i feel like dante is too good ?

[MrDugan]

11 hours ago, NovaLP said:

My best guess is that they'll prob put a light LoS check (like Dark Verse already has it) on Tragedy or something, it wouldn't destroy his damage output but hurt his kpm which would still be fine. But in return they need to adress the issues with overguard, since Dante has no energy regen for his team (unlike Styanax) he #*!%s players who run "on damage" effects for multiple reasons completely over.

DE has, hands down no questions zero hesitation, the absolute JANKIEST LOS code I have ever seen in any game, ever.  There are probably GameJam games and student projects with better line of sight mechanics than this game.  It does not function properly on a single frame that uses it.  Fire Blast, Whipclaw, you name it, I've used it and watched it not hit an enemy that was 99% uncovered.  If I could shoot that enemy with a gun, then the ability needs to hit.  It's so janky and so bad that people are still arguing over whether Dark Verse has LOS or not.  Because you can post video proof for either position and have it look entirely credible.  I have literally watched this argument happen, with both sides posting videos that the other could not explain, based on if they thought LOS was on the ability or not.  Until it actually functions, their LOS requirements need to be taken off every single thing that has them.  Certainly not added to a frame that doesn't need a nerf in the first place.

[PsychoGlory]

DE has a history in ruining warframes because of toxic players that do not really use those warframes.  Most do not even go to higher level content.  There should never should be nerfs in a game, only buffs.

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, OneOmniverse said:

It's disheartening to see developers yielding to the demands of a vocal minority

Dante was released on a 4-day weekend, I doubt anyone on the team besides Megan was even looking at the forums

Little history lesson for you: Styanax was nerfed six days after his release. As of this writing he holds the record, not Dante. And you know what the Styanax nerf was? Removed the ability to cast his 4th ability "Final Stand" multiple times in midair. That's it, that was it. If that's an indicator of things to come, THAT is the level of "nerf" you can expect from Dante

[chaotea]

Why are you complaining about a nerf that hasn't even happened yet. Hell, Reb even said they are only talking about it at the moment. Find out what the 'nerfs' are going to be first, as it may just be small scale things.

 

[Xenevier]

33 minutes ago, OneOmniverse said:

So the community has been abuzz with incessant calls for nerfs, flooding subreddits, forums, and social media channels. It's a constant barrage of "nerf this" and "nerf that." Now, amidst this atmosphere, another Warframe has fallen under the nerf spotlight. What's disheartening is that Dante, a newly introduced Warframe, is already facing adjustments within a remarkably short time, possibly less than a week. I had held DE in high regard, believing they would break away from the industry norm, but it appears they have succumbed to the same patterns as other companies.

One would assume that Dante underwent testing of his capabilities, before being made widely available to players. You even ensured multiple avenues for players to obtain Dante, catering to a broader player base. Releasing him for 750 platinum, roughly equivalent to $50, and offering an additional $15 pack,and on top of that made farming him easier than any other frames before.

This makes it three accessible options for players to invest in him two of which cost real money and you know people are going to buy it because it’s new and shiny which is what companies do but come on I thought you guys were different. It's disheartening to witness such swift implementation of a nerf, especially considering the significant financial gains already made.

This disappointing trend of releasing enticing content only to later nerf or remove features, after profiting extensively, seems to plague many companies today. Why can't these companies simply allow players to revel in the joy of feeling powerful in the game? It's worth noting that other Warframes like Nezha, Revenant, Wisp, and Oberon excel in similar roles without receiving any nerfs, so why is Dante being singled out when there are already existing frames that overshadow him?

It's disheartening to see developers yielding to the demands of a vocal minority, while disregarding the satisfaction of the majority of players content with the game's current state. You guys missed the mark this time, creating a genuinely enjoyable Warframe that excels in support,damage and surviving , only to later seek ways to diminish his strengths.

You might as well revert back to frames like Wisp or Trinity, or explore other Warframes focused on healing and damage, as it's highly likely that Dante will suffer the same fate as previously nerfed frames after they’re done with him smh.

This repetitive pattern is truly disappointing. I’m sure nothing will be learned from this since money comes first as usual but I still hope they can try hard to avoid ruining the fun and excitement of future Warframe releases since this one and the previous two were so nerfed and tuned that they needed to have bandaids added to them to make them viable. So disappointed DE.

 

 

previously nerfed warframes didnt die ...

for one styanax's nerf afaik was that he couldnt cast his 4 in the air and had to actually land on the ground, and gyre's one was an unintended bug fix that people call a nerf, both gyre and styanax are very usable at their current state and i find both of them fun. we havent even been told what they're ganna focus on for dante let alone how far, and people already are talking about dropping the frame for no reason.

