Crafting an identity as a player in Warframe isn’t possible

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

Can you blame DE though? Catering to idiots who just want pretty lights and big numbers on their screens is easy. No pesky game design required- what they want isn't a videogame in the first place. Something was going to part these idiots and their money eventually, it's better their attention is on shallow videogames instead of actual casinos.

It is indeed disappointing that many aspects of Warframe as a videogame have to suffer for the sake of tardbucks but I've made my peace with Warframe PVE devolving into daycare center for mUh PoWeR fAnTaSy imbeciles. I already have a place to go when I want to explore and enjoy Warframe's mechanics- the PVE enjoyers who want Warfarme PVE to be an actual videogame, however, have my condolences. 

[Tsukinoki]

10 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

You might want to play Trinity and use a non-meta gun, but you’ll be reduced to being an observer of mayhem in high-level play.

Isn't this, you know, just being a healer in pretty much any MMO that is dedicated to the holy trinity of archetypes?
Where healers sit there and do no damage and largely just watch everything happen while casting their spells as needed?

I mean you just described what being a healer is for the most part....and it's why finding healers is so hard to do in games.

They just aren't fun.

And I think if you take a step back and a solid look at other games and what it's like to play healers you'll see that they aren't too far from what you describe here, where healers largely just watch the DPS do stuff and cast heals on them and the tanks as needed but otherwise doesn't really interact with things much.  Sure they can be important....but it's not like they actually do the most exciting things in games.

 

And i don't think we should be forcing Warframe towards dedicated roles like that for a few reasons:
-First is that it's just not fun going "I'm a tank.  I literally can't do anything but take hits....." or  "I'm a healer.  My entire purpose is to keep the DPS alive so that they can have fun being a DPS...."

-Second is that co-op is optional.  And by forcing these roles on every frame you now are more-or-less forced to co-op, regardless if you want to or not.
Warframe is a game much closer to Monster Hunter and similar games than a traditional MMO, where teammates can help but aren't necessary.
Beyond that the social aspect of a lot of MMOs has been falling off over the years and more and more people are playing MMOs largely solo, with occasional groups, but largely just going through it by themselves.

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

To me I feel like gaming needs to find some balance point between codependence and self-sufficiency if it wants roles to feel better, because as it stands you either have hyper collectivism or hyper individualism with little in-between.

 

Did you happen to play Lost Ark? It's a horrible farming and gearing design but the classes and group roles were well done.
In many cases half your team could be wiped and players really pushing their skill synergy, iframes, clutch skills could push to the finish line.

In many groups / raids you could substitute a healer with Gunlancers and similar hybrid classes. No particular class was set in stone. DPS + Interrupts. DPS + Group Buffs. Healing + Buffs, Healing + Shielding, Tanking + Group Shields, Most classes had multiple interactions that were useful. I still recall during a boss fight, no healer left I used a last desperate skill that Gunlancers almost never used because it uses their entire tank gauge to shield the party from all damage for like 4 seconds.

Anyways. point being I think there's value in hybrid purpose for classes with some clutch higher skill cap options. Self Sufficiency was still there for every class. Some a little better than others. Offensive Paladin was probably the most fun Paladin I've ever played in fact. Sadly DE keeps the bar pretty low but it's something I've seen work.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Did you happen to play Lost Ark? It's a horrible farming and gearing design but the classes and group roles were well done.
In many cases half your team could be wiped and players really pushing their skill synergy, iframes, clutch skills could push to the finish line.

In many groups / raids you could substitute a healer with Gunlancers and similar hybrid classes. No particular class was set in stone. DPS + Interrupts. DPS + Group Buffs. Healing + Buffs, Healing + Shielding, Tanking + Group Shields, Most classes had multiple interactions that were useful. I still recall during a boss fight, no healer left I used a last desperate skill that Gunlancers almost never used because it uses their entire tank gauge to shield the party from all damage for like 4 seconds.

Anyways. point being I think there's value in hybrid purpose for classes with some clutch higher skill cap options. Self Sufficiency was still there for every class. Some a little better than others. Offensive Paladin was probably the most fun Paladin I've ever played in fact. Sadly DE keeps the bar pretty low but it's something I've seen work.

Honestly Lost Ark's gameplay bounced me off of it so hard I didn't play more than like 20 minutes give or take, I don't click with isometric ARPGs that well sadly.

I recall a similar event in FF14 though, all of the healers and DPS died in one of the 8-man (albeit normal difficulty) raids with 10% of the boss' health left and the other Tank and I clutched out the last 10% alone by rotating our defensive cooldowns and the fact that FF14's Paladin had a meaty healing ability that can allow it to function (at least for a time) as an emergency healer, also the other Tank was the more Damage/Self-sustain Warrior, so we synergized pretty well.

