Please Restore Ember

[ReddyDisco]

1 minute ago, Marvelous_A said:

Currently I just give up on the shield and use max rank A.Vitality. But honestly her damage is just not that great the A.Vitality isn't doing much anyway.

yes, the 4 damage is quite low. long overdue for a buff, energy drain of 2 is horrendous.

[Berzerkules]

6 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

yes, the 4 damage is quite low. long overdue for a buff, energy drain of 2 is horrendous.

I've been trying Nourish, energy nexus, equilibrium, exothermic and energize to help mitigate that drain but using helminth, 4 mod slots and an arcane to deal with ridiculous energy economy on a single frame just feels bad. 

[Waeleto]

Not a hardcore ember player but it's sad to see the state she's become in atm

[Marvelous_A]

27 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I've been trying Nourish, energy nexus, equilibrium, exothermic and energize to help mitigate that drain but using helminth, 4 mod slots and an arcane to deal with ridiculous energy economy on a single frame just feels bad. 

I give up on her 4 entirely on high level. I subsumed Gloom to replace her 1 so she get some CC and life steal. Together with her half-arse armor stripping that's her 3 and the half-arse DR that's her 2 she can at least survive a SP mission and be somewhat viable.

Edited January 30 by Marvelous_A

[Hexerin]

The following is a mixture of mostly what I've seen other people say/suggest, but also some of my own desires for her:

Spoiler

Fireball could probably just use an outright rework. It's so vastly overcomplicated for a first ability. Plus, ability combo mechanics always feel jank and bad.

For Immolation, they just need to either cap energy drain growth (it's currently uncapped), or remove the growth entirely (and possibly adjust the base energy drain).

For Fire Blast, the armor strip should be decoupled from Immolation's heat level. It should simply be affected by ability strength, allowing 100% armor strip consistency. As that would also remove any interaction between Fire Blast and Immolation, however, also change the damage to be affected by Immolation's heat level. This would potentially also allow Fire Blast to deal relevant damage, as currently its damage is... yea...

For Inferno, should let ability range affect the radius (and growth rate, to keep it consistent) of the fire rings. This would let the rings potentially affect more enemies on their own, but also increase the chances of overlap. Would also allow the spreading mechanic to more consistently spread.

Additionally, Inferno's augment Exothermic could use adjustment to its energy orb drop chance. There's a couple options:

• Simply increase the base chance to something more reasonable, like 25% perhaps.
• Lower the base chance, but make it now be affected by ability strength.
  • Possibly cap how high it can go.

Regarding Immolation's augment Immolated Radiance, I feel like there's no need for the "50% of Ember's current DR" part. It would probably be perfectly fine if it simply duplicated whatever Ember's current DR is to all her allies. Still limited to affinity range, of course. Alternatively, add a new effect that causes Immolation to radiate continuous heat damage and status procs to enemies within a reasonable range (affected by ability range), and possibly have that range increase with heat level.

Lastly, merge Healing Flame and Purifying Flames into a single augment. Call it "Restorative Flame" or something.

• Let Ember herself be affected by the status immunity.
• Have status immunity duration scale with Immolation's heat level.
  • 4 seconds base, scaling up to 8 seconds.
  • Still affected by ability duration.
• Adjust how the healing works.
  • Instead of applying healing instantly, have each enemy hit by Fire Blast grant Ember a stack. Once Fire Blast completes its expansion, all stacks are consumed.
  • For each stack consumed, Ember and all allies within affinity range receive healing based on Immolation's heat level.
    • Probably reduce the base healing value to like 10 or 20 or something (scaling up to double based on Immolation's heat level of course).
  • Still affected by ability strength.

Edited January 30 by Hexerin

[haolee510]

Honestly Gauss just does what Ember's supposed to do, just much better synergy within his abilities. Not sure what to do with Ember that doesn't make either one seems unnecessary.

[Skoomaseller]

11 hours ago, Shiro-Nethermore said:

Please Give Ember back her Older Kit. i don't ever See any one play her now and i know i don't. So please fix her

Old Ember's kit lives on in Gyre. Ember just needs to be buffed.

