i feel like dante is too good ?

[Venus-Venera]

Am 31.3.2024 um 19:06 schrieb Prof-Dante:

Every Youtuber's Thumbnail on Dante nowadays: "PLEASE DON'T NERF THIS DE"
Plus, all these people asking for Dante nerfs, and complaining about how he's "too strong".

Now let me ask you a few things:

• Do you press one button to do everything Dante can do? or by being completely AFK?
• Do you manage to keep your overguard up all the time at very high levels?
• Did you encounter a bug with Dante that causes massive frame rate drops?
• Is your "OP" Dante capable of killing all enemies without any long set ups?

Most of these questions, I am 100% certain they will be a no, This Community man, like...where were you when Kullervo got his buff? Bro can clear entire rows with a 1, 3 combo...and Dante can't even fully benefit from the radial aoe on Tragedy.

 

Is it just about new players? because Dante is nothing special. I have dozens of warframes that make everything better. and his weapon is very bad.

[ajwalker65]

No nerf for Dante. He's a great frame.

I could see putting a cap on some things, like how Rhino skin lasts x amount of damage and has to be recast could be the same with Dante's overguard.

Dante is too much fun to have a nerf, his whole "wizarding" mechanic is such a breath of fresh air for the game. 

[Joezone619]

On 2024-03-31 at 1:06 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Do you press one button to do everything Dante can do? or by being completely AFK?

Pretty much yeah, 3-3-4-repeat.

On 2024-03-31 at 1:06 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Do you manage to keep your overguard up all the time at very high levels?

With ease.

On 2024-03-31 at 1:06 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Did you encounter a bug with Dante that causes massive frame rate drops?

Are you talking about nerfs or bugs? Its a no in any case but this has seemingly nothing to do with your point.

On 2024-03-31 at 1:06 PM, Prof-Dante said:

Is your "OP" Dante capable of killing all enemies without any long set ups?

Yes, in several ways.

 

Dante needs a nerf imo, what was DE thinking when making this dude have so much overguard, Especially with the double light 4th.

Edited April 2 by Joezone619

[Crispyframe]

I agree and think Dante is fine. Dante is my comfort pick when I don’t want to kill as fast as Saryn lol. I think people either forget or never experienced whole map nuking. 

[Kaiga]

Ah yes, because taking strong frames and making them worse until everything is equally mediocre makes for a balanced game.

How about we buff some of the many bad frames, instead of just nerfing one or two good ones and calling it a day?

[Raikh]

I'm wondering if people suffer from short term memory or just don't know whats in the game.

Dante is a strong Frame, no doubt, but he isn't outrageously so. He isn't the best nuker, especially not because he needs setup and Dark verse as a means to that is locked to a 50 degrees cone in front of him, that also has less range than Tragedy. He does what an Ability caster needs to do, nerfing that would just make people turn him into a weapon platform with fancy Overguard.

Overguard, especially in combination with Shield Gating is incredibly powerful and comfy. But thats nothing new, nor something unique to him. And the amount he gets doesn't necessarily change a whole lot, its more about what Overguard does inherently.

In a sense you could call him "Octavia Light". Where he has limtied nuking, Octavia has infinitely scaling AoE, where he provides Overguard, Octavia provides Stealth. Octavia also has a Taunt and provides Damage Buffs to Weapons on top. Dante is more comfy to use because you don't have the rhythm mini game but I'd also call him less powerful, somewhat of a trade-off.

I'd be very careful when asking for nerfs. This game isn't being actively balanced. Tons of things are broken and can trivialize the game in a number of ways. Generally you will have a better experience if you have a good selection among the most powerful things, rather than with just a few things staying up there forever. And if Dante catches a nerf that actually hurts and makes him less satisfactory in this short time frame where something may actually happen, he likely won't be getting any attention for the next few years, as sad as that is.

[PublikDomain]

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

It's the same survey, and it's not your survey. You've just interpreted and portrayed it in a way I don't agree with/condone.

I mean, yeah. The survey says something obvious and it doesn't agree with you. So instead of accepting the reality that this:

Is in fact smaller than this:

You make excuses and attack the data and make claims that you can't back up.

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

So we're too powerful, but buffing old frames to match modern expectations of power is "horizontal progression"?

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

And our weapons are too strong, but adding new variants with (at times significantly) buffed stats is just DE giving us the same exact power again?

When it aligns these frames and weapons horizontally in power? Yes. that is indeed what horizontal progression is. Kuva and Tenet weapons come from the same place and are generally on the same horizontal level. Primes are as good as Primes. Frames are as good as frames. Pets are, ideally, as good as other pets. Did you know that DE just recently revamped pets (again) to try and fix this (again)? And they'll have to do it again!

