Why De Was Wrong In Removing Eb Syndicate Synergy.

[Tveoh]

so correct me if i'm wrong but before patch the weapons you could use was all the melee weapons and post patch less efficient to use certain weapons?

post patch you can use any melee weapon you want, cause only base mods are used to buff EB.  pressure point, spoiled striked,  etc etc.  Before hte patch, it only made since to use melee weapons that had a syndicate mod that not only boosted damage, but gave the syndicate mod effect to EB as well.   

 

So post patch.  You can use any melee weapon you want, cause only mods count,  not stats.    so you could load up the weakest melee weapon in the game with all damage mods, and it will give the same boost to EB as say putting all damage mods on scindo prime.

[Tveoh]

You are correct. Before the patch you could use any weapon.  Post-patch using a weapon with a syndicate augment makes the weapon less effective.

wrong, as reasons that i stated.   before the patch,  it only made since to use weapons with syndicate augment mods.   Limiting the choice of weapons to use to boost EB.   Post patch you can use any melee you want, to boost EB.  and if you don't have those syndicate mods, then you aren't at any disadvantage at all.   Cause those mods are only usefull if you are actually using that melee weapon to fight with,  If all you doing is using to to boost EB, then don't use that mod on the weapon, and put a different mod in its place

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

wrong, as reasons that i stated.   before the patch,  it only made since to use weapons with syndicate augment mods.   Limiting the choice of weapons to use to boost EB.   Post patch you can use any melee you want, to boost EB.  and if you don't have those syndicate mods, then you aren't at any disadvantage at all.   Cause those mods are only usefull if you are actually using that melee weapon to fight with,  If all you doing is using to to boost EB, then don't use that mod on the weapon, and put a different mod in its place

Are you being dense on purpose? Before weak weapons had extra utility.  This gave you a balance point to use them over strong weapons. 

Now they don't and will actually do less damage than the strong weapons when in EB because the augment wastes a slot.  Even, if you don't equip an augment, you won't get any additional benefits for using the weaker weapon.  However whenever you are outside of EB, you will be at a massive disadvantage. 

 

There is no LOGICAL reason to use anything other than the highest DPS weapon now. It's hilarious that you would claim that you felt forced to min-max before the patch but were suddenly cured of the compelling urge after the patch.

[Tveoh]

Are you being dense on purpose? Before weak weapons had extra utility.  This gave you a balance point to use them over strong weapons. 

Now they don't and will actually do less damage than the strong weapons when in EB because the augment wastes a slot.  Even, if you don't equip an augment, you won't get any additional benefits for using the weaker weapon.  However whenever you are outside of EB, you will be at a massive disadvantage. 

 

There is no LOGICAL reason to use anything other than the highest DPS weapon now. It's hilarious that you would claim that you felt forced to min-max before the patch but were suddenly cured of the compelling urge after the patch.

If only using a melee weapon and no secondary or primary,  Sure then using the weakest melee is an issue, unless you like that weapon and don't care what people say.  Then you aren't punished for not using a weapon that you like. 

 

I have found through my time in games, that people prefer to play with items and gear they like,  Rather then with the Gear that people say they Need to use.   

 

Before Patch, sure you might have used whatever you wanted,  But if you got into a random group or was recuirted into a squad, and you were playing Excal, you might have been belittled if you werent using the Best Gear, that they saw fit for that Frame, or rather for you to be spamming EB.    

Now you can use whatever you want, and not have to deal with anymore.   To a degree, people are still jerks that are always jerks....    But its lessened cause the choice to be viable with anything is there.

 

And you do seem to be missing the point.    If all you are doing is taking a Melee Weapon with you to Boost EB, then just equip Damage Mods on that Weapon.     Cause the big thing that this Thread is about, is all about EB and Boosting EB,  not about using a Melee weapon in actual combat, just about using it to boost EB's Damage.      All they did was allow people to have an even and equal field of choice, by removing mods that could only be used by set weapons.   If a mod could only be used on dual cleavers..  then it was out,   as those without that weapon would be at a disadvantage to someone that had them.     Cause not everyone has enough weapon slots to have all the weapons,  i think the average slots people have is 6 for weapons, 3 for frames.   for the majority of players.    could be wrong, but i do know that not everyone has the whole arsenal at their beck and call and had to pick and choice weapons and even frames to keep and which to get rid of just so they could increase their mastery rank.   

 

By getting rid of Syndicate mods affecting EB, everyone is on equal footing reguardless if they haven't spent a dine on the game, or if they have spent hundreds of dollars.   

