How Should Riven Mod's be Changed?

[(PSN)skip2435]

5 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

See, I wouldn't even mind the ridiculous RNG, if you could easily get Riven. If the system is pushing us to chase the perfect Riven, and is putting RNG on RNG to make us roll and roll, at least let us get the Rivens easier, eh? If you're going to make a gambling booth, makes sense to let people in easier, you know?

Agreed Kuva farming honestly sucks sometimes I just wish they'd alleviate the grind if DE is going to make us roll the dice every time we get a new Riven mod or try to reroll said mod after putting effort into getting it.

[Vox_Preliator]

Remove them entirely and buff underused weapons a tad.

If that's not an option, I would have implemented them like this:  Handcraft every Riven for each weapon, basically turn them into weapon augments that are consistent between players, upgrade them with Kuva instead of Endo/Credits, and make Veiled Rivens a generic item that turn into the Riven for the weapon we equipped it on to complete the challenge. 

As it is, I'm actively denying the existence of Rivens to myself and trashing every single one I get because they're basicaly the antithesis of everything I love about Warframe and the fact that they were implemented saddens me.  I'm still hoping this is all a big setup to some massive upheaval, like once we have Rivens for everything, the number of Rivens reach critical mass and they all disappear, the fragments coming together to form the thing they were originally (BTW, was it ever confirmed if it was a Cephalon or a Sentient whole bits turned into Rivens, or is that still ambiguous?) and we get a new event and/or raid against this superboss, and make it a whole thing where the Tenno get brought down to where they were before the introduction of Rivens.

[IfritKajiTora]

19 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

See, I wouldn't even mind the ridiculous RNG, if you could easily get Riven. If the system is pushing us to chase the perfect Riven, and is putting RNG on RNG to make us roll and roll, at least let us get the Rivens easier, eh? If you're going to make a gambling booth, makes sense to let people in easier, you know?

Exactly. For example make point system for completing sorties and be abble to buy one RIVEN mod every three days.

[Madway7]

24 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

See, I wouldn't even mind the ridiculous RNG, if you could easily get Riven. If the system is pushing us to chase the perfect Riven, and is putting RNG on RNG to make us roll and roll, at least let us get the Rivens easier, eh? If you're going to make a gambling booth, makes sense to let people in easier, you know?

Still doesn't make sense that people would have to pay a higher cost for each attempt with the same chances to win something imo. 

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Madway7

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

15 minutes ago, Madway7 said:

Still doesn't make sense that people would have to pay a higher cost for each attempt with the same chances to win something imo. 

 

Welcome to F2P gaming. Everything that benefit players will be RNG. Anything that benefit enemies will be consistent (in their favor).

Also, Riven should be non-tradable system that you work toward. Not an RNG swap-fest. How is this suppose to give a sense of progression when one can potentially re-roll infinite time without improvement?

Edited December 12, 2016 by (PS4)A_SimpleName

[Zerathos_Dagon]

The main thing that needs to change here is the overabundance of RNG in them. You're already spending tons of Kuva on them, and then you get completely randomized results as well. I could understand the increasing roll cost, the randomization of which weapon it will be and the even the Riven mod cap. The increasing roll cost is needed so as to not enable people to endlessly roll until they get their 'god' mod, and instead give them a hint of 'ok you rolled enough now'. The randomization of weapons is needed because if that is removed, everyone would just make Riven mods for the Simulor/Tonkor/Soma/etc. and the unused weapons (for which Rivens was meant) would still be left in the dust. And finally the Riven mod cap I can understand since it costs so much space on DE's servers to store the tons of Riven mods, which have lots of data attached to them.

However, what I do think should change is the randomized stats. I personally think we should be able to 'lock in' a stat we want, or possible just re-roll a single stat (instead of everything), by spending more Kuva. Granted it should be rather expensive, with locking-in/re-rolling a single stat costing more Kuva for each one you alread locked-in/re-rolled. But I think it would remove much of the RNG and add a lot more fun and viability to it, In addition, with a cap of only 15 Riven mods, I think we should be allowed to fill those spots with mods we want, instead of being forced to have RNG fill those slots for us.

[(XBOX)CubicRoyalViper]

I would like to see a cap on the rising re-roll costs, and the ability to "lock in" good stats, as there is already too much RNG present in this system. I also would like to see improvements to the way they are traded (namely the fact that you are unable to see stats/mastery rank, and have to rely on what the other player says, which is exploitable)

I was unlucky enough to experience firsthand an example of the flaws with the current trading system for Rivens. Yesterday, after completing the War Within, i went and got a riven mod from the daily sorties, which turned out to be a tonkor riven mod. I then proceeded to trade it for an ignis riven mod, which supposedly had "good" stats, and was disappointed to discover that it was not only a poor roll, but two mastery ranks above me (I'm MR14, but only because i don't enjoy level grinding on weapons i wont use). 