There are many ways to achieve the things like a level playing field DE so often says they want to achieve:

Quote

We want there to be lots of options instead of one ‘perfect’ option.

Quote

Not all weapons are built equal, but ideally there are several answers to each query, so that Tenno can make their own choices from a variety of options and keep things fresh.

Quote

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

Quote

With the current path Catchmoon weapons are on, it was time to bring Catchmoon weapons to a more reasonable power level, while still keeping them effective.

They can buff underperformers up to the new higher standard, or they can reduce the overperformers to the current lower standard, or they can try something in between. At the end of the day it achieves the exact same thing: a level, horizontal playing field where there are many good, varied options to choose from and not as much garbage to throw away. And as you've identified, the method DE chooses tends to be more often than not to try and buff their way out of it. That's the cause and consequence of the game's powercreep. They introduce something new, it pushes the envelope, and now they have to buff the entire rest of the game again. And again. And again. And if they dare nerf something obviously overperforming, they get death threats and review bombs (see: Wukong changes). And where has that gotten us? Now everyone is invincible and has infinite energy and kills everything instantly and we can't play together and the game can't even spawn enough enemies on some platforms. #winning

18 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

The point you're missing is it's subjective. Like your idea of balance is not everyone else's. And balance, comprises of both buffing and nerfing, and the question was directed neither way. So it was open to interpretation.

Yes? But it's also asking a pretty simple question. For example, do you value cooperation? Yes. The playerbase values whatever subjective idea of cooperation it has. And unless you're suggesting that a statistically significant number of people read "do you value cooperation" and thought "Ah, yes! Cooperation! That means playing alone! 5/5!".... well, a lot of people probably do value cooperation. Same with gear balance (hint: balance), customization (in Warframe???), and difficult content (Sorties, Raids, Arbitrations, SP, Archon Hunts, Deep Archimedia, etc.). But this is something you personally don't agree with/condone, so it must be wrong!

Edited April 2 by PublikDomain

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

They can buff underperformers up to the new higher standard, or they can reduce the overperformers to the current lower standard, or they can try something in between. At the end of the day it achieves the exact same thing: a level, horizontal playing field where there are many good, varied options to choose from and not as much garbage to throw away. And as you've identified, the method DE chooses tends to be more often than not to try and buff their way out of it. That's the cause and consequence of the game's powercreep. They introduce something new, it pushes the envelope, and now they have to buff the entire rest of the game again. And again. And again. And if they dare nerf something obviously overperforming, they get death threats and review bombs (see: Wukong changes). And where has that gotten us?

Great comment.

I should add though that the primary discussion from this thread is accidentally an observation that this design philosophy has segregated players based on when they started playing and what they expect from the game. Most of the players I surround myself with are still looking forward to the things DE has always done and will never stop doing (trying new mechanics and always looking for new flavors of content to further their account). However, I do also see a ton of players that approach Warframe like Cookie Clicker. Both approaches are totally valid to have within the context of the game's history, but the two groups often clash as they are just different generations of Warframe players that enjoy the game in vastly different ways. The old game is still here, just fragmented across many years of updates. 

Most historical powercreep (such as Polarize Mag, Miasma Saryn, Maiming Strike, Trinity Link Nuke, etc.) are seen as examples of today's problems "always being there", but the reality has been that there is always context to that strength relative to where the game was at during that time. Maiming Strike was broken within the context of how melee worked back then and the general nature of missions. We now have Khora, Tenet Envoy, Ocucor, Kuva Bramma, Kuva Ogris, and so many options that fundamentally equal or even exceed Maiming Strike or similar issues of the past, especially since enemy scaling was massively nerfed back in 2020. Sure, the number on the screen may be smaller than Maiming Strike was, but the practical mission effectiveness has far exceeded those times.

The broader retrospection of Warframe's content is that there is more accessibility and appeal to the arguably more corrosive mechanics that have slowly made their way into the game. I notice this all the time when having discussions with players who have opinions rooted in a misunderstanding of both precedent and current functionality (Eclipse being a recent example, not not the only time). And no, this isn't completely on them. The game has encouraged players in many ways to ignore intricacies in mechanics to stack more digestible bonuses. More often than not we see Base Damage, Status Spread, and Critical Chance/Damage as bonuses. That's because they are really easy to understand. They aren't Damage Vulnerability, Faction Damage, or other much older damage bonuses. Then take Damage Attenuation into account, and the game discourages players from really pushing weapons, because your damage becomes homogenized across your loadout and squad unless you've learned how to bypass the mechanic entirely.