 

-edit-

 

Also  i'm out.  Cause..  there isn't enough coffee in the world to make me keep this up.   

 

Recap...

 

Issue..   Exalted Blade Damage, is now boosted solely by damage mods,  Weapon stats don't mean a thing.   Syndicate mods were removed cause they gave too much of a boost in terms of damage and ability to Exalted Blade, creating a rift in players that had those weapons and mods, with those that didn't.    

 

Issue...     Exalted Blade, can be boosted by any weapon, as it only cared about the mods on the weapon.  So Boosting Exalted Blade is easier, and can use any weapon if all that weapon is going to be used for is to Boost Exalted Blade.

 

Issue...   Only high End weapons will be used, cause...  They give same boost to Exalted Blade as lower Tier weapons?   Because said weapon.... Might be used to in actual combat, rather then just a boost to Exalted Blade?....

 

Issue....   BSoD....   failure to reconnect...  Shutting Brain down to prevent further loss of sanity

Edited August 22, 2015 by Tveoh

[Arlayn]

I don't see how this is nerf hell. I always just used my lean mean Killing machine Dragon Nikana with its beastly mods on EB. Works fine even in end game. Surprisingly better than any ultimate in the game might I add... Even Valkyr players cry when their ultimate is wasted as I clear entire hallways in seconds.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

If only using a melee weapon and no secondary or primary,  Sure then using the weakest melee is an issue, unless you like that weapon and don't care what people say.  Then you aren't punished for not using a weapon that you like. 

 

I have found through my time in games, that people prefer to play with items and gear they like,  Rather then with the Gear that people say they Need to use.   

 

Before Patch, sure you might have used whatever you wanted,  But if you got into a random group or was recuirted into a squad, and you were playing Excal, you might have been belittled if you werent using the Best Gear, that they saw fit for that Frame, or rather for you to be spamming EB.    

Now you can use whatever you want, and not have to deal with anymore.   To a degree, people are still jerks that are always jerks....    But its lessened cause the choice to be viable with anything is there.

 

And you do seem to be missing the point.    If all you are doing is taking a Melee Weapon with you to Boost EB, then just equip Damage Mods on that Weapon.     Cause the big thing that this Thread is about, is all about EB and Boosting EB,  not about using a Melee weapon in actual combat, just about using it to boost EB's Damage.      All they did was allow people to have an even and equal field of choice, by removing mods that could only be used by set weapons.   If a mod could only be used on dual cleavers..  then it was out,   as those without that weapon would be at a disadvantage to someone that had them.     Cause not everyone has enough weapon slots to have all the weapons,  i think the average slots people have is 6 for weapons, 3 for frames.   for the majority of players.    could be wrong, but i do know that not everyone has the whole arsenal at their beck and call and had to pick and choice weapons and even frames to keep and which to get rid of just so they could increase their mastery rank.   

 

By getting rid of Syndicate mods affecting EB, everyone is on equal footing reguardless if they haven't spent a dine on the game, or if they have spent hundreds of dollars.   

I have literally never had anyone say anything about what I was using on EB. Even if you were using something other than a syndicate mod your damage would be oneshotting most things if you were any good at building for it and any good at the game.  Maybe they were just giving you hell because you are not, or maybe your story is just made up? 

 

Personally, I don't care if you want to use your melee weapon as a fashion accessory, go for it, but that is not what I am talking about.  I am say that there is no logical reason to choose more than one weapon, meaning the logical number of choices has been lowered, contrary to the patch notes. The physical number of choices is the exact same as it was before.

 

 

I don't see how this is nerf hell. I always just used my lean mean Killing machine Dragon Nikana with its beastly mods on EB. Works fine even in end game. Surprisingly better than any ultimate in the game might I add... Even Valkyr players cry when their ultimate is wasted as I clear entire hallways in seconds.

EB auto parries.  With the removal of stamina, channeling while parrying drains energy.  You have to channel to use Life Strike. Doing so can drain your energy reserves nearly instantly.  Before you could use the syndicate effect to kill a bunch of enemies then get some passive healing occasionally without needing to channel.

 

Ergo - it's a nerf.

Edited August 22, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[NinthAria]

Personally, I don't care if you want to use your melee weapon as a fashion accessory, go for it, but that is not what I am talking about.  I am say that there is no logical reason to choose more than one weapon, meaning the logical number of choices has been lowered, contrary to the patch notes. The physical number of choices is the exact same as it was before.

