Oberon Rework discussion and feedback (including feedback post prime time #161)

[CrudShuzKong]

As I understood it the Armor buff you get from HG+Renewal will be active as long as you stay on HG + a duration (scaling with mods) afterwards, meaning that the Armor buff is now a lot more versatile becasue you no longer have to stay on a fricken bathroom carpet.

[Buddhakingpen]

Right now, its easy to say renewal should be this, or hallowed ground should be that, but as of right now, the new proposed mechanics are sound, depending on what they do with the numbers. 

I see all these comparisons to trinity, but she's not radiating enemies, shredding their armor,knocking them down and making them deal less damage (she makes you able to tank more damage. Difference, two separate calculations) 

All these comparisons to nyx, but she's not doing percentage hp damage, healing, buffing and removing statuses

Its ok to be a jack of all trades, master of none as long as youre effective at them all. 

If the numbers are right, he will be a one man team carrying support monster. able to deal damage when they cant with his 1 (lets go for 10% max hp), shred armor when they cant with 2 and 4 (seeing as thats 150 energy right there, enough power strength should let you strip 100% armor imo), and keep some frames alive when they really shouldnt be at least up to sortie level with his 3's armor buff (so i'm hoping for at least 300 armor at base for 20 seconds or so). 

So yeah, if the numbers are right, oberon is gonna be pretty damn good. Not top tier probably, but a frame you could suggest a new player use, and know they could easily get him, and still play him in a way that scales for as long as they want to play warframe. 

 

[Mousarchy]

ya. also i just realized. (since you mentioned his 2/4 combo) oberons gonna have some major energy issues since he has a low energy pool as is and now they want to make him a combo /synergy frame...hopefully that got buffed.

Still the only thing I was really worried about after seeing the changes were the healing wave. Its sorta assumed its going to be around teh same stats as mag thus half duration oberons would get shafted while higher duration oberons get a boost. thats ASSUMING it works the same way with the HOT speed +wave applier. course DE could suprise us and make i fixed or ranged based. there are ALWAYS numbers we dont know. and alot of us are just putting up these issues to make sure DE is aware they are there and takes the POSSIBLE issues we could have to make sure it comes out the best way possible.

[AdunSaveMe]

Numbers won't be enough if his abilities are mechanically flawed, and we have more than enough information on that front to give feedback.

[Mousarchy]

16 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

They stated that, like nova's MP, the range of the wave will be based on duration(oh right, the stat that's a dump stat if you want the regen/phoenix renewal/bleedout reduction/armor buff from the rework to stay on the target for more than a couple seconds)

 

This is my opinion as well. Instead of buffing the parts of renewal that were weak, they nerfed the parts of it that were strong. Considering renewal was already behind trinity in terms of healing, I can't see why DE would think that was a good idea.

ya didnt think of it cuz blinded by the cool new stuff but ya. they are kinda hurting the healer support side of him and focusing on the dmg/radiation support. kind of a shame. since i run a half duration oberon since it fits my play style. burst heal with a long HOT on. carpet when i need it. radiation on everything. but now my pheonix renewal is basically useless because my wave wont reach any allies. (wish DE woulda played using my eff/rang build instead of a power str/duration build.) his heal was already sort of a mess with it working against itself but now that it has duration range as well its just MORE stuff to hurt his heal variations.

[NightmareT12]

39 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Numbers won't be enough if his abilities are mechanically flawed, and we have more than enough information on that front to give feedback.

I do not agree. I'll say all I've always said: Wait until the rework hits, then we can talk.

I am seeing a lot of outcry from people wanting Hallowed Ground out, that if he's a druid appearance wise (although he's designed, called in game files and referred to by DE as Paladin), if this is that, if it was all good, if it was all bad, terrible (no, really, terrible) Rework ideas...

