sortie tokens: good for us, a shot in the foot for DE

[(PSN)mr_chainsaw555]

so, since the release of rivens, sorties have been quite the object of controversy, mainly due to the fact that, while being classed as a common reward, is a surprsing rarity among players who run them

thinking it'll be supposedly "better", a few tenno have suggested a sortie token system (or as i like to call it: the "Chuck E. Sortie's" system"), where players just buy the rewards they want to hasten the acquisition of those coveted rivens 

while you may think this sounds good on paper, this is quite a short-sighted suggestion disguised as a request for instant gratification, my reasoning for this is:

1. nothing but rivens would be worth buying (unless your that one hipster who's gonna buy endo, which tbh you really should be running hieracon instead)

2. while people have requested for this Chuck E. Sortie's to stock arcanes and other rewards of it's ilk, this would ultimately result in the quick and full abandonment of the trials due how easy sorties are to run in comparison to trials

3. once people realize a new weapon's coming out, everyone would stock up on as many tokens as possible and swarm to this Chuck E. Sortie's to buy as many rivens as they can carry, and keep unveiling them until they get a riven for this weapon, diluting the purpose of rivens significantly, while a cap on tokens has been pitched, as the orginal iteration of the 100 void trace cap has proven, people don't like small caps on currencies 

4.*insert power-creep meme here*

5. once people either get rivens for what they want/need, Chuck E. Sortie's would immediately outlive it's usefullness, leaving people to abandon it fairly quickly

look i've been burned by the RNG of sorties  with my constant reward of endo and maduari lenses just like you, but Chuck E. Sortie's, like a rusty used car, is not something i can put my trust into as a hypothetical game designer

tl;dr: life's a b**ch, you're gonna have to live with sortie's RNG or DE's never gonna gain the necessary profit to stay afloat, we can't have both 

[Airwolfen]

First things first. the token system was a update suggestion by DE them selves on a live stream.

Second, 1 token does not have to mean 1 riven. Say the current system is 1 riven / 5 days on average then a riven mod could be worth 5 daily tokens next to some menial daily side rewards. Having both the lucky and the unlucky move towards that average base line.

More long term goals could be added with clear time paths till acquired but without adding clutter to a reward table.

A token system really does not have to be all bad as long as you pace the rewards well and will make goals fell more in reach compared to rare RNG rewards.

[DEATHLOK]

Riven mods represent the worst aspects of game design. Someone else can covet them, and I surely have enough stuff to farm, already.

I imagine they are a draw for people who already have every frame, every weapon, and every mod maxed out—an RNG unicorn to chase. It's just not for me.

Edited December 20, 2016 by DEATHLOK

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

7 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

First things first. the token system was a update suggestion by DE them selves on a live stream.

Second, 1 token does not have to mean 1 riven. Say the current system is 1 riven / 5 days on average then a riven mod could be worth 5 daily tokens next to some menial daily side rewards. Having both the lucky and the unlucky move towards that average base line.

More long term goals could be added with clear time paths till acquired but without adding clutter to a reward table.

A token system really does not have to be all bad as long as you pace the rewards well and will make goals fell more in reach compared to rare RNG rewards.

Exactly what this player said. No one could word it better than this

[Irn-bruman]

9 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

First things first. the token system was a update suggestion by DE them selves on a live stream.

Second, 1 token does not have to mean 1 riven. Say the current system is 1 riven / 5 days on average then a riven mod could be worth 5 daily tokens next to some menial daily side rewards. Having both the lucky and the unlucky move towards that average base line.

More long term goals could be added with clear time paths till acquired but without adding clutter to a reward table.

A token system really does not have to be all bad as long as you pace the rewards well and will make goals fell more in reach compared to rare RNG rewards.

I'd take 1 guaranteed riven for 5 days. It's better then guessing, what will i get this time - endo or lens? 

[Khratos26]

While i don't support the token system idea  and i'd rather it be a CHOOSE your reward system like how the relic rewards work,  the current sorties have less benefits to older players. When you've got everything researched and plenty of nitain but nothing to spend it on...  When you've got the focus maxed and you cant trade greater lenses... When you get that exilus adapter BP that requires a built forma, when you have better options of getting it ... yes , i wish the system changed to the benefit of older players, so far daily sortie is more like a chore with not much to look for other than the rng onion that is riven mods, if u get them heh.

