Nourish subsume is too strong in its current form.

[Nira]

It needs to do either the viral application or the energy bonus. Both is just silly, and its overwhelming presence as the subsumed ability on most builds reflects that.

[16Bitman]

I prefer seeing this ability to be the top pick for the pub randos I get over seeing gloom every other match.

[Numerounius]

I think the word you are looking for is versatile:

If I wanted to focus purely on energy there are other helminth options for that.

Viral? Again, other damage options exist. One of which is actively being looked at right now.

High enough range that you can grant it to others without too much of an issue. Grants energy making duration less of an issue.

 

Only drawback is that it is relatively new so people may not have fully put it into their builds, I personally don't have it on that many builds plus Grendel is considered one of the hardest frames to obtain by default. But on the flip-side that means that there is going to be a ton of content creators that have made content about it thus raising more awareness about it.

What we really need though is the full helminth stats to see if the usage stats are really that high to reflect the statement of it being too strong/versatile.

[Cerikus]

Nourish subsume is NOT too strong. It's completelly fine.

The problem is that the most subsumable abilities are either useless, weak, or nerfed.

If DE unnerf subesumed abilities and give the rest some significant effects, Nourish will not be used as much.

That's it.

Edited February 16 by Cerikus

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Even with diminished or capped values on Nourish or Gloom, they'd still be very popular subsumes. They're that strong. But I'm not sure I'd really like having the ability do just half of what it does right now, considering it spawns a build where Saryn gets additional Corrosive, Viral and Toxin damage all at once that I use often when I just want the mission done in a blink.

[KitMeHarder]

It has a large presence because like was said earlier, it's one of the few helminth's that's actually versatile. So it's good, but it's not really overpowered from at least a usage standpoint. Here's some examples.

• I had a pre-Duviri build with it on Atlas. When I first made it all I cared about was his synergy with with the viral AoE. I had no need for the energy and the viral damage buff did very little for my build, since Landslide has no status and was already being built for a lot of elemental damage. I later ended up changing and adapting the build, but that's not how it started.
• I now have a post-Duviri build on Atlas. I still focus on the AoE, but now the build actually kinda likes the Viral damage. However the energy boost I'd adapted my old build around, is now almost completely worthless.
• I have a Garuda build. She doesn't care about the AoE nor does she care about the viral damage. All she wants is the energy and the chance to proc viral.
• I have a Valkyr build that I adapted (forced) to switch to Nourish... she can't even proc the AoE in her 4. And honestly if I didn't change my build Nourish was going to be a decent DPS loss, but Eclipse was just so frustrating to deal with I had had enough. Now the build only does slightly less damage.
• Green shards have spiked corrosive's desirability, but people still want their viral. So plenty use it just for the viral.
• Etc...

Nourish is 3 minor abilities put into one in a system near devoid of versatile abilities (individually). And like I exemplified above, plenty of builds don't even utilize 1-2 of those minor abilities. So when you divide Nourish's usage into halves or thirds, that's a more fair representation. Where as I have builds that literally cease to work without a helminth like Terrify, yet I'd bet it has a lower usage rate than Nourish (more closer to the definition of "OP" IMO).

Usage stats aren't everything like DE seemingly likes to think. There's a lot of nuance. So while Nourish is fine IMO, if a slight nerf to the energy multiplier is enough for this crowd to forever leave it be, personally I'd be willing to make the compromise.

[Tiltskillet]

Maybe instead of (further) decreasing the injected version's power outright, increase the base energy cost to 75.  I feel like that's easier to justify than a reduction in its energy bonus, viral buffs, or explosion.

It's definitely still a great deal at 75 base energy.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Nourish isn't strong, it's versatile. The same can be said about Tharros Strike since not only provides full defence strip but also heals you generously. DE kinda screwed up by giving it Viral instead of Toxin, but even if they would reverted that back, the ability would still be versatile and sought after.