 

[Xenevier]

16 minutes ago, PsychoGlory said:

DE has a history in ruining warframes because of toxic players that do not really use those warframes.  Most do not even go to higher level content.  There should never should be nerfs in a game, only buffs.

for one, what frames did DE ruin because of toxic people? and two, you saying there should never be nerfs is the same as saying balance should not exist in this game, they should just raise the ground if someone is too low, and thats how you make any game feel boring and non challenging. balance is a combination of nerfs and buffs, take one or the other out and suddenly everything turns into chaos, this isnt exclusive to warframe, im talking in general about games

[Corvid]

13 hours ago, JimothyStevens said:

I'll leave you to your spin

In other words, you don't have an answer.

Which is to be expected, because you're trying to reconcile a belief with a reality that does not support it.

[Circle_of_Psi]

23 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

And you know what the Styanax nerf was? Removed the ability to cast his 4th ability "Final Stand" multiple times in midair. That's it, that was it. If that's an indicator of things to come, THAT is the level of "nerf" you can expect from Dante

Wait, is that all they did, just a bug fix being able to re-cast over and over mid-air?

No wonder I have not noticed any change, weird.

[TARINunit9]

9 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

Wait, is that all they did, just a bug fix being able to re-cast over and over mid-air?

No wonder I have not noticed any change, weird.

I'll let DE speak for themselves:

Quote

Removed the ability for Styanax to recast Final Stand multiple times while in the air. 

• The facts: with the synergy of Rally Point providing Energy and Shields, you can spend almost your entire mission in the air. For transparency, this is something we caught earlier in development, but this change was missed for the release of Veilbreaker. You can still be in the air when you first cast Final Stand, but to recast, your toes must first touch a surface, similar to how Transference casting is done.

But yes that was the only nerf they gave Styanax, six days after his launch

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, Xenevier said:

I know it feels like garbage to have something you like taken down a step and i dont think your feelings are invalid in anyway, i just think directing that hate to me specifically is missguided if anything

Gotta agree with this ^

Sure, Xenevier did make the original post that DID start this trend of topics and as Waeleto said: "The community manager commented on it and the creative director referenced it in the dev short so obviously people are gonna talk about it and who posted it" so all signs point to Xenevier but at the end of the day, all they did was post their feelings on Dante in no way did they directly ask for a nerf

However, I can see that pretty much everyone disagrees with this and is looking for someone to blame, so I can understand how easy is it to lock targets on the original poster of who asked about Dante to begin with but like Xene said, there is absolutely no possible way that this person alone made DE think "Yup, let's nerf him" since Xene isn't the only person who provided Feedback, I don't pay attention to Reddit or YTs so I have no idea what they been saying.

Lastly, I will say this: When the "Nerf" (or multiple balance tweaking) does come and Dante is somewhat nerfed to some extent, I strongly urge everyone not to start a witch hunt, since it will only lead to well bad outcomes.

Also, Xene, don't feel like you are responsible for this, all you did was voice your opinion on Dante and that was that sure nothing stopping you from wishing you could go back in time and stop yourself, we all wish we could do that xD

 

Also, each time I spell your name, it keeps auto correcting to Xena, no idea why..

[Circle_of_Psi]

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I'll let DE speak for themselves:

But yes that was the only nerf they gave Styanax, six days after his launch

Huh..

[Merrcenary]

В 31.03.2024 в 22:03, Waeleto сказал:

there is a select group of people on the forums who CONSTANTLY ask for nerfs to almost everything

First they came for the wukong, and I did not speak out—
  Because I was not playing on wukong.
Then they came for the zarr/ogris/etc, and I did not speak out -
  Because I was not playing with aoe.
Then they came for Dante — and there was no one left to speak for me.

classics

[Binket_]

1 hour ago, OneOmniverse said:

- A lot of words with nothing to say -

• 50k Overguard on the drop of a hat. Actively regenerates when ally or user gets a kill.
  • For those wondering, neither Styanax nor Frost gain the regeneration property of this.
  • Nor do they get the effect without a target. They have to be ACTIVELY in combat.
  • Dante does not.
  • As far as Rhino, Kullervo, etc. are concerned? It only affects themselves.
• Radial Expedite Suffering with Forced Slash. Boosted with a bigger multiplier too.
• Summons that are not affected by map geometry, invincible and distract enemy AI. Makes enemies take more Status Effects.
• A passive buff that grants all players a slightly weaker copy of his Exalted. Fires on enemy taking damage.
• Passive grants +50% Status Chance on any enemy scanned within the Codex. Exalted auto-scans.
• A subsume that grants large forced Slash in a large cone of vision.

