What warframes need a rework?

[ReddyDisco]

In my humble opinion ember could use some changes to 2, 3 and 4

[Pragmatic_2015]

On 2024-02-10 at 12:03 PM, Aldain said:

Imo aside from the announced Inaros (who I admit does need it too)?

Loki, Nyx and Ash would be my top 3.

Half of Loki's kit is basically useless (plus more and more things can't be disarmed by his 4 so that only leaves his Invis as a generally useful ability), Nyx barely does anything (no, you cannot convince me Chaos is good CC, it gets worse every time DE makes a CC frame) and Ash needs some major QoL, especially on his 4, a targeting cone, a Mesa-like circle...anything other than slow ass laser pointer marking.

Why Inaros was the priority before any of these three I'll never know, at least Inaros was moderately tanky and had pocket sand...

Don't let any vets hear you say that. My main reason for wanting to use Loki is his aesthetics. But the problem is that no one can tell me how to use him. 

[PR1D3]

Honestly the post is incredibly flawed.

On 2024-02-10 at 3:24 PM, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

The reason that these threads never go anywhere is because everyone has very different opinions on what needs a rework and what doesn't.

My sentiments exactly. I tend to not like these types cause "rework" is a loaded term and it's apparent if you frequent the forums that everyone has a different idea of what constitute a rework. If I was to haggard a guess you would want at least 1 ability if not large segments of the kit gutted for something completely different. Another problem is that in the department of WF kit design is just as if not more worse with what is considered acceptable. Not just from the players but from DE as well. Quite frankly your sparse reasoning for many of these picks are not at all convincing. I don't know what you're smoking, but to even remotely think that Kullervo is "borderline ok" is nothing short of pure insanity.

I would say only a few frames are in desperate need of a rework (One ability needs to be changed at bare minimum) like how Hydroid got and most just need QoL updates akin to what Grendel got. We know a few intent with some frames to properly cast judgement on them. And others are clearly museum pieces from a time/update long past which makes it easier to see flaws. Lord knows I've been a Banshee advocate considering she's been in the game since Update 7, freaking SEVEN, and have seen no major changes other than some stealth addition to her Sonic Boom that can strip enemy armor in 3 casts. All her abilities have hard animations, even Sonic Boom. Ember's and Volt's First abilities used to have hard animations and they since became one handed but Banshee doesn't get it?!? Sonar and Silence really the only serviceable abilities and Sonic Boom still has it's augment but I don't think that should be acceptable. She needs to have a solid role. Decide where is the most of her damage going to come from, abilities or weapons, what level of survivability will she have and to what extent. There are a lot of factors to be considered when designing a kit to be sensible and balanced.

I need to finish up with my post detailing my own considerations and perimeters for kits, but I really want DE to have a DevStream where they explain their thought process. Cause I see some level of planning and consideration but each kit gives off the impression that not only multiple people are doing them, each are kind of doing what they want. As if there's no true design bible and/or quality control. Kullervo releases with several arcanes and signature weapon with a passive that synergizes super hard with him and combo counter. And on the inverse, Caliban releasing in the state he did was kind of unacceptable. Why the #*!% does his signature weapon bonus give bonus combo counter when he's not really geared toward melee play and none of his abilities benefit off it.

On 2024-02-09 at 7:43 PM, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

The fact that you have Voruna, Kullervo, Gara, and especially Garuda here is wild.  

This thread is going to be priceless

I agree but, I will say this. Voruna got in a much better place since those Equilibrium changes and a small handful of QoL to her kit in that companion update, yes. There is one small thing that does annoy me though. For some reason, your first shot in Shroud of D has this massive vertical kick. Don't know why. It's not like the crit bonus applies to guns and it makes it slightly inconvenient to take advantage of her third's energy orb on headshot when this ruins follow up shots. It's one thing to have a downside to balance out an advantage but like I said there is no firearm buff to it. Either make one or remove the recoil. 

