Aldain Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 I'd say Frost's Passive Augment is mandatory if you want Frost to actually have a passive remotely worth a damn. Frost's passive is even less useful than Loki's, and that's saying something. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 5 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said: No we don't, you just want more power creep. We play just fine, maybe even way too strong, with an augment taking a slot. Yes we do, as long as there are abilities that are utterly useless without their augments we will need an augment slot I don't get why are people SO against it ? don't we already kill everything ? don't we already survive level cap ? it's not a matter of power creep because we can't literally be more powerful than this it's just a matter of optimization 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)C11H22O11 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 35 minutes ago, Waeleto said: Yes we do, as long as there are abilities that are utterly useless without their augments we will need an augment slot I don't get why are people SO against it ? don't we already kill everything ? don't we already survive level cap ? it's not a matter of power creep because we can't literally be more powerful than this it's just a matter of optimization Just because there's abilities that are bad it doesn't excuse the implementation of an augment slot, there's still frames that need reworks or buffs that's a separate issue. Yes we already kill everything that just shows how unnecessary it is, you just want to see bigger numbers, people are not suddenly going to pick up Valkyr with an augment slot they'll just get their meta frame and put more strength, duration or range on the freed slot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 7 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said: No we don't, you just want more power creep. We play just fine, maybe even way too strong, with an augment taking a slot. Nope, I really do want a dedicated augment slot. I agree that we are too overpowered, and you can take the shards away, Tau-forged or all of them, especially the ones that affect weapon damage. And you can flush shield gating down the toilet, and give a few extra yanks on the handle to be sure that it is gone forever. I wouldn't mind (actually I would be happy), but claiming that augments are the reason for our overpoweredness is downright silly. And I really do want a dedicated augment slot, I am not trying to troll. Because dedicated augment slots enhance build diversity (and it really is a mathematical-logical fact that you can make more different builds with 8+1 slots than with 8 slots). I also want more riven slots (one per weapon type in my arsenal, preferably), but that is another discussion (which also has nothing to do with ramping up the power insanity further). And the reason for both "wants" is the same, with everything done and new content arriving with rather long intervals (and with rather great variation in the "fun factor" too) the choice is to stop playing or create your own content. And both augment slots and more riven slots would help with such "content creation" (and quite a lot too). Btw, another mechanism allowing for more diversity (not power) is a "universal forma", allowing the use of all polarities in that slot. Edited February 25 by Graavarg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzorn Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 It's interesting to use power creep as an argument after DE soft capped enemy defense. They did it to themselves. Enemies die in 1 second or less regardless. Which is esp funny since they were so aggro on CC. Shut Down AI Vs Enemy might get a shot off before dying. I don't see much difference. The ultimate factor of pushing you out is enemy damage scaling. The one thing they should have fixed 9 years ago. That's why CC was rampantly used. It's why Armor DR was total trash for years and it's why offensive power creep still doesn't really matter. Melee did massive damage before but it didn't matter. You'd die before making full use of it. Enemy defense should have stayed exponential in some fashion (HP/Shields) given all the damage amp abilities we have and enemy damage should be more linear. Power creep is a rather pointless variable long as enemies are made of paper. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerikx Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 10 hours ago, trst said: *snip* We will just have to agree to disagree. As by your logic: "They were playable before so they don't need it." The " ___ could be killed with ___ so there's no need for __." arguments are foolhardy strawmans impo. Enemy A can be killed with a Lato so there's no need to use other weapons. Guess we should stop adding new weapons. Content ___ can be cleared with a modless Excalibur so why bother adding new frames and mods? Everything we have is here, is functional, and was done in the past so there's no need to improve things. Improvement = Bad, just leave it as is. 