The only problem I see with Nourish is that the Helminth version is easier to use than Grendel's, which requires him to eat an enemy first.

[Nira]

Yeah, fair points.

Good point on Gloom, though I think that is too strong as a subsume as well tbh. The base slow needs to be lower.

I'm not really a "back and forth on replies" sorta guy, but appreciate the thoughts from all!

[Waeleto]

Warframe players when a helminth ability is useful while there are 40 useless ones:

[Iedarus]

I'm on board with making all helminth variants of abilities weaker in order to prevent frames from just being Helminth fodder, however if you keep nerfing the more useful abilities, eventually subsuming just won't be worth using anymore. I use Roar on Oberon (Reckoning is so baaaaad x_x) and it really helps Smite pack an extra punch but with how much DE has been nerfing it, aside from Eclipse which will also likely be nerfed soon, it's hard to find what abilities could complement his kit. Tharros Strike is good but how much longer until DE nerfs that as well?

It's like Rahetalius said, it doesn't #*!%ing matter how much you nerf these abilities; they are still infinitely more useful than most other options in this game. Nerfing them to the ground is only going to discourage players from subsuming all together because the abilities that aren't nerfed aren't even worth a damn, and the rare ones that are won't see use because the player base will just assume that those abilities will be nerfed too, so why waste the time and resources on getting them?

If there's one ability that genuinely does deserve to be toned down, it's Breach Surge, though seeing nerf threads for that is a rarity since it only shines in Steel Path where enemies don't die just by being sneezed on.

[Redrigoth]

11 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Nourish isn't strong, it's versatile. The same can be said about Tharros Strike since not only provides full defence strip but also heals you generously. DE kinda screwed up by giving it Viral instead of Toxin, but even if they would reverted that back, the ability would still be versatile and sought after.

The only problem I see with Nourish is that the Helminth version is easier to use than Grendel's, which requires him to eat an enemy first.

why would they make it Toxic Lash 2.0?

[iHaku]

13 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Nourish isn't strong, it's versatile.

versatility is a strength. a strength that it has over most other abilities, because those are just bad, which is a problem aswell.

i dont see why nourish couldnt just be made 2 different abilities that grant auras for "get more energy" and "get added viral damage" seperately.

or even better, have nourish be the energy only aura, and then modify a bunch of those garbage abilities like volts shock so that they do the viral weapon damage aura part of nourish for their respective element (and no, having to painfully recast it on each individual ally while also losing an augment slot is not just not the same but its also aweful), so people can choose what to bring to their squad. there'd more choice, which is what the helminth system promised to be.

"but that wouldnt be the same as how it was on the original frame" then just make up an in-universe reason as to why they are different. helminth modified them to be better or more applicable to your weapons or whatever. DE constantly pulls reasonings from where the sun dont shine, so this should be perfectly reasonable.

Edited February 17 by iHaku

[Xzorn]

If anything the actual problem is that Viral status is just stupidly strong. Like what were you smoking strong.

If they wanted to do a proper damage/status rework then maybe things could be different.
As it stands any Armor frame has to use Deflection or they will just randomly pop. Magnetic and Nullify have a similar relationship.

Nourish is an easy way to compensate those deficiencies in design.
If it's a non-Armor DR frame like Nova or Mesa, I will use Xata's over Nourish. Trinity uses Roar.

[Raarsi]

Sounds like more incentive just to buff Grendel's version.

[_GoodLuck_]

You got it.

Helminth was a mistake. Let's bury all abilities and forget about Helminth once and for all, because there will always be TOP 1 ability that everyone will complain about. Nice job folks

[Waeleto]

Are you guys happy now ? 90% of builds ruined because of this 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Are you guys happy now ? 90% of builds ruined because of this 

We don't even know what the nerf is.  Did you not listen to that part of the stream?  

If it makes you feel any better, I like what they said about it, that their goal wasn't to topple it from the most used injection, and that they'd be willing to buff it back up if it got hit too hard.  DE being DE, I'm skeptical, but let's see what they do.