 

 

Except there are a lot of logical reasons, many of which people (myself included) have outlined here. However, I'm beginning to realize that our definitions of "logical" differ greatly, so while this discussion interested and amused me for a while, I don't think I'm going to commit any more of my time to it.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Except there are a lot of logical reasons, many of which people (myself included) have outlined here. However, I'm beginning to realize that our definitions of "logical" differ greatly, so while this discussion interested and amused me for a while, I don't think I'm going to commit any more of my time to it.

"I like the pretty colors" is not a logical reason to use a weapon, but that's fine, I accept your concession of defeat/forfeit. We were going to get far with you confusing "logical" and "emotional" anyway.

Edited August 22, 2015 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Empiren]

Before Patch, sure you might have used whatever you wanted,  But if you got into a random group or was recuirted into a squad, and you were playing Excal, you might have been belittled if you werent using the Best Gear, that they saw fit for that Frame, or rather for you to be spamming EB.    

Now you can use whatever you want, and not have to deal with anymore.   To a degree, people are still jerks that are always jerks....    But its lessened cause the choice to be viable with anything is there.y

This wouldn't make any sense.

 

Lets say you aren't using syndicate weapons and someone belittles you for doing low damage.

 

Now the syndicate weapon synergy get removed

 

So...they are still going to make belittle you.

----------------------------------

 

You see, this is the made up scenario that never existed in the game.

 

 

The fact that people are complaining about optimization when they made it so you have to have lifestrike to be optimal is just silly.

-Edit: I have lifestrike btw, incase someone attempted the "oh poor you" argument.

 

 

Once again, it is an arbitrary line drawn in the sand. 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Empiren

[Azamagon]

Modding for Exalted Blade (and Hysteria *cough cough*) should really just be a seperate modding area of its own.

 

That way, the melee weapon you choose doesn't affect EB at all. All diversity problems solved!

[Tesseract7777]

DE was right to remove syndicate mods. 

 

You say this "people will go back to Scindo/whatever". But if someone is staying in EB nearly all the time, it really doesn't matter what melee weapon they use, what matters are the mods. That wasn't the case when syndicate weapon mods were allowed to affect EB, and people were using only syndicate weapons. 

 

It's not rocket science. You can say that people will go back to their Scindo/Dakra Prime or whatever, and maybe you will switch to that personally, but that's not a valid argument. They accomplished what they set out to accomplish: Make it so that every melee weapon was equal when EB is turned on. If you use nothing but your Scindo Prime that's YOUR PROBLEM. 

 

Also, the most hysterical part is how many of the OP and others act like they as Excal's are the only ones to ever use syndicate melee weapons. You realize other people sometimes use them OUTSIDE OF USING EXCAL??? 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Modding for Exalted Blade (and Hysteria *cough cough*) should really just be a seperate modding area of its own.

 

That way, the melee weapon you choose doesn't affect EB at all. All diversity problems solved!

I concur: Modding for an ability should be done with the current ability mods(Power strength, Range, Duration, and Efficiency) and completely mostly independent of weapon mods.

Had the issue with Archwing: although Mesa no melee health passive, Auras, and New Arcane Ehancments carry over into Archwing. (Arcane Strike and Arcane Avenger are useful.... Have not tested to see of 'OG' Arcane helmet stats also carry over into Archwing*)

For Hysteria and Exalted Blade: Range is easy to see as ability-melee attribute, Power-strength can be used to scale damage, crit chance, and status chance. Duration could be an entirely differt aspect for Hysteria &Exalted Blade like increasing attack speed or some other ability-melee attribute.

DE could retool how those attributes would convert as melee modifiers for Hysteria/Exalted Blade/Possibly Brawler(Warframe)

[Aggh]

 

You say this "people will go back to Scindo/whatever". But if someone is staying in EB nearly all the time, it really doesn't matter what melee weapon they use, what matters are the mods. That wasn't the case when syndicate weapon mods were allowed to affect EB, and people were using only syndicate weapons. 

 

This argument goes both ways.  Being "forced" to use syndicate mod weapons was never really a big deal since people are using EB all the time anyways.  The only remotely sensible argument could be one of accessibility, but one of the better mods for EB is a skana mod and can be gotten pretty cheaply.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Aggh

[CryvernX]

the mod was unnecessary... excalibur is still powerfull enough without it

[Tesseract7777]

This argument goes both ways.  Being "forced" to use syndicate mod weapons was never really a big deal since people are using EB all the time anyways.  The only remotely sensible argument could be one of accessibility, but one of the better mods for EB is a skana mod and can be gotten pretty cheaply.

 

No it doesn't. 