😮💨 And if say DE did merge an Augment into the ability. DE absolutely does not need to replace the Augment. Augment cost next to nothing and upgrade for next to nothing so there's even a refund script would be worthless. And while there is validity in saying: Players choose to make an Augment mandatory. When the change is an improvement, and not just a magical one, but a NIGHT and DAY improvement then that's saying something. Using Nekros... Desecrate's augment alters his gameplay in 0 capacity beyond making the ability useable. IE: You can actually mod to make him playable not mod (and gear) to try (in vain) and desperately hold onto your energy. Despoil is an outright fix for Nekros and the fact the community has let DE avoid making it a buff to Desecrate is honestly insane at this point. But by your logic it's fine for Nekros to be scavenging for energy the entire mission. Stand there and try not to die while your team plays the "Starve Nekros of energy" mini-games. I guess Loki's Decoy works fine too. Cause it successfully absorbs 1 single bullet. No need to fix it. Works perfectly. As for Augment slots... Debatable on power creep. I admit that AI can see how on some specific frames it can be considered a pathway to power creep. But those same frames are already subject to power creep the moment anything gets added. Probably cause they actually have good design. All the power creep in the world won't make Caliban (the new Yareli...which is...impressive...who'd have thought Yareli would have someone to look down upon?) good. Why? Cause he's fundamentally broken from the ground up. Augments for Caliban would need to completely change his entire kit. So what...Caliban players should have to equip 4 augments so he's useable outside of memes? Caliban is an entirely different topic. Let's not speak of that hot mess. Honestly, Caliban needs to be deleted from the game and rebuilt from the concept stage on up. Now an Augment Slot on Revenant or Saryn.... Yeah...that's some apocalypse level power creep S#&$.... However, I firmly stand behind encouraging players to make use of Augment Mods. A slot or Helminth infusion system achieves that as players don't feel punished by using the augments. (My Frost has no room for his augments and his abilities feel very lackluster without Chilling Globe or Icy Avalanche.) Personally... I'd rather we be able to infuse augments, permanently upgrading an ability (with the ability to remove or switch out the upgrade for a form of a fee) and freeing up a mod slot versus an Augment Slot. Making them more like Arcane/Exilus Adapters instead of mods. In my personal opinion, if 90% of the Augments in game weren't bandaids/fixes, then and only then would I want a dedicated Augment Slot. IE: The slot would have a true and legitimate use versus: "We make bad decisions. Here's a fix to your Warframe, but to use it you lose a mod slot. What can we say? We're salty you didn't like the base version of the frame. But we've decided to give you a slot cause...new management and we're less salty now." If we could upgrade Frost's kit with his augments, Frost would actually be able to look at the closed door to the room containing the fading memory of the time when Gara's distant shadow had passed through if he could have his augments be in his kit. Instead he just sits outside in absolute squalor, letting gnats bite him, hoping his passive might actually proc, and when it does, that it actually does more than merely cool the gnats off during a mid-summer's day. I digress... Frost's kit triggers me.... Maybe this could be how DE could rework the Helminth Invigoration system. Remove its current function, make it a Helminth Infusion system for augments. Allowing folks to customize their Warframes even further. Infuse 1, 2, or all of the augments. With each infusion (like Kuva) costing more and more each time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider_enigma Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 augments hsould have been added as helmeth upgrades, and should have changed how much energy the powers used and some need a nurf in numbers not in function... we dont need more chroma vex armor or eclipse changes that change the formulas entirely 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dairaion Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-24 at 6:08 PM, Aerikx said: True but let's be honest, let's be Real honest... A LOT of the Augment are bandaids to many frames and need to be reworked and the current Augment merged into the actual ability. Fatal Teleport, Serene Storm (Yes it's powerful but his ability should be that way to begin with), Chilling Globe, Icy Avalanche, Biting Frost, Furious Javelin, Hall of Malevolence, Phoenix Renewal, Infiltrate... I can go on... At least 25% if not 50% of the augments in game are bandaids for frames. They should just be merged. Until that happens I'll always disagree with the "It's an alternate way to play." Argument. While yes that was the intention/concept. The final product came out very, very, different. This guy plays frames that don't function without nuke builds or ones that require a ton of plat in mods to get correct, This man is a ally. On 2024-02-24 at 5:34 PM, RyllusPurple said: yes no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dairaion Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-24 at 6:27 PM, trst said: There has literally not been a single compelling argument for how any augments are bandaids. All of those augments either enable different gameplay options and/or serve as ways to min-max a specific ability beyond what