[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[PsiWarp]

Some additional thoughts:

• Condemn not granting Overshields because its CC is overridden by other Warframes' CC (not chaining enemies at all) really hurts Harrow's survivability and gameplay flow.
• Thurible's aura when coupled with bright energy colors are very distracting when trying to aim at enemies on the other side.
• Some way to increase energy conversion rate for Thurible, aside from modding for high Power Strength and Power Efficiency, would be nice.
• Any chance for Penance to be an upper body animation (able to move during cast) instead of full body (forced to stand still)? Losing shields already puts me at a huge disadvantage, nevermind being a sitting duck as well.
• Covenant doesn't affect Companions! Trying to tank for damage while invulnerable means bringing my Sentinel into a suicide mission.

Edited July 3, 2017 by PsiWarp

[Darkvramp]

or just make the protection phase recastable during the retaliation phase

[SenorClipClop]

Honestly, with his hard CC I don't really have any issues with a lack of repeated access to the invincibility phase. I can root everything, and if the fire has been really intense, the insane crit buff to my whole team usually means everything gets melted anyway. But if that weren't enough, as long as you have Penance active the damage buff from 4 will ensure heaps of instant health regen via percent lifesteal. Your shields may go down, but beyond getting one-shot (which is an issue for any frame, not just Harrow) he sustains himself and the team pretty comfortably. Every Warframe is also built with at least a little survivability too, so everyone's pretty safe with even only occasional invincibility.

I wouldn't mind if he could shut off the ult and recast from the beginning for an expense invincibility phase over and over, but I wouldn't really care and probably wouldn't make use of it.

[Azimbee]

After tons of labbing and experimentation with Harrow, I've narrowed down what they need more than anything to excel. They are comparable to Trinity and Banshee.

As a solo frame Harrow needs more survival traits. They lacks any form of damage mitigation or raw tanking potential outside of a very narrow CC AOE. It only controls what's in front of them and is a slow cc projectile at that. The only damage mitigation they gets is invincibility for very short intervals. This is simply not enough for Solo Play.

When playing with a team, survival is less of an issue as you have teammates drawing aggro, but Harrow still fails due to lacking decent kills per second on their own. One is forced to kill things to contribute with energy regen. While this is not so with Penance and Covenant as it uses tenno affinity, it's still not fun at all to use them in a team setting.

Since Penance and Covenant are damage buffs that work just fine, we can compare Harrow to Banshee here. Since Thurible needs tweaks anyway... why not give Harrow some damage mitigation with it? Not directly mind you, but indirectly. Like how Silence works functionally for Banshee.

Void Incense can conceivably affect the mind, so perhaps a combination of making enemies more sluggish and slow to react while also reducing their accuracy if they are within Thurible's aura. 

Mods not dedicated to helping Harrow survive can free up space to increase the quality of life for Harrow.

Edited July 3, 2017 by TheLegendTamer

[Azimbee]

Harrow is comparable to Banshee and runs into the same problem of having impressive damage buffs but lacking survivability. The difference is Banshee has enough CC to get by, and Harrow does not. Harrow's in a weird spot right now of being somewhere between Trinity and Banshee but losing out on what makes both of them effective.

Edited July 3, 2017 by TheLegendTamer

[hukurokuju5]

2 minutes ago, TheLegendTamer said:

Harrow is comparable to Banshee and runs into the same problem of having impressive damage buffs but lacking survivability. The difference is Banshee has enough CC to get by, and Harrow does not. Harrow's in a weird spot right now of being somewhere between Trinity and Banshee but losing out on what makes both of them effective.

well said

[LascarCapable]

19 hours ago, Navarchus said:

I think if he is to receive these buffs, then his stats should be lowered. He already has more armour than fighters like ash on 65 armour even more than Volt Prime who is at 100, as much as Ash Prime or Oberon is where he's at. 150 Armour.
You're comparing his buff from his 2 to Volts shields, but Volt has 15 armour meanwhile Harrow is sitting on 150 armour making him melee viable. He's as good if not better than a lot of casters while having the stats of the fighting focused warframes. 

If he's going to be buffed which would be really nice since DE has focused so much on his abilities, I think lowering his stats should happen because I just don't see how a cloth wearing monk is meant to be beefier than someone like Hydroid, Ash & Volt. He should be somewhere around Nekros with armour. 
And these stats will only appear higher once shield-gating rolls out due to Harrows crazy shields.

