Is everyone fine with big overguard numbers?

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Yes we are!

[deucich]

With recent changes to eclipse, any warframe with own damage reduction ability can go above a million EHP without any issues. Times 10 when you deploy ancient healer specter.  Times 100 when you deploy citrine specter on top of that. 100k to be honest doesn't seem as anything impressive nowadays.

[SneakyErvin]

You are basing the observation on a fissure and it isnt even an abnormal eHP number for a buff at that. The regular non-fissure OG would be 50-60k or something.

Nezha and Rhino can reach these numbers easily and have been able to do so baseline since SP was added. They do so by simply jumping into a crowd of enemies and trigger Halo/Iron Skin and eat damage during the invulnerability time, same goes for Yareli. It is hard to pull off versus infested and in labs, cos those bastards have no pew pew pew hitting fast and hard. Versus Corpus, Grineer and Corrupted it isnt unusual for those 3 frames to end up with 2-3 times as much extra eHP as the OG you observed.

[_GoodLuck_]

These 70k (or 100k) means nothing when you play high level SP content

[Xsoskeleton]

i dont mind big numbers

what i do mind is loss of functionality when u got that big number.
Some frame still functions by taking damage personally so the moment they got overguard they lost all that functionality.

stares at the nearby lizard whose scales softened since overguard donors are a thing.

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Considering how hard people hated on the brief iframes from shield gating over the years I'm honestly surprised OG hasn't become the new thing to hate on. 

Or how is a team wide regenerating third health bar ok but any form of crowd control is taking it too far? If both types of abilities effectively remove all threats what's the difference? 

There are so many ways to break the game and it just interesting seeing where people draw the line of what's acceptable what isn't. 

I think it’s because one is intended, while the other wasn’t

One was also seen as a crutch for all frames, while this is only a part of survival for a few frames. It also encourages big pool numbers of overguard as opposed to miniscule amount of shields

[kadlis12]

If I compare OG by Dante with OG by for example Rhino Iron Skin, I would call the worst mistake of Dante's design being completely cut off from the mission level. It is a flat number, regardless of the circumstances. Therefore, whatever the number is, in most cases it will be the wrong amount. Either too much or not enough.

I do not mind a "healing" frame based on keeping OG up. It has the same purpose as always, just in another package. Well - in an ideal world, but in reality a classical heal will stop at your HP maximum, while OG cap is not related to anything but Dante's Ability Strength in this case. So, tens of thousands OG it is. I will be honest, I would find a lower number, even forcing you to depend on "OG gating" a bit more reasonable in a wider spectrum of missions.

(and yes, fixes to OG interfering with effects and abilities are surely needed, but that I would consider a bug, not a troublesome design)

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

We really didn’t need extra survivability. We had countless mods, skills with damage reduction, operator mode, shield gate mechanic, last gasp, revives. Worse: All of these things are now rendered meaningless.  Yes,because of overguard the game is reduced in complexity and has less meaningful choices.

Some of the are rendered meaningless because they are bad or at least bad in certain situations.

Shield gate? ~1.5 second of immortality. More? Spam abilities.

Revives? No teammate or solo.

Last gasp? Not enough damage or you die as OP.

Damage evasion (e.g. 75% xaku)? Even Archon hunt render it meaningless solo.

5 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that?

Oh, you are forgetting one thing. Right? Your or your team DPS were high enough. Go with bad gear. You will get MOOORE hits hence your Overguard will disappear much sooner. Even number of players affect how bad it can be. I wouldn't bother with Archimedea, SP Circuit or even Netracells with bad gear & solo.

3 hours ago, Genitive said:

That's just another thing that pushes power creep even further. Give it a year or two and the deep archimedea will be considered too easy, and people will start asking for another tier of difficulty.

I wouldn't mind if they reigned in player power, but the community will throw a tantrum again.

If they are going with 'damage = dificulity' then it will be easier. They tried with modifiers (not gear) and luminous guys. Some of them are interesting. Some of them are 'meh'. Like turning off op is like asking for some cheese.

3 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

3 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

SOME people don't want challenge in their grind. They just want to "veg out" and play the collector game, gathering hundreds of resources to put into building new weapons, frames, and consumables, along with raising standing with factions, focus, and whatever else tickles their fancy for the day.

SOME people want every moment of their gameplay to be on the razor's edge of death, where dodging, always staying on the move, and using cover is key to simply SURVIVING... these players won't find the same frames or game modes fun. They might even disagree on how the game should be balanced... crazy, right?

I didn’t feel like stating the obvious. The issue I have is that the game is increasingly leaning towards pleasing the former group. The issue is that the introduction of overguard didn’t solve a problem or add anything to the game. We were already surviving just fine with the layers we had: dmg reduction, shield gate, operator mode, last gasp, etc.