regular modding can do. Saying they should be innate is no different, while just as nonsensical, as saying that all power strength mods should be innate. The only exceptions at all are the few augments that're genuinely too weak and unimpactful to justify a slot into any build. Things like Resonating Quake, Afterburn, or Mind Freak that tried to buff underwhelming abilities by only adding an underwhelming amount of damage onto them. In these situations the augments themselves need reworks/buffs instead of being rolled into the frame for no reason. The augments were devised as bandaids, they became sidegrades, now that newframe is the strongest warframe (with exceptions) they're at best a distraction at worst a piece of a game braking nuke build, put them in the helminth were they can be treated as endgame and balanced accordingly. On 2024-02-24 at 7:01 PM, Aerikx said: Oh? I'mma stop you right there. If there's exceptions then that means... Ah...thank you for answering yourself and providing a compelling argument for me. You named a few that would have made my list but the list is EXTENSIVE...as .. Couldn't have said it better myself. If an Augment is MANDATORY on a Frame then that is a problem. Additionally and I'm literally quoting DE when I say: "We're releasing some new augment mods for some frames. These should address some areas where players find a few frames lacking." Like...they even say it on the devstreams. Seeing as we don't have an Augment Slot (another strange hill DE has chosen to die on...) Then it's honestly ridiculous that players have to sacrifice to fix a frame. What I'd give for Helminth to have a "Upgrade" feature where you permanently fuse an Augment to a Warframe's ability. But it costs a fully ranked augment, some resources, and some unique bonding agent or infusion you have to craft/attain. There....the players can fix the frames. This man is a ally. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dairaion Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 12 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said: Just because there's abilities that are bad it doesn't excuse the implementation of an augment slot, there's still frames that need reworks or buffs that's a separate issue. Yes we already kill everything that just shows how unnecessary it is, you just want to see bigger numbers, people are not suddenly going to pick up Valkyr with an augment slot they'll just get their meta frame and put more strength, duration or range on the freed slot 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aruquae Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-24 at 6:49 PM, Kaiga said: All of these frames are brought into meta strength with augments, so yes, they are being held up by the augment mods, i.e. a bandaid. We can debate every one if you like, there's more i haven't mentioned too. Garuda? Garuda of all things? In my roughly 6 years of pure Garuda gameplay, I have never once thought she ever needed/had a band aid augment. I am willing to debate because I got no clue what’s considered a “band aid augment” that brings Garuda to “meta strength.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dairaion Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 6 hours ago, Aruquae said: Garuda? Garuda of all things? In my roughly 6 years of pure Garuda gameplay, I have never once thought she ever needed/had a band aid augment. I am willing to debate because I got no clue what’s considered a “band aid augment” that brings Garuda to “meta strength.” A Band Aid Augment is a Augment that allows warframes which have been superseded in playstyle function by either newer unbalanced frames or frames that when paired with a new or reworked mods have similar powers that are now more effective effective in a way that only works for them mechanically, thus requiring a Augment to bring them to or close to parity with the mentioned more effective frames. You may be playing garuda in a way that other people don't which is why you don't experience the issues. Now you may argue that they should rebuild their frame or play more like you, but that is only encouraging nuke builds and pushing people towards playing the game for reasons other than fun, which ruins the game as it's not meant to be competitive. Everybody plays the game differently, with different weapons, in different ways. If we can accept the existence of augments and the existence of endgame content there is no reason we shouldn't be able to feed a maxed Augment to Audrey and have it built into the warframe of your choice in return for a tauforged, and some resources. I'd take it over having rock candy because the rock candy might be stronger but it doesn't give the same oomf as digivolving your Suezo into a Mewtwo, think Epic Leveling from DnD. i don't want a generic upgrade i want a rhino upgrade. There's precedence for my idea too as you have to unlock a number of specialized mod slots to get free space for specialized mods, i want that for augments but tied to the archon shard slots. You could even argue that normally conflicting Augments should be allowed, like if someone wanted to spend 2 of their 5 slots to build a Atlas to have Titanic Rumbler and Rumbled Then why not? It's cool, limited to post taushard, requires a sacrifice, and makes someone who might main Atlas feel like their Atlas is