Dev Workshop: New Mods Part 3!

[[DE]Drew]

(This Dev Workshop builds on the information discussed in our previous Riven workshops. You can read them here: Part 1 & Part 2)

Additional Riven Slots:

The option to purchase additional Riven Slots was added in Update 19.3.2 for those players who wish to go beyond the initial 15 capacity. For many players, reaching that capacity is still a long-term goal, as they gradually acquire more through Sorties and trading. However, some players who have fully embraced the Riven life and are already looking for ways to increase their collection. For that reason, we’ve included the option to buy a bundle of three additional slots for 60 Platinum. 

So why limit initial capacity to 15 and why sell a bundle for more? In our first Riven workshop we stated that the maximum is a reflection of our desire to encourage creativity and choice. We want each Riven in your collection to be carefully considered. Should you keep it, dissolve it, or trade it? Maybe you choose to focus on Rivens for more powerful weapons, or since those are already capable, maybe you’re a curator of the more obscure weapon Rivens. 

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection. But, like in many other parts of Warframe, we want to give players the option to expand on the systems that appeal to them. With that in mind, we included the option to increase capacity at a cost that reflects the initial goal of meaningful Riven choice and reflects the value of Rivens in the overall economy. If someone chooses to purchase additional slots, they are investing in the Riven system and in Warframe as a whole. 

We still require a hard cap of 60 slots because Riven Mods are so big compared to any other  item data, which all gets pulled in when Warframe queries a player’s inventory. If this technical limitation can be overcome, we’ll post updated information. Additional comments on Riven capacity can be found in our Road to 15/15 workshop.

It’s worth reiterating what was said in our first Riven workshop, “As Developers, we want to emphasize: nothing is set in stone. Warframe is known to be always changing and adapting. Remember that groups work best together when respect is shown, so while we can and do look past a lot of vitriol to find what you think, it's better that you express your thought without it.”

With that in mind, let’s move on to some exciting plans for Update 19.5! 

Secondary & (potentially) Shotgun Riven Plans: 

As you may have already heard, we plan to include Secondary Rivens with our 19.5 update but if possible, we’ll also include Shotgun Rivens! Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has a chance of being either a Rifle, Shotgun, or Secondary Riven. The exact chance for each is still being worked on. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 

 

Kuva Cycling Cost cap:

After reviewing the impact of the Kuva Cycling cost changes (which can be be found here), we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva. So once a Cycle reaches 3500, subsequent Cycles will also be 3500 instead of increasing further. This change will come in a future update and will apply to existing Rivens that are already above the cap. If you spend more than 3500 on a Riven, it will be brought back down to 3500 for subsequent Cycles. However, Kuva will not be refunded retroactively if you spend more, so please keep this in mind. 

 

We’ll be watching and reviewing the impact of the new Mods as they propagate through the playerbase, so we look forward to seeing what kind of interesting combinations arise. As always, we’ll make changes as necessary. We appreciate your feedback and understanding as we gradually expand the Riven system. If plans change, we’ll update this workshop. 
 
Thanks for reading! 

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

looking forward to the release on PS4

-Edit- (Moved other post up here)

Could you guys take a look at this?

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel
added link from other post made

[NightmareT12]

Hey Drew, just wondering why we just can't get a system that allows us to choose which "kind of Riven" (Rifle/Bow, Shottie, Secondary, Melee) we get out of the Cephalon himself instead of that being RNG too. I mean, wouldn't it be easier to get a "Riven offering" from the sortie for the very same chance, and then let us interchange it with the Cephalon for a shot at weapon we may like? I mean the weapon will be random after all, and there's so many...

On the rest pretty much agree so nothing to say for now at least.

Edited December 14, 2016 by NightmareT12

[AM-Bunny]

Hm. Riven dilution (cutting chances of obtaining a Rifle Riven to 1/3 once shotgun and secondaries are added) sounds concerning to me. I'd ask that by the time 19.5 comes out you investigate ways to expand Riven acquisition.

Perhaps some way to obtain them beyond Sorties, or make them a guaranteed Sortie reward.