[SeaUrchins]

Since I don't play sorties because of rewards I don't want it looks like that I would cause DE harm if I ran played according to your conclusions. And I would if there was a token system.

Edited December 20, 2016 by SeaUrchins

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

[DE]Sheldon mentioned trying to implement the token system back in January (Devstream 66).

But we haven't heard mention of it since then, so it's fair to say that the idea was killed long ago.

I think we're stuck with sorties as they are now.

[Hesyol]

But more Rivens means more slots to sell, so more profit to DE. I think it will still take a lot of time for everyone to get what they want.

Also, atm it's the best system that was suggested. Everything they tried before is either far from perfect or doesn't work at all (like the one that's up now). So if you have any better idea, feel free to tell them.

[malekas]

If people would only choose a single reward from a token system, doesn't that kind of illustrate just how bad the sortie reward table is. Fix that when implementing a token system and there's no problem.

[Red_Bones]

1 minute ago, malekas said:

If people would only choose a single reward from a token system, doesn't that kind of illustrate just how bad the sortie reward table is. Fix that when implementing a token system and there's no problem.

True.

[Voltage]

I would buy a ton of regular zenurik lens as I just changed schools. I also would would be buying 4k endo on occasions when I get low and Baro has a primed mod. Rivens are valueable but value depends on the player. I would check out this thread that really describes what we should get:

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

it would have it's upsides and it's downsides, but honestly I think we may as well pretend it won't happen. if DE were truly serious about adding it in, they would have either done it by now or talked about it more in depth in their Devstreams, but we haven't heard squat since it was first mentioned. I know that they're busy people, but it doesn't take more than a few seconds to say "oh, we're looking more into Tokens for Sorties".

don't hold your breath guys, you might suffocate.

 

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

4.*insert power-creep meme here*

here ya go

[ChuckMaverick]

1 hour ago, malekas said:

If people would only choose a single reward from a token system, doesn't that kind of illustrate just how bad the sortie reward table is. Fix that when implementing a token system and there's no problem.

People would choose rivens because sorties are the only way to obtain them, everything else on the sortie drop table can be farmed from other sources (except nitain, but that still has other ways you can obtain it).

It doesn't really have anything to do with the relative value of the rewards.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

4 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

People would choose rivens because sorties are the only way to obtain them, everything else on the sortie drop table can be farmed from other sources (except nitain, but that still has other ways you can obtain it).

It doesn't really have anything to do with the relative value of the rewards.

I think the sortie situation is hilarious.  DE pushes sorties behind a progress wall (because now you need to complete TWW to play sorties), but by the time players can play sorties they shouldn't have an interest in most of the reward table (nitain, forma, boosters, potatoes, etc).  DE would like us to view sorties as endgame.  Unfortunately, the sortie reward table is packed with rewards that would only interest a newer player.  Veterans want riven mods and/or legendary cores for tradeframe profit and nothing else from the sortie reward table.

And because riven mods and legendary cores are so profitable....we'll never be given a system to choose our reward.

[JohnKable]

I think its not a problem for them if they do the right way.
It doesnt have to be 1 token= 1 common reward.
 

Thats the way i would do it in a fair way for both parts:

Sortie1=1 token
Sortie2=2 tokens
Sortie3=3 tokens
Guaranteed 1k endo on sortie 3. 

So basically now you are having half of a common reward every day. And then 5 tokens.
That means 5 tokens = the half of a common reward missing.
So 10 tokens = a common reward. 
Lets say with 10 tokens you can buy a riven mod, 2k endo or 1 Nitain.
that might look too much in players favour because we are keeping the average but now we can choose.
But think that now you wont ever get an uncommon/rare reward unless you pay more for it. And paying more means saving for it, that is very different from having a reward every day. Nope, you save you reward for lets say 4 days to get a SINGLE better one guaranteed.

So lets say built forma 15 tokens, potatoes lenses and exilus 20 tokens, greater lenses for 35.
There maybe lenses could seem a bit overpriced, but mind that you will choose the lense you get.
Legendary core probably shouldnt even be priced, it should just have the same small drop chance it has now on sortie 3.