Although DE could delete injected Nourish entirely, and it wouldn't ruin 90% of builds.   And nearly all the ones that would be crippled would still be workable with modding/arcane/shard adjustments.  So maybe cheer up just a bit. :P

 

[_GoodLuck_]

29 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

We don't even know what the nerf is.  Did you not listen to that part of the stream?  

If it makes you feel any better, I like what they said about it, that their goal wasn't to topple it from the most used injection, and that they'd be willing to buff it back up if it got hit too hard.  DE being DE, I'm skeptical, but let's see what they do.

Although DE could delete injected Nourish entirely, and it wouldn't ruin 90% of builds.   And nearly all the ones that would be crippled would still be workable with modding/arcane/shard adjustments.  So maybe cheer up just a bit. :P

 

It's more like DE introducing Helminth Disposition. Sooner or later it'll happen. The next candidate for nerf is Gloom. Mark my words.

After huge amount of nerfs I can definitely say Helminth was a mistake. It shouldn't exists

EDIT:

After Gloom, Pillage will be nerfed. With Pillage you can abuse shield gate

Edited February 23 by _GoodLuck_

[quxier]

16 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

Are you guys happy now ? 90% of builds ruined because of this 

We don't even know what the nerf is.  Did you not listen to that part of the stream?  

If it makes you feel any better, I like what they said about it, that their goal wasn't to topple it from the most used injection, and that they'd be willing to buff it back up if it got hit too hard.  DE being DE, I'm skeptical, but let's see what they do.

Yeah we don't know what the nerf is but... why not buff/change other abilities? Like you get Fractured blast. It costs 25 energy and have 25% chance to drop HP orb and 10% to drop energy orb on other frames. So to even get a chance of energy you need Equilibrum. Then you probably need like 200 strength. Then probably you have to recast it.

With Spectrorage + augment you have 50% chance on energy orb. It cost 75 energy but you don't have to recast it.

Or why use Atals' Petrify + Augment for extra loot? It costs 75 energy. It affects few enemies (in front of you). Require augment and lot of strength (400% for 100% chance for additional loot).

 

Then why having resource cost (feeding, infusing)? Why having only 6 slots? Add those 2 things together and it's no brainier that we will pick "the best" options.

[Waeleto]

10 minutes ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

It's more like DE introducing Helminth Disposition. Sooner or later it'll happen. The next candidate for nerf is Gloom. Mark my words.

After huge amount of nerfs I can definitely say Helminth was a mistake. It shouldn't exists

EDIT:

After Gloom, Pillage will be nerfed. With Pillage you can abuse shield gate

After what happened to Eclipse and Nourish it's almost GUARANTEED roar is next in line for a nerf, then gloom to kill health tanking then pillage to kill shield gating |
I hope everyone who asked for nerfs in a PVE game to stuff that DOES NOT affect your gameplay at all are happy
Might as well remove the entire helminth system 

[Tiltskillet]

34 minutes ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

After huge amount of nerfs I can definitely say Helminth was a mistake. It shouldn't exists

 

22 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

Might as well remove the entire helminth system 

Yall are very dramatic.

[_GoodLuck_]

7 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Yall are very dramatic.

Nowadays Helminth is like sitting in a wheelchair with only one wheel, and today DE announced that they are going to saw off the second one.

Either we get a normal ability or nothing. Helminth becomes trash

Edited February 23 by _GoodLuck_

[Kaggelos]

Personally I'm just happy that I wont be hearing Grendel's voice all the time

[IncuBB]

God im tired of elitist snobs that constantly whining "bUt It'S tOo StRoNk!!!111".
Ok, you got your end-game warframes, weapons, etc.
What about other players?
Game is too boring? No challenge?

THEN PLAY NAKED, FGS!!!

Why everyone else should suffer because you felt "bored"?!