LoS Fixes for Dante’s Tragedy coming in next Hotfix

[Azvalk]

Line of sight restriction make sense in case of projectiles, or auto guided projectiles, that need to acquire targets.
Saryn power, it's poison in the air, it's everywhere, ok.
Dante power ? It looks like magic to me. Even the FX goes through solid matter. So.. logic dictates it shouldn't have line of sight restriction..
Dante is the wizard warframe.. He's here to support team and control the situation with impressive spells.
As a Dante player, we check the minimap, we wait for big number of red dots, and cast our spell on time.
Line of sight restriction, prevent us from doing that.
I'm happy to see line of sight working, but it's not suited for this ability. Do it on abilities that logicaly need it.

[BelialUr]

56 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

Responding to the edit:

 

It's not in an ideal state because of LOS. That's it. Fix it.

[MightyMike87]

Only people who wanted Dante nerfed are Chroma players and people who haven’t yet made it out of regular star chart. 

[Nakti]

20 minutes ago, BongoSkaggs said:

It's almost like different people have different bloody opinions and a community is not a hivemind.

Exactly. That's why I called them "uncompromising", as hate train won't stop until every single claim is satisfied.

[Azlelium]

17 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

 

We appreciate the video, since it showcases the problem with the current Line of Sight checks in a very analytical and accurate way.  However, the behavior in the video is what is being fixed. See attached video for the upcoming improvements to how we check for LOS that were mentioned in the first post.

Hi there, as a major proponent on the "revert change" team I have some questions as to the thought process behind this change. I fully feel like Dante's damaging abilities were in a fine state prior to the hotfix's bugs/added LoS.

 

1.) if the complaints and purpose of the changes in the hotfix were supposed to deal with how dominant he is, are there plans to look at other dominant damage dealing frames such as mesa, saryn, Octavia and even protea? Because I as a player am deeply confused as to how he stands out as a dominant powerhouse when he is outperformed by many other damage frames

 

2.) if possible is there a chance for data that lead to these changes being discussed being shared with the community? From an outside perspective most of these changes feel as if devs are going "wow a lot of people are playing Dante, something must be overturned" which feels painful to people who potentially paid for access to Dante/enjoyed and heavily invested into the frame only for the frame to be nerfed within a week.

3.) is a LoS nerf the only change to tragedy that devs feel is sufficient in nerfing the character down to a power level? If the concern was the damage being dealt by the character, surely a simpler change would be to change what tragedy actually takes into effect when calculating the damage to be dealt (i.e. removing heat or other element types from the damage calculation).

If a nerf /must/ happen to the ability why is the first thought something that will only bring a feeling of clunkiness and annoyance to the character's kit rather than actually looking at reducing the physical numbers the damage is doing. From an outside perspective these nerfs almost feel random and, personally, any LoS that means a thin wall (and not one that is physically apart of the map tileset) prevents any and all damage from my ability will kill any and all drive to play the character.

 

sincerely,

a newly bound Dante main

[-AncientWarrior-]

Ok so DE said they are listening to our feedback.. well have you had enough .. 99% want Dante back.. you listened to the 3 whingers on the forum and came up with this crazy nerf to a frame 5 days old.. well here is what the players have said.. we expect the un-nerf in a hotfix tonite pls..

[Xenevier]

even as the guy who basically made the post about dante changes, i agree the LoS changes will not be fun for anyone, idc about the overguard, maybe could go a little easier on that but the LoS change was unnecessary tbf

[PollexMessier]

I hope you realize DE, that the community is never, ever going to trust your word on how you're going to handle nerfs again. And any future frame that releases in a good state is going to be met with extreme skepticism, if you don't own up to your mistake and fix this.

[TzXtetriC]

My god what have they done to dante? Do they even know what they are doing? Wtf.... R.I.P dante, back to the closet, they killed a fun frame

[Sir-Lorkhan]

il y a 59 minutes, [DE]Megan a dit :

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

Remove the los on tragedy! Or make it so that enemies that have been touched by his 3 always get hit by tragedy. You just KILLED Dante after 1 week! The frame is unplayable now! He is a END-GAME FRAME! HE IS SUPOSSED TO BE STRONG! Why do you nerf his powers but not Saryn!?!?

Nerf all the nuke frame. 

 

Refund my forma!

Edited April 4 by Sir-Lorkhan

[Atlas_Carter]

I don't think a nerf of this caliber was warranted on Dante... what was the thinking that lead to this?  "Usage numbers are too high?"  Of course they are, he's easy to farm and build and he's the new hotness.  He hasn't been out long enough to reduce his utility, he doesn't out-perform the frames that are still meta and have been meta for years, and I guarantee his numbers were inflated because of the ease of acquire.  

If we use the 'too much usage' logic...then wouldn't Mesa, Saryn, and Wukong be due for a nerf?  No, they would not and have not.  I think the Dante nerfs are too heavy-handed, please reconsider.

[Basarix]

What in the name of Mike?
DE....seriously...i'm not usually one to question your decisions or anything but who's brilliant idea was to KILL the brand new frame you had us all excited about?
REVERT the nerfs and/or reimburse everyone who spent plat/forma on the frame cause you've rendered him nigh unplayable....

[TheMadCash]

Revert LOS. Los is not & never has been a great thing for a game like Warframe. Terrible nerf. Pls revert. #RevertDante

[nicolajtheking2]

1 minute ago, PollexMessier said:

I hope you realize DE, that the community is never, ever going to trust your word on how you're going to handle nerfs again. And any future frame that releases in a good state is going to be met with extreme skepticism, if you don't own up to your mistake and fix this.