TLDR: I do think all your improvements are excellent suggestions but I do think they're over the top considering his capabilities he already has basically.

His stats are above average, but they're fine. We have to see the Warframe as a whole : Harrow does not have a way to CC massively. His survivability methods heavily relies on shields (who are not seen as a decent way of survival, unlike armor) and it's user's skills, and his only "oh crap" button won't work for long with a two seconds animation that will prevent all movement, giving you even less time to get the hell out. 

Unlike Inaros, Frost, Volt, Loki, Rhino, Ivara... A bit everyone actually, Harrow does not have a way to reliably prevent himself from being damaged, either with strong CC skills, invisibility, or just ways to block incoming damage, hence his above average stats. 150 armor looks like a lot, but it's still low compared to most tank based warframes around. And if Harrow's stats are too big, what can we say about Oberon ? That guy has above average stats as well : same armor than Harrow, same health, same speed, a little less shields, but much more energy. And clearly more survivability than Harrow, thanks to Renewal.

 

[samuelx43a]

I'm on the way to getting him, only missing his systems. I've seen him in action, animations look cool, except for the self-flogging, which really creeps me out and could mean not having the frame itself(I dont like it cos I'm protestant, but that is me, and should not influence the game just because I dont like a certain animation)

Other than that, his systems drop on the defect or the spy?

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

On 1/7/2017 at 7:13 PM, D20 said:

Being able to use weapons while using Thurible could definitely be something nice to have.

that's a good idea, at least secondary weapons or melee, much like u can when you carry a datamass with one hand and you can use melee or pistol with the other , he could swing the thurible with one and be able to contribute to the fight with a secondary/melee as well while moving around

My 2 cents on Penance  is that it needs to add a flat % of damage mitigation if not 75% like a blessing at least a 50%, in that case his huge overshields can become somewhat more useful

His lifesteal and his 4th can deal with anything else that's going to bypass his shields aka slash/toxin procs.

All the other suggetions i had in mind have been pretty much covered already in the threads so i'll leave it as it is for now

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by arm4geddon-117

[Toran]

General Feedback:
Great design and fun-to-play warframe who's support skills are kill-based, kinda Trinity's sinister brother. His efficiency is only as good as his weapons (and your aiming skill), keep that in mind. I expect to see less love for him from console players (aiming). Overall, Harrow's a supporter for Harrow, mostly. A few tweaks could make him really utilarian:

• Overshield for allies too
• Increase Thurible's basic range to 25+m
• Make Covenant recastable (maybe reduce invulnerability timer on recast)

Ability Feedback:
Condemn:
Nice CC: the enemies are fixed in position and they're heads are exposed and thus easier to hit than with Rhino's stomp or Nezha's Divine Spears).
Negative: The resulting Overshields work with Harrow only. Why? Allies should benefit too (without the help of a very likely future augment mod).

Penance:
His strongest ability. Works best with accurate high ROF (rate of fire) weapons or slow reloading hard-hitters. Had great fun with Tigris Prime, Akstilleto Prime, Supra Vandal (with Guided Ordnance), Vaykor Marelok and Aklex Prime to name a few.
Tipps: The skill is good as is. As you lose your complete shields, a high vitality is rather useful. You can use Condemn right after to replenish shields. I prefer high vitality.

Thurible:
Works great (on yourself) aslong you use reliable weapons.
Negative: Range of 15m. That's pretty useless for group support. This should be 50m as the Penance skill or at least 25m (as Trinity's Energy Vampire). Sure, you can increase the range with mods, but the only other skill affected by range mods is Condemn and it feels like a waste.
Tipps: Enemy Radar's handy when it comes to timing Thurible. Headshots work best of course, alternatively use shotguns or Tonkor for AE kills, syndicate weapons and their proc work great too (to a certain enemy level).

Covenant:
The ability is very situational and takes long to cast. I don't know if I want to use Natural Talent here, as the other skills are rather fast to cast and work well without it.
Very Negative: you cannot recast covenant aslong its buff is active. If the cast timing was bad and resulted in a weak buff you have to stick to it till the end. As the other skills benefit from longer duration this might become a bit annoying.
Tipps: Only use the skill when you're taking damage, don't waste it for low buffs. The crit buffs are additive, so you can use it well with low-crit weapons like Nukor. Due to the unreliable, situational nature of the ability I don't recommend to work out a build around it. Against high-level enemies you might want to use it as emergency tool (invulnerability). 