 

Being "forced" to use syndicate weapons was a big deal even with people using EB all the time because the syndicate effect worked even while EB was on. That meant that if you didn't have a syndicate weapon equipped you couldn't get the regular proc for energy/health restoration or what have you. That made it so equipping nothing but a syndicate weapon was the go to thing to do for Excal, and no other weapons were being used.

 

EB was originally designed so you could take anything from a Silva and Aegis to a Prisma Skana, to a regular Skana to a Karyst and get the same results with EB up as long as you had the same mods on your melee weapon. They added the syndicate effects after people asked, and then decided they didn't think it was a good idea because nothing but syndicate melees were being used. 

 

Now anyone can use any melee weapon and get the same result as long as EB is up and they have the same mods. There is no both ways to the argument, not really sure what you even mean there. 

[TheBrsrkr]

People are still on this?

[Feallike]

This thread's logic is flawed.

 

They didn't nerf any weapons they nerfed the mods.

EB Is only effected by mods, so the syndicate mods gave you more damage and a proc. They didn't make those weapons anymore useful they where basically fodder.

 

Now you can use any weapon without being weaker than a excal with a machete with his snydicate proc, healing, and higher damage. OP your logic is flawed and I can't take you seriously.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

"I like the pretty colors" is not a logical reason to use a weapon, but that's fine, I accept your concession of defeat/forfeit. We were going to get far with you confusing "logical" and "emotional" anyway.

If you are going to argue only to win, one might as well consider that you are doing so just to be against someone, and that your arguments are of no actual relevance as feedback.

Also, being able to choose what you want isn't tied to logic, so the "logical" choice doesn't really hold as much value. People do what they want, and DE made it better for everyone, be their preference "emotional" or "logical". People won't use the augment mod weapons anymore as much? They didn't really use them to start with, they were there just to old a 100% base damage mod, nothing more. At least now if they only want the best, they can efficient in EB and outside of it, rather than only being able to maximize one of them.

[Tesseract7777]

If you are going to argue only to win, one might as well consider that you are doing so just to be against someone, and that your arguments are of no actual relevance as feedback.

Also, being able to choose what you want isn't tied to logic, so the "logical" choice doesn't really hold as much value. People do what they want, and DE made it better for everyone, be their preference "emotional" or "logical". People won't use the augment mod weapons anymore as much? They didn't really use them to start with, they were there just to old a 100% base damage mod, nothing more. At least now if they only want the best, they can efficient in EB and outside of it, rather than only being able to maximize one of them.

 

I agree and one thing you mention is my biggest gripe about all the complaining to be honest. 

 

Many Excal's users (of the ones actually complaining) are saying "now no one will use the syndicate melees!", but there are two things wrong with that: 

 

1) Lots of non Excal's already use some of the syndicate melees, most notably the Prisma Skana. It's purity effect gives it enough dps to get by if you mod it right, along with it's crit capability making it work well with Berserker for speed, and that health boost means you don't necessarily need to slot for life strike, which helps your build get more dps it sorely needs. Point is, some syndicate melees were indeed already used before Excal, and still will be after the change. I still use my Prisma Skana a lot on non Excal builds. Usually if I am going to be doing an endless and know I'll want that healing effect. 

 

2) And this is my biggest gripe here about the claim that "now no more syndicate melee DE removing choice blah blah blah". Those Excal's weren't using the syndicate melee weapon, they were basically just slotting the mod into their Excal build by way of the melee weapon. These Excal's are keeping EB on basically 100% of the time and so they aren't actually using the syndicate melee weapon because you don't get its stats, you just get the effects from the mods. These people are acting like now syndicate weapons won't be used as much, but in reality they weren't using the weapon anyway! They were just, taking advantage, of the mod, and that's all they were doing. 

 

I understand why people don't want an ability weakened. That's a natural feeling. But when the complainers act like they are on some righteous crusade to make sure syndicate melees see more use it just rings as hollow argumentative nonsense/grasping at straws in a futile effort to get another power added back to their frame. I'd prefer they just be honest and say "I don't care about game balance, whenever something I use gets weaker it annoys me and I want it changed back". At least that's an honest reason. 

 

The only people whose complaining on the issue makes sense to me are the ones who are saying that if they are the type of Excal who doesn't stay in EB all the time, they now basically can't use syndicate melee for Excal (with the augment equipped) because it's now a wasted slot on their melee whenever EB is up. I wish there were a compromise solution, but I really am not sure there is one. Either way, it's a handful of weapons that won't work ideally with EB now, when before it was only a handful of them that were considered "viable" at all, because everyone and their brother thought using a syndicate melee weapon was the way to go. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Tesseract7777

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

If you are going to argue only to win, one might as well consider that you are doing so just to be against someone, and that your arguments are of no actual relevance as feedback.