Edited February 13 by PR1D3

[Xzorn]

On 2024-02-12 at 2:14 AM, Berzerkules said:

Voruna is a scary good frame. Her 4 is a solid meh but I dare anyone to name a frame with 4 great abilities.

 

I was able to scale her 4th to level 900s. You end up using her 2nd about 3x as much to insure you keep 10x combo going but still fine.

I never use weapons on her. Very specific play style but fun for what it is.
She's also the only reason I ranked up Archon mods since she can use all of them.

 

23 hours ago, (PSN)BattleCry1791 said:

what is wrong with Ember, frost, and oberon?

 

Current version of Ember is entirely inferior to her previous version. Previous Ember could amp party weapon damage by a formidable value with Fireball Frenzy + Accelerant. She traded AoF Knockdown, Accelerant Stun and room wide Heat Status CC for some DR that was already a part of her original kit with those skills.

Frost seems fine to me outside the same issue a lot of frames have which is Overguard Immunity. Frost used to be able to protect multiple points at once using Ice Wave augment but Overguard has him stuck babysitting one spot. Which is tedious and boring. They really need to ditch Overguard.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

This might sound silky but what if Frosts snowglobes gained overguard within affinity range of him?

[Berzerkules]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I was able to scale her 4th to level 900s. You end up using her 2nd about 3x as much to insure you keep 10x combo going but still fine.

I never use weapons on her. Very specific play style but fun for what it is.
She's also the only reason I ranked up Archon mods since she can use all of them.

I've been running Nautilus, cordon, manifold bond and pull on her 4 for grouping and amalgam argonak with gas + electric influence dagger. Whole packs of enemies just poof then I pull stragglers into the stacked armor stripping gas clouds and repeat.

What's kind of cool is pull opens up enemies to ground finishers so you can use arcane trickery and semi reliably maintain invis. 

Xata whisper on her 4 is also good build.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

On 2024-02-10 at 12:55 AM, PoppyPrince said:

9) Culervo - He is borderline ok, since he is a niche for…heavy attack enjoyers??? Seen any?

Calling one of the best melee nuke frames in the game "borderline ok" proves you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Xzorn]

45 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I've been running Nautilus, cordon, manifold bond and pull on her 4 for grouping and amalgam argonak with gas + electric influence dagger. Whole packs of enemies just poof then I pull stragglers into the stacked armor stripping gas clouds and repeat.

What's kind of cool is pull opens up enemies to ground finishers so you can use arcane trickery and semi reliably maintain invis. 

Xata whisper on her 4 is also good build.

 

Ah, Trickery. That explains it. I just stacked 250% Range 244% Power on her.

I used to do all types of fun combos like that but it just doesn't feel rewarding enough with the status and enemy defense changes.

I found reason to use every single damage/status types outside Magnetic. Gas was fine once they fixed the stealth triple dip and while Cold / Electric are mostly the same they aren't easy to pair without Gas. Viral used to be a good pair for Electric but it's kinda mid now. Not sure why most pure elemental weapons had to die either.

Getting dual elements on melee is pretty much a Riven only thing now.

It's a shame Voruna's 2nd is set at 10 stacks instead of max stacks or I'd throw a Tau Emerald +3 on her.
I might double check that come to think of it. I wonder if DE realizes they kinda made most Armor Strip abilities pointless now.

[Berzerkules]

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Ah, Trickery. That explains it. I just stacked 250% Range 244% Power on her.

I used to do all types of fun combos like that but it just doesn't feel rewarding enough with the status and enemy defense changes.

I found reason to use every single damage/status types outside Magnetic. Gas was fine once they fixed the stealth triple dip and while Cold / Electric are mostly the same they aren't easy to pair without Gas. Viral used to be a good pair for Electric but it's kinda mid now. Not sure why most pure elemental weapons had to die either.

Getting dual elements on melee is pretty much a Riven only thing now.