Of course it was just a normal mode raid, which lacked any kind of time limit/enrage or substancial DPS checks, but that always will be one of my more hype memories from FF14 and why I love how Paladin in FF14 plays.

[makaloff95]

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah that is why they should work like champs in Diablo, so they provide their buffs and immunities to all enemies around them. Like how the Guardian kinda works now, which makes it a better choice to kill first. Obviously multiples of them wouldnt stack, but if two are present, like say a Viral eximus and a Heat eximus, and the Viral spawned first, then the Viral aura would apply to the trash and the Heat eximus would only buff itself. But when the Viral eximus dies, enemies within range of the Heat eximus would then get the heat aura. So the enemies would first be immune to viral, then as that eximus dies they'd be immune to heat. Potentially they could also provide increased DR to allies aslong as they are alive, so full immunity to a single type of damage and then DR to everything else.

I had some ideas that involved OG similar to healers, but that would screw up too much for frames designed to rely on CC. With a DR the CC frames can still make use of CC to lock down trash as they handle the priority target. Which would likely be the most fair approach since we have a wide roster of frames with everything from wet rice paper armor to a living 1 mile thick wall of hardened steel.

im sorry to say but i doubt this idea would translate well into warframe. by the sounds of it, it would turn the game into arbitration (without perma death) and frankly, that would make the gameplay obnoxious. We already have eximuses that does their job well (aswell as irritating things like nullifiers and scramblers), you would probably alienate alot of the community if these changes were made.

also to be ontopic: OP, you can still play the game as you like, but i would suggest solo could probably fit your playstyle better as it would make it easier for you to run the builds you wish. If you go into a public squad you have to accept that people run with what they run. I dont always run meta stuff myself but sometimes im just too lazy to swap, especielly if its something quick. Also worth to mention, trinity still holds up in eidolons and defection (just as a example). But to conclude, i think your best option would be to play either with friends or solo, thats what i do sometimes when i want to play "rp" builds or just bring out something goofy like a armor strip buff support build on valkyr.

[Aerikx]

20 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Sure, I wish our weapons weren’t so strong that no enemies require us to focus fire, (or that enemies that DO require the squad to do so, pop up now and then)

The issue with this is that Warframe is more in the genre of Diablo, Lost Ark, Dynasty Warriors, Path of Exile.

IE: Horde based gameplay.

To have enemies the squad needs to focus upon (ala: Destiny Elites) would mean enemy count would need to dramatically be cut. Which would also mean that weaponry and abilities would need to be toned down. 

Effectively it's an entire overhaul of the game and honestly...it'd probably make the game feel more pay to win as those with money/play to throw will be able to progress easier and faster through content (as too heavy an emphasis on grouping locks out players) while Free Players or those more limited find themselves not only unable to solo, but undesired in groups because they're not as decked out. 

Every. Single. Group based game I played has artificial barriers that the community erects itself. 

Gearscore, Item Level, Achievement, etc.

Warframe experienced this during Eidolon hunts. Where players needed: _ Focus School, _ Warframe, _ Weapons, _ Damage.

The idea of that spreading to the rest of the game... 😬

And let's be honest. It totally would. 

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Aerikx said:

SneakyErvin put it best: 

Warframe has NEVER been a Trinity System based game.

Warframe has always been a shooter more akin to Borderlands than any RPG. 

In effect, everyone plays the same to a degree, but abilities and specializations create a "Loose" role of sorts. 

(IE: Think BL2's Siren & Gunzerker)

Everyone moves the same, behaves the same, but functions somewhat differently. 

To HARDLOCK Warframes into roles would be disastrous and limit the ability to add new Warframes. 

Additionally, to alter the game to make roles such as this function would mean to alter gameplay and gunplay from the ground up.

In RPGs roles matter because each role makes up for others lack. To translate it into Warframe would mean frames like:

Rhino, Hildryn, and Revenant have massive pools of health/shields but deal below average damage at all times. 

Trinity, Harrow, & Oberon would deal essentially slim to no damage and be made of fine china.

Mesa, Saryn, Protea, Gauss, would still deal high DMG but have no sustain, no HP, and no defense at all. Making them drop in an instant. 

So effectively, the game's enemies would need to be returned. Instead of hordes, we'd fight small squads/groups, shooting vital points would be necessary/required, and group synergy would be absolutely mandatory. 