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Now everyone is invincible and has infinite energy and kills everything instantly and we can't play together and the game can't even spawn enough enemies on some platforms. #winning

This is by far the saddest part, especially as someone on PC who has felt that sometimes even PC spawns are rough (compared to arsenal power), and I have to realize that console players just get it even worse.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I still don't have him yet, a few hours away. 

That being said, 2 general things. I was kind of getting tired of the last few Warframes releases being met with apathy, calls to buff, or peoples feedback being "Why would i use this new Warframe when Saryn, Mesa, Wukong, Revenant exist?", even when I personally thought the released Warframe, was great, unique and adequate in power, specifically including Qorvex (more on the tanky side), Dagath (DPS side), Kullervo (Melee especially, but gun DPS too), Citrine (Support side), Voruna, Styanax, Gyre as well. Especially Gyre). Its been a while since I thought a Warframe on release was just whelming/underwhelming. 

So a part of me, is actually kind of enjoying people un-ironically saying stuff like, "Well he isn't Saryn but..." in a more serious way. 

Its also amusing to me, since a few days ago there were a thread about how most of Warframes most powerful Warframes are female, so getting a new powerhouse male Warframe... I also play Warframe solo a lot, and I tend to play a whole variety of different Warframes. Bit of a vacuum at times. Often when I play PUB, whatever Warframe I tend to use, tends to over perform. Which I imagine a lot of people who post in the forums also can relate to. Like when you have every tool in the game, but also think and reflect on the game a lot the way people who also post in Forums about it do... compared to a lot of PUBS... 

Like i might change my mind when I get hands on, but in another way, don't necessarily view him as being relatively "OP" is necessarily an issue, unless his pick rate is also crazy high and he invalidates a lot of other peoples experiences, in general ways other Warframes can't compete with, but that in it self is a tricky subject, since a lot of builds/combinations of Warframes, weapons, other tools, can be extremely proficient... We also just got Shard Fusions this update too... 

[MutoManiac]

Nah, he’d be too good only if he could fly.

[PublikDomain]

51 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Great comment.

I should add though that the primary discussion from this thread is accidentally an observation that this design philosophy has segregated players based on when they started playing and what they expect from the game. Most of the players I surround myself with are still looking forward to the things DE has always done and will never stop doing (trying new mechanics and always looking for new flavors of content to further their account). However, I do also see a ton of players that approach Warframe like Cookie Clicker. Both approaches are totally valid to have within the context of the game's history, but the two groups often clash as they are just different generations of Warframe players that enjoy the game in vastly different ways. The old game is still here, just fragmented across many years of updates.

That's definitely an interesting way to think about it. Though I don't think that the new and old generation need to clash. The Entrati labs content has been incredibly well-received, as was the Zariman content. DE's been doing a really good job recently, during a period where the game is getting progressively harder - not easier. We have the highest-level starchart content we've ever had, and despite what the "power fantasy" crowd says they prefer the game's doing better than it's done in a very long time. This is also the same game balance certain people say they don't want, just from one of the opposite sides of the coin.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

9 hours ago, Corvid said:

So long as you agree to be quiet if he does end up getting nerfed.

Okay then. How about Revenant? A frame that can literally shrug off attacks from level 9999 enemies and can even give invincibility to the entire squad with an augment from a single ability cast. Or maybe Octavia who can twerk her way to level cap without ever needing to use her weapons.

If Dante does end up getting nerfed, being quiet is exactly the opposite of what I'll be doing. I'll be figuratively breaking down DE's doors to call them out on their ineptitude. Especially when the huge outliers that I've mentioned are left in the game as they are. 

Edited April 2 by Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[Ocerkin]

"my pc cant handle the graphics settings i have so nerf the new frame into the dirt so no one plays him anymore, please?"

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

7 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I severely underestimated the amount of overguard you can put on Dante...
I need to build him for some ability strength pronto

I'll be happy to link my build if you want to use it. Just to note, you have to cast Triumph a few times to reach the Overguard cap. Also the negative efficiency can be easily remedied by Tome mods. No Helminth required.

 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

On 2024-03-31 at 2:42 PM, EternaldrkMako said:

what are people gonna ask to nerf now? 