[Okaazkul]

Il y a 12 heures, Shiro-Nethermore a dit :

Please Give Ember back her Older Kit

Why would you want to massively nerf Ember ? Because that what you basically say. Ember at the time what already desperate for a rework and some people argue that her actual kit is still not enought. She is currently able to do thing she was incapable before her rework, like tanking or being able to nuke Sp trashmob lvl 180. She only lose in the process Accelerant and the AFK-potential of her Ultimate, but it has been compensate by higher damage potential.

Her kit is also much more diverse : You can choose to tank with shieldgate or just with high EHP and healing, you can generate energy orb, you have nuking and armor stripping capacity, and give weapon damage buff. The only thing missing is mobility, but as a Warframe, you're already mobile as hell. The only downside is a majority of what is possible is lock behind augments mods, so it's difficult/near impossible to do everything at the same time. But it is how modding works : you choose to invest more into an aspect of the frame by putting aside the other not useful for you.

[PollexMessier]

I love hew new kit, aside from one thing. It's too energy hungry.

I can't for the life of me get her energy management under control no matter what I put on her. You'd think her 4 augment (increases the drop rate of energy orbs), arcane energize, primed flow, and max efficiency would be enough but it still chugs energy like a whale running a marathon through a desert would chug water. The cost of immolation needs to be toned WAY the hell down. Her entire kit revolves around it and it just dumps energy like nothing else.

[Hexerin]

She also just doesn't really do anything to Corpus, due to their shields constantly regenerating and making the heat procs not stick. Maybe Corpus shields should be updated so they have a regen delay like we do, thus preventing them from regenerating while afflicted by damage over time procs (heat, slash, etc).

[Xzorn]

6 hours ago, trst said:

CC was already long dead back then. The CC build was the only thing she could do beyond low level missions and players claiming it was viable were on massive copium. Same thing goes for the damage amping build as damage creep was and is still a thing.

As for current Ember she has damage resistance, armor shredding, far more AOE nuke damage than old Ember, and via augments: DR for allies and infinite energy orb generation. Plus she still has CC, for whatever value that is, with Heat procs and the knock back on Fire Blast and still has a damage amp with Fireball Frenzy.

 

I took her to level 300+ solo like I did every single frame years back. CC wasn't dead, not yet at least.

Other frames have damage amp but not many have 5x and I wouldn't consider Armor Strip a damage amp. Keep in mind we used to be able to fully strip for free with any good status weapon. That's why high status rate weapons ruled the higher level gameplay. Easy to amp damage. Not so much status.

She used to have 3-4 layers of CC which is why the DR didn't really matter. Heat procs, Accelerant Stun, WoF Knockdown and Immolation which was also a stacking damage amp I didn't add into that calculation. That's what I enjoyed about old frame design. Your build changed drastically based on what you're fighting.

I'm not going to sit here and say Ember was my easiest run but she could do it and had good group value.

[Chewarette]

4 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I've been trying Nourish, energy nexus, equilibrium, exothermic and energize to help mitigate that drain but using helminth, 4 mod slots and an arcane to deal with ridiculous energy economy on a single frame just feels bad. 

You're probably playing her wrong. I think I just have Energize on her and it's more than enough to mitigate the energy consumption. Just don't be permanently at 90% heat dude

OT: Pre-rework Ember was pretty much garbage. On the other hand, I think it's time for DE to take their head off their arse and remove the Line of Sight restriction on Ember's abilities (and Garuda while we're at it). Considering they continue releasing broken-af warframes with no shame, with everyone and their mother now having access to perma shieldgate, full armor reduction, %-base damage and unlimited energy, it makes no sense that Ember suffers from LoS.

Removing the LoS would be enough for Ember to re-gain some glory, and she'll be perfectly fine. Maybe not overpowered, but definitely very well balanced (as everything should be).

[Aldain]

I don't think current Ember is perfect (2's punishment is WAY too aggressive in the drain)...but I do have to question why anyone would her to go back to the questionable state she was in before.

Even if we account for Heat procs now...actually being worth a damn compared to when they didn't melt armor, she literally only turned on her 4 and...did nothing else aside from some occasional uses of Accelerant.

[Aruquae]

16 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

uh i play her.... guess im not any other player...