special. I would however argue that as a balance you shouldn't be able to do it with abilities from other warframes, those should be limited to taking a mod slot to stop warframes from becoming too samey. It would help balance out the warframes with weapons in general and help make nuke builds a curiosity and pull alot of people back to frames they used to play alot but haven't in a while. In addition it stops us from asking for whole reworks, which tend to make someone angry when they lose a thing they like, you know like Hydroid's Stealth Puddle. Like think about it, Hydroid's rework was turning him into a nukebuild and altered his thematic playstyle and replaced it with something that doesn't really make sense. He's the physical embodiment of the ocean not a toxic waste plant, like sure you could argue salt water is corrosive but he's pirate themed not oil drilling platform themed. he was about sneaking up on people and drowning them then when S#!t hit the fan he unleashed horror of the deep sea upon the poor bastards that made the foolish mistake of cornering him. Right now though, he's that but without the increased stealth from the puddle, which inherently forces you to be more offensive, and the corrosion aspect is there to make playing him more about the weapons he's using than playing him. imagine if instead of rebuilding him to work with weapons they just build him off of his theme by giving Undertow it's augment's healing ability, Tidal wave it's healing ability, and kept corrosive to tempest. Then Hydroid would go from being a stealth and evasion warframe to a warframe that could second as a healer for his teammates, wouldn't that be neat, endgame Hydroid is Healdroid. But instead people argued for something to be meta, and we got Acid Man now with Action Tricorn (not for sale in California). If the Augments were waiting there to be slotted into the warframe At the cost of a Tauforged and some resources he would be a entirely different frame right now with some of what was in the rework due to Corroding Barrage being Slottable in a shard slot and some new things no one was really using but they might and that thing could be individually balanced unlike Shards and a entire Warframe. I think that it would really help alot of the older Trope frames and do so in a way that doesn't crap on what they were designed to be and how people were using them and it would allow powers to be balanced easier because they aren't built in you have options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-23 at 7:53 PM, trst said: What you're describing as a "failure" of the augment system is the entire point of the modding system itself. You've made the choice to build/play a frame in such a way that you can't afford to slot an augment. Therefor the modding system has forced you to make a decision of running your specific build vs running a new build vs altering your build to accommodate an augment. That decision making step is the entire reason we have all the mods/upgrades we do. I agree with this for augments that actually augment the Frame and abilities. Which is thankfully most of them, but we still get the occasional "augment" that's just "make this ability function like it was supposed to in the first place" (Iron Shrapnel is the most popular example, and I remember Larva having lots of issues before Larva Burst was added) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) On 2024-02-23 at 10:53 PM, trst said: What you're describing as a "failure" of the augment system is the entire point of the modding system itself. You've made the choice to build/play a frame in such a way that you can't afford to slot an augment. Therefor the modding system has forced you to make a decision of running your specific build vs running a new build vs altering your build to accommodate an augment. That decision making step is the entire reason we have all the mods/upgrades we do. Other players may choose to incorporate an augment into their existing build or may even make an entirely new build centered around the augment itself. Meanwhile you and those who will choose to not use the new augments have made the decision to not utilize those mods. And making the system one where you just slap the augment onto a frame for free entirely removes that decision making step. The problem with this response, is that you're pretending that the game wasn't designed around metas and power levels that are just simply ludicrous. People find out ways of getting absolutely insane damage by putting certain mods on, and now DE *must* balance the game assuming players are doing that, otherwise the content is too easy for anybody who looks up what the "best (x) build" is. Mods are not a choice. Mods are a barrier to entry. You either mod your gear correctly, or your damage output will suck. What mods do you put on your weapon? You either know how to mod correctly, or you look up a guide, or you throw anything on and do less than half the damage you should. See all of those augment mods? Pity you have to ruin a good build to stick one of those on. hey, maybe you're a gunslinger who loves to reload their weapon fast, and reload often, so maybe Fast Hands and Ammo Drum are your favorite mods. The modding system gives you the "choice" to use those mods. But you'll also be dead last in damage done on every mission, too.... Edited