At this point you might as well call it:"Off Brand Destiny: At Home Edition" 

That said Warframe does have ways people fall into roles. 

To this day you have Melee Loyalists, Gun Loyalists, Crit Preference, Status Preference, etc. 

In public games you have those who stay objective focused, those who scavenge every inch of a map for loot, those who just want to kill, and those who race for extraction as if they were trying to S-Rank a Sonic the Hedgehog level.

Your identity is more of how you play not what role you play. 

I personally tend to play support oriented frames in groups, but play stealth frames when solo for example.

Glad you brought this up since I had some plans to. Alot of people simply overlook the massive differences that come when a game isnt a trinity setup,yet they still think of that trinity game they played at some point and think the same could apply in the current game they play that isnt based on that system. This is also why ArenaNet waited and waited with raids, up until they had figured out how they could implement a "soft" trinity system without breaking the rest of the game.

 

22 hours ago, quxier said:

The thing with eximus/nully spawn it's not so simple. If you don't kill eximus fast enough they will be more of them in one "room". If you kill more or less fast but not too fast you still have many eximus when you are going from room to room. Of course it's for higher content than simple level 10. There are always +eximus options (e.g. eximus stronghold, or SP).

They probably spawn depending on our gameplay.

They are still very limited regarding how many can be present at a time. For me the issue if they just add more eximus, like from stronghold, is that it is just a massive benefit for me with no drawback. Which is why I ask for an option that would make them relevant as threats instead of being a Pez dispenser on legs for energy.

They spawn based on kill rate, since they have a spawn chance so the more we kill the more will spawn aslong as there is a spot for them to occupy i.e not to many eximus already on the field. 

And to be perfectly clear, a harder version of them should be optional. Then potentially gradually introduced to new content overtime to ease people into it eventually. But as a start, optional setting for old content. 

One thing I thought of. It is too bad that DE arent making "leagues" like Path of Exile, with periodic new game modes that introduce new mechanics to the game temporarily. This way they could have tried things like this out and gotten feedback from players. Then if it is popular they could have done like GGG does with PoE, add it as permanent additions for the game.

9 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

im sorry to say but i doubt this idea would translate well into warframe. by the sounds of it, it would turn the game into arbitration (without perma death) and frankly, that would make the gameplay obnoxious. We already have eximuses that does their job well (aswell as irritating things like nullifiers and scramblers), you would probably alienate alot of the community if these changes were made.

That is why it should be optional and only a slight benefit. Just make them drop 2x splinters when those drop, and possibly a guaranteed rare resource tied to the planet. Simple as that to make them worthwhile without alienating anyone. And while it would be kinda like arbis, it wouldnt really be. Drones are fragile little things that only require aim in the general direction, and promotes AoE at that, they also make everything 100% immune to everything. These improved eximus would just make allies immune to a single damage type while adding increased DR aswell. While requiring aim to take down. It shouldnt be anything random or stupid, it should be dedicated weakpoint(s) on their body so you always know since it is always in the same spot. And it wouldnt need to be Voidrig/Widow weakpoints, just weakpoints you need to destroy to incentivice bringing a single target weapon in your loadout. So they dont end up like regular eximus where you just AoE as you go and kill them as a byproduct of your regular mayhem.

I mean the game had a great pace even before DE opened and eventually lost the flood gates to AoE.

Edited February 9 by SneakyErvin

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I always liked to play the support role ( for example I loved to play as Mercy when Overwatch was brand new) and Warframe does allow me to do that and get into the 'healer' mentality with some frames like Citrine or Trinity, but while I have the option in my loadout selection and customisation, I don't have this option during the actual gameplay because there's very little use for support in Warframe.

[makaloff95]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is why it should be optional and only a slight benefit. Just make them drop 2x splinters when those drop, and possibly a guaranteed rare resource tied to the planet. Simple as that to make them worthwhile without alienating anyone. And while it would be kinda like arbis, it wouldnt really be. Drones are fragile little things that only require aim in the general direction, and promotes AoE at that, they also make everything 100% immune to everything. These improved eximus would just make allies immune to a single damage type while adding increased DR aswell. While requiring aim to take down. It shouldnt be anything random or stupid, it should be dedicated weakpoint(s) on their body so you always know since it is always in the same spot. And it wouldnt need to be Voidrig/Widow weakpoints, just weakpoints you need to destroy to incentivice bringing a single target weapon in your loadout. So they dont end up like regular eximus where you just AoE as you go and kill them as a byproduct of your regular mayhem.