It's a shame Voruna's 2nd is set at 10 stacks instead of max stacks or I'd throw a Tau Emerald +3 on her.
I might double check that come to think of it. I wonder if DE realizes they kinda made most Armor Strip abilities pointless now.

I tried green shards on her as well. I thought I was on to something.

There have been a few recent additions that have been game changing imo.

With green shards we have access to a fairly easily obtainable armor strip on every frame without a helminth. Old corrosive is back...kinda.

The companion rework also changed things. Free passive 30m grouping is extremely hard to pass up. 

I pretty much main melee and therefore have a lot of high status primers, slap nourish on anything and you got viral/corrosive/heat with full armor strip. My primers are high dps now.

Slap on those new radiation mods on a primer and RDD procs shields on every hit. Shield gating just got easier without the need to fully reset in a single cast. 

Easy armor strip, free grouping and easy shield gating. Everything is coming up milhouse!!

[Aruquae]

On 2024-02-10 at 5:56 AM, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

While Inaros is slated to get a rework, I dread what they plan to do to him.

My greatest fear is that they gut his kit and play style to appease the people who don't play him, at the expense of those who do, like me.

I’m curious, what do you see in Inaros’s playstyle? I thought he was only considered a bullet sponge. Do any of his abilities do anything that appease to your brain? (Much like with old Grendel eating everything, or old Garuda being 2 health). 

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

I’m curious, what do you see in Inaros’s playstyle? I thought he was only considered a bullet sponge. Do any of his abilities do anything that appease to your brain? (Much like with old Grendel eating everything, or old Garuda being 2 health). 

I'm also curious because I honestly have no idea what they could do to Inaros that could possibly make him worse.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

1 hour ago, Aruquae said:

I’m curious, what do you see in Inaros’s playstyle? I thought he was only considered a bullet sponge. Do any of his abilities do anything that appease to your brain? (Much like with old Grendel eating everything, or old Garuda being 2 health). 

Inaros' game play, for me, revolves around dessicate and melee, with finishers thrown in on eximus. It's extremely satisfying to run into a group of enemies, slice and dice them with my dual bladed polearm, blind them with pocket sand, and heal up whatever damage they managed to sneak in on me, with a finisher to the face on the last enemy. No other frame gives me that visceral, right in the thick of things combat experience. (don't try listing other frames that you think provide that... they don't do the same thing for me as Inaros.)

He's one of the few frames that, by way of Adrenaline, has no energy issues whatsoever. His dessicate ability is practically free anyway. This is extremely freeing, when compared to nearly every other warframe in the game. As I'm mostly a melee player, not caring about guns, his high armor, and even higher when using Scarab Swarm, makes him perfect for how I like to play Warframe, rushing into enemies through a hail of lasers and shells, and then slashing my way through them.

Inaros can restore his own health in multiple ways, which was incredibly useful to my early game days, before Arcane Grace, before Arcane Energize, before the operator, before I had resources to spare to build health pizzas... it was either Inaros, or Oberon, for healing health, for me, back then, and Inaros didn't have the energy needs of Oberon, so he won out in the end.

Obviously, from that, you can gather that I don't really care for Sandstorm. That's at the heart of my main change to Inaros. His sand clones tied to the super slow devour were also subject to several tweaks in my rework suggestion, and I split off Scarab Swarm from Scarab Armor, with a tap/hold, so you don't need to worry about putting up his armor in missions where you don't need that extra armor, but still want to use the swarm... among a few other smaller tweaks, if you read my proposal linked in my first post.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I love Egyptian themed things, from real Egyptian architecture to Star Gate.

Edited February 14 by (PSN)AyinDygra

[Xzorn]

Inaros' kit actually mostly worked when he came out. Arbitrary restrictions are what made it DOA.

I did a rework post of him years back and mostly just removed restrictions while adding some skill interactions. Just allowing Shadows to be affected by Duration and Scarab Swarm to be affected by Range. He was instantly better just changing those two limitations. I think a lot of players might have lost love for Inaros due to Covert Lethality. That or maybe Steel Path finally showed the general community the terrible weaknesses of Armor mitigation. I dunno.