SPOILER they WON'T.

[Chroia]

31 minutes ago, [DE]Momaw said:

the problem with the current Line of Sight checks

How Line of Sight works has been a problem literally as long as it has existed.

Don't get me wrong - I like X-ray nukes, but I understand severely restricting it.
And if 'LoS' just meant 'can't go through terrain' that'd be fine.

I'm not saying 'revert the nerf', I saying 'however you do it, make LoS actually work'.

On a more personal note (from me, not aimed at you, Momaw):
I have 7 forma on Dante + Noctua. Sure, the Overguard generation was cool, but the investment was entirely on the strength of Tragedy not having had LoS.
I really should have known better.
But clearly, it's been too long and I needed the reminder.
So thanks for that, I guess.

Edited April 4 by Chroia

[Psionic_Rift]

Every person here is asking for a revert. The nerf and ESPECIALLY making tragedy LOS based at all has killed my drive to play Dante and the game in general after I came back from hiatus for this update. Don’t “change” the LOS on tragedy, remove it. There’s no reason for him to have it given how many other powerful frames weren’t given this treatment.

[Sea_Blue_Stars]

"ThErEs NoT eNoUgH dAtA aBoUt HiM!"

He's been used so heavily since his release that there's probably TONS of data to go on. This is a game with millions of players, not a few thousand. They probably have a LOT of data from thousands of missions to go on, and if that's showing a problem, then its showing a problem. 

[RevanOfTheSith]

First of all I will say that the LoS nerf for Dante was a little heavy handed.  I have tried 3 different builds with him and it just seems too unfair for a "mage" frame.

The existential problem I see is that you nerf a frame by adding LoS but you have countless others that don't require it.  Look at Saryn - they do more damage now, are even more destrutive and have better base stats.  Saryn does not need LoS to go off so really what is the difference?  The energy consuption needed for Dante needs to be built around and now there is a LoS factor which put him in a league that is not really powerful anymore.  I think the LoS nerf to Dante needs to be removed because I no longer want to use what was a new favourite frame because we finally got a mage in the game.

[Drachnyn]

vor einer Stunde schrieb [DE]Megan:

To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.

This just further confirms how much of a kneejerk reaction this nerf was.

[MrBoople]

3 minutes ago, Basarix said:

What in the name of Mike?
DE....seriously...i'm not usually one to question your decisions or anything but who's brilliant idea was to KILL the brand new frame you had us all excited about?
REVERT the nerfs and/or reimburse everyone who spent plat/forma on the frame cause you've rendered him nigh unplayable....

I spent $15 bucks on him. If they're not going to AT LEAST remove the LoS I want my money back.

[Ocerkin]

1 hour ago, [DE]Megan said:

We've been poring over your comments regarding the balance changes to Dante. We want to reiterate that we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. As with everything in Warframe, iteration is always possible, and we’ll be keeping a close eye on how Dante feels now that these alterations are in your hands. 

One of the clearest pain points from the community is the inconsistencies in Tragedy’s Line of Sight (LOS) checks, and we can confirm that the following changes are already on deck for an upcoming hotfix: 

• Tragedy not hitting ragdolled enemies that are within LOS

• Increasing the number of LOS checks per enemy to improve the reliability of marginal hits 

We are still actively reading your feedback and encourage you to continue to share your constructive thoughts after spending time playing Dante with the changes. Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts with us thus far!

--
To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function.  

 

if you are really pouring over our comments, look at the MASSIVE number of likes the posts demanding a full revert is getting, this is a full on revolt against your decision and the clear response is to accept you made a mistake, revert your changes and give the players what they want. dante isnt this overpowered game breaker you portend him to be, other frames can do everything he could and easier and for years now.

 

accept reality, give revert the nerfs and give us back our frame.

[mmpt007]

Revert the changes please, he really sucks now.

[nicolajtheking2]

#UN-NERFDANTE

Edited April 4 by nicolajtheking2

[DanteTheHawk]

34 minutes ago, Nero.DMC said:

Half measure is still BAD, revert the LoS changes its not neccesary Dante was not outperforming any of the good frames, its incredible how dumb it can get... i have not seen a SINGLE post defending the LoS changes, you tell us that you are reading feedback, That means DE is ignoring the feedback of everyone that complained about the LoS changes...  offer refunds for Dante and his formas at this point, its the least you can do.

Please if you are gonna just make it some lesser BS just give us a refund. 

[Sarulas]

There is no salvaging this mess, at least not with a hotfix like this. After the comments about this being a 'light adjustment' that was going to be 'carefully considered,' destroying the functionality of Dante's kit like this a mere 2 days later is a slap in the face. Such a high profile failure severely damages the community's trust, and will kill interest in other new frames as their power could swing wildly as the result of these unnessesary and reactionary nerfs.

This LoS change must be FULLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY reverted. Attempting to double down by fixing issues that shouldn't exist in the first place will only further erode trust.

You won't get more chances at this. If tomorrow's hotfix doesn't completely solve the many issues introduced today, there will be no way to save face. And based on the outline you provided in this post, that seems incredibly unlikely. Further attempts to update the flaws with LoS checks will only draw more attention to the fact that it didn't need to be changed in the first place. Removing the restriction down the line after failing to address the problems will only cause more embarrassment. And leaving it in such a broken state is obviously unacceptable.

Please. Revert this mistake. Do it now, and save yourselves the hassle and PR.