Here is the thing "just fine" is not enough. Sure, for not "high content" it works. But for "high content" you go into so much gimmicks, gear requirements etc that just bad.

And OG? It works for some content.

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Considering how hard people hated on the brief iframes from shield gating over the years I'm honestly surprised OG hasn't become the new thing to hate on. 

Or how is a team wide regenerating third health bar ok but any form of crowd control is taking it too far? If both types of abilities effectively remove all threats what's the difference? 

There are so many ways to break the game and it just interesting seeing where people draw the line of what's acceptable what isn't. 

It depends how much Overguard you get.

Like 30k Overguard in SP is not huge. Even you get more you still have to kill enemies. If you don't kill fast enough you get less OG.

On other hand CC of any units turns game off. For e.g. 30 seconds no unit can damage defense target. You don't have to do ANYTHING. That's difference.

2 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

2 hours ago, WindShadow970 said:

That's a numbers issue (and also a byproduct of power strength creep). I don't mean to be entirely dismissive but that is very easily adjustable.

Yeah, you’re not dismissive, the number is the issue I have with it. It’s in the title. I am wondering how DE considers 100k fine when they recently buffed archgun deployment with 2k overguard. Like, they must have thought that was a decent buff.

2k overguard is not 'buff'. It's way for you to survive and have little 'break'. I think 2k og were added before Netracells. That tells you something.

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

2 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Huh, did not realize. Maybe there were two Dantes, do they stack?

Still, even half would be very strong.

And here’s the thing: adaptation, shield gate, armor buffs and other means of increasing survivability are under my control. They’re meaningful because I collected the mods, I am doing the required inputs, I am paying attention to their triggers.
 

That’s way different than simply being given a giant raincoat by a squad member.

Expand  

They don't stack, the dante with higher OG cap will apply, it 100% was a relic buff that gave ability str and range, Most optimal dante build would give around 60k OG which is in-line with frost/styanax

60k? That's 400 strength. I wouldn't call it optimal.

 

 

[Stormandreas]

The big numbers? no.

The complete invulnerability to everything except damage? Yes.

The fact OG not only has a shield gate (at 0.5s sure, that's for Kullervos benefit though everyone gets it), ignores all forms of CC, ignores all forms of Status effects and protects all health and shields COMPLETELY against, quite literally, everything in the game. It trivializes a LOT of content.

Edited April 10 by Stormandreas

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Yesterday I played a two hour conjunction survival omnia fissure. SP, of course. There was a Dante in the squad. I had 100k overguard throughout most of the match. Not once did I dip below 70k.

To me, these are numbers that aren’t proportional to anything else in the game. It’s just ridiculous to the point that they might as well remove player death as a mechanic and it wouldn’t make much difference.

We really didn’t need extra survivability. We had countless mods, skills with damage reduction, operator mode, shield gate mechanic, last gasp, revives. Worse: All of these things are now rendered meaningless.  Yes,because of overguard the game is reduced in complexity and has less meaningful choices.
 

I am officially only playing solo from here on, except for deep archimedia. To contrast, I had one of the most fun runs in Warframe in that game mode the other day. My squad had all picked every modifier and we had to look out for each other, focus fire on tough enemies and revive left and right. We talked about it in the chat, how great it was to feel like a team again. It isn’t fun to die, but the fact that it can happen makes teamplay, builds and countless mechanics meaningful.

Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that?

Don’t bring up 5 hour SP endurance runs, few are doing them regularly and they’re not something to base balance decisions on. At the 1 hour mark I could facetank an acolyte by myself while being afk to make coffee.

Your take fluctuated wildly throughout your entire post. We went from...

• Who needs overguard? We never die
• To, "I played Deep Arch and the entire squad was dying left and right"
• To then going to back to "5 hour SP endurance runs" being the only thing that can kill us.
  • I also call BS on the acolyte coffee remark. Those things can shred even a 95%+ DR Baruuk if you let them.

 

And the "numbers aren't proportional"...? But they are.

• While they are the upper max, Deep Archs are still the new threshold in terms of DE incentivized content. Any frame or gear needs to preform at a satisfactory level in them.
• People have already pointed out Dante needs 667% power strength to get 100k overguard. 
• You've fallen victim to "scary big numbers" psychological trap. Take a Qorvex with no mods except normal Vitality and Adaptation... he's already at 58.8k EHP.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

2 hours ago, deucich said:

With recent changes to eclipse, any warframe with own damage reduction ability can go above a million EHP without any issues. Times 10 when you deploy ancient healer specter.  Times 100 when you deploy citrine specter on top of that. 100k to be honest doesn't seem as anything impressive nowadays.

Oh citrine specter....I totally forgot....you're a genius.

[Genitive]

2 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

The fact OG not only has a shield gate (at 0.5s sure, that's for Kullervos benefit though everyone gets it), ignores all forms of CC, ignores all forms of Status effects and protects all health and shields COMPLETELY against, quite literally, everything in the game. It trivializes a LOT of content.

