Dev Workshop Part 4: Hotfix 18.13.2 information & more!

[Hellmaker2004]

9 minutes ago, taiiat said:

ah, just saw a good note - the way Blessing has been working mechanically rewards risk and making you consider a balance between waiting or casting it constantly.

if Blessing will always provide Damage Reduction based on Power Strength, we indeed will be back to Trinity v1 - where you run a Macro on Blessing throughout your Mission because there's literally no reason to not constantly cast it.

Yeah, if this change is into a static value instead of a value depending on your team members health, it would change it into a macro ability that you auto casts it every XX second depending on duration. Now all we need is a macro that auto spin her around while following someone and casting Energy Vampire and we do not even need to play her anymore.

 

I hope we misunderstands the re-design they intend because if we do not she will become even more boring than she currently is.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Hellmaker2004

[Angelito]

I think it would be good if Trinity's blessing could heal all her teammates like before, but have the damage reduction be affected by the tenno affinity range.

Also, can you please fix the bug where my operator changes her face after the first transmission? It happens every game & a lot of people are having this issue.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Inqa

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

Just now, taiiat said:

it's identical across all platforms, and has been the same way for Years.
unless you are literally behind the Missile, it will follow you forever.

i never said anything about dodging them, but you glazed over that. being directly behind the Missile is the only location that successfully dodges them. because they have an infinite lifetime

Well, I actually think that is a pretty fair way to dodge a missile IMO. 
Warframes have amazing mobility, so getting behind a missile while you keep using abilities or shooting is extremely easy. 
Personaly, I neved had any troubles at dodging them, even in high level missions (as the only think that escales with level is the damage). 
but, if you want that to get nerfed, I don't have any problem with that, because I think they are really easy to dodge already xD

Edited June 1, 2016 by (PS4)BrutalReaper32

[Archwizard]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Before enemy Plasma Grenades explode, they will live for 3 seconds after coming to a rest on the ground. Plasma Grenades can now be shot in air or when they are on the ground. When an enemy Plasma Grenade is shot and killed, it will explode and damage any enemies in range with no damage to you. A Tenno with a keen ear will be able to identify these threats and counter them with an accurate shot before it's too late.

I like the idea, but I'm still not sure how much help that'll be. Personally my issue is that I can hear them ticking (vaguely off in one direction or another) just in time to jump away, but I never see them, just their explosion.

^{Also means I have to play with my headphones on, which is a pain since my roommate insists on talking to me when we're playing together.}

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Ballistas will have telegraphing when they are winding up to fire off a round from their deadly Vulkars. An observant Tenno will be better able to identify and prioritize these threats.

But what kind of telegraphing?

The point of Ballistas is that they are more of a threat from far away than they are close-up, after all. If the telegraphing is that they just do a twirl and a flip before they fire, they'll be just as dangerous as now since you can't see that from far away.

If it's more like Opticor where they aim a laser at you before firing, however...

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

For now this is as simple as fixing the Hyekka Master’s Ignis dealing damage through walls.

Should you have anything else in mind, leave a comment below linking to your existing feedback thread, or simply discuss here.

Have you fixed their fire patch hitting players in the Rift yet?

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity: Blessing: Damage Resistance is no longer calculated based on an Average, but instead a flat value simply capped at 75% (which can be achieved via use of Strength mods).

I'd be wary of giving Blessing any kind of flat mitigation. For starters, it just throws the "reactive" aspect of the ability out of the window, and all it will do is just keep people from shooting their own feet to get the mitigation if the effect is guaranteed.
(Unless I misinterpreted and this still requires players to be injured to receive a high amount of mitigation; the post really doesn't specify.)

This also heavily depends on how much Strength we need to get that cap...