February 26 by Xylia 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_GoodLuck_ Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-26 at 2:12 AM, spider_enigma said: augments hsould have been added as helmeth upgrades, and should have changed how much energy the powers used and some need a nurf in numbers not in function... we dont need more chroma vex armor or eclipse changes that change the formulas entirely Helminth is the worst system DE ever made, they nerf all popular abilities. I'd rather stick to augments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 minutes ago, Xylia said: Mods are not a choice. Mods are a barrier to entry. You either mod your gear correctly, or your damage output will suck. What mods do you put on your weapon? You either know how to mod correctly, or you look up a guide, or you throw anything on and do less than half the damage you should. I 100% agree with this, it's not like running multishot is a "choice" because no it really isn't, similarly you can either run certain augments or have a certain ability be completely useless and as long as this interaction exists the argument for an augment slot will always be valid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quxier Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 2024-02-24 at 4:32 AM, Dairaion said: what if we instead of using the mod system the augments are items we can feed to the helminth and have it graft onto that specific warframe in return for resources similar to the sentient rock candy? So instead of 1 mod that e.g. cost 20 plat, you want to buy/farm whole frames when new "augment" is introduced? Nope nope nope. On 2024-02-24 at 4:32 AM, Dairaion said: But why would we use them? Either they're for frames we don't have or we do have them and they're built for a specific form of gameplay that losing one of our current mods would ruin. Soooooooooo... get a frame if you don't have. You want to use frame and augment it somehow not other way around. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Waeleto said: I 100% agree with this, it's not like running multishot is a "choice" because no it really isn't, similarly you can either run certain augments or have a certain ability be completely useless and as long as this interaction exists the argument for an augment slot will always be valid Also, it kind of stinks that MOST of the "best" or "valid" mods are purely stat changes and offer zero difference to your gameplay whatsoever. Sticking more Toxin on your weapon doesn't change how you shoot. Sticking more Multishot on your weapon doesn't change how you shoot, heck it doesn't even have a cool display graphic when you shoot that I know of. The mods that WOULD offer gameplay changes, are the ones you can't afford to stick on there because you need to overcome ludicrous stat barriers. I used to say that Serration was the single worst mod they ever released, bar none. Edited February 26 by Xylia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 7 minutes ago, Xylia said: Also, it kind of stinks that MOST of the "best" or "valid" mods are purely stat changes and offer zero difference to your gameplay whatsoever. Sticking more Toxin on your weapon doesn't change how you shoot. Sticking more Multishot on your weapon doesn't change how you shoot, heck it doesn't even have a cool display graphic when you shoot that I know of. The mods that WOULD offer gameplay changes, are the ones you can't afford to stick on there because you need to overcome ludicrous stat barriers. I used to say that Serration was the single worst mod they ever released, bar none. Not gonna lie, that's why I like the new Radiation mods that DE released, especially the Primary/Secondary ones. That extra Reload Speed on my Quellor was something I never could have reasonably modded in without a Riven stat, but thanks to the Radiated Reload mod I get to keep half of a 60/60 and get almost a Primed Fast Hands worth of reload speed on it. That's what we need more of, double action mods that have less raw benefits of pure damage with secondary stats that are generally helpful. We already had some like that, things like Chilling Reload and Wildfire exist and I use those when I need an element but a 60/60 wouldn't benefit as much, but personally speaking we need more "side grades" in Warframe imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aruquae Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 hours ago, Dairaion said: A Band Aid Augment is a Augment that allows warframes which have been superseded in playstyle function by either newer unbalanced frames or frames that when paired with a new or reworked mods have similar powers that are now more effective effective in a way that only works for them mechanically, thus requiring a Augment to bring them to or close to parity with the mentioned more effective frames. You may be playing garuda in a way that other people don't which is why you don't experience the issues. Now you may argue that they should rebuild their frame or play more like you, but that is only encouraging nuke builds and pushing people towards playing the game for reasons other than fun, which ruins the game as it's not meant to be competitive. Seems like you're confusing band-aid with playstyle defining. An example of an augment that's playstyle defining would be Voruna's augment, but a band aid mod would be Equinox's energy transfer. Basically band aid mods are things that should've been innate in the first place. 