I value a lot Oberon's kit, where the major flaws have always been the terrible scaling and numbers (Valkyr's Warcry gives more armor increase to the whole team as long as they're in range for 20 seconds without requiring them to be near her than Oberon's Hallowed Ground at the same Power Strength, what!?) with the only ability that needed a major touch up in concept was Renewal due delivery time. Well, that and the recently added subpar passive :P

I just want to wait and see how he will fare when this releases. I totally have a general idea on what to add to him... Hell, I can already more or less work it out solo on the Kuva Fortress and right now his abilities don't cut it. With this he should be Sortie viable. Unless the scalaing falls short.

I just want the full details on Devstream. I hope Hallowed Ground doesn't lose the armor buff though, the Renewal change has me worried there.

[AdunSaveMe]

18 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

I do not agree. I'll say all I've always said: Wait until the rework hits, then we can talk.

Waiting until the rework hits means it's harder to incorporate feedback as opposed to doing it while it's still in development, and past reworks have shown that large changes, or even some small ones, generally don't happen at all. Saryn was supposed to continue to be tweaked after her rework, but she got almost no changes. Nothing has been done with Bladestorm. Overload still has significant issues. Peacemaker hasn't been touched. Many things that have been reworked have gotten little to no changes since they went live.

I don't blame people for trying to get in early, considering the history of reworks.

[AdunSaveMe]

1 hour ago, Ordosan said:

ya didnt think of it cuz blinded by the cool new stuff but ya. they are kinda hurting the healer support side of him and focusing on the dmg/radiation support. kind of a shame. since i run a half duration oberon since it fits my play style. burst heal with a long HOT on. carpet when i need it. radiation on everything. but now my pheonix renewal is basically useless because my wave wont reach any allies. (wish DE woulda played using my eff/rang build instead of a power str/duration build.) his heal was already sort of a mess with it working against itself but now that it has duration range as well its just MORE stuff to hurt his heal variations.

And the problem with hurting his heal is that it just makes Trinity that much more dominant, and lifesteal builds that much more mandatory. Without a usable heal that doesn't require you to be on top of people, there's just not many options for that restoration.

Regaining HP is hugely imbalanced right now, with it being limited to one aura, a couple of mods, deployable stationary gear craftables and health orbs that almost never spawn and only give you 25 HP. There is no competition for ability healing. Why make that worse?

Edited April 22, 2017 by AdunSaveMe

[NightmareT12]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Waiting until the rework hits means it's harder to incorporate feedback as opposed to doing it while it's still in development, and past reworks have shown that large changes, or even some small ones, generally don't happen at all. Saryn was supposed to continue to be tweaked after her rework, but she got almost no changes. Nothing has been done with Bladestorm. Overload still has significant issues. Peacemaker hasn't been touched. Many things that have been reworked have gotten little to no changes since they went live.

I don't blame people for trying to get in early, considering the history of reworks.

That does not mean it's harder to incorporate changes -- it means DE simply doesn't want to do it. It doesn't matter if the feedback happens early or 24 hours after it's hit, if DE wants to implement changes they will, if they don't want to, they won't.

So I will restate my answer. Hell, I'm playing him right now Solo without big numbers (130-150% in all attributes), without augments and I'm managing to stay alive even with the flimsy 150 armor + whatever Hallowed Ground gives... If those were in a better shape, I wouldn't even be struggling at all.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

20 hours ago, Blakrana said:

I'm currently...baffled as to what is going on with Renewal at the moment. As of the moment, I still don't understand why it is a 'Toggle' when there's not really much point to it as it switches itself off when the duration is finished, unlike a true toggle skill. And with it taking on a range aspect similar to Molecular Prime or Polarise, it ends up being much more complicated.

Hopefully there's more revision going to go into it, but if this is all that's going to happen then...yeah, certainly feeling Oberon got the short end of the stick...again.

How else would you screw with its power cost? Seriously, it's insane on some builds.