Edited June 1, 2016 by Archwizard

[CarrotSalad]

Thankyou for the update. :)

On topic I really like the grenade change. As i've been staring at grenades before and felt disappointed i couldnt do anything to prevent them from going off.
The grenade change along with the description Rebecca made of "get out or be killed" gave me happy flashbacks to the chaosUT Unreal tournament mod and the volatile ammo mutator) ROFL.. Imagine if ammo pickups were sensitive to heat, abilities and gunshots causing bullets to shoot out in all directions

[-BM-Mitz]

24 minutes ago, DYSEQTA said:

Polarize is no longer about wasting enemies. Polarize is now about restoring shields and creating shrapnel.

I could not care less for the kills. I just wanted to strip Shields to focus on the hp type. Same with the armor reduction too. I'd personally prefer if all damage from the ability is removed so in exchange I can use it as a better shield/armor reducer. That's of course my personal wish. I'm not gonna apologise for wanting to play differently. 

[Xekrin]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity: Blessing: Damage Resistance is no longer calculated based on an Average, but instead a flat value simply capped at 75%

This is good but considering she still has a useless Well of Life ability and EV needs a serious looking at, please take into consideration some of my ideas here.  Especially since Link already give Trinity a 75% DR, why not use that instead?

 

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are working on making the squad UI show who is in range with the Tenno Affinity markers, it might not be ready for 18.13.2.

Also great, especially if its shared across all frames so no matter whom you play you know who is in range.  However we also need to know when RAD procs affect our squad.  Reasons and suggestions here

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Xekrin

[motorfirebox]

7 minutes ago, Major_Phantom said:

I could not care less for the kills. I just wanted to strip Shields to focus on the hp type. Same with the armor reduction too. I'd personally prefer if all damage from the ability is removed so in exchange I can use it as a better shield/armor reducer. That's of course my personal wish. I'm not gonna apologise for wanting to play differently. 

I like the new Mag, but I actually agree with this. Polarize should strip % of shields and armor, but be limited to flat damage on shield explosion. That way it's still useful for stripping defenses, but it's not going to completely wipe an entire map tile with one cast.

[4ever4gotin]

Can Trinity's blessing still keep some of the risk-reward? I mean even just (flat amount %) + (healing %) or something like that sounds and feels better. This just screams KEEP ME ON ALWAYS.

I mean yes its still better than the current model, which hinders Trinity for playing with others. But it is sooo bland...

Also on a little minor note, Link Trinities (or suicide Trins if they're still called that), would practically disappear. Between the two extremes EVamp Trinities and Blessing Trinities, Link Trinities rely heavily on higher DR while having lower duration then bless Trins and having usually higher costing abilities to manage (as well as a strange perma death bug that has never been addressed nor fixed, it has been brought up on the forums on multiple occasions). We were the black sheep, kind of, and I would hate to see us get traded out for the boring blessing mentioned here.

Spoiler

Well.... I know what I'm going to be playing tonight, living out the last memories...

[--DSP--]

2 hours ago, Fifield said:

Excellent Ballista change.  Likewise with the enemy plasma grenades.  I have literally never seen one in the game but I do die 'randomly' from time to time.  The audio signature should help.

Bombards should either have super slow missiles that will follow you from room to room or have much slower turning circles.  They should also not punchthrough pillars.

I think Sapping Ospreys should be toned down and and Mine Ospreys seriously buffed.  I think the shields of Shield Lancers should be immune to punchthrough, and Grineer should use this as a tactic to get their melee units into range.

Trinity

I honestly like the current Bless better.  I think one frame should have  75% damage reduction as a main ability but it should be much shorter, around 8s and not spammable.  Nor should it be on the frame that is the best healer and only energy provider.

Even after the nerf, Trinity was the most powerful frame in the game.  Now you've buffed her.  How are the other healer frames supposed to compete?  If you're planning a nerf to Energy Vampire then good.  But rather than taking an axe to it, have a look at this suggestion:

Also, remake her first skill.

