[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[JohnKable]

This nerf is bad. Not saying nuker limbo had to stay, but it could be tweaked so it couldnt spam it the same way or just to deal less-but still scaling damage.  It would have been easy to make it in a way that just halvens enemies health or something like that.
I mean novas MP literally halvens all enemies health (double damage) while slowing them to death with a single button press.

And you guys say its still viable as a mass banish combined with stasis. Its cool to see and all, but a rhino can perma stomp the whole tileset, being a buffer to the whole team and being much more tanky avoiding random deaths. Sure stasis+cata looks cooler but now its just a lesser version of rhino's stomp to my eyes.
i really dont see why now i should take limbo over any other frame, nuking was bad but keeping some sort of scaling damage would have made it still viable

[Urlan]

2 minutes ago, StabbyTentacles said:

We are weapons. There is the Emperor, and there is war. Nothing more.

For the Emperor and we know only WAAAAGH!

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, Shadu said:

I would expect from devs that have been working on the same game for years to finally be able to make balanced stuff. But nope, DE keeps on showing they don't know much about proper balance and design and instead just come up with stuff that they think would be awesome to implement without thinking about the consequences of the gameplay.

I don't know why, but lot of stuffs are not very well balanced and most changes are due to uproar from people who doesn't have enough experience, shouting nerfs and OPs.

1 hour ago, Shadu said:

It's as if they don't test for balance at all, they just see what is doing too much damage (nearly never too little damage because apparently killing stuff too easily is the only worry to them) and throw a random number nerf into the ability and be done with it which more often than not results in an overnerf .

You talking about the Zenith? It is even being playtested or QA'd?

[Fallen_Echo]

Damn im gonna miss limboom.

It was great to help at akkad farming(im not a limbo user i dont even have him) and to kill masses of weak mobs.

10% of avarage health of the mobs inside with max 25% total damage when the bubble is at max is literally nothing.

[LSG501]

Tbh I still don't like what they've done to him (I actually liked his old loadout) and it's not because of the nuke nerf, that was needed in a BIG way (although maybe a little too much of a nerf with the 25% damage at full range ).  The problem I have with limbo is the way that his powers interfere with other players, stasis which will be the main power most will focus on has an issue where it 'forces' any other user to use melee if they want to kill stuff stuck in stasis all while reducing the damage we do with melee.  I don't mind the freezing aspect of stasis, in fact it's a very useful skill, but it's the way it's been implemented that is the issue.  The noise and graphical effects aren't exactly the most pleasing either but thats a different issue.

Until that's fixed the odds are I will continue to abort any mission with a limbo in it and my own limbo (which already had a stasis build) will remain in the arsenal. 

[Shadu]

31 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

You talking about the Zenith? It is even being playtested or QA'd?

Not talking about anything specifically, it has just been shown multiple times with weapons and abilities. Just look at the Limbo cataclysm damage nerf, I think they did have to lower the damage but it should have been able to hit the same amount of damage with enough strength mods equipped and enemies killed by collapsing the cataclysm shouldn't have given energy anymore.. that would have been a fine nerf but they have gone overboard with the nerf and made it worse than pre-rework cataclysm damage. Also just look at for example the Cernos Prime, it's a horrible weapon for a recent prime weapon. Same thing with the Zenith indeed, cool mechanic but past level 50 it isn't good. It is being proven by DE so many times so often to the point that it's just mind-boggling how it can still be happening..

It is pretty much looking like they do bug testing for mechanics and such but absolutely no damage testing nor co-op testing.

[kyori]

DE is the ultimately one to be blamed for creating limbomb, then nerf it to pacify other players. This shows that whomever or whichever department that came out with the rework didn't think it through enough. They are giving themselves quite a bad name in this area.

So instead of re-nerfing 4 into something like no energy refund etc, DE has to double-nerfed it.. and the nerf has to be damage concern.

Well, expect this trend to go on, with the upcoming oberon rework and then nerf.

[(PSN)Iudex_Nemesis]

I'm liking the rework. Only thing I don't like is banish. It's just too risky to use now. Limbo is too squishy to be walking up to enemies just to banish them. Sticking to my mini cataclysm build to avoid being an annoyance to teammates.

[Deadoon]

3 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Not denying that. But I feel it isn't enough.

I don't think Limbo should be a nuke either. But his 4 does need something more than just being a larger tin opener.

Also I disagree that his 1 is for duelling. It might have been for pre rework limbo, but making it aoe has just made it an inferior cataclysm.

Well dueling as in there is nothing but you and your opponent(s), there is no uninvited guests to the battle.

[xPhantomStranga]

3 hours ago, DaTThunderbuddy said:

so you basically like to do nothing or you are melee only player, since that is the single thing you are able to do, while  limbo is dancing on the defence point

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth. 

[Nyaa314]

I don't mind damage nerf, but let's look at the current status of Limbo's abilities:

0: free dashing into the rift is awesome, free energy is also awesome

1: only useful in rescues

2: useless without 4, awesome with it

3: useless

4: useless without 2, awesome with it

So Limbo have about 2-2.5 useful abilities out of five, as 2 and 4 is essentially one ability.