[Toran]

2 hours ago, samuelx43a said:

I'm on the way to getting him, only missing his systems. I've seen him in action, animations look cool, except for the self-flogging, which really creeps me out and could mean not having the frame itself(I dont like it cos I'm protestant, but that is me, and should not influence the game just because I dont like a certain animation)

Other than that, his systems drop on the defect or the spy?

Defect as C Rotation reward (every 8 squads rescued). I suggest Saturn-Caracoal.

[Fallen_Echo]

23 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Imagine Harrow channeling Thurible for 16 Energy per kill, then having a Nova 4-2 combo wipe a room and give everyone 100+ energy for their (low) efforts.

Dude, in a pub match thats already counts as high level teamplay.l

[Evanescent]

Condemn: 

Great skill, no problems here. Allies should receive shields from condemn as well.

 

Penance: 

1)Energy cost should be removed. or lowered as it already eats your entire shield-pool. 

2)All allies need to able to participate in the healing phase. RIght now only Harrow can trigger the healing, make it so that allies can heal each other too. This will have some excellent team synergy in higher levels.

3)Duration cap should be increased or removed. 

4)Harrow should be able to keep moving while casting. Keeping it two handed is fine, but make it upper body animation only please.

 

Thurible:

1)All allies should be able to replenish energy for the whole team by shooting enemies, not just harrow.

2)Charging speed should be increased

 

Covenant:

1)Animation feels too long-you lose most of the protection phase's duration recovering from the cast animation. Begin damage absorption after animation has ended please.

2)I would like a way to skew the duration towards buff or protection phase.

 

Other issues:

This deals with the mechanic of overshields. I believe they should protect against slash and/or toxin procs. It is possible to one shot harrow through full shields with toxin procs and damage in high levels.

Headshots are finicky I noticed this especially when trying out the Knell, but almost all enemies do not register headshots from behind and the sides even if your crosshair is directly over their heads. Headshots need to be fixed. Note that this is especially prevalent with the Grineeer and the Infested.

In squads, Harrow is often repressed by team-mates especially if they are playing with high-damage aoe setups such as a nuke Saryn or Peacemaker Mesa. The suggestions provided should at least ensure that Harrow does not have to compete for kills to remain effective but rather benefit from his team's dps potential.

 

Closing remarks and observations:

Harrow seems to be designed around the concept of shield-gating to ensure his survivability. If shield-gating does not make it in for other warframes I hope that it is at least applied to Harrow.

Otherwise, apply shield-gating to Overshields granted by Harrow.

.Harrow is the most well-designed Warframe I have ever seen since release. The craftsmanship that went into him is mind-blowing. Congratulations to the Art team.

Harrow's abilities are also quite intuitive. They embrace true synergy and work together to make his kit work. They also have a satisfying visceral feel to them, making them enjoyable to use.

With a few tweaks I think he fills the role of an offensive support role wonderfully, without losing his ability to solo.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Evanescent

[jinxeverything]

On 7/2/2017 at 1:18 PM, D20 said:

I don't think suggesting things without trying the frame first is something wise. :/

Ok, I did buy Harrow and began to use him (planning to throw a forma or 2 on him) and here are my thoughts.

Condemn, not bad in any way but can be better.

This ability when faced in general direction, the chains will go there but when Harrow aim down (at his feet) the chains will become an AoE in 360 degree ability that chains anything around him.

Penance, replace healing/ lifesteal with over-shielding to anything within x range, once the shield is in over-shield stat the player will get electricity discharge surrounding them shocking anything that tries to get close to them.  

 Thurible,  I would like to change it to a level up type of ability.

You cast the ability then score 100 energy by using it once the par is full you press 3 again to level it up, once you done leveling it up its duration can be restored!

Level 1 : Body shot grants 3 energy and head shots grants 6 energy, this ability last 30 seconds.

Level 2 : Body shots grants 12 energy and head shots grants 24 energy, this ability last 60 seconds.

Ok I lowered the amount of energy we can get in favored of duration restoration, head shots grants 10 seconds to the ability every 5 seconds once and multiple head shots don't count, 60 seconds is the cap and can not be exceeded but can be restored with head shots.