I think the better question is "how did they think this was okay?"
But sure, nerfs only hurt the game I guess.

Next you're gonna tell me Styanax is 100% useless because you have to touch the ground every few minutes.
Completely ignoring that his 1 can do the same funny it did prior to the """""nerf""""" just fine.

... but hey, short-sighted fun is all that matters right?
Who cares about the people who want to play the game when you're going, get your fix now!
Disgusting.

48 minutes ago, Xenevier said:

both gyre and styanax are very usable at their current state and i find both of them fun. we havent even been told what they're ganna focus on for dante let alone how far, and people already are talking about dropping the frame for no reason.

Yup! It's a shame too.

I find Styanax is a great Warframe outside of just the 4th Ability.

• His 1 can pull in groups super quickly and is very spammable. I even use it as movement tech on some occasions!
• His 2 is one of the best Armor Strips. Opening enemies to Finishers, removing both Armor and Shields alike, healing the user in the process... it has a lot!
• His 3 is an aggro pull that grants Energy to his squad. It's also great because it grants Shields on kill, allowing more frenzied playstyles IF the user can upkeep it!
• His 4 locks him in to fire a large barrage. Nothing too fancy, but gets the job done.
• Hell, even his passive is nice. More Critical Chance with current Shields? Yes please!

But since people can't use """the funny""" (that would've gotten stale quickly anyway), people think he's dead.
It's incredible how arbitrary and fickle players are here.
Humans are fickle by nature, but calling a Warframe dead because they fixed an obvious bug?
Crazy people, it's no wonder the game is an unbalanced mess-- they keep catering to people like OP who just want big numbers at ALL costs.

Dante being nerfed won't kill him. He's still stupidly strong, he just needs a number tweak to encourage actually TRYING to use his kit.

[Raarsi]

2 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I think the better question is "how did they think this was okay?"

The same reason they thought Nezha's new augment being able to do the same sort of non-stop tileset nuking Dante can with far less energy consumption was okay.

At worst, Dante might get his group overguard nerfed a bit and maybe reduce the base range on his abilities a bit.  Best case scenario of course would be that nothing happens, Pablo or Reb tells players to git gud, and DE goes off to change overguard to interact with mods and abilities that proc off of health damage.

[Waeleto]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Little history lesson for you: Styanax was nerfed six days after his release. As of this writing he holds the record, not Dante. And you know what the Styanax nerf was? Removed the ability to cast his 4th ability "Final Stand" multiple times in midair. That's it, that was it. If that's an indicator of things to come, THAT is the level of "nerf" you can expect from Dante

That wasn't a nerf that was a "bug"fix, styanax was not even supposed to release like that

1 hour ago, Xenevier said:

previously nerfed warframes didnt die ...

for one styanax's nerf afaik was that he couldnt cast his 4 in the air and had to actually land on the ground, and gyre's one was an unintended bug fix that people call a nerf, both gyre and styanax are very usable at their current state and i find both of them fun. we havent even been told what they're ganna focus on for dante let alone how far, and people already are talking about dropping the frame for no reason.

Both of those warframes got band aid augments after nerfs and then started being played, between the time styanax got nerfed and getting nourish he had one thing to his name and that was the fact that he was given for free, after getting nourish and until he got the augment he had one thing and that is being a railjack pilot, he was shaping to be very forgotten

 

 

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

50k Overguard on the drop of a hat. Actively regenerates when ally or user gets a kill.

the first attempt as making overguard not useless in higher levels and it STILL falls off

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

As far as Rhino, Kullervo, etc. are concerned? It only affects themselves.

I believe dante/frost/styanax overguard should be to themselves only tbh, if that's what they change then win/win

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I think the better question is "how did they think this was okay?"
But sure, nerfs only hurt the game I guess.

how did you think mesa, wisp, saryn, revenant, hildryn, octavia, nezha are okay ?

Dante is good but not nearly as good as other things in the game

[Binket_]

On 2024-03-31 at 4:03 PM, Waeleto said:

t's really fascinating that there is a select group of people on the forums who CONSTANTLY ask for nerfs to almost everything and what's even funnier is that you won't find this sentiment anywhere else, not in-game chat or reddit or twitter or discord, it's just here.

If by "almost everything", you mean extremely broken things that are clearly dominating gameplay?
I.E. Gloom, Revenant, Thermal Sunder, Nourish, etc.?

Yeah. Shocker that some people recognize what game balance is outside of devs.
Almost like we PLAY the game, not just find more ways to trivialize content in the most """"efficient"""" way.