[Fallen_Echo]

20 minutes ago, kyori said:

.

Well, expect this trend to go on, with the upcoming oberon rework and then nerf.

Day 1: Good morning Tenno! We reworked the Reneval to by an instant effect and increased the healing too!

Day 14: Good morning Tenno! After revisiting the changes made to Oberon we concluded that the forum posters are right and he heals too much. Now we changed the effect back to the original and decrease the overall heal below what we had before the rework!

[Evanescent]

I AM NOT ASKING DE TO REINSTATE THE NUKE SPAM. PLEASE READ ON BEFORE RAGEPOSTING AND SPARE ME YOUR SNARK, THANK YOU.

Here are the changes:

• Cataclysm now deals different amount of damage over the time it exists: 25% Damage when bubble is full size, 100% at its smallest size.
• Cataclysm damage scaling now uses average Health + Shield instead of total Health + Shield of enemies within.

The bubble does not keep enemies inside, and so you can't deal 100% damage to enemies in anything more than a tiny, tiny area before it closes. This means 99% of the time you do no damage because enemies can move, and eventually leave the radius of cataclysm. This is, for lack of better words, extremely stupid to see and use. It makes absolutely no sense. And I speak from using maximum range possible with cunning drift, overextended and stretch.

Average health and average shield means you do basically no damage to any enemy in anything outside of baby level planets. It does not scale, especially not with its blast type damage.

Therefore, now cataclysm does not scale and does not deal its full damage except on paper. I find it difficult to believe this was playtested and approved for patching in this state.

Why keep any damage at all DE? You could have just removed its damage component and replaced with something like team damage buff with the number of enemies in the rift, heals from enemies in the cata bubble killed, etc etc, anything if you did not want Limbo to nuke. If that is not his intended, design. give him something else. There is no reason to hand him a crippled ability without recompensing him by by nudging him up in some other way.

The problem with cataclysm was not its scaling but its spammability. You could have just made it so that

1) it only dealt the damage it was dealing when it closed naturally, which at the lowest duration takes about 18-20 seconds ish. If needed bump up the duration of cataclysm so that there is a soft cooldown. 

2)It dealt the damage over its maximum range when it closes to avoid the current joke it is now

Why nerf the scaling?

I ask you to make the following changes:

1) Cataclysm deals its damage when it runs out not in its small piddly minimum range but over its original radius. This will at least allow you to keep enemies inside with rift surge and deal damage.

2)Cataclysm reverts its scaling but retains its property that it can only apply its scaled up damage when it closes naturally. Spamming detonate will only deal its base damage

Otherwise, remove its damage component and give it something else. 

Just being a larger, glorified banish is not enough to justify an ultimate DE. Please reconsider and come up with something better. I do not insist on giving it damage, but give it anything that remains useful.

Thank you for reading.

 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I think the people who are over reacting are the ones that never knew how to use Limbo and only relied on his broken Cataclysm damage. He's got survivability, CC and DPS (from Rift Torrent.) If someone thinks Limbo needed a nuke to be good, that someone doesn't know how to use Limbo.

Today I just managed to use Limbo to kill 20 sortie level sentients without using Naramon. All I used was melee, stasis and rift torrent. I don't know any other warframe that can do this without using Naramon.

[Evanescent]

4 minutes ago, Nyaa314 said:

I don't mind damage nerf, but let's look at the current status of Limbo's abilities:

0: free dashing into the rift is awesome, free energy is also awesome

1: only useful in rescues

2: useless without 4, awesome with it

3: useless without augment, awesome with it

4: useless without 2, awesome with it and 3 with augment

So Limbo have about 2-2.5 3-3.5 useful abilities out of five, as 2 and 4 is essentially one ability.

I'd like to correct it a little, if you don't mind.

[Fallen_Echo]

3 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I AM NOT ASKING DE TO REINSTATE THE NUKE SPAM. PLEASE READ ON BEFORE RAGEPOSTING AND SPARE ME YOUR SNARK, THANK YOU.

Here are the changes:

• Cataclysm now deals different amount of damage over the time it exists: 25% Damage when bubble is full size, 100% at its smallest size.
• Cataclysm damage scaling now uses average Health + Shield instead of total Health + Shield of enemies within.

The bubble does not keep enemies inside, and so you can't deal 100% damage to enemies in anything more than a tiny, tiny area before it closes. This means 99% of the time you do no damage because enemies can move, and eventually leave the radius of cataclysm. This is, for lack of better words, extremely stupid to see and use. It makes absolutely no sense. And I speak from using maximum range possible with cunning drift, overextended and stretch.

Average health and average shield means you do basically no damage to any enemy in anything outside of baby level planets. It does not scale, especially not with its blast type damage.

Therefore, now cataclysm does not scale and does not deal its full damage except on paper. I find it difficult to believe this was playtested and approved for patching in this state.

Why keep any damage at all DE? You could have just removed its damage component and replaced with something like team damage buff with the number of enemies in the rift, heals from enemies in the cata bubble killed, etc etc, anything if you did not want Limbo to nuke. If that is not his intended, design. give him something else. There is no reason to hand him a crippled ability without recompensing him by by nudging him up in some other way.

