Changing how recharging weapons work.

[0_The_F00l]

So I have seen in many conversation that rechargable ammo weapons comes up as the next alternative to keep up mindless slaughter while feeding you up from ammo management.

While I don't fully agree that's the case for every weapon with recharge mechanics , It does raise some questions , 

For those that don't know , there are weapons that reload their magazine over time without actually needing ammo pickups.

So I thought what if the recharging could be made a bit more engaging and also provide some benefits while having some checks and balances.

There would be a few different kinds depending on the weapon type.

For most Tenno/corpus weapons I thought of Gauss and how he generates battery charge , he does so by moving around very fast. What if we can apply the same logic to battery weapons , you still recharge at a fixed rate , but having fast movement recharges it that much faster.

For things like the shedu ,basmu and bubonico it would consume your health if you reload from empty (it reloads full magazine and does so relatively quickly), but reloading from empty would also give you some health leech effects (basmu already does this pretty well, and hema is an excellent reference granting health on headshots)  

I don't recollect any grineer weapons that have a battery mechanism.

[Miser_able]

could also give some of them mechanics similar to the perfect reload on the sirocco

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, Miser_able said:

could also give some of them mechanics similar to the perfect reload on the sirocco

Hmm , could be something to consider for sure.

[Pakaku]

What I want to see is rechargable weapons gaining "on reload" mechanics for depleting their magazines. Right now you can't gain those effects from mods you put on them.

I don't really want to see gimmicks like having to run fast in order to reload fast. That's a Gauss thing intended for synergy and "promoting" his speed. The Hema reload is kind of interesting as an infested parasite sort of thing. Basmu reloading would be cool on more pure sentient weapons.

[Xaero]

Talking about mindless slaughter, maybe make battery weapons consume shields (health for shieldless frames) to recharge and temporarily turn shield-gating off upon full battery depletion?

Edited February 4 by Xaero

[NinjaZeku]

51 minutes ago, Xaero said:

make battery weapons consume shields (health for shieldless frames) to recharge and temporarily turn shield-gating off upon full battery depletion

... why do you feel battery weapons are too OP and need nerfs?

Where is this coming from?

[Xaero]

1 minute ago, NinjaZeku said:

... why do you feel battery weapons are too OP and need nerfs?

Where is this coming from?

From the recent ammo rework? Its main goal was to stop spamming AoE weapons. It hasn't been met in case of battery weapons.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

The main benefit battery weapons bring is enable you to utilise buffs from Vigorous Swap and similar. Clip empty? Great! Instead of wasting your time with reloading switch to your other weapons and get a sweet buff. Repeat until everything is dead.

[NinjaZeku]

Just now, Xaero said:

From the recent ammo rework? Its main goal was to stop spamming AoE weapons. It hasn't been met in case of battery weapons.

So, specify that you want this for certain AoE weapons that you feel are too strong, name them, and their OP aspects.

Because I don't really see how e.g. the basic Plinx is anywhere near overtuned in its performance.

[Xaero]

10 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

So, specify that you want this for certain AoE weapons that you feel are too strong, name them, and their OP aspects.

Because I don't really see how e.g. the basic Plinx is anywhere near overtuned in its performance.

Not all ammo-based weapons were AoE either, yet they all got this treatment. The system was just tuned for each weapon individually (mag capacity/max ammo/pickup amounts).

The same can be done with battery weapons. In case of Plinx it can just consume minimal shield amount.

[MutoManiac]

No thank you, but they should make it mandatory to have black as an energy color for all AOE weapons.

Edited February 4 by MutoManiac

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, Xaero said:

Not all ammo-based weapons were AoE either, yet they all got this treatment. The system was just tuned for each weapon individually (mag capacity/max ammo/pickup amounts).

The same can be done with battery weapons. In case of Plinx it can just consume minimal shield amount.

You say this as if ALL weapons got nerfed, when in fact many non-AoE weapons got significant ammo buffs at that time.

I remain baffled over how you could think Plinx needs a nerf.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I think they're fine as they are. Ammo economy in this game is perfect for 99% of weapons anyway so the advantage of rechargeable weapons is greatly diminished.

[ominumi]

This logic makes no sense. It's to punish specters for using recharge weapons just like how specters are punish for using low ammo capacity weapons.

All kitguns can equip an arcane to recharge. Being punish for using a standard arcane with bad drawbacks.

Archgun uses recharge mechanics for ammo. Got to supply the ammo somehow.

Titania exaulted weapon Dex Pixia uses recharge. Die faster just so you can kill trash mobs.