I was always trying to push the community to help fix him showing videos of Nova, Rhino, Trinity and others taking 5x the abuse.

[Aruquae]

42 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Inaros' game play, for me, revolves around dessicate and melee, with finishers thrown in on eximus. It's extremely satisfying to run into a group of enemies, slice and dice them with my dual bladed polearm, blind them with pocket sand, and heal up whatever damage they managed to sneak in on me, with a finisher to the face on the last enemy. No other frame gives me that visceral, right in the thick of things combat experience. (don't try listing other frames that you think provide that... they don't do the same thing for me as Inaros.)

I see... I'll have to try that later. I do love satisfying finishers. I can also see what you mean with health tanking. There's just something about watching your health go up and down like a roller coaster.

 

43 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

Oh yeah, I love Egyptian themed things, from real Egyptian architecture to Star Gate.

I too enjoy egyptian architecture. Their mythology is also interesting. 

[PoppyPrince]

15 часов назад, Ace-Bounty-Hunter сказал:

Calling one of the best melee nuke frames in the game "borderline ok" proves you have no idea what you're talking about.

i am tired of repeating it, but still, most of my questions come not from "this frame is weak" but from "well, as you see, nobody/extremelly little % of players uses it, what's their problem is they are so cool?"

Edited February 14 by PoppyPrince

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, PoppyPrince said:

i am tired of repeating it, but still, most of my questions come not from "this frame is weak" but from "well, as you see, nobody/extremelly little % of players uses it, what's their problem is they are so cool?"

Ace was bringing up Kullervo though.  Who was already of above average popularity in the year end stats despite only being available for 6 months of it.

So he's not weak and he's already popular. Why is he on your list of frames that need reworks?

[(PSN)BattleCry1791]

21 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Current version of Ember is entirely inferior to her previous version. Previous Ember could amp party weapon damage by a formidable value with Fireball Frenzy + Accelerant. She traded AoF Knockdown, Accelerant Stun and room wide Heat Status CC for some DR that was already a part of her original kit with those skills.

 

I have a hard time believing that the old ember could hang in Netracell.  she could barely keep up in T3 Sortie missions.  While her power set may have been more holistic, she lacked DPS for the then higher end game modes.  She had a really low usability ceiling.  She's own in the T1 to T2 world and steal all the kills but would falter pretty hard otherwise. Something had to be done.  

My only complaint about her now is that she doesn't strip enough armor with Immolation active, and I'd like see her 4 to either be faster to cast, or have wider range,  She just can't keep up with faster frames on exterminate.  

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)BattleCry1791 said:

I have a hard time believing that the old ember could hang in Netracell.  she could barely keep up in T3 Sortie missions.  While her power set may have been more holistic, she lacked DPS for the then higher end game modes.  She had a really low usability ceiling.  She's own in the T1 to T2 world and steal all the kills but would falter pretty hard otherwise. Something had to be done.  

My only complaint about her now is that she doesn't strip enough armor with Immolation active, and I'd like see her 4 to either be faster to cast, or have wider range,  She just can't keep up with faster frames on exterminate.  

 

I pushed old Ember to level 350 old scaling Grineer.

The problem she'd have with Netracells is a global thing any CC based frame has which is Overguard muting their ability to protect. Her DPS was actually pretty high but it was mostly weapon based as I mentioned. The trick was to use heavy Corrosive weight to off-set the increase in Heat weight. That or run CPx4 / Armor strip.

Shield Gating and some other tricks could help with that. Unless Accelerant Stun just works through Overguard like some other CC effects.