I see Dagath doing insane numbers and lots of Viral procs-- but you know why I was fine with it on her released?
Because she was balanced. Relatively frail, but lots of strength behind it.
Her revive gimmick seems a bit questionable, but the only real "problem" I can see.

Dante has..

• Expedite Suffering innate to his kit with a radial cast and a bigger multiplier.
  • With innate Slash and forced proc. Be it on the actual 4 cast or the dual-cast of his 3 beforehand.
• Easily achieved Overguard that can reach well over 50k. Often with little effort and very inexpensive mods.
• Summons that are unrestricted by terrain, invincible and distract enemy AI. Along with their Status Chance boosting effects.
• A copy of his Exalted that can fire alongside players. Fully using any mods added to it.
• An Exalted with fiercesome Status and Critical alike and high Base Damage (even before Strength).
  • Topped with a primary fire of pure Slash along with a Alt-Fire with immense damage and full body Punch-Through.
• A passive that boosts Status Chance PERMENANTLY when filling a Codex Entry. Codex auto-fills with Exalted.
  • Also, not entirely sure on this one-- but I hear it DOES boost allies too.
  • Meaning a Dante existing in general can boost Warframes like Saryn, Ash or Voruna to utterly insane levels.

Just looking at those numbers ALONE scream nerf to me.
I'm more surprised it even released in the state it did.

On 2024-03-31 at 4:03 PM, Waeleto said:

People have this trend of hating on anything that is good/popular/new until it's nerfed to the ground and then proceed to ask "why did this warframe get a band aid augment ?"

Power creep. That's why.

People keep saying "Why don't they just buff the older stuff in that case?"
We wouldn't need to dramatically buff those older cases if the newer stuff didn't keep trying to break the entire game in 5 different ways.

Inaros and Nidus were the biggest tanks one could get once upon a time... but that's also because we...

• Didn't have Steel Path. Enemies were far squishier and dealt far less for "common content".
• Shields were basically useless anyway, so them having high armor and high health was what most Warframes wanted to mod on.
• Their death-prevention passives were easier to pull off and less Warframes existed to give them competition.
• Large-scale nuking was basically only a hypothetical in those days. If it DID happen, it was the byproduct that has been long-since-nerfed now.

Yet despite that, Inaros only got a rework because his abilities sucked. They did back than too.
Nidus on the other hand STILL holds up to this day, being quite powerful in the right hands and being a welcome source of Ability Strength.

... but on the other hand, when you gets cases like "Ember" who DOES have a good kit?
You also get Warframes like Dante. Ones of which make it less and less effective.

Like it or not, the game needs people to recognize that just because you have power... doesn't mean you deserve it.
If someone can say "I farmed the Warframe, I deserve the power!" than I can say "I bought 200 Donuts, gimme the store.".
I know nothing about making donuts, but if it all it takes to own a donut store is buying their entire stock?
Why even make a store? Just take over someone else's. Skill, experience or technique doesn't matter. "Just throw more money."

It's stupid, it's silly-- stop that. We're supposed to be better than this.

On 2024-03-31 at 4:03 PM, Waeleto said:

It's getting really tiring opening the forums and only seeing nerf this or nerf that, and i'm not saying stuff getting nerfed is wrong completely in a pve game, the aoe and afk strategies were 100% deserved but it just feels like this certain group just wants the game to go back to it's 2014 era with EVERYTHING that is good or strong nerfed, it's literlaly asking for the fun factor to be removed from the game.

I think it's a lot more tiring having to ALWAYS agree with """"positivity"""".
There are issues, ignoring them doesn't make them "magically disappear". _{That's why therapists exist, people tend to forget that problems don't just go away.}

Most people here aren't asking to go to the days of Stamina and Super Jump.
We're asking to please avoid a game where we're stacking 17 layers of invincibility on us while the enemy is doing 3 damage an hour.
The game can be automated enough as is-- we don't need more ways to not die. We had enough even BEFORE Overguard.

 Some of us want to do better and it sucks that we can't because some brainrotted husks can't learn to dodge for the life of them.

 

On 2024-03-31 at 5:17 PM, TARINunit9 said:

I'm going to take this line of logic a little further: I don't see people asking for nerfs in-game, but I don't see them asking for buffs either. In-game is not the place for feedback. These here forums, are the place

If I may add some sarcastic humor:
"Yeah, let's ask Timmy the fresh install for his opinion on endgame content.
Never mind the fact that he's lost and can't find the neon arrow pointing to the Venus Junction.
It'll be fiiiiiine!"