[Twistedsparkle]

seriously all his abilities suggest a tank yet his armor is puny
please consider buffing to atleast 300 thnx

Edited April 22, 2017 by Twistedsparkle

[NightmareT12]

I think 220/250 would work wonders. But yes, basically...

WHERE DO I SIGN!?

[An8rchy]

Would love that for my Tank Oberon build 

[jinxeverything]

1+ to more armor since he is supposed to be a 'knight' and that class face tank not run away and hide behind a corner unless they have to, lets toss the word play out of the window, shall we? and....

Only armor? how about more energy pool as well? since he is supposed to be a caster and now he needs to spam his powers more than before so 150 / 300 / 420 (with primed flow) won't cut it!

While we are at it increase the duration and range to all his abilities if unchanged it will hurt the 'rework'.

Also his Renewal better affect all allies within the range if it were like a pulse otherwise what a waste, it also better start to drain when it begins healing, if it were to travel and drain before it began healing then this ability is just...... :/ 

P.S, I seen the Prime Time with rework displayed BUT it wasn't an unmodded build it was modded for what ability.........? exactly, we need a better look with him without mods to see how he is.

I wish we get a workshop soon to explain how he works before the change goes live, need time to say my goodbyes :'( 

 

[TotallyLagging]

They really should've just rework Renewal entirely. If they want to go with the Paladin (damage/healing) route then make it a lifesteal or something. 

 

Seems that they really want to enforce the buffed Hallowed Ground by making his kit rely on you standing on it. I suppose Renewal's range does have that logic behind it, but it's still disappointing.

[An8rchy]

If only the carpet was toggleable, that would be one good buff for Oberon, since u have a mobile knockdown resistance with armor boost but with a somewhat high drain to balance it.
And even thats not going to happen making a Rewnual a toggleable ability, it would work as Revenous, and the Rewnual Aug making it work with allies. (Tenno only not pets) Would give a Really strong reason to take him. Just imagine, Insta revive at range with coldown. Would Make Oberon hella nice 

 

[NeonNemesis]

The numbers would need to be in the broken levels to correct the mechanics, besides everyone knows DE's modus operandi, once a rework comes out, unless it is flat out broken to the point of being spammed like Limbo's cataclysm, then DE simply considers it done and moves on to the next frame.

Just look at the over 100 pages Ash rework thread, they failed miserably in that rework, even now the community keeps on telling them, yet they never looked back.

Once they release this Oberon most of you will move to the next frame seeing how horrible this rework is, but people like me that main Oberon will be stuck with this abomination till the game ends.

[Turtlemancer]

Why would they show us the work they have done so far if not to ask for feedback. If we can tell them what we think they can decide weather or not its worth working on.

As someone who spends enough time on Oberon to say he is my primary frame, yeah, I think its far more productive to give feedback rather than sit back and pray.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

11 hours ago, Ordosan said:

ya. i play a half duration oberon. Im super spammy. hollowed ground lasted as long as its needed and the 30~ sec slow hot was nice. but with it being a duration range 9cuz of wave macanics) that means im going to need to think about how my build is (unless DE surprises us and the wave ends up not being a duration scale)

Honestly the MOST annoying thing about his heal (asides from being able to dodge the orbs for several minutes without trying. fixed by it being a wave) was the fact that the "bleed out reduction" got screwed over by duration... in BOTH extremes...to short and you barely add time. too long and you get a 7 min bleed out that vanishes after 2 seconds.

It pretty mich boils down to my sentiments to how the old mechanics to Ember's World on Fire was like: There were too many mechanics to toy with to optimize one ability that hampered the rest of the kit in general, and in its optimization you only had a sparse amount of duration to be any useful with the ability itself and its kit. Really, the big pink elephant in the room is Renewal's algorithm and methology to optimize it, but DE plans to use Hallowed Ground as the prerogative for the rework.

I honestly don't know what DE has in store for us, but it looks like Renewal is getting pushed aside even though for quite some time a majority of us want this ability to have a simpler functionality algorithm-wise than simplicity in synergy on the battlefield.