Covernant, add lifesteal to it.

Passive, like I suggested before!

Well, what ya think?

[LascarCapable]

Good analysis, good change suggestions. I would add the following.

• Thurible needs to do something else aside from giving energy as well. Considering that most users runs their Warframe in a way that allows them to spam powers and have little to no energy issues, this makes Thurible a lackluster power if your team runs Zenurik or full efficiency setups.
• Being able to use your guns while Thurible is loading could be great considering how long it can take to load.
• If Penance's energy cost does not get lowered or removed, the fire speed and reload speed buffs at least needs to be awarded to allies as well. So far, only Harrow benefit from those buffs.

[Evanescent]

2 minutes ago, D20 said:

Good analysis, good change suggestions. I would add the following.

• Thurible needs to do something else aside from giving energy as well. Considering that most users runs their Warframe in a way that allows them to spam powers and have little to no energy issues, this makes Thurible a lackluster power if your team runs Zenurik or full efficiency setups.
• Being able to use your guns while Thurible is loading could be great considering how long it can take to load.
• If Penance's energy cost does not get lowered or removed, the fire speed and reload speed buffs at least needs to be awarded to allies as well. So far, only Harrow benefit from those buffs.

Or...^{thurble as exalted flail wep omgomgomg}

[LascarCapable]

Just now, Evanescent said:

Or...^{thurble as exalted flail wep omgomgomg}

This is something I want to see as an augment.

Ragdolling enemies with the thurible could be insanely fun. :')

[k05h]

Thank you for this analysis. I am glad that you mentioned most points I struggle with when it comes to Harrow. 

I really do not understand why I would use thurible. It takes ages to build up where I cannot do anything. If I have it running I drown in energy but I have nothing where I would spend all this energy on. 

My cynical review of Harrow's kit is:

• a less effective but better looking desiccation ability (Inaros 1)
• the other 3 abilities are what a smeeta kavat and zenurik & energy siphon do for the rest of my frames anyways

 

[Evanescent]

5 minutes ago, D20 said:

This is something I want to see as an augment.

Ragdolling enemies with the thurible could be insanely fun. :')

Swinging Truth:

Enemies struck by thurible's swings are dealt X% health as damage and ragdolled.

[LascarCapable]

Just now, Evanescent said:

Swinging Truth:

Enemies struck by thurible's swings are dealt X% health as damage and ragdolled.

Perfect. 

[samuelx43a]

1 hour ago, Toran said:

Defect as C Rotation reward (every 8 squads rescued). I suggest Saturn-Caracoal.

Much apreciated. Thanks!

[Lored]

30 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Thurible:

1)All allies should be able to replenish energy for the whole team by shooting enemies, not just harrow.

Agree only with this.

[Echorion]

He really isn't a very team friendly support. A lot of his abilities only support himself, or only support the team if he is landing HIS headshots and such.

That doesn't seem like a very good support mechanic imo.

[Evanescent]

21 minutes ago, k05h said:

Thank you for this analysis. I am glad that you mentioned most points I struggle with when it comes to Harrow. 

I really do not understand why I would use thurible. It takes ages to build up where I cannot do anything. If I have it running I drown in energy but I have nothing where I would spend all this energy on. 

My cynical review of Harrow's kit is:

• a less effective but better looking desiccation ability (Inaros 1)
• the other 3 abilities are what a smeeta kavat and zenurik & energy siphon do for the rest of my frames anyways

 

Ah I see.

The problem most people have with thurible is that they either undercharge or don't capitalise on headshots.

I've found that it's best to for for 10 energy/kill and then land consistent headshots. Remember that each headshot gives your x4 energy. With a small group of energy you can quickly fill up your tank. 

You could also use somethin like the Zenistar to constantly rack up small bits of energy that keep your tank filled.

 

[Evanescent]

5 minutes ago, Echorion said:

He really isn't a very team friendly support. A lot of his abilities only support himself, or only support the team if he is landing HIS headshots and such.

That doesn't seem like a very good support mechanic imo.

That's not true! His Penance and Thurible supply allies with health and energy while his Covenant gives them short godmode plus a nice crit buff. That's a good support right there.

Like I say in team situations he has to compete for kills, which is easily fixed by letting ally kills and shots also generate health and energy.