And at the same time it makes crowd control frames suffer. We have been given so many tools to be invulnerable and deal tons of damage, but god forbid we can stun an eximus.

[Anti-Incarnon]

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

Your take fluctuated wildly throughout your entire post. We went from...

• Who needs overguard? We never die
• To, "I played Deep Arch and the entire squad was dying left and right"
• To then going to back to "5 hour SP endurance runs" being the only thing that can kill us.
  • I also call BS on the acolyte coffee remark. Those things can shred even a 95%+ DR Baruuk if you let them.

 

And the "numbers aren't proportional"...? But they are.

• While they are the upper max, Deep Archs are still the new threshold in terms of DE incentivized content. Any frame or gear needs to preform at a satisfactory level in them.
• People have already pointed out Dante needs 667% power strength to get 100k overguard. 
• You've fallen victim to "scary big numbers" psychological trap. Take a Qorvex with no mods except normal Vitality and Adaptation... he's already at 58.8k EHP.

You’re kinda intentionally misrepresenting me. I didn’t say «we never die», I was saying we have a lot of ways to prevent death that requires more thought put into builds and gameplay than overguard does. We’ve farmed and grinded for those ways to be available to us. I happened to mention a deep arch run that required that we put those to use, but due to modifiers we also had to actually pay attention to teammates. I contrasted it with a long-ish SP run which due to Dante provided little incentive to actively play.

To me, the other survivability tools are more meaningful than being given massive amounts of overguard that has immunities to boot.

All I am asking, and which few have tried to answer, are questions such as: What did overguard add to the game?Did it solve a problem? In my opinion it did one thing: it made it possible to stay alive in high level missions with less button/key inputs, and I don’t think that’s a good thing. I prefer a game that incentivizes me actively doing stuff.
 

You mention Qorvex with his high EHP, well, he can also get ridiculous amounts of overguard on top of that. Why?

If overguard didn’t add anything meaningful or solve a problem, then what’s the point other than power creep itself and adding a new shiny toy that enables big numbers? I don’t like that power creep looks more and more like an intentional strategy and I do think there are other means of keeping the playerbase engaged with the game.

Considering most of the responses in this thread maybe not, though.

Edited April 10 by Anti-Incarnon

[Aldain]

[RustonMartin]

6 часов назад, Genitive сказал:

That's just another thing that pushes power creep even further. Give it a year or two and the deep archimedea will be considered too easy, and people will start asking for another tier of difficulty.

I wouldn't mind if they reigned in player power, but the community will throw a tantrum again.

Its already too easy, we need lvl cap deep archimedea

[Genitive]

4 minutes ago, 228illuminati1337 said:

Its already too easy, we need lvl cap deep archimedea

And here we are. The current level cap enemies aren't even as sturdy as they used to be before the scaling rework.

You could increase enemy level until you reach the level cap, but with the amount of tools at our disposal people would probably hardly feel any difference. That's why I think player power needs to be lowered. Power fantasy is cool and all, but if it makes the game too easy and boring, then maybe the devs should reconsider the direction.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I think the reason for it, was because Overguard is a new "design space" for the dev team to play in, and they're playing with it. They seem to like it as variety, alongside overshields, and it has (or can have) different interactions with status effects and other frames. It opens up new territory, so they don't have the baggage of all the mods and things impacting overshields... like magnetic procs, and now the interaction with rage/adrenaline builds...

So, overguard does have its niche, separate from overshields and other forms of party support. I like it.

 

[CrownOfShadows]

Yeah overguard's awkward inclusion into our gameplay is a big mystery to me. I'm mostly just like.... why?

I don't hate it on some frames, like Kullervo and Dante kinda are designed for it and would be terrible without it, but the sharing has got to stop or be nerfed super hard, it's dumb.

I don't even hate it as a possible arsenal-wide mechanic but if you're gonna do that you gotta actually plan for it, not just slap it on whoever you feel like and then hyper share it afterwards. It's so wonky that in one game you can have 60k OG as Banshee or Nyx or something just because you exist in the holy presence of Styanax, Dante or Frost, and then any other time you're back to your regular programming. Like wtf is this mechanic. What's the dream/plan behind it exactly and why is it in this state?

[Voltage]

This is just how Warframe is now. It's always been pushing the envelope with powercreep. Years ago the main enemy was a Nullifier. Now it's evolved into an entire sub-category of enemy ignoring many abilities, and now with Entrati Disruption, resisting armor strip. Overguard is just another layer of power tacked on to push forward the arms race.

Edited April 10 by Voltage

[UnstarPrime]

9 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that?