[JustSneaky]

This is, how rivens mod are going right now. Credit to Arkvold.

Quote

 

Okay, so we've established that Rivens are basically arbitrarily-random mods that suffer escalating costs to reroll them despite the fact that rerolling doesn't necessarily provide increasing benefit and can indeed make a mod worse.  We've established that Rivens can have patently-impossible or near-impossible unveiling conditions, requiring you to game or even exploit the system mechanics to pull them off.  Worst of all, we've established that Riven mods are poorly coded for storage and thus a cap on how many you have was instituted to save DE's servers the strain of handling them.

I am asking this as a serious, straightforward question: at what point was this system considered successful enough for implementation?

From what I've seen of them, Rivens have failed unilaterally at every point along their design and have not reached any design goals stated by DE.  They do not encourage the use of non-meta weapons, because nobody wants Rivens for non-meta weapons.  Even with Riven Disposition being a thing, a casual look at trade chat will reveal what weapons people want Rivens for - Tonkor, Simulor, Soma, Boltor.  The very essence of meta weaponry.  They are not guaranteed to be worth their capacity - they have capacity costs similar to Primed Mods and an MR-lock as well that can go up to MR16, but a Riven with -damage or -multishot can potentially make a weapon incapable of being used as a weapon - something no other mod in the game can do, and for good reason.

"But just reroll it" you might say.  Well, sure, you can reroll it - but you aren't guaranteed to get a better one.  You're almost certainly not going to get one that's good enough to lift a non-meta weapon into viable status (the entire stated purpose of Riven mods) unless you have God's own luck.  There's no rhyme or reason between their capacity costs and MR-locks and their power.  It's possible for a Riven to increase stats on a weapon that the weapon doesn't even have, resulting in a more-or-less wasted modifier.

With this much arbitrary randomness, and the ever-escalating costs of rerolling, you're eventually going to get to the point where you can't, in good conscience, reroll it any further.  Then what do you do?  Trade it?  Nobody buys Rivens with 5+ rerolls on them, unless they are A). godly and B). for a meta weapon, at which point you should be using them yourself.  Dissolve it?  It's worth maybe 30 endo - there are silver mods worth more.  Sell it?  It's worth a similarly-pitiful amount of credits.

There is nothing satisfying about Riven mods, except winning the Riven lottery and getting an awesome one.  Given that these things are now allegedly the most common Sortie reward, that's more possible, but still the Warframe equivalent of getting a jackpot on a rigged slot machine.  Why should the hardest content currently available in the game reward you with mods that can render a weapon actually useless?

TL;DR - Please save your storage resources, and take Riven mods back to the drawing board.  A few sanity checks in the RNG to ensure that these mods start at being "worth the effort of getting and unveiling one" and get more awesome from there would be a good start.  Using algorithms with limited variables to generate the mods so that they can be stored more efficiently (and reduce the overall randomness at the same time, win-win) would allow the cap on them can be relaxed or removed.  These two changes, alone, would be all you need to make the Riven mod system a lot more bearable.

 

My personal take: I was expecting riven mods like Kela de Taym mods, not multipliers to current stats.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by JustSneaky

[low1991]

3 hours ago, (PS4)skip2435 said:

So with a lot of people complaining about the way that Riven mods currently work I have to wonder, what exactly needs to be changed about them?

All DE need to do is. Change Riven into something that isn't a mandatory mod like a passive ability or an active effect on trigger. (ie, passive ammo regen/ +x% crit chance on headshot/ etc), giving more variety in builds and not just 'damage', 'min-max', 'critical build', etc.

Or an aura when equipped (holding), like +x% damage dealt convert to health.

Edited December 12, 2016 by low1991

[(PSN)skip2435]

24 minutes ago, JustSneaky said:

This is, how rivens mod are going right now. Credit to Arkvold.

My personal take: I was expecting riven mods like Kela de Taym mods, not multipliers to current stats.

 

I completely agree with what your saying and I agree that Warframe has practically turned into a casino simulator with people sitting in trade tab all day watching the prices on rift mods for meta weapons. According to trade tab most rift mods except maybe god rolls outside of meta weapons are practically useless.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

In my ideal world these riven mods would essentially be like augments that you get from syndicates.  but that not only requires DE to be a lot more creative but also manually go back and buff each weapon so they are even worth considering.  This current system is mostly fine.  The disposition system isn't perfect.  but My only major complaints about them now is the downsides not having caps (like being able to get absolutely no damage is stupid,) allowing modifiers on weapons that gain zero benefit like crit modifiers on weapons that can't crit, and your MR level not mattering to the system.

my one and only riven mod wants me to be mr 16 to use and i'm only MR 9.  I'd be fine with up to 3 above my current MR.  but almost double is just stupid.