Also, being able to choose what you want isn't tied to logic, so the "logical" choice doesn't really hold as much value. People do what they want, and DE made it better for everyone, be their preference "emotional" or "logical". People won't use the augment mod weapons anymore as much? They didn't really use them to start with, they were there just to old a 100% base damage mod, nothing more. At least now if they only want the best, they can efficient in EB and outside of it, rather than only being able to maximize one of them.

The "emotional" response can be anything. Some people might "feel" like not equipping a melee weapon at all when using EB. That doesn't make it reasonable, and that is why the logical basis is the only one that holds merit. And logically speaking, the nerf has made lowered the choices for which melee weapon to use with Excalibur.

[ZzVinniezZ]

if you have problem using the AOE effect on the syndicate mod for your melee or the Healing / energy restore once the effect is filled go and craft some restore station and use Javelin man...i dont see why people upset because of this and i'm Main Excal i don't seem to have a problem coming to these thing...DE want you to use every melee you like for the EB by removing the Syndicate mod effect instead of forcing you to use 1 weapon over and over just like Coptering (i'm glad that gone)

Edited August 23, 2015 by ZzVinniezZ

[Azamagon]

I concur: Modding for an ability should be done with the current ability mods(Power strength, Range, Duration, and Efficiency) and completely mostly independent of weapon mods.

Had the issue with Archwing: although Mesa no melee health passive, Auras, and New Arcane Ehancments carry over into Archwing. (Arcane Strike and Arcane Avenger are useful.... Have not tested to see of 'OG' Arcane helmet stats also carry over into Archwing*)

For Hysteria and Exalted Blade: Range is easy to see as ability-melee attribute, Power-strength can be used to scale damage, crit chance, and status chance. Duration could be an entirely differt aspect for Hysteria &Exalted Blade like increasing attack speed or some other ability-melee attribute.

DE could retool how those attributes would convert as melee modifiers for Hysteria/Exalted Blade/Possibly Brawler(Warframe)

Well, heh, besides power strength/range/duration etc, I meant that modding for Exalted Blade and Hysteria would have a seperate WEAPON modding area of its own, as if you were modding for a weapon.

 

For example:

Power Strength - Affects Exalted Blade base damage

Power Range - Affects distance and/or width of the waves

Power Duration - Affects slideattack's blinding duration (possibly something else too?)

 

Then, in the Exalted Blade weapon modding area, you can ALSO add stuff like Pressure Point, Spoiled Strike, Shocking Touch etc. The amount of modpoints you get for it depends on Excaliburs level (and if he has a Reactor it doubles the amount of modpoints he gets for the weapon too).

[Hypernaut1]

this thread is hilarious- and went nowhere. 

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

The "emotional" response can be anything. Some people might "feel" like not equipping a melee weapon at all when using EB. That doesn't make it reasonable, and that is why the logical basis is the only one that holds merit. And logically speaking, the nerf has made lowered the choices for which melee weapon to use with Excalibur.

It didn't. There's more viable melee weapons than weapons with 100% base damage augment mods. There's also utility melee weapons, and only one has an augment mod.

Logically or not, is up to the player to choose which weapon they will want to use, and as no weapon gives any extra benefit during EB, any weapon is a valid choice now.

 

Your preference does not mean anything as an argument, and just because you think that Dakra prime is the best it doesn't mean everyone will use it or even find it the best, which is actually the truth, not everyone is running around with a Dakra, Dragon or Scindo.

 

At this point, people acting like a wall and making faux arguments about the diversity being lowered is nothing more than a way to try to make DE enable the mods again for no good reason, they simply doesn't have a good argument for that, and to just glorify themselves with a victory that holds no value and that only decreases the value of their opinions.

This threads really need to get closed, they aren't going anywhere and at this point, this people are only trolling by copy/pasting the same silly "the best" argument (which is barely an argument).

Edited August 23, 2015 by Sorrow0110

[CapedBaldy]

My only argument against the removal of syndicate mods on EB is that it completely kills Excal channeling builds since sustainable self life restore is now limited to channeling. And don't say Life Strike is optional when we have so many goddamn shield ignore damage. We do sort of improve 'weapon diversity', which I hesitantly say since we're just really shifting the 'diversity' and strongly discouraging use of syndicate weapons on Excal. It's just trading build diversity for weapon diversity.

 

Oh well, channeling Excal was dead anyway with the stamina changes, so I'm not too miffed. Well played, DE.