I still have old damage Calcs for her:

Spoiler

Ember with 209% Power Strength
Soma + Bladed + Fireball [ 98.04 + 176.472 + (204.9036)] * [ 1 + ( 10.2 -1 ) * [ 75 / 100 ] * 200 / [ 3 + (200 - 1) / 15 ]
479.4156 * 7.9 * 12.2449 = 46,376.129 Sustained DPS
(46376.129 - 26554.83) / 46376.129 = 0.4274 = 42.74% Increase in DPS
Soma + Bladed + Fireball + Acelerant[ 98.04 + 176.472 + (204.9036 x 5.225)] * [ 1 + ( 10.2 -1 ) * [ 75 / 100 ] * 200 / [ 3 + (200 - 1) / 15 ]
1,345.133 * 7.9 * 12.2449 = 130,121.08 Sustained DPS
(130121.08 - 26554.83) / 26554.83 = 3.9 = +390% Increase in DPS
Soma + Bladed + Fireball + FlashAccel [ 98.04 + 176.472 + {(204.9036 + 102.4518) x 5.225}] * [ 1 + ( 10.2 -1 ) * [ 75 / 100 ] * 200 / [ 3 + (200 - 1) / 15 ]
1,880.444 * 7.9 * 12.2449 = 181,904.202 Sustained DPS
(181904.202 - 26554.83) / 26554.83 = 5.85 = +585% Increase in DPS

Not many frames then or now can boast almost 6x group damage. With new stacking Heat DoTs the damage would be even higher.
This doesn't account for shooting through Immolate which was another +50% per Immolate since she couldn't afford to stand still to do that.

[cephalon_slay]

Justice for Nyx, my alien queen mother.

 

I feel like one of her abilities should be straight up mind control where you enter an enemies body and fight their friends. 
 

i love nyx’s design she was my second prime after Trinity. I use to spam her 3 all the time but now the game has evolved into a state where that isn’t useful and there’s really nothing else for her. 
 

maybe they can make it so if you recast her 3, everything takes damage based on how many get caught in it.

[Aruquae]

14 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

i am tired of repeating it, but still, most of my questions come not from "this frame is weak" but from "well, as you see, nobody/extremelly little % of players uses it, what's their problem is they are so cool?"

What Tiltskillet said, along with of course they’re going to have low usage stats if they’re new. When Lavos released in (2020 was it?) he had the lowest usage rate of all the warframes. That wasn’t because he was unpopular, but because he was only available for the last week of the year (plus people were still farming him).

[Skoomaseller]

On 2024-02-13 at 12:05 PM, ReddyDisco said:

In my humble opinion ember could use some changes to 2, 3 and 4

and her 1 please

[Aruquae]

3 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

and her 1 please

She has a 1?

I think you’re hallucinating, I only see 3 abilities

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

15 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

i am tired of repeating it, but still, most of my questions come not from "this frame is weak" but from "well, as you see, nobody/extremelly little % of players uses it, what's their problem is they are so cool?"

Over 1% usage rate in just 6 months is impressive though. Furthermore, this thread is titled What Warframes need a rework? which heavily implies that you think his kit is weak or dysfunctional (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

I'm going to repeat myself. You don't know what the Hek you're talking about.

[Aruquae]

9 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

What Warframes need a rework? which heavily implies that you think his kit is weak or dysfunctional (which couldn't be farther from the truth).

Agreed, it seems OP confused usage with dysfunctionality. I can see their reasoning with underwhelming frames such as Caliban, but again, Caliban is both unpopular and dysfunctional.

Edit: In other words, is it Unpopular because it’s dysfunctional, or is it unpopular because it’s underwhelming (such as old Grendel)

Edited February 15 by Aruquae

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

i am tired of repeating it, but still, most of my questions come not from "this frame is weak" but from "well, as you see, nobody/extremelly little % of players uses it, what's their problem is they are so cool?"

It really isnt low usage considering when he was released. In reality, perfect usage for a frame at this point would be slightly under 2% per frame.

edit: And if you dont count prime (and umbra) and normals as sperates Kullervo ends up pretty much in the middle of usage in just 6 months.

Edited February 15 by SneakyErvin