The problem with cataclysm was not its scaling but its spammability. You could have just made it so that

1) it only dealt the damage it was dealing when it closed naturally, which at the lowest duration takes about 18-20 seconds ish. If needed bump up the duration of cataclysm so that there is a soft cooldown. 

2)It dealt the damage over its maximum range when it closes to avoid the current joke it is now

Why nerf the scaling?

I ask you to make the following changes:

1) Cataclysm deals its damage when it runs out not in its small piddly minimum range but over its original radius. This will at least allow you to keep enemies inside with rift surge and deal damage.

2)Cataclysm reverts its scaling but retains its property that it can only apply its scaled up damage when it closes naturally. Spamming detonate will only deal its base damage

Otherwise, remove its damage component and give it something else. 

Just being a larger, glorified banish is not enough to justify an ultimate DE. Please reconsider and come up with something better. I do not insist on giving it damage, but give it anything that remains useful.

Thank you for reading.

 

And after this the perma stasis limbos will rise and people gonna complain again.

I wouldnt be suprised if they got the nerf idea from the "what the worst they could do" limbo thread.

[Vafthrudnir]

Perhaps it should slowly pull enemies to the center.

[kyori]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I think the people who are over reacting are the ones that never knew how to use Limbo and only relied on his broken Cataclysm damage. He's got survivability, CC and DPS (from Rift Torrent.) If someone thinks Limbo needed a nuke to be good, that someone doesn't know how to use Limbo.

Today I just managed to use Limbo to kill 20 sortie level sentients without using Naramon. All I used was melee, stasis and rift torrent. I don't know any other warframe that can do this without using Naramon.

Not everyone that is at a certain unhappiness level of the renerf spam his 4. I don't spam his 4 but I like it when I can use it to clear some enemies when teammates are in trouble... now I just lost that incentive. 

Limbo is now a stasis-main frame.

Loki no need naramon. 

[kyori]

I'm not bashing the dev... but their action really shows that they are bad at creating the frame's power. As seen they need to rework and nerf etc.

[AuroraSonicBoom]

2 hours ago, Death_Master_ said:

With limbomb nerfed i would just prefer they roll back all Libmo "rework" changes, at least it would be useful frame for sortie defence. 

Guess what, he's become my go to for Sortie non-Corpus MobDef, non-Corpus Excavation and Rescue(which he already was before the buff). He's not designed to be a nuker but a CC and support frame, and now he pretty much excels at that.

[Xardis]

They should have based it on time, not size.

[artemisfortune]

5 minutes ago, kyori said:

I'm not bashing the dev... but their action really shows that they are bad at creating the frame's power. As seen they need to rework and nerf etc.

I'm sure you could do better.

On Topic: Personally they should have made cataclysm start small and grow over time.

[DeMonkey]

Know what I would do to ensure that Cata damage actually hits enemies?

Have a background debuff applied to any enemy that spends say 4/5 seconds in Cataclysm exclusively. Said enemy will take the damage when it implodes regardless of whether they're still in it or not.

[PsiWarp]

Correction for their "Limbo is useless" statements is "Cataclysm nuking is useless". Because it kinda is after the over-nerf, even with the setup required which I would gladly do if the damage was worth it. Limbo is still as unbalanced and unfriendly as before with god-like control over the battlefield.

[LSG501]

I've mentioned the issue in a similar way in the update thread because the augment basically counteracts the intention of the current cataclysm. 

I've also said elsewhere I'm not sure the 25% is the best idea either having tried it for a little while because like you say they run away, it's ok if it's a grunt that runs at you though but then you actually need to fight using limbo lol

Maybe 4 could be made into a 'rift container'.  We target a location and a small rift appears and keeps them in place until it pops, causing the same damage it does now and players are free to enter/leave as we want, enemies can't enter or leave.   You can pop it earlier by pressing 4 but with reduced damage, think of it as a 'charge up time' for damage, longer something is in it, the more damage.  Maybe could through in some 'slow down' on the enemies too so that it allows us a little extra time to attack stuff etc in rift.

Might need a little more fleshing out but you get the idea.  You can also combine it with stasis (might need a tweak to work with all rift enemies) to deal with heavies.  

Having said that my biggest issue now is stasis and how it affects other players....rather than lack of damage from 4.  I don't like the way it's currently implemented in that it 'forces' us to use melee and to top it off our melee actually does less damage than normal....I'd like stasis to basically be like vaubans bastille in that they just get stuck and we can kill them however we want.   Considering how long a stasis build can be built for I'm still likely to abort any mission with limbo in because it's going to interfere with how others play the game, it's still going to be the 'ultimate troll frame' due to stasis.

 

22 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Have a background debuff applied to any enemy that spends say 4/5 seconds in Cataclysm exclusively. Said enemy will take the damage when it implodes regardless of whether they're still in it or not.

So basically automatically apply 3 to the enemies... which would be nice for 4 considering setting up 3 is a pain imo. 

Edited April 20, 2017 by LSG501