Also im not a fan of tokens in sortie 1 and 2, but i think this way makes some sense. its just 3 total for casual players that jump in for login a a couple missions. its less than half of the bounty, no guaranteed endo and not many credits. And 3 days of doing sortie 1+2 wouldnt even be enough to get a common reward.
But wouldnt mind if it was all locked to sortie 3
 

[DrBorris]

3 hours ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

1. nothing but rivens would be worth buying (unless your that one hipster who's gonna buy endo, which tbh you really should be running hieracon instead)

2. while people have requested for this Chuck E. Sortie's to stock arcanes and other rewards of it's ilk, this would ultimately result in the quick and full abandonment of the trials due how easy sorties are to run in comparison to trials

3. once people realize a new weapon's coming out, everyone would stock up on as many tokens as possible and swarm to this Chuck E. Sortie's to buy as many rivens as they can carry, and keep unveiling them until they get a riven for this weapon, diluting the purpose of rivens significantly, while a cap on tokens has been pitched, as the orginal iteration of the 100 void trace cap has proven, people don't like small caps on currencies 

4.*insert power-creep meme here*

5. once people either get rivens for what they want/need, Chuck E. Sortie's would immediately outlive it's usefullness, leaving people to abandon it fairly quickly

1. Focus lenses? High Endo rewards (Primed mods don't rank themselves)? Potatoes? Forma? Kuva? Maybe even rare resources? I can think of a lot of things besides Rivens... If I can control what I receive, You could add so much more to the available items because there is no drop table to dilute.
2. Have you read those threads? The only proposed having certain (the lower level) arcanes show up in Sorties. This way you are exposed to what an Arcane is before you do a trial.
3. There are ways around this, they could bring back seasons and have "season" tokens that are required for certain items. Hear me out. Some items like Rivens, Kuva, Focus Lenses all take a certain amount of "basic" tokens. However, special things like a weapon or maybe a greater Focus lens need "season" tokens (or maybe a combination of both). This means that when a new thing is released in the pool, DE could just start a new season. And while yes, this is a time wall, it also is a guarantee that you will get what you want at a certain rate, in other words it is a form of progression.
4. ? Wow, we are at the point where not being faced with an RNG wall is power creep, how about QoL?
5. Annnd, how does that differ from what we have now? The difference is in one system I won't throw banana peels at my screen when I get 2k endo and the other would just have me waiting until I get enough tokens to get what I want.

 

Just because YOU can't think of ways past those problems, doesn't mean that there aren't any. And before you bash what I said as not being able to work, think... Maybe I don't know, maybe you don't know, but do you honestly think there is no system beneficial to players and DE? That is rather ignorant if you do.

[Hypernaut1]

A token system would kill sorties. 

 1. Players would complain that they are "forced" to grind sorties 5 days a week if a Riven cost 5 tokens.

2. A token system removes the excitement that RNG provides. I know many of you hate it.... But you keep playing because of it. This game needs a balance of both. Look at syndicates, no one gets excited about earning mods or weapons from them and they are arguably some of the best content in the game. 

 

[DrBorris]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

A token system would kill sorties. 

 1. Players would complain that they are "forced" to grind sorties 5 days a week if a Riven cost 5 tokens.

2. A token system removes the excitement that RNG provides. I know many of you hate it.... But you keep playing because of it. This game needs a balance of both. Look at syndicates, no one gets excited about earning mods or weapons from them and they are arguably some of the best content in the game. 

 

Maybe it is the 2000 gameplay hours speaking, but RNG is not exiting to me... We already have enough RNG in the game for some excitement, at some point it is too much. And don't forget, you still have to face RNG if you pick up a Riven.

Oh, and because Rivens are a "common" item I would think they would probably be more like 3 days of tokens.

[Tsukinoki]

My personal problem with a token system is how it would make sorties feel like a chore instead of just something to do.

Instead of being something to do that gets me something every day I do it and I might get lucky or not, but regardless I get something it becomes a situation where I'm going "I have to grind away at sorties for how many days to get one reward?  And beyond that I get absolutely nothing of value or use at all and nothing to show for my work until I hit the abritrarily high goal-post of X tokens?" (and I find it cute how many people think DE will give them stuff every other day...I seriously doubt we would be able to get more than one reward per week...)

It would basically become another syndicate.
Instead of doing it and hoping I get something I know that I won't get anything for days and days and days and days and days with literally nothing I can do to speed up the progress.