[Voltage]

9 hours ago, Xaero said:

From the recent ammo rework? Its main goal was to stop spamming AoE weapons. It hasn't been met in case of battery weapons.

Kuva Bramma still spams with one of, if not the worst ammo economy for AoE weapons. Ammo was trivial before those changes and remains trivial after. Battery weapons are strong, but not that strong. The only time people "abused" battery weapons was for oversights in their firing behavior (Shedu for example).

[0_The_F00l]

13 hours ago, ominumi said:

This logic makes no sense. It's to punish specters for using recharge weapons just like how specters are punish for using low ammo capacity weapons.

All kitguns can equip an arcane to recharge. Being punish for using a standard arcane with bad drawbacks.

Archgun uses recharge mechanics for ammo. Got to supply the ammo somehow.

Titania exaulted weapon Dex Pixia uses recharge. Die faster just so you can kill trash mobs.

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain.

As per my idea you still recharge the weapon at a steady rate , the extra conditions are for you to have more control based on your actions , at the current moment there is no way you can manually influence the battery weapons while using it. Ammo based weapons can be reloaded even with a partial clip.

Archguns work without ammo in archguns missions , when using in atmosphere you do need ammo.

Titania has energy that (kinda ) is channeled for the weapon, that is enough of a check but energy economy is a discussion for a different topic.

[Greysmog]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain.

As per my idea you still recharge the weapon at a steady rate , the extra conditions are for you to have more control based on your actions , at the current moment there is no way you can manually influence the battery weapons while using it. Ammo based weapons can be reloaded even with a partial clip.

Archguns work without ammo in archguns missions , when using in atmosphere you do need ammo.

Titania has energy that (kinda ) is channeled for the weapon, that is enough of a check but energy economy is a discussion for a different topic.

I can't say I really agree with gimmicks like sprinting for a better charge, I feel like you could easily reduce the battery spam by just changing how the charge works.

Are you currently using the weapon? Well now the recharge is slowed on a gradual scale per weapon type. Auto Rifles have a near instantaneous charge that reduces to 75% after two charges, then 50% then 25% until you are forced to put the weapon away for a few seconds. Arm Cannons would have a normal 1-3 second charge to full from empty and would receive a higher reduction at 50% until you stowed them away.

The actual stats should be more fine-tuned per weapon, but consider it a cooldown of sorts. A lot of battery-based weapons in other games usually come with something similar to this like an overheat meter, so while your ammo is unlimited, your fire rate and usage is not.

[0_The_F00l]

49 minutes ago, Greysmog said:

I can't say I really agree with gimmicks like sprinting for a better charge, I feel like you could easily reduce the battery spam by just changing how the charge works.

Are you currently using the weapon? Well now the recharge is slowed on a gradual scale per weapon type. Auto Rifles have a near instantaneous charge that reduces to 75% after two charges, then 50% then 25% until you are forced to put the weapon away for a few seconds. Arm Cannons would have a normal 1-3 second charge to full from empty and would receive a higher reduction at 50% until you stowed them away.

The actual stats should be more fine-tuned per weapon, but consider it a cooldown of sorts. A lot of battery-based weapons in other games usually come with something similar to this like an overheat meter, so while your ammo is unlimited, your fire rate and usage is not.

Sure , the actual mechanics could be changed to be different , doesn't necessarily have to be movement based. Just something that's influenced by the player during actual gameplay.

[makaloff95]

On 2024-02-04 at 9:26 AM, Xaero said:

From the recent ammo rework? Its main goal was to stop spamming AoE weapons. It hasn't been met in case of battery weapons.

While i do recognise that AoE spam was an issue, the rework pretty much killed the entire class of weapons, their economy is so low now there is no point of even using them anymore. Battery weapons currently arent even an issue and nowhere close to what the AoE meta was and never will, so i dont understand this wish to clap battery weapons when they arent even a problem.

[Xzorn]

I loved Kitguns thanks to Pax Charge.

I don't have much to say on some of the newer built in recharge weapons though since I don't use most. I do wish Incarnon transform shared the same uninterrupted interaction with rolling and using abilities. Those are more or less the alternate options to recharge weapons giving ammo economy to weapons that really needed it.

[UnstarPrime]

On 2024-02-03 at 9:44 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

So I thought what if the recharging could be made a bit more engaging and also provide some benefits while having some checks and balances.