I also occasionally play her

It’s obvious we’re non existent, join me in the eternal void

[Xzorn]

Here, I found some old pics from back in the day with her old kit.

It's a shame DE bully enforced their low bar difficulty globally. I can't tell the difference between level 200 and 900 anymore. They're all made of paper. The only thing left is to gimmick Shield Gating / Invulnerability because they never fixed to real problem of exponential Enemy Damage Scaling 9 years ago when they were warned. There are so many unfair enemy designs in the game now cuz they probably just assume players will use these gimmicks and stat smash their way through... and they're right.

 

Spoiler

 

 

[ReddyDisco]

5 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Just don't be permanently at 90% heat dude

That is another issue, why should damage reduction be so punishing. lowering damage reduction by flushing meter to mitigate the energy drain will just get you killed in sp. it's not a well thought out mechanic. primary reason why i switched to shield gating instead of relying on this wonky damage reduction ability.

Edited January 30 by ReddyDisco

[Berzerkules]

5 hours ago, Chewarette said:

You're probably playing her wrong. I think I just have Energize on her and it's more than enough to mitigate the energy consumption. Just don't be permanently at 90% heat dude

You really think there are wrong ways to play specific frames? That's crazy.

[Chewarette]

3 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

You really think there are wrong ways to play specific frames? That's crazy.

Wrong I don't know, but not recommended ones, for sure. If one wants to play unoptimally, sure feel free, but then don't complain that you need 4 mods, arcanes, Helmint and god knows what, it's your decision to play weirdly.

Feel free to play Inaros with shield mods. But don't complain it doesn't do S#&$

[ShortCat]

Pre-rework Ember was considdered bad because old Heat status did not stack with itslef. Reworked Heat damage carries Ember as a nuker even though her reworked and current kit is total garbage. Pre-rework Ember today would totally rock, because her old kit had better scaling damage, especially with the help of Accelerant, better CC with WoF as well as Accelerent, better weapon scaling damage thanks to Accelerant. Ember needs Accelerant back. Today on the otehr hand Ember offers very little.

Ember has a spammy 4th ability that can deal modest damage... to up to 10 enemies per button press. Replace it with Thermal Sunder and you get a better Ember.
Her innate armor strip, a mechanic she desperately needs to deal damage, is highly inconsistent and expensive in her spammy kit. Helmith has better, more accessible options.
Immolation drags her down more than it helps her. DR is again inconsistent and thus unreliable; dependency with Fireblast is the only reason to even considder using it; its energy drain is just hillarious.
Ember lost her CC capability. Inferno is inconsistent (again) as a CC tool. Fireblast has travel time as well as LoS checks, while the CC effects themselves are rather weak alltogether.
At least Fireball Frenzy is still an option.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Pre-rework Ember was considdered bad because old Heat status did not stack with itslef. Reworked Heat damage carries Ember as a nuker even though her reworked and current kit is total garbage. Pre-rework Ember today would totally rock, because her old kit had better scaling damage, especially with the help of Accelerant, better CC with WoF as well as Accelerent, better weapon scaling damage thanks to Accelerant. Ember needs Accelerant back. Today on the otehr hand Ember offers very little.

 

 

Even when Heat status didn't reduce armor or stack. The raw weapon damage output was something few frames rivaled.

All you needed were weapons that could deal with armor. In my runs I used Zarr / Torrid with old Blast being yet another CC layer.

Hell, even Pox turned into bit damage with her.

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Chewarette said:

Wrong I don't know, but not recommended ones, for sure. If one wants to play unoptimally, sure feel free, but then don't complain that you need 4 mods, arcanes, Helmint and god knows what, it's your decision to play weirdly.

Feel free to play Inaros with shield mods. But don't complain it doesn't do S#&$

Idk, I see Ember as the basic elemental caster archetype from old rpg/mmo. I've always liked glass cannon casters and if a caster can't cast because they have no energy wtf am I even doing. To properly dps with abilities she really needs that full strip debuff to shine and that requires 90% or double casting. In both situations you need to manage your energy and that's what I build for.

[Venefik]

 What annoys me is that the devs didn't really lack creativity to solve the problem of WoF: look at Gyre's 4th. If WoF worked like that with better scaling damage and minus the aura, it'd have been basically fixed. Or simply making it into a low damage defence strip that would eat away at armor and shields over time would also have sufficed.