EDIT: Actually it's cutting Rifle Riven chances to 1/4 the way it's written. It sounds as though it will be 25% Rifle, 25% Shotgun, 50% Secondary. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by AM-Bunny

[JacketUnHoly]

On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, [DE]Drew said:

Our current plan is to include these new Mods in the Sortie reward pool so that if you receive a Riven reward, it has an equal chance of being either a Primary Riven Mod (Rifle/Shotgun) or a Secondary Riven Mod. We do not plan to change the chance to receive a Riven Mod as a Sortie reward at this time. 

Oh god please no.

Please take a look at sortie rewards as a whole before adding more Rivens. There have been plenty of opinions and ideas voiced on the forums already. Like this one:

On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, [DE]Drew said:

we're planning to include a maximum Cycle cost cap of 3500 Kuva

Now THIS I am happy about! Thank you.

Edited December 17, 2016 by infamouscycle

[(PSN)Quo_Tee]

Why not just have one universal "veiled riven mod". If you equipped this riven mod on a primary weapon and do the challenge you get a primary riven in return, if you equip the mod on a secondary and complete the challenge you get a secondary riven, so on so fourth.

[TheSeannachaidh]

I still only get 2k endo from Sorties, so I don't have to worry about Riven changes.

Edited December 14, 2016 by TheSeannachaidh

[Kracken]

`Update 19.5` so .. next week ?!

[AdunSaveMe]

10 minutes ago, [DE]Drew said:

The point in limiting capacity is meaningful selection rather than a ubiquitous collection.

Unless you have money, in which case ignore this line.

So are the new riven types just going to fill the same cap? Why did you put a price tag on a system that isn't done and still needs work? What about the massive amounts of feedback on things like the increasing kuva costs, or the RNG, or the fact that it's a "grind till you're lucky" deal and not a long-term goal you can work towards, or the fact that they're practically mandatory mods if you get certain rolls?

You could have at least waited a while before adding a plat bypass option.

There have been a lot of good thoughts on rivens so far, but no action on any of it yet. How much of that feedback is going to be incorporated? What are the plans? Are we having any actual effect on how rivens change? It helps to know these things. Not demanding action, merely requesting information.

But to be honest, rivens don't feel like something you work towards, something you work on, or anything other than pure RNG luck. This system is entirely grinding until you get a good roll. That's it. And there are so few combinations of useful rivens, and such an obvious set of combinations that outclass the rest, meaning the intention of adding build variety is gone. Customizing your own builds is impossible because it's entirely RNG-driven. Putting RNG on every single thing and having no player choice in the matter is not always the best course of action.

Edited December 14, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[SilverZs]

7 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Hey Drew, just wondering why we just can't get a system that allows us to choose which "kind of Riven" (Rifle/Bow, Shottie, Secondary, Melee) we get out of the Cephalon himself instead of that being RNG too. I mean, wouldn't it be easier to get a "Riven offering" from the sortie for the very same chance, and then let us interchange it with the Cephalon for a shot at weapon we may like? I mean the weapon will be random after all, and there's so many...

On the rest pretty much agree so nothing to say for now at least.

I would be more inclined to have this system which rewards player choice rather then frustrates players with RNGGate. WE, the players, have constantly said we want less RNG and more choice. The sortie reward system was said to be worked onto present us with some form of ticket/points system where we can exchange it for a reward of our choosing. This would be one gigantic big step in the correct direction.

And additional slots for MODS being introduced into a system that at its base function has no such restriction, is counter-productive to player growth and only favours those who have platinum. This is a no-brainer bad developement choice. And the terrible choices over the last 1.5 years you've been making is why I no longer financially support you.

Edited December 14, 2016 by SilverZs

[unknow99]

1 minute ago, Kracken said:

`Update 19.5` so .. next week ?!

Soon(tm) ...

[trunks013]

for the riven capacity i understand the fact of buying slots. But it would be cool if we had more slots unlocked lets say with mastery ranks and quest so without plat we can still go a little upper than the 15 current cap ^.^ 

Would be cool to just add secondary in the reward pool of sortie and just reduce lets say Nitain and Endo to compensate ?

 

I know i know i'm kinda dreaming but a guy got to try ^.^ 

[Alcoholism]

Imho I don't see why we can't just have predetermined integer variables for Riven Mods instead of completely random float variables.