Aoe

Chain weapons 

Beams 

Melee

DR abilities

Dmg boost abilities 

Specters 

Ammo pizzas

Health pizzas

Shield pizzas

Rolling guard

Brief respite 

Arcane (pick one)

Hunter munitions

Multishot

CC abilities

Melee 

Single target weapons

Spoiler mode

Augment X is overpowered 

Mesa

Every frame is overpowered and needs a nerf except the one(s) i like 

Literally at least 50 warframes need nerfs

Literally at least 20 frames need their entire kit thrown out and overhauled

Nerf damage output in general 

Nerf survivability in general

Nerf Utility in general

Nerf GPU's capable of a framerate above 30

Sound design too good needs Nerf 

 

 

[Zahnrad]

Speaking of. Did Warding Halo get nerfed at some point?

I have two seperate Nezha Primes I built, and the one modded for Warding Halo I tried again but noticed I seem to be unable to apply Warding Halo on certain things now.

 

It started when I noticed I could no longer apply it to my own Sentinel (it used to be possible but was a bit tedious to do)

Then I noticed I could no longer apply it to certain Objectives. Did some Narmer Bounties since I still haven't farmed Caliban and I couldn't apply it to things like Grineer Vault Defense targets on Cetus, nor could I apply it to Hacked Coildrives or the Hacked Narmer Drone in Fortuna.

 

I bring this up because I've noticed on newer Warframes, Warframes that can apply buffs to others, seem to be unable to apply them onto Non-Warframe targets which feels like it's taking away the Support aspect of...Support abilities. I can understand it on warframes like Octavia where it's contextual and requires active engagement. But for example even with Dante, I cannot apply Overshields to anything that isn't another Warframe player. (I expected to at least have a highly reduced version, like 500 Overshield or something)

Edited April 2 by Zahnny

[CoffeeElemental]

15 минут назад, Zahnny сказал:

Then I noticed I could no longer apply it to certain Objectives.

It might have been nerfed when DE massively nerfed interactions of a list of abilities and defense objectives. It happened during Scarlet Spear if I recall (and I don't think the so-called 'nerf crowd™' asked for it).

[Zahnrad]

2 minutes ago, CoffeeElemental said:

It might have been nerfed when DE massively nerfed interactions of a list of abilities and defense objectives. It happened during Scarlet Spear if I recall (and I don't think the so-called 'nerf crowd™' asked for it).

Hmm...It worked after Scarlet Spear if I recall correctly.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, CoffeeElemental said:

It might have been nerfed when DE massively nerfed interactions of a list of abilities and defense objectives.

The change to Warding Halo happened with Whispers in the Wall.  My guess is it's a bug rather than a nerf.  

 

26 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

But for example even with Dante, I cannot apply Overshields to anything that isn't another Warframe player.

It  works on companions too.  At least his own--not sure about other players' companions.

[Zahnrad]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

It  works on companions too.  At least his own--not sure about other players' companions.

Ah, right.

I haven't built Dante myself yet, but I got him in Duviri, and found he couldn't support Excavators or Defense Targets. I forget you don't get a companion in Duviri.

[CoffeeElemental]

4 минуты назад, Zahnny сказал:

It worked after Scarlet Spear if I recall correctly.

Well, it was the first thing that came to mind, because the list of abilities that were nerfed back then was actually huge.

OR some completely unrelated stuff could just break the halo, you never know with this game.

[Prof-Dante]

10 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Pretty much yeah, 3-3-4-repeat.

With ease.

Are you talking about nerfs or bugs? Its a no in any case but this has seemingly nothing to do with your point.

Yes, in several ways.

 

Dante needs a nerf imo, what was DE thinking when making this dude have so much overguard, Especially with the double light 4th.

I should've known people would answer yes on every question, just to prove a point, no matter how dumb the answers may be.

[Slayer-.]

 

On 2024-04-01 at 6:42 AM, EternaldrkMako said:

what are people gonna ask to nerf now? 

The Stug. 

Spoiler

Because it kills steel path enemies by making them choke to death laughing at the damage the Stug does, well that's what happened when I took it into SP to test it. 

 

[Aruquae]

7 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

I'll be happy to link my build if you want to use it. Just to note, you have to cast Triumph a few times to reach the Overguard cap. Also the negative efficiency can be easily remedied by Tome mods. No Helminth required.

 

Dang, guess I gotta forma again. I’m going to try this out, thanks

[Aruquae]

On 2024-03-31 at 5:29 PM, Hypertion said:

i find it funny because they are complaining about what is actually something you can put on any frame via helminth... Garuda does the "slash proc Explosion" thing better with expedite suffering since she doesnt just combine all the slash proc damage into one hit, but can make a slash proc off of that hit...

 

it ramps up stupidly high and fast and can hit 1mil + with just a few casts.

Shhhhhhhh

Shhhhhhhhhhhh

SHHHHHHHHHHHH

Don’t spoil it, the Devs might hear you