Scaling

Grunts die in 1 shot in everything but Sortie 2+ and raids... and I can't even trigger a single shot.  When I first started playing Warframe, I had to be tactical.  I had to use cover.  I had to actually think how to approach fights.  Nowadays I can literally aim roughly at the floor with a Sonicor and everything dies.

The elite units are fine but the grunts need a serious HP buff.

Most of the people complaining about scaling don't know how to mod, or feel entitled to sit in endless for an hour and then complain about the enemy being too hard.

We need missions where enemies start harder but scale more slowly eg we want missions starting around level 100 (like Sorties but with a 2x damage buff instead) but that scale half as fast.  I know Void is being blown but but as an illustrative example:

T1 starts at level 40 but only scales to level 70 after an hour.
T2 starts at level 60 but only scales to level 90 after an hour.
T3 starts at level 80 but only scales to level 110 after an hour.
T4 starts at level 100 but only scales to level 130 after an hour.

Actually, since you have kinked in-game scaling now, difficulty should ramp up in the first few minutes (as a warmup), then slow down as above.

With a 2x damage buff instead of 3x, they should be doable by every veteran player and every frame.

I've been trying to get some feedback on my idea to change the EHP and damage curves:

Lastly, think about how to make solo easier.  They have to face up to 900% more armour, get no free revives, have to kill twice as many enemies per player and get half the rewards.

How did they buff her? She is still nerfed nonetheless.   

[Velimir_Volkov]

I am quite happy to hear the team is considering reworking enemy scaling and behavior on the long term, I am hopeful.

As for feedback on telegraphing enemies and informing the player what is going on in the battle, please consider reading a QoL thread here that has many of my thoughts on the matter.

In short, please consider this: Think of enemy telegraphing AS A WHOLE. In combat we Tenno are faced with endless waves of enemies, tens up to a hundred enemies might be on screen at once. Giving a single enemy a single telegraphed animation will not be seen in a hoard of grenades, fire, bullets, osprey, lasers, moa, shockwaves, nullifiers, and everything else. In the chaos of battle, the only thing that is standard and unwavering is our UI, which needs to be able to inform us when our visuals can not. Consider adding more interactive HUD and UI design in the game to inform us of the chaotic battlefield.

 

[DaftMeat]

[Fifield]

2 minutes ago, --Valkyr said:

How did they buff her?   

She currently gets an average of in-range player health according to some square law.  From what I hear, it averages about 50% DR if Trinity herself is low.  The buff takes it back up to 75%.

Mind you, it is actually a nerf in solo.

[--DSP--]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

She currently gets an average of in-range player health according to some square law.  From what I hear, it averages about 50% DR if Trinity herself is low.  The buff takes it back up to 75%.

Mind you, it is actually a nerf in solo.

So this isn't a buff, this is still a nerf to the original. 75% reduction is close to nothing at all in endgame, not even late game, I don't know why you would have a problem with it.

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

Just bring back polarize % value , im feeling really dirty & guilty when i join corpus missions with a chroma with 500% Fury damage bonus and a gas+mag ignis and outdamage/outkill the mags i encounter lol

joking aside, for real, % is the way to go, and not only for mag but actually for every other damaging abilities...590+ replies on mag feedback thread, and whining aside, most are constructive analysis , that should tell you something..

[Fifield]

4 minutes ago, --Valkyr said:

So this isn't a buff, this is still a nerf to the original. 75% reduction is close to nothing at all in endgame, not even late game, I don't know why you would have a problem with it.

The imbalance in frames, even after the patch is ridiculous.  You do not fix the imbalance by buffing the most OP frame in the game.

More specifically the gulf between her and Oberon, Equinox and Nezha is a lot bigger and they'll never be able to compete unless EV is butchered.

What you think endgame is will change as DE eliminate the cheese.  Level 60 will become the new 80 etc.  Outside of cheese, 75% DR will be one of the strongest abilities in the game.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Fifield

[kajiss1]

Its something ¿? 

well yeah its something not much but something. 

there is any plan on looking the passives ? 

maybe buff the other valkir abilities like 1 , 3  ? 