[malekas]

1) The values on the Riven mods should be fixed according to disposition. The crit chance for a strong disposition weapon will always be the same, and the damage increase for a weak disposition will always be the same. No more random values. And especially, no more negative values.

 

2) When rerolling you can lock stats, but in order to reroll you have to have at least one stat unlocked.

 

3) the reroll cost should be fixed, not increasing infinitely, and the cost should reflect the disposition.

 

4) Create a token system for the Sorties, eliminating our current trash reward system and making Riven mods a little easier to get.

 

5) For the love of God do not remove any particular Riven mod category from the Sortie rewards. The trade economy couldn't handle it.

[ArbitUHM]

I'd like the ability to take a chance to randomize the weapon, because there are some weapons I legit hate and refuse to use (I got a Simulor mod). However, it should have a substantial kuva cost so people don't use it to reroll until they get a Soma/Tonkor/TopTierMetaWeapon mod.

People just want to use the system to create god-tier mods for their god-tier weapons. NO. If you get a Gorgon mod, use that S#&$. I got a Stradavar mod and it makes it sortie capable. The +200-250% damage roll is pretty common and that is all you need to make virtually any weapon into a sortie capable weapon.

Locking stats would break the system and just make every Riven mod into an ultragodtier mod. Really, Riven mods are so ridiculously good compared to regular mods and even primed mods (and much, much, MUCH cheaper to rank up) that I'm surprised that people have the gall to ask to make them even better.

[(PSN)skip2435]

12 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

I'd like the ability to take a chance to randomize the weapon, because there are some weapons I legit hate and refuse to use (I got a Simulor mod). However, it should have a substantial kuva cost so people don't use it to reroll until they get a Soma/Tonkor/TopTierMetaWeapon mod.

People just want to use the system to create god-tier mods for their god-tier weapons. NO. If you get a Gorgon mod, use that S#&$. I got a Stradavar mod and it makes it sortie capable. The +200-250% damage roll is pretty common and that is all you need to make virtually any weapon into a sortie capable weapon.

Locking stats would break the system and just make every Riven mod into an ultragodtier mod. Really, Riven mods are so ridiculously good compared to regular mods and even primed mods (and much, much, MUCH cheaper to rank up) that I'm surprised that people have the gall to ask to make them even better.

Yep damage is generally common from the rolls I've gotten so far so thats a plus I guess

[(PSN)SektorZR1]

remove zoom

[malekas]

6 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

It's salt of people who cant roll / cant afford good ones.

You come off as an elitist. I could say the opposite of what you did and it would hold just as true.

 

The only people who like Riven Mods are people who have the luck of the gods or more plat than they know what to do with.

[Arniox]

6 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Not 100% true. If you look through any posts I have made about Rivens, you'll find that I have been overwhelmingly disapproving of the entire concept right from the start, noticing that upon release, Rivens did frankly disgusting things to even the battered and abused game balance that we have, boosting meta weapons into orbit. I don't heavily use rifles or launchers, I'm a shotgun and bow chap, and then I got a Riven mod for my favourite bow. A Daikyu mod which gave it +186% Damage, +112% Status Duration, +95% Toxin. My opinion has completely...remained the same.

 

I see what DE are trying to do with Rivens, but I also see the ways in which their implementation has failed, even with Riven Disposition, and I think that the way Disposition works still needs to be severely overhauled. It shouldn't be possible for weapons with a Faint Disposition to roll boosts to Damage or Critical Chance at all, for instance. Faint Disposition Riven mods should only be able to roll utility effects, things like modifiers to Status duration and effects, plus or minus Zoom, ammunition mutation or reload speed benefits, that sort of thing. The fact that it is possible to roll a Riven which gives extra crit and damage to a Tonkor or a Synoid Simulor means that the system continues to fail hard at its stated goal.

 

 

So, no. It's not just jealousy of your 'pro build'. It is observing that Riven mods, as they currently exist, do not properly serve the purpose which DE stated them to have, and are instead having a potentially negative effect on game balance. For instance, the existence of Riven mods means that we are now almost certainly never getting a rebalancing Damage 3.0.