I mean the game had a great pace even before DE opened and eventually lost the flood gates to AoE.

ah my bad, didnt catch that it was optional. yea then it wouldnt be much of an issue

[Aruquae]

On 2024-02-08 at 7:22 PM, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Can you blame DE though? Catering to idiots who just want pretty lights and big numbers on their screens is easy. No pesky game design required- what they want isn't a videogame in the first place. Something was going to part these idiots and their money eventually, it's better their attention is on shallow videogames instead of actual casinos.

It is indeed disappointing that many aspects of Warframe as a videogame have to suffer for the sake of tardbucks but I've made my peace with Warframe PVE devolving into daycare center for mUh PoWeR fAnTaSy imbeciles. I already have a place to go when I want to explore and enjoy Warframe's mechanics- the PVE enjoyers who want Warfarme PVE to be an actual videogame, however, have my condolences. 

Woah man, that a pretty condescending wall of text I just read. 
Calm down now, you can still use your unmodded Stug if you want. 

Edited February 10 by Aruquae
Calm not come

[quxier]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2024-02-08 at 5:51 PM, quxier said:

The thing with eximus/nully spawn it's not so simple. If you don't kill eximus fast enough they will be more of them in one "room". If you kill more or less fast but not too fast you still have many eximus when you are going from room to room. Of course it's for higher content than simple level 10. There are always +eximus options (e.g. eximus stronghold, or SP).

They probably spawn depending on our gameplay.

They are still very limited regarding how many can be present at a time. For me the issue if they just add more eximus, like from stronghold, is that it is just a massive benefit for me with no drawback. Which is why I ask for an option that would make them relevant as threats instead of being a Pez dispenser on legs for energy.

They still can have lot of eximus units presents near your. I'm not sure if there is limit like "3 eximus per room". Or maybe there is but it's huge like 20. YMMV

[Merkranire]

5 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Woah man, that a pretty condescending wall of text I just read. 
Come down now, you can still use your unmodded Stug if you want. 

As if an unmodded Stug is the epitome of gameplay.

Not gonna lie, Aruquae, I thought you had more sense than that; I get that you have no idea what an alternative style looks like, but if your impression not made in bad faith aligns with someone else’s who’s trying to make it sound bad, then that’s worth reconsidering, no?

Edited February 9 by Merkranire
formatting

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2024-02-08 at 6:09 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

As much as I agree, there is no way that they can walk the game back to 2016. The fundamental changes and MASSIVE nerf across the board to players would be enough to reduce the playing population by, like, 75%, if not more. And DE needs that money to keep the lights on.

Do I wish someone slapped the dev's hands away from the keyboard when they even thought about giving people triple digit crit increases, or when they even considered adding 90% DR to abilities? Absolutely. But this is the world we live in.

The only real potential solution to this is adding gamemodes that just limit you severely. DE has done this already but really haven't knee -capped us enough. Extremely limited revives, no gear items, pretty nutty enemy DPS, inherent ability use restrictions, severe energy drain and so on.

I know people want stuff like AI tweaks or mod changes, but at the end of the day those are too minor to matter, the only way we're going to see any challenge is if the game takes away most of our toys and forcibly makes things difficult. The game isn't normally designed like other co-op shooters, it's mostly a free-for-all. 

Edited February 9 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

6 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Woah man, that a pretty condescending wall of text I just read. 
Come down now, you can still use your unmodded Stug if you want. 

I'm glad your meager reading comprehension was able to struggle through two (2) short paragraphs.

Be proud of yourself, because I sure can't be. 

[Aruquae]

4 hours ago, Merkranire said:

I get that you have no idea what an alternative style looks like, but if your impression not made in bad faith aligns with someone else’s who’s trying to make it sound bad, then that’s worth reconsidering, no?

My philosophy is everyone can have their own playstyle, and not need to control other's playstyle. I personally like using quick thinking builds that add a good sense of risk, but others like being downriht immortal. And I am completely fine by that 👍. I'm sure you can agree we are all entitled to our opinions, no?

 

4 hours ago, Merkranire said:

As if an unmodded Stug is the epitome of gameplay.

Also, how dare you diss da stug

 

2 hours ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Be proud of yourself, because I sure can't be. 

I am proud of you, you responded to my sarcasm with sarcasm. This is the start of a sarcastic bond. 

[Aruquae]

4 hours ago, Merkranire said:

but if your impression not made in bad faith aligns with someone else’s who’s trying to make it sound bad, then that’s worth reconsidering, no?

Hmm, I'm fine with reconsidering my matter of opinion. I didn't read this entire thread though, so can you enlighten me?