Trinity, way not keep the damage reduction at 75% but make the heal global ? 

[PrVonTuckIII]

Good to know they realized how to progress from their last update.

[taiiat]

49 minutes ago, DYSEQTA said:

implement some AI that can scale in skill instead...

feel free to personally create Consumer Processors which can handle that AI.

literally the entire world would parade you as a hero if you could say... quadruple Single Thread performance.

[Ailith]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hyekka Masters: 

For now this is as simple as fixing the Hyekka Master’s Ignis dealing damage through walls.

Should you have anything else in mind, leave a comment below linking to your existing feedback thread, or simply discuss here.

I'm slightly hesitant to mention this, but the Hyekka Masters' Ignis causes damage to friendly units (the ground "hazards", specifically). While it's extremely amusing to watch Hyekka Masters cause chaos for their own faction, it remains a hazard to me if I Mind Control them with Nyx (ie: the fire still hurts me/allies). I'm not sure if it's possible to change how the fire hazards work (it seems like they're just the generic map hazards), but controlling how it damages friends/foes would be a nice change.

Also, Hyekka AI seems to be inconsistent when a Master is Mind Controlled. Sometimes they fight for you, sometimes they stay allied with Grineer.

[--collstro--]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity: Blessing: Damage Resistance is no longer calculated based on an Average, but instead a flat value simply capped at 75% (which can be achieved via use of Strength mods). We are working on making the squad UI show who is in range with the Tenno Affinity markers, it might not be ready for 18.13.2.

If I understand this correctly; that the maximum possible damage reduction is capped at 75% regardless of health or modding; then all this amounts to is yet another Trinity nerf since 75% is completely useless in anything other than DEAC ( which for those of you who don't know stands for DE Approved Content.)

Enemies' HP and shields scale into the billions at high levels yeah, that's nine zeroes. And their damage output scales with them. 75% damage reduction amounts to nothing.

And for those of you who say that DE doesn't intend us to fight enemies at that level, then I ask you why are they in the game? The simple fact that the handful of abilities that were remotely effective against level cap (9999) enemies have been nerfed into oblivion, blessing, WoL + EV, shield polarize, and so on. There has never been any weapon effective against enemies of that level since Damage 2.0 with the exception of Covert Lethality daggers, which will no doubt be nerfed again at some point and rendered useless.

DE if you won't balance anything around high level content, and nerf everything that is effective against high level content, then why even keep level 9999 enemies in the game? Just change the level cap to 300 or 500 and be done with it, Because if you're trying to balance this game around level 50 enemies then every frame, weapon and mod in this game needs to be nerfed; which will result in a massive nerf to your player base.

Edited June 1, 2016 by --collstro--

[--DSP--]

7 minutes ago, Fifield said:

The imbalance in frames, even after the patch is ridiculous.  You do not fix the imbalance by buffing the most OP frame in the game.

More specifically the gulf between her and Oberon, Equinox and Nezha is a lot bigger and they'll never be able to compete unless EV is butchered.

What you think endgame is will change as DE eliminate the cheese.  Level 60 will become the new 80 etc.  Outside of cheese, 75% DR will be one of the strongest abilities in the game.

How about instead of nerfing her, we buff Oberon instead?

Equinox is a solid frame herself, and she is arguably one of the best frame due to her scaling damage.

Nezha isn't even a healer.

[keen211]

So no revert on the excal slide blind? Literally everyone i've ever spoken to says this change was trash.

Also the change to bless is good but I'd still rather haver unlimited range. Too many ninjas flying around the map for me to keep track of them all.

[Xekrin]

26 minutes ago, Volkovyi said:

Consider adding more interactive HUD and UI design in the game to inform us of the chaotic battlefield.