Also, if you're able to measure Riven disposition - that means you're able to figure out which weapons are used the most and which are used the least or which is more powerful - however you want to view it. Why not then just make Riven Mods for the weapons not in the "Faint" disposition category? Clearly they don't need them right? Then you can boost Riven Mod stats for all the weapons that aren't used as much so we see more variety in the game.

[---UMBRA---]

Good, But you need to change additional riven mods slot price from 60 to 30, because it is GODDAMN EXPENSIVE.

Edited December 14, 2016 by ---UMBRA---

[Stoner]

And I keep getting Endo reward every sorties despite being "uncommon" when Riven mods are "common". I think there's something wrong with the drop tables. 

On topic of shotgun riven mods, imo this is a bad idea. If they have similar stats to rifle rivens, that's going to be incredibly OP. 

As a whole, I think rivens should boost stats for the more weaker weapons and not the already overpowered ones, like Soma prime, Tigris prime. 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Stoner74

[Galatea]

Lovely!  ♥

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

also @[DE]Drew, may i direct your attention to this

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel

[Ocfos]

Will Secondary Riven mods be able to work on their Akimbo counterparts, or will they be split into separate such as AkVasto and Vasto/Vasto Prime? That's my main intrigue about this.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

Unless the sortie reward system is changed from a drop table to a token system you can count on me to completely ignore the riven mod system all together.

[Somniavi]

Is a riven that thing that comes up as 2000 Endo?

[AM-Bunny]

1 minute ago, Ocfos said:

Will Secondary Riven mods be able to work on their Akimbo counterparts, or will they be split into separate such as AkVasto and Vasto/Vasto Prime? That's my main intrigue about this.

Almost assuredly split, since they behave similar to Augment mods. New Loka's Winds of Purity for instance only works on Furis, not Afuris.

[Ubarruk]

Something id suggest when 19.5 comes out for rivens and having them all in one "pool" is when you recieve one you get a popup that shows [Veiled riven 1] [veiled riven 2] [Veiled riven 3] (Like discover cards in hearthstone) or when you complete the challenge a choice between which riven type that then becomes a random for the chosen type.  (Also add in Positive/ Negative Values for range, radius, and accuracy (maybe dual elements as a single modifier so you could have say, corrosive and electric on one mod, and both damage types on the weapon))

[AdunSaveMe]

10 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

Imho I don't see why we can't just have predetermined integer variables for Riven Mods instead of completely random float variables.

Honestly, this would be better. But if the intention is to make old weapons more usable... then the rivens for those weapons become mandatory for them. At that point, you might as well just directly buff the weapons themselves.

I feel like rivens aren't even needed. Buff weapons when they need to be buffed. Rivens do not make build variety, or increase viability, they're not a good long-term goal. They need a complete redesign, not little tweaks to their existing form.

[Syvarin]

Before I begin, I want to say this is not intended as criticism or complaint. I do, however, believe the Riven system could be improved in several ways.

First, the stated purpose for Riven mods:

We want to give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal. We want to give new life to the Arsenal in a non-static way. Riven Mods were added to incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style. We’re all familiar with blazing through missions to the Extraction Point, but this system gives players new challenges that require them to test the creative limits of their Arsenal in their quest to Unveil their new Mods. Yes, meta weapons are in the selection pool, but Riven Mods are not needed to make this gear (like the Tonkor or Synoid Simulor) more powerful. What they can do is add an interesting buff to a comparatively underpowered weapon in order to encourage players to think outside of that meta box. This is why we have prevented players from choosing what weapon the Riven Mod will be for; if we didn’t, we would end up with millions of Soma Mods and none for the Gorgon. The exponential Cycling costs are there to encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’. For those of you who want to find the best Mod possible, that avenue is available to you, but that is not the goal behind this system.

In summary, the sort of scenario DE hoped would happen:
A player gets a riven mod for the Miter. The mod does not grant a perfect stat boost, but it makes things interesting enough that the player pulls their dusty Miter out of storage and tries it out. The player finds they actually enjoy this weapon they passed over because its stats weren't good enough before.