4 hours ago, Dairaion said: I think that it would really help alot of the older Trope frames and do so in a way that doesn't crap on what they were designed to be and how people were using them and it would allow powers to be balanced easier because they aren't built in you have options. While I agree with almost your entire viewpoint on this.. I think you confused band aid augment mods with playstyle defining augment mods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trst Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 hours ago, Xylia said: The problem with this response, is that you're pretending that the game wasn't designed around metas and power levels that are just simply ludicrous. People find out ways of getting absolutely insane damage by putting certain mods on, and now DE *must* balance the game assuming players are doing that, otherwise the content is too easy for anybody who looks up what the "best (x) build" is. Mods are not a choice. Mods are a barrier to entry. You either mod your gear correctly, or your damage output will suck. What mods do you put on your weapon? You either know how to mod correctly, or you look up a guide, or you throw anything on and do less than half the damage you should. See all of those augment mods? Pity you have to ruin a good build to stick one of those on. hey, maybe you're a gunslinger who loves to reload their weapon fast, and reload often, so maybe Fast Hands and Ammo Drum are your favorite mods. The modding system gives you the "choice" to use those mods. But you'll also be dead last in damage done on every mission, too.... Of course mods are a necessity and there's some minimum requirement to how things are modded based on the content. But even within said requirements there's plenty of choice to be had and augments are always an optional choice. Even if an augment makes a frame considerably more powerful it's still not mandatory for any of the content we have on offer. Also being dead last in damage means nothing if you're actually killing enemies as overkill damage doesn't do anything. And given how overkill weapon damage can be there is room in there for fun/utility mods. Plus even if you take out too much damage it's in that gap where damage buffs actually matter as then you can pretty much mod a gun however you want while making up the different with your frame. And if you take it too far there's then the option of putting the build on a weapon with better base stats. Oh, and DE absolutely does not design the game around metas, at least not in the way you're describing. Content itself never requires a meta setup to complete. However they have been forced to address the meta by very slowly creeping in mechanics to combat it like Nullifiers, ability resistance, status immunity, damage attenuation, overguard, etc. And while they're there to counter metas they absolutely don't require a meta setup to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graavarg Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) On 2024-02-26 at 2:48 PM, Aruquae said: I am willing to debate because I got no clue what’s considered a “band aid augment” that brings Garuda to “meta strength.” Some Warframe players are mentally ruled by "meta". Any and all mechanisms and content is thus evaluated from a "power" perspective. And more power is not only "better", it is the only meaningful goal. There is nothing wrong with meta as a concept, as it is just a concept used to measure damage output, and tinkering with your damage output is a core part of the game. Since actually measuring damage output is beyond most meta-mentals, the concept is also a bit fluid. But correctly used and taking all variables into account the meta concept is a neutral and valid measure. The problems arise when players use the meta-concept as if it were the core central goal of Warframe. Which actually rather silly, since gaming is about fun. Of course, you could argue that measuring who has the longer... I mean, who can dish out the most damage is the most fun some players are able to have. And we all need some goal, otherwise we are just existing and nothing actually matters, on this speck of dust flowing through an incomprehensible large universe. However, the only really valid reason for meta beside the tinkering process is achieving enough efficiency for "farming". But as you don't need 9999999 damage to kill something with 5000 EHP there is actually no need to go for "the most" damage output, rather you achieve your most efficient farming by choosing a setup with "enough damage" and the "highest fun factor". Since once you are able to dish out "enough damage" the the real farming limiting factor is for how long you can stand... I mean for how long you are able to "enjoy" your farming experience. And it is a bit unclear if killing enemies a microsecond quicker actually adds all that more enjoyment to all those tedious hours, that is enough to actually matter... Meta freaks have this urge to disrespect everything that is not "meta" (it is the core human behavior of trying to elevate yourself and what you do by belittling everything else), so they have introduced their own concepts into the Warframe lingo. Like "MR fodder", equipment that generates so little "power" it's only use is for acquiring more MR. And like "band aid augment", which adds "power" to a warframe that in their opinion is otherwise underperforming. Meta used as an all-encompassing goal is reminiscent of "social standing" in the 18th century, which was also an all-encompassing, completely ridiculous and basically meaningless pursuit. That some humans, even so, made into their main reason for existing. "Band aid augment" is as meaningful as a socialite's comment on someone else's dress, back in the day when that was the most important thing there was (or was it, ever? 