 But what really shocks me is how they just got rid of Accelerant as well. It was the one part of her kit that didn't falloff with enemy level, and it didn't really harm the health of the game in any way. It used to make builds more interesting and all its uses carried over to higher levels since cc doesn't take level into consideration and its damage effectiveness relied on weapons.

 Her garbage 3rd was preserved instead and her armor strip was put in it, which got buffed to be useful but it's line of sight check is still a blind bat. But nerfing her lith clear speed seems to be more important than making her at least smooth to play to compensate for the excess of micromanagement trash (which almost everyone bypasses anyways with maxed efficiency which just makes it almost pointless).

 Anyways, Ember is probably not coming back, but threads like this hold some value to at least communicate to the devs that improving skills instead of removing them completely is much better. We also have a pretty large amount of puddle threads, and the upcoming Inaros rework is an opportunity to exercise that.

[Hexerin]

6 hours ago, ShortCat said:

to up to 10 enemies per button press

The energy cost caps out at 10 targets (100 energy total), but the ability can target an infinite number of enemies on cast.

[RichardKam]

20小时前 , Berzerkules 说:

I've been trying Nourish, energy nexus, equilibrium, exothermic and energize to help mitigate that drain but using helminth, 4 mod slots and an arcane to deal with ridiculous energy economy on a single frame just feels bad. 

My nourish - equilibrium - exothermic - energize Ember can do SP Lua survival just fine, even at 75% efficiency. 

Energy nexus does not work when Ember is channeling her 2 i.e. at 90% heat.

The trick is to cast her 4, set everything on fire to maximize her ability strength, and then cast nourish to snapshot and maximize the energy multiplier. With molt augment the multiplier will be close to 4x. At that stage even zenurik can grant you sufficient energy, which is approximately 600 over the period of 30 seconds.

I was running nautilus so you know what? I may even swap out energize and use emergence dissipate instead. A single hit at 8 enemies with nourish will give me 200+ energy. The arcane slot can then be replaced with arcane guardian for DR or other stuff for damage. And I haven't put on synth deconstruct yet.

Yes, there is a lot of juggling going on here. It is a matter of preference rather than a frame being good or bad. Some prefer glass canon, some prefer press 2 to stay immortal, while other prefer some micromanagement. That's basically how this game works.

Edited January 31 by RichardKam

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, RichardKam said:

My nourish - equilibrium - exothermic - energize Ember can do SP Lua survival just fine, even at 75% efficiency. 

Energy nexus does not work when Ember is channeling her 2 i.e. at 90% heat.

The trick is to cast her 4, set everything on fire to maximize her ability strength, and then cast nourish to snapshot and maximize the energy multiplier. With molt augment the multiplier will be close to 4x. At that stage even zenurik can grant you sufficient energy, which is approximately 600 over the period of 30 seconds.

I was running nautilus so you know what? I may even swap out energize and use emergence dissipate instead. A single hit at 8 enemies with nourish will give me 200+ energy. The arcane slot can then be replaced with arcane guardian for DR or other stuff for damage. And I haven't put on synth deconstruct yet.

Yes, there is a lot of juggling going on here. It is a matter of preference rather than a frame being good or bad. Some prefer glass canon, some prefer press 2 to stay immortal, while other prefer some micromanagement. That's basically how this game works.

Yeah, if I pay attention to what I'm doing I can sustain with the set up I listed even at base duration and -45 efficiency which is 15.5 drain/sec. The problem is that build requires an energy multiplier helminth ability and a significant portion of the build(40% mods and 50% frame arcanes) to sustain. That's not a good metric to gauge a frame for how it preforms imo. If it takes that much of a build to compensate for the passive energy drain of a frame I think that frame could use a few tweaks, especially when we are getting new frames with abilities like lycath's hunt and fractured blast which are basically free energy. 

I'll admit that the build I listed has crazy high drain but if you build for minimum drain you are using about the same amount of mods/arcanes on that build.

Correct, Immolation works like any other channeling ability at 90% so Ember can't get energy from pads, dash, energy nexus and several other sources of energy regen but imo energy nexus works well at <90% when using nourish.