A scenario of what is actually happening:
After a few weeks of sorties, a player gets a riven mod for the Miter. It grants boosts to crit chance and crit damage on a weapon that never deals critical hits. Also, the player sold their Miter after mastering it because it wasn't interesting enough to keep and inventory space is limited.  Then they got annoyed when the Panthera came out and required a Miter to build. They went grinding to get it a second time and then used it to build the Panthera. They will not go grinding for it a third time just so they can spend hours ranking it up to forma it multiple times so they can put their now heavily rerolled riven mod into it. In short, the player got a riven mod they didn't want and will never use.

I'm not saying things never go as DE hoped they would. My very first riven mod was for the Sybaris, which I did not previously like. Since I could use my riven mod to give it red crits, I put a catalyst and seven forma into my Dex Sybaris, and now it's a pretty decent weapon. Not one I use regularly, but I do like it.  Stories like that one seem to be fairly rare, though.

Players want Riven mods for the weapons they already like. Not only do those weapons have stats that are good to begin with, but they have familiar playstyles and in most cases have already had several forma and an Orokin catalyst inserted.  With a limit of 15 Riven mods, it's extremely unlikely a player will rebuild a weapon they mastered and sold just because they received a Riven mod for that weapon. Instead they will just be disappointed and annoyed that their Riven mod was for something that is useless to them.

 

Changes to help fulfill Riven mods fulfill their stated purpose: (Some of which rely on each other to make the changes viable. These are meant to be a group, not individual suggestions that would each help.)

Remove weapon specificity from Riven mods. Rifle riven mods should be able to be installed in any rifle.
This removes one of the layers of RNG, making the system much simpler and easier to use. It would prevent players from being upset about getting mods for useless weapons and it would also remove the annoyance of getting traits that don't matter to a particular weapon.

Have the Riven mod's traits affect the cost of using it. A flat 18 points for every Riven mod makes no sense. Each positive trait should add to the cost and each negative trait should reduce it.
I realize this would take effort, but it makes sense. A mod that grants higher damage, higher critical chance, higher critical damage, and multishot should be prohibitively expensive to install. A mod that grants ice damage, less recoil, and less damage to infested should not. Obviously each trait couldn't be assigned a whole number of points, so partial points and rounding would be necessary.

Increase the cost of rerolling Riven mods.
This is to balance having every riven be able to applied to every weapon of the same type. Rerolling them repeatedly should be as expensive or even more expensive than it was when the mods first came out.

Make stronger Riven disposition reduce negative traits and lower the cost of installing them.
Currently, stronger Riven disposition actually makes negative traits even worse. Since the idea is to actually use these in weapons that aren't used as often, the reverse should be true. It also makes sense to reduce the overall cost of installing them in these weapons so that better Riven mods can be used in weaker weapons.

Limit the worst negative traits to lower numbers.
No one will use a mod that gives -116% damage. It guarantees the mod will be rerolled and is frustrating. The idea is to create interesting mods that may be used despite the negatives, not to make them completely unusable.

Remove randomness between two rolls of the same trait.
It's unnecessary RNG and increases the amount of stored data for each Riven mod. It may add uniqueness but it wouldn't work well with assigning point costs to the mods based on their traits.

Have traits that grant base damage types (puncture/impact/slash) add it as a percentage of base damage instead of a percentage of base damage type.
It may seem unnecessary since I'm suggesting Riven mods not have an associated weapon, but this would add customizability. If players want their Amprex to deal impact damage along with electricity, it would be nice to give them a way to do it.

Additions to the pool of possible weapon traits:
Radiation, Magnetic, Viral, Corrosive, Explosive, and Gas damage
Electric, Cold, Heat, and Toxin damage that does not combine with other elements - allowing players to create weapons that deal both heat and cold damage, for example.
Other effects like explosion range, beam range, less self damage - if any such traits are rolled the mod is flagged as being for a particular weapon type and conflicting types are excluded from the rest of the traits on the mod. (That is, a mod could not have both beam range and explosion range on it, but it could have explosion range and lower self damage.)

(I apparently wrote this post with poor timing, and originally put it at the end of the previous Riven mod thread.)

[NightmareT12]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

Why not just have one universal "veiled riven mod". If you equipped this riven mod on a primary weapon and do the challenge you get a primary riven in return, if you equip the mod on a secondary and complete the challenge you get a secondary riven, so on so fourth.

I think the way it works is when you get it veiled the weapon is already decided? I'm not too sure though.