodrush or weeping wounds and a lot of other mods that make it as strong as it is.

I think the idea that an exalted weapon can't use all mods is ridiculous (I was a Valky main for a few years and play it from time to time). Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side on this, if the mechanics are eliminated as they are today, they would become useless abilities, but I would prefer that semi-exalted weapons not exist as long as the full exalted ones can be moded with every melee mod out there. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by CosoMalvadoNG

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, ReddyDisco said:

Removing statsticks would make the abilities worse since regular exalted weapons can't use acolyte mods, no blood rush or weeping wounds plus no rivens to boost the stats further. that would significantly reduce the power of khora's whipclaw or atlas' landslide, or gara shield ball of death. Besides, a lot of players are heavily invested in statsticks, some paying thousands of plat for a good riven just to use as a statstick. There would be an uproar that would make the aoe weapon nerf review bomb look like a toddler's tantrum. Doubt DE wants to deal with that while more important things are to be done.

then we push for acolyte mods to also work on exalted weapons

it's a silly restriction anyway

Edited November 25, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[The_Royal_Elf_Mika]

16 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

I think the idea that an exalted weapon can't use all mods is ridiculous (I was a Valky main for a few years and play it from time to time). Don't get me wrong, I'm on your side on this, if the mechanics are eliminated as they are today, they would become useless abilities, but I would prefer that semi-exalted weapons not exist as long as the full exalted ones can be moded with every melee mod out there. 

i 100% agree that exalted weapons should be allowed to use every mod. if the semi-exalted weapons became true exalted weapons, i do think they would need a stat buff and probably other buffs too.

also, semi exalted weapons are about to get stronger since melees are getting arcanes, i highly doubt normal exalted weapons are getting the ability to use them, rip garuda's talons.

 

id also like to see Titania's razor flies become a exalted pet or something instead of being a semi-exalted. Razor flies actually use a stat stick too. (titania's archmelee)

realistically titania needs a rework. to make her 2 more user friendly (like Grendel) and to rework her razor flies. (id say probably rework her melee too)

Edited November 25, 2023 by (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika

[Hexerin]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

i 100% agree that exalted weapons should be allowed to use every mod. if the semi-exalted weapons became true exalted weapons, i do think they would need a stat buff and probably other buffs too.

also, semi exalted weapons are about to get stronger since melees are getting arcanes, i highly doubt normal exalted weapons are getting the ability to use them, rip garuda's talons.

 

id also like to see Titania's razor flies become a exalted pet or something instead of being a semi-exalted. Razor flies actually use a stat stick too. (titania's archmelee)

realistically titania needs a rework. to make her 2 more user friendly (like Grendel) and to rework her razor flies. (id say probably rework her melee too)

Just make her Razorflies work like Venari. The tech is already there. Could also add a "hold" function for Razorwing, that allows you to revive any dead Razorflies so you don't have to go through the jank of restarting the ability.

[(NSW)Greybones]

What do you mean can’t use other weapons in that slot?

[Karyst]

2 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

don't worry, just because an ability doesn't do millions of damage doesn't mean it's terrible

Well, what does it mean then?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

im worried that without stat sticks, the abilities will be awful.

they wouldn't be IF Pablo put in the time and effort to rework them properly, and maybe allow them to be modded separately like Exalted weapons. I think Atlas' Landslide, Khora's Whipclaw etc. would benefit greatly from this. but the question is, would they put in enough effort?

in the meantime, I've been using Wrathful Advance subsumed as a band-aid to see how it improves these abilities, and while they still aren't where they should be IMO, I've found that for most content, the extra 100% crit chance means that you don't necessarily have to carry a top tier melee for the stat stick, just don't carry a weak/poorly modded one. it's not perfect but it really helps.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

What do you mean can’t use other weapons in that slot?

If you’re playing a statstick frame like Khora or Atlas, choosing to bring a standard and effective melee weapon for actual melee means your statstick ability will do much less damage. They still tend to do enough for the normal star chart and even sorties, but the scaling just isn’t there without statstick support.