[Turtlemancer]

I really feel like all things considered, Renewal is the main thing we as a community need to pile behind. At this point this is probably the most needed change on the frame. if not it closely follows behind a higher armor score.

If not removing its cap, at least removing the unnecessary energy drain. Making it a Burst heal rather than a crappy HoT, After all If its going to be capped its a terrible HoT heal as HoTs are proactive, its all about making sure people don't need a burst heal. Heck, removing the travel time or making the ability one handed would make a world of difference. Right now I think most of us agree Oberon needs this, and I feel like if we can get DE to hear us on this maybe Oberon wont be saddled with arguably the worst heal in the game.

[BeardyKyle]

I'll keep this as short as possible but I have a lot of constructive criticism and questions for you, DE. 

 

Renewal should absolutely not be changed to a wave. As others have stated it's a nerf to his infinite range and ability to reach teammates in other rooms. Aside from the Projectiles from the old renewal IMO fitting his Fairy theme very well, the infinite range makes him unique from other healers and balances the fact that his heal isn't as strong as theirs.   

The armor buff synergy from renewal + HG is welcome. However, from what I see (correct me if i'm wrong) it only applies to teammates and not to Oberon himself and that's dependent on Them standing on hallowed ground While renewal is cast. This actually adds another level to the previous problem of players having to stand on hallowed ground to receive its effects, now they also need to stand on it at the specific moment you cast renewal as well.

What would be better is obviously have it applied to Oberon if it doesn't currently and have it affect other teammates regardless of where they are, as long as Oberon casts Renewal while on Hallowed Ground. To encourage team play however, an additional buff should be given if any teammates are standing on HG while renewal is cast. 

The armor has a timer that starts once renewal reaches full health. No problems with this. However, renewal itself should not end at full health.

Renewal now drains energy after it reaches allies rather than during travel time, does this mean it doesn't drain energy for solo players?

There's no problem having renewal be duration based and begin to drain energy when the effect reaches allies - as long as having higher duration means longer heal time and higher efficiency means less energy drained. So essentially the heal could last for a flat 30 secs and drain 5 energy per second for example, instead of being limited by both. 

- The problem with inverse duration on renewal is it affects his other powers too much. If you are insisting on keeping the inverse duration then the base timers of hallowed ground and reckoning's blind effects (which I assume it still has) should be extended to compensate for having to mod for the dynamics of Renewal. 

The changes and synergies to smite and reckoning are both welcome.

The changes to his passive are decidedly worse. They force players to now use animal companions instead of sentinels. Please have it apply to sentinels as well or be an addition to his current passive, or both.

 

 

 

 

[Gurpgork]

This is seriously a repeat of the last time they gave Oberon a balance pass. They just tossed a bunch of extra effects on his abilities, complicating his kit immensely without actually changing anything that would make his kit more coherent or fix his glaring problems. 

The two changes he needs the absolute most are making Renewal not deactivate when it finishes its duration, and making the healing scale intuitively with duration. It should be a long-lasting healing buff, which has phenomenal, natural synergy with an armor buff. 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Gurpgork

[DrBorris]

My two cents on Broberon...

1. Smite is good, great even. It has always been a solid ability and the scaling damage is icing on the cake.
2. Hallowd Ground: Needs one more thing, this is a game about your movement so standing still better give you a hell of a buff. An additional +200 armor (affected by power strength) would allow the squishier frames to actually use Hallowed Ground.
3. Renewal: Remove BOTH the duration and max health caps, make it a traditional toggle ability. Also revert to the sprites because we have enough AoE waves in Warframe as it is. When you are standing on Hallowed Ground and have Renewal on you, the armor buff of Hallowed Ground is doubled. Also simplify the math. Duration affects efficiency and strength buffs the health regeneration. Nice-n-simple.
4. Reckoning: Have it so all enemies standing on ANY patch of Hallowed Ground are affected, even if they are on the other side of the map.