If there were a handful of new weapons that had special mechanics like this, I think that would be fine.  But I wouldn't want this applied to all existing recharge weapons.  Such a system would affect the way recharging weapons are re-balanced over the years, and that would result in weaker weapons for players who like the recharge functionality but don't want to engage with additional reload mini-games.

 

On 2024-02-03 at 9:44 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

What if we can apply the same logic to battery weapons , you still recharge at a fixed rate , but having fast movement recharges it that much faster.

I think Gauss's battery is a great example of how mechanics like these shouldn't be universal.  Because it's a neat mechanic, but despite my absolute love of Gauss's aesthetic and speed, I can generally only stomach a few rounds with him before I'm tired of needing to micromanage my movement.  There are a lot of people who enjoy the weapons they're already using, and if you add mini-games to those weapons, some of those players will be alienated from something they enjoyed.

[ominumi]

21 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am not sure I understand what you are trying to explain.

As per my idea you still recharge the weapon at a steady rate , the extra conditions are for you to have more control based on your actions , at the current moment there is no way you can manually influence the battery weapons while using it. Ammo based weapons can be reloaded even with a partial clip.

Archguns work without ammo in archguns missions , when using in atmosphere you do need ammo.

Titania has energy that (kinda ) is channeled for the weapon, that is enough of a check but energy economy is a discussion for a different topic.

You have to remember that Shedu was nerf because the recharge delay was too fast. As well as a decree in the Circuit which fully reload the weapon with just a roll. As well as adjustments made for mods like Tatical Reload. Reload as a stats is a balancing agent.

[0_The_F00l]

6 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

If there were a handful of new weapons that had special mechanics like this, I think that would be fine.  But I wouldn't want this applied to all existing recharge weapons.  Such a system would affect the way recharging weapons are re-balanced over the years, and that would result in weaker weapons for players who like the recharge functionality but don't want to engage with additional reload mini-games.

 

I think Gauss's battery is a great example of how mechanics like these shouldn't be universal.  Because it's a neat mechanic, but despite my absolute love of Gauss's aesthetic and speed, I can generally only stomach a few rounds with him before I'm tired of needing to micromanage my movement.  There are a lot of people who enjoy the weapons they're already using, and if you add mini-games to those weapons, some of those players will be alienated from something they enjoyed.

It's just one example of the possible mechanics , movement /headshots/ holstering / consuming shields or health etc. Could be used as the possible mechanics .

And these could be things as additions , not replacements to a steady recharge .

24 minutes ago, ominumi said:

You have to remember that Shedu was nerf because the recharge delay was too fast. As well as a decree in the Circuit which fully reload the weapon with just a roll. As well as adjustments made for mods like Tatical Reload. Reload as a stats is a balancing agent.

I am still not sure of what your point is.

I am well aware of changes made to different battery / ammo less weapons.

Circuit effects only apply in circuit and you have limited control of what weapons and what decree you get.

Reload on holster is indeed another method to control and influence it ,and can be something to consider as part of the mechanic.

Reload speed is a atat that is present in all weapons and is exactly what I am trying to influence.

[ominumi]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's just one example of the possible mechanics , movement /headshots/ holstering / consuming shields or health etc. Could be used as the possible mechanics .

And these could be things as additions , not replacements to a steady recharge .

I am still not sure of what your point is.

I am well aware of changes made to different battery / ammo less weapons.

Circuit effects only apply in circuit and you have limited control of what weapons and what decree you get.

Reload on holster is indeed another method to control and influence it ,and can be something to consider as part of the mechanic.

Reload speed is a atat that is present in all weapons and is exactly what I am trying to influence.

I saying Reload as a stats should NOT be mess with because it can alter the performance of a weapon. Be it by recharge, or physical remove of the magezine. 

[Tsukinoki]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's just one example of the possible mechanics , movement /headshots/ holstering / consuming shields or health etc. Could be used as the possible mechanics .

And these could be things as additions , not replacements to a steady recharge .

So what will be the downside?

E.G. what will be taken away for this "buff" as you see it?

After all I don't think DE is just going to buff every battery weapon in the game "Just because!"

Do you see the reload speed slowing down unless you jumping through 10 different hoops to just get it back to barely above what it was before?
or some other trade off?

 

After all ominumi has pointed out that reload speed of battery weapon is one of the various balancing levers that DE has used in the past.
And you want to drastically change the position of said balance lever.....so what's the trade off?
How will the weapon be made worse just so you can bounce off 5 walls and roll 3 times just to buff up the reload speed?  Where if you don't play like a rabbit on crack it just sucks and is painful to use? (which is why I don't like the Gauss weaponry....)