I assume most people are fine with that because there are already so many abilities that make your entire squad practically immortal.  Trinity, Citrine, Revenant with augment, Octavia, etc.  In that context, Overguard isn't really moving the needle as much as adding a new flavor that visualizes differently so people actually notice it.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb Anti-Incarnon:

Yesterday I played a two hour conjunction survival omnia fissure. SP, of course. There was a Dante in the squad. I had 100k overguard throughout most of the match. Not once did I dip below 70k.

To me, these are numbers that aren’t proportional to anything else in the game. It’s just ridiculous to the point that they might as well remove player death as a mechanic and it wouldn’t make much difference.

We really didn’t need extra survivability. We had countless mods, skills with damage reduction, operator mode, shield gate mechanic, last gasp, revives. Worse: All of these things are now rendered meaningless.  Yes,because of overguard the game is reduced in complexity and has less meaningful choices.
 

I am officially only playing solo from here on, except for deep archimedia. To contrast, I had one of the most fun runs in Warframe in that game mode the other day. My squad had all picked every modifier and we had to look out for each other, focus fire on tough enemies and revive left and right. We talked about it in the chat, how great it was to feel like a team again. It isn’t fun to die, but the fact that it can happen makes teamplay, builds and countless mechanics meaningful.

Overguard is the stupidest thing I’ve seen added to the game. The fact that two or three button presses can make an entire squad practically immortal, how are you all fine with that?

Don’t bring up 5 hour SP endurance runs, few are doing them regularly and they’re not something to base balance decisions on. At the 1 hour mark I could facetank an acolyte by myself while being afk to make coffee.

I'm not interested in that kind of thing at all. I only play Rambo Warframes, which are almost immortal.
but beginners need something like that. So you hate new players and want as many people as possible to be frustrated at the beginning and hardly anyone except leg accounts play the game?

[Waeleto]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

now with Entrati Disruption, resisting armor strip

I lowkey liked that a lot

[HermlT]

2 hours ago, UnstarPrime said:

I assume most people are fine with that because there are already so many abilities that make your entire squad practically immortal.  Trinity, Citrine, Revenant with augment, Octavia, etc.  In that context, Overguard isn't really moving the needle as much as adding a new flavor that visualizes differently so people actually notice it.

there is one small difference though, which i think is significant. it lasts forever. cant be nullified(at least on dante). all the damage reduction and health buff abilities have timers and conditions, and disappear immediately afterwards. buff upkeep is important and falling out of the map/being nullified by a boss attack is a meaningful threat. compare that to overguard, which is a 60k~ guarantee that you wont die/get CC'd for the next 60k dmg. no complexity or threat, just play and watch out when its done. no worries unless you get hit by something major that would get you killed outright in other cases if you werent being cooperative with your team buffs.

it further pushes other glass cannon frames into the meta, since they now truly don't have to worry about survival. its just damage now. everyone is rhino basically.

[Cortes02]

If we strictly talk about team playing, there's stuff that's comparable or even more broken than og tbh.

Saryn destroys a whole map with one button, if there's no enemies alive there's no need to tank in the first place+the other remaining 3 people don't even need to kill.

Revenant gives 5 total seconds of invincibility to everyone by pressing 1 button. 

You can subsume gloom on anyone and boom your team can't die.

Wisp makes your team unkillable and buffs you at the same time also with one button.

Dante gives a S#&$ ton of og, but still takes a bit more than just 1 tap. There's lots of stuff that should be addressed before og imho if you want to balance the game in that way

[UnstarPrime]

3 minutes ago, HermlT said:

it further pushes other glass cannon frames into the meta, since they now truly don't have to worry about survival. its just damage now. everyone is rhino basically.

With respect, this seems like an exaggeration.  The glass cannon frames that can't produce their own Overguard (presumably that's redundant?) still need to build for some manner of survival (whether that's shield-gating, Rolling Guard, whatever) because there's no guarantee you'll be grouped up with someone who will have the ability to babysit you by giving you Overguard, etc.

 

13 minutes ago, HermlT said:

there is one small difference though, which i think is significant. it lasts forever. cant be nullified(at least on dante). all the damage reduction and health buff abilities have timers and conditions, and disappear immediately afterwards. buff upkeep is important and falling out of the map/being nullified by a boss attack is a meaningful threat. compare that to overguard, which is a 60k~ guarantee that you wont die/get CC'd for the next 60k dmg. no complexity or threat, just play and watch out when its done.

In terms of timed buffs, I would say Overguard is a side-grade rather than an improvement.  Whether the buff dissipates at a specific time or after a certain amount of damage, you have to pay attention to something so you can recast when needed.  Timers are consistent, while a damage buffer can last a short time in some cases and a long time in others.  Whether a player prefers one or the other will generally come down to personal taste.

That said, you're right about the nullification; that provides an extra thing to be aware of for players using buffs that Overguarded players don't have to worry about.  It's situational, but in those situations it can make a difference.