😉). Edited February 28 by Graavarg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pragmatic_2015 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 2024-02-25 at 10:01 AM, Aerikx said: Seeing as we don't have an Augment Slot (another strange hill DE has chosen to die on...) Then it's honestly ridiculous that players have to sacrifice to fix a frame. What I'd give for Helminth to have a "Upgrade" feature where you permanently fuse an Augment to a Warframe's ability. But it costs a fully ranked augment, some resources, and some unique bonding agent or infusion you have to craft/attained. If DE won't give us a dedicated aug slot, this is the best way forward. Plus it will stimulate the economy by creating a need for augment mods from syndicates that we aren't currently in. Plus I've been saying this for years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aruquae Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 hours ago, Graavarg said: Some Warframe players are mentally ruled by "meta". Any and all mechanisms and content is thus evaluated from a "power" perspective. And more power is not only "better", it is the only meaningful goal. There is nothing wrong with meta as a concept, as it is just a concept used to measure damage output, and tinkering with your damage output is a core part of the game. Since actually measuring damage output is beyond most meta-mentals, the concept is also a bit fluid. But correctly used and taking all variables into account the meta concept is a neutral and valid measure. The problems arise when players use the meta-concept as if it were the core central goal of Warframe. Which actually rather silly, since gaming is about fun. Of course, you could argue that measuring who has the longer... I mean, who can dish out the most damage is the most fun some players are able to have. And we all need some goal, otherwise we are just existing and nothing actually matters, on this speck of dust flowing through an incomprehensible large universe. However, the only really valid reason for meta beside the tinkering process is achieving enough efficiency for "farming". But as you don't need 9999999 damage to kill something with 5000 EHP there is actually no need to go for "the most" damage output, rather you achieve your most efficient farming by choosing a setup with "enough damage" and the "highest fun factor". Since once you are able to dish out "enough damage" the the real farming limiting factor is for how long you can stand... I mean for how long you are able to "enjoy" your farming experience. And it is a bit unclear if killing enemies a microsecond quicker actually adds all that more enjoyment to all those tedious hours, that is enough to actually matter... Meta freaks have this urge to disrespect everything that is not "meta" (it is the core human behavior of trying to elevate yourself and what you do by belittling everything else), so they have introduced their own concepts into the Warframe lingo. Like "MR fodder", equipment that generates so little "power" it's only use is for acquiring more MR. And like "band aid augment", which adds "power" to a warframe that in their opinion is otherwise underperforming. Meta used as an all-encompassing goal is reminiscent of "social standing" in the 18th century, which was also an all-encompassing, completely ridiculous and basically meaningless pursuit. That some humans, even so, made into their main reason for existing. "Band aid augment" is as meaningful as a socialite's comment on someone else's dress, back in the day when that was the most important thing there was (or was it, ever? 😉). That was a good read. You left nothing out of it. 10/10 definition for “meta slaves” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dairaion Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 On 2024-02-26 at 5:49 PM, quxier said: So instead of 1 mod that e.g. cost 20 plat, you want to buy/farm whole frames when new "augment" is introduced? Nope nope nope. Soooooooooo... get a frame if you don't have. You want to use frame and augment it somehow not other way around. I think. No, max strength Augments are convertable into a item that can be slotted in place of a Tau Shard, which act as they would normally, but don't apply to Helminth abilities inserted into a frame. this eliminates the limited nature of two poorly thought out concepts, Tau Shards (which are MinMax Garbage), and the suggestion of augment slots, which will just make the mod screen look even worst and is a bad idea that will just lead to new players thinking it's okay to spend 100 plat to open up a new warframe for a nuke build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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