 

I think personally, in a lot of ways, you're right. But I don't think they're bad for the game. They add a little bit of flare to weapons you might have. Ik they boost meta weapons, but because of the riven disposition, i'm finding more and more often, it's only the truly lucky that are blessed with RNG that break the game. Most of the time, it's fine. Maybe if they increased the riven disposition even more, then it would feel less game breaking. But as it sits with me now, I really like the system. Also, I use shotguns and bows as well. And it's really nice to have both a riven for my dread, and Paris prime (which I use more than my dread)

[zultor]

My suggestions:

 

1) Remove rivens from the sortie drop table.   You should get one riven when you complete the sortie in addition to another item from the drop table after all you still need to do the stupid challenge to unveil it and farm kuva to roll it.   Maybe make the guaranteed riven from the latest set (secondary when they come out) and leave the other ones in the loot table so you could get two.    Then when all the sets are out you get a random one guaranteed and potentially another one when completing a sortie.

2) Redo how the riven "level" modifies the weapons..   Why already great weapons get that much better like soma, tonkor, simulor, etc rivens is beyond me.  Those weapons don't need buffs so make it so that rivens for these dramatically change the weapon.   Strong rivens are for weapons that are outdated/classed and should be almost pure buffs, very few negatives, and the weaker rivens have less and less good buffs but start adding more and more "alternatives" to the weapons.    Don't make already good crit weapons ridiculously good with +crit chance and damage but instead make them very different playstyle wise.

3) Cap the max kuva level needed to reroll.   Making rivens useless because they have been rerolled too many times isn't adding fun to the game.

 

[Almagnus1]

Let me add/replace the modifiers on the riven mods at like 1k Kuva per operation.

That would resolve **A LOT** of the issues people have about the system, and also allow us to experiment with the weapons to allow us to personalize the weapons.

[Slaviar]

It should be possible to reset roll count to 0 and lock one stat for lot of Kuva and transmute four rivens into one veiled riven,

Other than that, stats should be fixed (say, +100% dmg) and affected by disposition (for example x0.5 on faint, x1 on neutral, x1.5 on strong) and their presence should be based on weapon's stats. So no IPS for elemental weapons or crit bonus for weapons with 2.5% chance

[(PSN)dursereg]

NO more sentinel riven please. Hell I'll take back the piece poop Flux rifle over laser stringer mods any day

[kaliazane]

9 hours ago, malekas said:

You come off as an elitist. I could say the opposite of what you did and it would hold just as true.

 

The only people who like Riven Mods are people who have the luck of the gods or more plat than they know what to do with.

Not everyone is suppose to instantly get everything. This system is suppose to stay active for months or years to come. But naturally people who have no ways of getting it instantly will be complaining.

[Phyrak]

Certain things need to be baselined

Strong disposition should always give damage at base along with a greater chance of specific element or crit chances/damage depending on weapon

Neutral is a mix of strong and weak

Weak always gives utility, never damaging stats imo because of the tiering of weapons

[GreyEnneract]

10 hours ago, malekas said:

1) The values on the Riven mods should be fixed according to disposition. The crit chance for a strong disposition weapon will always be the same, and the damage increase for a weak disposition will always be the same. No more random values. And especially, no more negative values.

 

2) When rerolling you can lock stats, but in order to reroll you have to have at least one stat unlocked.

 

3) the reroll cost should be fixed, not increasing infinitely, and the cost should reflect the disposition.

 

4) Create a token system for the Sorties, eliminating our current trash reward system and making Riven mods a little easier to get.

 

5) For the love of God do not remove any particular Riven mod category from the Sortie rewards. The trade economy couldn't handle it.

Since I doubt their current iteration will be changed to be more interesting like with augments, basically this.

To be realistic though, DE announced they're releasing secondary Rivens by the end of the year already. (As a side note, Shotguns where?)
So I'm going to assume they'll go the way of every new mechanic introduced into the game.

Release, make a few small changes, then wait a year to overhaul it instead of fixing the problems while they're hot.

[malekas]

6 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Not everyone is suppose to instantly get everything. This system is suppose to stay active for months or years to come. But naturally people who have no ways of getting it instantly will be complaining.

It's not even about getting it instantly. People who get bad rng could end trying for months to get a good riven mod for a weapon they like, with nothing to show for their work. At least with the current system you can see progress. I can see that primed mod gaining ranks and getting stronger. I know exactly how much endo I need to max it out, and I can see myself reaching that goal. With riven mods you might as well be blindfolded and shooting behind you trying to hit a bottlecap.

 

That, or I shell out money to DE for a poorly thought out system that is doing nothing but hurting the game.

 

I'm happy for you that you're one of the haves, but don't discount the salt of the have nots. They have legitimate gripes.