[Merkranire]

13 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

My philosophy is everyone can have their own playstyle, and not need to control other's playstyle. I personally like using quick thinking builds that add a good sense of risk, but others like being downriht immortal. And I am completely fine by that 👍. I'm sure you can agree we are all entitled to our opinions, no?

I agree. Until those opinions start shaping people’s choices or how they feel through outside forces. Such as: blasting everything away so you have to scrounge around for gameplay, or furthering the idea that it’s as simple as saying “Modless Stug in Steel Path” is the goal, since that’s typically what someone would say when they’re trying to belittle. It’s not that simple, show some respect to the idea that what someone’s doing isn’t what you would do but they’re valid for it anyways

[Aruquae]

1 minute ago, Merkranire said:

Such as: blasting everything away so you have to scrounge around for gameplay, or furthering the idea that it’s as simple as saying “Modless Stug in Steel Path” is the goal, since that’s typically what someone would say when they’re trying to belittle

Ahhh I see your mistake. You thought me disagreeing with the OP's choice of wording was me disagreeing with the idea. No no, I just didn't like the false air of superiority that was radiating from the text. You don't need to get your point across by insulting the other side. I was simply poking fun at that.

When it comes to belittling... Hmm I guess you could call it that. Truthfully I believed "modless stug" could be that challenge to prevent actual overpowered guns to occur in your own personal gameplay. Think of it as a metaphor.

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

It’s not that simple, show some respect to the idea that what someone’s doing isn’t what you would do but they’re valid for it anyways

Like I said, less on the idea, more on their choice of wording. 

[Merkranire]

Just now, Aruquae said:

Ahhh I see your mistake. You thought me disagreeing with the OP's choice of wording was me disagreeing with the idea. No no, I just didn't like the false air of superiority that was radiating from the text. You don't need to get your point across by insulting the other side. I was simply poking fun at that.

When it comes to belittling... Hmm I guess you could call it that. Truthfully I believed "modless stug" could be that challenge to prevent actual overpowered guns to occur in your own personal gameplay. Think of it as a metaphor.

Like I said, less on the idea, more on their choice of wording. 

I think that’s fine, despite the original post sort of aligning with my own thoughts, I didn’t give it a “like” because of how antagonistic it came across.

Modless Stug may be a form of challenge, something I’d personally try myself if there was something to it, but you must be aware that phrases similar to that are also a euphemism for “Strip away all options and have us sitting around plugging away at some bulletsponge instead of feeling like cool fighters”, wielded by players who have indulged in overpowered play for so long they’ve forgotten what a fight looks like and think someone else is bonkers-crazy for engaging in it 

[Joezone619]

I mean, with steel path roles become a bit more imporant, support, dps, tank, but there are too many "jack of all trades" warframes which can do it all.

[Aruquae]

3 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Strip away all options and have us sitting around plugging away at some bulletsponge instead of feeling like cool fighters

Still believe we can still have good boss content. It all goes down to the mechanics, but that's another opinion for another thread. 

4 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

wielded by players who have indulged in overpowered play for so long they’ve forgotten what a fight looks like and think someone else is bonkers-crazy

Somehow double quoted you and can't remove it. Pretend this part doesn't exist. 

[Lord_Chibi]

On 2024-02-08 at 9:09 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

{I} wish someone slapped the dev's hands away from the keyboard when they even thought about giving people triple digit crit increases, or when they even considered adding 90% DR to abilities? 

While that is true, there have been frames like Rhino, Ash, Loki, or even Limbo since way back when.

[Merkranire]

6 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Still believe we can still have good boss content. It all goes down to the mechanics, but that's another opinion for another thread. 

I agree. Most’re usually not nearly so bad as many players who opt to insta-kill would have you believe, but there’s still room for improvement. Jordas Golem springs to mind, and I was thrilled when DE tuned down the damage attenuation on Archons since I felt like it was a little too punishing even for players who weren’t the target of the mechanic

[Nira]

5 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I am proud of you, you responded to my sarcasm with sarcasm. This is the start of a sarcastic bond. 

Aw, now I want a companion mod called Sarcastic Bond! I wonder what it'd do? 😄

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, quxier said:

They still can have lot of eximus units presents near your. I'm not sure if there is limit like "3 eximus per room". Or maybe there is but it's huge like 20. YMMV

There is a limit  of 2-4 (2/2/3/4) based on group size, which applies to the whole mission tile. So if you experience 20 at a given time you are likely in a stronghold mission or a bonus gate in SP Duviri Experience. And in regular SP it likely follows the cap of 4 no matter the group size, like all other SP density scaling.