Jokes aside, it seriously baffles me how our "endgame content" isn't much harder than like... 10 minutes in a Saturn Survival, Standard Starchart.
Yet there are players out there- regardless of their gear- that struggle immensely with Level 20 enemies as is.
Asking the players from within places like Region Chat is asking for misinformation or just really bad takes. I could easily be convinced they're ChatGPT bots.

I personally don't care what the Reddit has to say (their "upvotes" or whatever is mostly arbitrary anyway) and their Discord bans people on a whim. (I'm half certain DE themselves don't even know why half their users are banned from there.)
The Community Discord isn't even managed by DE, they're unaffiliated with Market and Wiki and the ingame chat... well, just look at Region Chat for answers there.

This is really the best spot for feedback. Not JUST because it's intended for that, but because all the other spots tend to be a lot more unsavory.

[Aldain]

I'll never understand the conflation of "fun" with insanely over-the-top performance and/or straight up power creep.

[Silligoose]

9 hours ago, Waeleto said:

again the powercreep talk bfr now, frost was barely being played and everyone was begging for a rework and styanax was literally forgotten with no one talking about him or playing him in higher level content, he had nothing except being a good railjack pilot (and only thanks to grendel's subsume)

The talk about powercreep is real because it turns Warframe into a baby-game. Overguard is a detriment to this game on enemies and little more than a new shiny on players, contributing to powecreep and turning "high level content" into even more of a joke. 

I enjoy Frost, but his abilities have a lot of effect overlap leading to redundancy - that is why he could benefit from a rework/revision. Overguard doesn't change that.

I played Styanax far beyond encouraged content levels prior to him getting Overguard. Cc, defence strip, player resource replenishment on various fronts... he was more than fine and didn't need Overguard added in the slightest.

[Waeleto]

2 hours ago, MrDugan said:

People don't get this.  He crushes low level so he must be OP

Most of the people who complained about him ARE low level ...

[Waeleto]

Just now, Silligoose said:

The talk about powercreep is real because it turns Warframe into a baby-game. Overguard is a detriment to this game on enemies and little more than a new shiny on players, contributing to powecreep and turning "high level content" into even more of a joke.

Instead of asking to nerf one thing maybe you should ask to buff older warframe and make enemies more challenging in different ways ? but that's too much work to ask for ig

[PsiWarp]

Hmm.

Overguard on players should have more mechanical difference than on enemies. Vs enemies is simple to understand, remove the guard then not CC immune.

For example, Overguard generation on Dante, at least for allies, should be dialed down so not everyone of them can be a pocket Kullervo with twice the Overguard cap (Light Verse and Triumph are using separate caps).

IMO, status immunity/prevention on Overguard shouldn't outperform dedicated status immunity abilities by simply existing (Spellbind, Disometric Guard, etc), there should be a felt impact, like a flat 15%-25% max Overguard drain per status prevented. That alone keeps players on their toes since a few knockdowns and Lancer Slash procs could knock out the Overguard gate.

And there are abilities/Augments that depend on functioning without Overguard due to shields or health taking hits. I hope they figure out a way to make it work, so Overguard doesn't remain an involuntary drawback for squadmates.

[Waeleto]

HOLY MERGED THREAD !!!

Is this the 2024 equivalent of the heirloom thread ?

[_Eclips3_]

I have a feeling their real problem is his nuking ability. DE d e s p i s e s nuke abilities apparently.

Edited April 4 by _Eclips3_

[Corvid]

29 minutes ago, NameLessFreak said:

You mean the contradiction everyone has been pointing towards and you've been ignoring them?

It's a contradiction in what you are saying.

According to you, DE is simultaneously trying to deliberately make things suck while at the same time also trying to make things not suck.

These two ideas cannot both be true.

Nice attempt at pathologising me though. Really helps to show the kind of mindset you're approaching this discussion with.

[CoffeeElemental]

The only good overguard ability I can think of is Rhino's Iron Skin. For two reasons:

1. It works only for Rhino and does not 'disrupt' anyone;
2. It scales off of enemy damage output. This is important because overguard cannot get damage reduction and overguard cap is honestly bs - it will always feel imbalanced for lower level content and completely irrelevant in higher level content where it gets deleted if a lancer looks at you funny. The window where capped overguard stays relevant is tiny (and different for all frames that have it for some reason). 0.5 seconds gating is nice tho but not much.

So, nerfing Dante's og buff will not achieve much aside from pissing everyone off I think. Making it scale with enemy lvl around Dante when he casts it can work, probably.

Originally, this was a thread about Overguard, not Dante in particular. Why did it get merged?

Edited April 4 by CoffeeElemental