That's a fairly old thread so I didnt reply there in fear of Nekro'ing it and catching the wrath of Danielle for doing so but I agree with 99% of every mockup.  Especially the cryopod one, just yesterday I was playing Frost and didn't notice my bubble over pod was gone, didn't see any chat indicators as my squad screamed BUBBLE at me.  Or that the pod was being beat all to hek and back.  How it managed to get so bad off with 3 others nearby I don't know.  But it was destroyed, we failed and I was to blame.  La-sigh.

 

The Trinity Bless 75% thing is rather simple (other than a total rework of all abilities, which I support because I have ideas about that).  Make bless work off health healed, so long as said health isn't trinity's.   Or make trinity's health on apply 50% of what other's do.

Also, consider self damage and cannabalism (Inaros) as being the cause of such loss of health.  I know its possible because many health loss possibilities do not trigger the Rage mod.

Link already gives 75% DR to Trinity, I simply do not understand why that is not utilized for the entire squad if the Blessing/Healing DR is such a problem.  Bless can be maintained just as constant as Link anyway.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Xekrin

[Urlan]

Some around the forums seem to be acting like the community made the abilities that are getting changed or that the players are responsible for 'cheese' this is illogical. The devs made the warframes with their skill sets to address the enemy scaling so that the warframes would be appealing and useful to players. The real situation is enemy scaling and what it represents to the game. In Warframe the community as a whole and the devs have been making a point of balance. In game design you can't really have balance when both sides are unequal. In our current state, enemy scaling is the elephant in the room and warps everything around it. Enemies start with more endurance, similar damage, and of course numbers on the player characters. This by itself is not too much of an issue as the player can get stronger but players have a limit to their growth; mod slots, the mod levels themselves, and the amount of mod points they have to use towards modding. To have parity between the enemies and players, the enemies can not scale infinitely - they have no plateau - to compete weapons like the Tonkor exist in their current state; Trinity gives damage reduction with her heals; and crowd control that guarantees a chance in matches shows like Mirage's Prism having no LoS when Excalibur's was nerfed to have LoS until the recent patches. While I don't think the previous changes in response to Viver and now due to Draco are the best options; if we address the real issue of enemy scaling, we will eliminate the vacuum effect and the feelings 'cheese' compared to over used answers created specifically to answer those self made situations.

What I propose will take time to implement but should take into consideration proposed hinted re-balancing changes like damage 3.0 easily due to the more robust nature of the already existing nature of mods. I suggest changing enemies to use enemy versions of our mod, mod points, and mod slots system. What this will do is keep a sense of rising difficulty while also creating a power plateau for enemies that already exists for players - nothing in the game will have an infinite imbalance - instead having to make use of mods for their power as we players already make use of. One of the benefits of this approach are its flexibility; ease of understanding of enemies versus players; and also makes more sense creatively why anyone else besides us would want upgrades like forma, exilus adapters, and catalyst/reactors. This allows for instance, the dynamic removal or change of core mechanics like damage mods since to improve statistics, enemies and players will be relying on a similar mod pool, available mod slots, and potential upgrades to represent progression. The hazards of this approach are having to create a dynamic matrix of essentially truly modular enemies with greater potential power as they scaled levels to higher enemy levels and more upgrades, mods, and mod pools become available to the enemy faction to spawn with. I do not think that this is an insurmountable issue however, as I suspect the game already does a bit of dynamic building of entities as is, though this would probably be more draw of having to keep and process an entire pool of enemy mods available for dynamic use based on enemy level. Essentially, for the sacrifice of possibly more overhead, we create a system where the enemy factions can be rebuilt for player challenge presented and while also allowing more flexibility with future mod balance and scaling.

I would be very pleased if this alternative form of scaling would be considered as a potential alternative to existing scaling and difficulty methods or be used to help address perceived character to enemy imbalances and help reduce 'cheese' on both sides of the fence. If we can address the core issues of the game's balance, we can eliminate some of the feelings of betrayal on both sides of the community and help come towards something everyone wants but disagrees on the methods - balance.