Passive: Oberon regenerates 1 energy per point of damage taken to allies within 30 meters or damage take to himself (built in team rage).

 

Hopefully this keeps the theme of where Oberon is going with the current changes slated, but provides that extra oomph to make him worthwhile. Keep in mind the latest three Warframes to go through the pipeline; Nidus, Limbo and Octavia. The standard for Warframes has risen, let's make Oberon reach it.

[Turtlemancer]

Ok, so as the primary Oberon Rework Feedback Thread (Primetime, Oberon Rework Preview) has been removed. Hopefully temporarily.

(I am hoping this was a mix up)

I have decided to attempt to start the discussion up again here. Any feedback on the rework is welcome, positive, negative, crying about not wanting anything to change because change is scary, the works. I would like to ask everyone to keep things civil, the other thread was starting to get a little toxic (another reason it may have been removed), and, I don’t want to see that in here. That being said I hope everyone’s voices are heard in this matter, and would prefer if people all keep their feedback in one place rather than in a bunch smaller threads scattered throughout the forums.

A quick synopsis of what we know so far.

            Smite: Damage of orbs emitted after the initial smite are affected by the original targets health (The damage scales). My feedback is looks good.

            Hallowed Ground: Now a conel AoE, Range mods change the angle of the cone (and maybe outward range?), Seems to have a bigger effect range. Slick new look (My opinion) Very high radiation proc. chance. My feedback cones a weird choice, otherwise nice to see the range increase. Also, the synergies are a cool idea.

            Renewal: Wave based rather than projectiles (Like Nova’s Molecular Prime), Grants an armor buff to Oberon and his allies when they are on Hallowed Ground. Still drains energy for o reason and still stops healing at max health. My Feedback, looks like a nerf to me, BUT the Synergy is a cool idea, don’t know if it stops at max health though they seem to have suggested it doesn’t which may be a great buff for the power.

            Reckoning: Deals bonus damage to irradiated enemies. Enemies standing on Hallowed Ground will have an armor reduction based on their level (Scaling Damage). My Feedback, best change out of all of them.

            Passive: Allied Kubrows and Kavats have decreased cooldowns on their precepts and have one free revive. My Feedback great change, fun and thematic, though many want it to work on sentinels, I feel that’s missing the point but haters gonna hate.

Still no word on any stat changes. My Feedback needs more armor, maybe higher power pool, though these may be addressed with a prime.

Augments will likely see some changes, but we don’t know what just yet.

ETA: “SOON”, they are suggesting April, but, I think they need to give it more time.

I want to know what you think. Drop your feedback below, and remember keep it civil.

[redeyedtreefrog]

5 hours ago, Prinny13 said:

Also his Renewal better affect all allies within the range if it were like a pulse otherwise what a waste, it also better start to drain when it begins healing, if it were to travel and drain before it began healing then this ability is just...... :/ 

You see, all of the possible complaints to renewal always seem to boil down to that nasty channeled healing drain. It is a terrible mechanic that makes modding for (phoenix) renewal directly counterintuitive to modding for hallowed ground, or smite infusion. The only way to keep oberon's kit viable is to go heavy on duration, which turns renewal into a short effect that gets even shorter if you're not at incredibly low HP (hell, it's an affect that can sometimes NEVER take effect, if you're just topping off HP). Removing this mechanic will cause modding for one ability to benefit all of the other abilities just as much, creating a natural synergy in the modding system. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

I honestly don't know what DE has in store for us, but it looks like Renewal is getting pushed aside even though for quite some time a majority of us want this ability to have a simpler functionality algorithm-wise than simplicity in synergy on the battlefield.

It would seem that this is indeed the case. What's disappointing is, we the players have a clear majority on what we wanted done with renewal, and the changes seem relatively reasonable, even with his new kit.