Sorties would become even more of a chore than before because now I can't get lucky.  Now I'm forced to wait days to get any reward at all with no recourse!
I mean I get a lens for a school I haven't completed?  I'll be able to use that when I get around to that school.
I get nitain?  I need some so its a win for me.
I get endo?  Hey I have mods to level up.
I get forma/exilus BP?  Hey I have something useful.
I get riven mods?  I got lucky and have some fun.
A token deal would be "I did the sortie and got 1 token!  Only a weeks more grinding and I get a single reward!" which would feel so much worse.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Hypernaut1]

19 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

 

 

 

 

 

My personal problem with a token system is how it would make sorties feel like a chore instead of just something to do.

Instead of being something to do that gets me something every day I do it and I might get lucky or not, but regardless I get something it becomes a situation where I'm going "I have to grind away at sorties for how many days to get one reward?  And beyond that I get absolutely nothing of value or use at all and nothing to show for my work until I hit the abritrarily high goal-post of X tokens?" (and I find it cute how many people think DE will give them stuff every other day...I seriously doubt we would be able to get more than one reward per week...)

It would basically become another syndicate.
Instead of doing it and hoping I get something I know that I won't get anything for days and days and days and days and days with literally nothing I can do to speed up the progress.

Sorties would become even more of a chore than before because now I can't get lucky.  Now I'm forced to wait days to get any reward at all with no recourse!
I mean I get a lens for a school I haven't completed?  I'll be able to use that when I get around to that school.
I get nitain?  I need some so its a win for me.
I get endo?  Hey I have mods to level up.
I get forma/exilus BP?  Hey I have something useful.
I get riven mods?  I got lucky and have some fun.
A token deal would be "I did the sortie and got 1 token!  Only a weeks more grinding and I get a single reward!" which would feel so much worse.

and they could double up rewards with RNG and a token, but it would STILL feel like a grind when RNG isnt kind for a week or two. It would even make it feel worse, as if RNG is there just to make you play even more.

If the token system is too generous, then it kills a huge reason why many vets log in to play daily. If tokens were generous like syndicates,, players would burn through rewards in a few weeks and rarely touch sorties. 

Anyway- the reality is that the forum is basically a filter for players burned by RNG. I dont think the situation is bad AT ALL, even by forum standards. Many people do seem fine with it and do indeed play everyday which proves that the Sortie system is a success. It also proves that the Riven system is a success too. No one really needs riven mods, we want them. Syndicate rewards are a different beast because many could see augments as a "need", so DE has given us a guaranteed way of acquiring them. I think the RNG of sorties is a good balance to the token system of syndicates.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

3 hours ago, malekas said:

If people would only choose a single reward from a token system, doesn't that kind of illustrate just how bad the sortie reward table is. Fix that when implementing a token system and there's no problem.

This is what I was coming to say. :D

If there's only 1 reward anyone could want from Sorties then the system is already broken. Change the reward table, change the reward system. RNG is not a suitable plan to keep people playing longer. Layers and layers of RNG gets players burned out.

Terrible RNG works in typical MMOs because the developers constantly increase level caps, and develop new zones, with stronger bosses making old gear obsolete, making even the most powerful players obsolete. So players farm to upgrade and beat the content and go through RNG until the next update.

In this game we really are only getting more side-grade content that we blow through so fast because of the power creep because our upgrades are introduced long before the appropriate level content for it comes out.

[Sziklamester]

My opinion abot tokens and rng is both good and both bad exactly the same reason. The main problem is we playing for rewards and the progression is linked to make new stuff get more mods etc. The biggest problem is the game itself not enough fun and without rewards I am sure the 99% of peoples would abandon the game. The tokens can help the rewards because x token gives y reward and that is fix but It will come with a great time wall if the devs scaling the prices of the tokens. The problem with the rng rxqct the same but for an rng lootbased game need more stuffs as rewards Just like diablo, wow, torchlight and any other rng based game. In warframe we cannot get different variants of an item like in the examples. Rng should work only for the enemy composition on the maps and environmental hazards. If they want to stick with the rng loot then they should add more items to the table and buff a bit the chaches. They should sell some necessary items then for compensate the profit loses due the buffed rng.

 

 

Personally I want a better gameplay and more social qol changes to lessen the grinding and focusing instead to the fun parts.

 

 

[Drasiel]

I actually saw a really good post a while ago that has a token system that could help balance player stockpiling and allow a token system.