If We Are Gonna Get More Raids. We Gonna Need Actual instructions This Time

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

So it took me awhile to realize. Playing all 3 raids in Warframe. Lotus literally gives you 0 instructions. Is figuring out how to do raids part of the challenge? Because if so. That is literally no fun at all. Especially with the Jordan’s Verdit.

The 3rd stage inside Jordas. Okay we kill a nerve. Your gonna tell us how or where it is lotus? No? Cool. Seriously. Giving us instructions or marking a starting waypoint won’t make the raids any easier but would sure make teaching them to new player a heck of a lot easier.

When we get a corpus raid. DE pls start actually giving us information. Just having players jump in blind having us figure out what to do is no fun. Just frustrating. More lotus/Operator dialogue for raids and helpful waypoints would greatly be appreciated.

[Voltage]

I would love to see a new raid. What is the point of a puzzle if you get exactly how to do it the first time? I have to disagree, and the basic instruction we have now is fine.

[Podge]

yeah, i'd rather not have clear instructions. it adds to the immersion.  going in there, not knowing what you're up against, and the lotus has limited intel. you dont know what to expect. if th lotus told you how t do everything then it wouldnt be as fun.

[Final_Heartbeat]

Unfortunate

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I'd like nightmare JV and some new arcanes at least.

[TheErebus.]

Destiny 1 and 2 don't tell you nothing about how to do the raids and that's a good thing, you and your team should try to figure it out for yourselves. If you really wanna know what to do first time going in, just wait a day or two and the guides will already be up for it

[Suncake]

Warframe doesn't really bother to give you all the needed info. You always have to use forums and wiki and search for guides, and raids are supposed to bring extra challenge to the game, so why would you want to be held by the hand through them? It's unfun and against the immersion. You can easily search up the info you want, or you can learn it the hard (but fun) way.

[-CLM-Joker]

27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

When we get a corpus raid.

I'm pretty sure devs ruled out the idea of a new raid for a long while, so i'd not expect it anytime soon :/

Meanwhile, if you're struggling with the Jordas Verdict, i'd suggest to take a look at this guide (mind that the team composition is a bit outdated, but anything else is basically the same).

 

[ChatNinja]

Has there ever been an official Raid for anything that was fully explained? Every Raid I'm aware of people had to figure out entirely on their own

[aligatorno]

1 hour ago, Suncake said:

Warframe doesn't really bother to give you all the needed info. You always have to use forums and wiki and search for guides, and raids are supposed to bring extra challenge to the game, so why would you want to be held by the hand through them? It's unfun and against the immersion. You can easily search up the info you want, or you can learn it the hard (but fun) way.

And look where the "non-hand holding, no explaining" got them. Even they said they lost money on these raids hence why there won't be any, only around 1% of the player base bother with them, they are on par with conclave, only Lunaro is worse. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by aligatorno

[(XBOX)dude1286]

Some of the raid sections are now more elaborate sections of the star map missions.

LoR 1 - Earth Sabotage + Sabotage 2.0

LoR 2 - Hijack with pads from area 1. First part should be added to unlock the Lech Kril boss room to introduce players to the mechanic.

LoR 3 - Use 1 and 2 to start fighting Bay Hek.

JV 1 - Archwing is entirely new, maybe add an AW Sabotage to Eris to introduce the mechanics. Part 2 was introduced with Nidus.

JV 2 - Use the mechanic from previous WF section to get through a door and move an elevator up a shaft.

JV 3 - AW part has similarities with AW in part 1. Add a Sabotage type mission to Eris to introduce the mechanic inside Jordas.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

3 hours ago, aligatorno said:

around 1% of the player base bother with them, they are on par with conclave, only Lunaro is worse. 

More people would probably do them if 

1. 90% of the rewards weren't absolute trash
2. They hadn't started out with so many glitches & bugs that turned them off to so many people early on.  This even goes to new bugs introduced with updates - I stopped doing JV for quite a while when the number of glitches that were likely to occur mid-mission made it too frustrating to bother with until they fixed them.
3. The raid required EVERYONE to have a key so there wouldn't be anymore automatic fails if the host gets disconnected due to network issues, the game crashing, etc...
4. There was matchmaking for them - perhaps hard to implement effectively but It'd be awesome if I could put up a key, then in the open slots specify frames I'd been willing to take.  Anyone who has that frame could automatically get paired up and fill the slot or something like that
5. There was a little more in-game guidance on the objectives (NOTE: I'm not a proponent of this - i like the challenge of having to figure it out as you go)
6. The raiding community was a little more open to bringing newbies with them - this of course will never happen as its frustrating to take 40+ minutes to complete (or worse fail) something that should take 20 minutes or less.

Point 1,2, and 3 are well within DE's ability to fix and point 1 is the BIGGEST of all them.

Point 4 or some variant could be implemented with a little though

 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

5 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I'd like nightmare JV and some new arcanes at least.

I don't see the former happening, but I believe that they've said that PoE will contain new arcanes in some fashion.

[Misgenesis]

Knowing exactly what to do and expect just makes the whole experience boring from the start. Pretty sure most games with raids have never given instructions beforehand.

While it can be frustrating at the start, its very satisfying to gradually learn new things and master it. Some of the most fun ive had has been doing raids in FFXIV, too bad its a hassle to get into one in Warframe

Edited October 5, 2017 by Misgenesis

[phoenix1992]

The point in any raid in any game is the thrill of working out mechanics.
But there are guides in the first hours for those with less time and nerves.

PS: DE and Trials got divorced for some time, doubt there will be new trial, and if it is - Do you really want to think about Corpus Trial? With the final boss being a giant Bursa?

PS 2: If DE think that they lost money because Trials exist, not because they are a buggy mess with dumpster reward system... Well it would not be the first time they are mistaking what caused what.

Edited October 5, 2017 by phoenix1992

[Corvid]

44 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

PS 2: If DE think that they lost money because Trials exist, not because they are a buggy mess with dumpster reward system... Well it would not be the first time they are mistaking what caused what.

They believe Trials cost them money because they require a lot of one-time-use code, for something that only a niche in the community actually engages in.

[phoenix1992]

13 minutes ago, Corvid said:

They believe Trials cost them money because they require a lot of one-time-use code, for something that only a niche in the community actually engages in.

For the sake of the argument, I would make some broad assumptions. Please, the point is for the argument, not in order to undermine you, your knowledge or experience.

1. Raids are supposed to be coordinated end game. They have proved time and time again in multiple formats, that they can be successful and bring high retention from the "elite few". Vanilla Wow had one of the worst raids - both from attendance (was it 1-2%?) and from mechanical point of view - yet they cranked up a lot of them and even if people were not aware of what happens within the raids, they were aware that those raids exists.  Hell even Destiny gets it right, and Destiny is a catastrophe.
2. Raids as lore propelling device -  LoR has it. JV does not.
3. Raids as a way to insensitive people to have longer term relationships with the game. Both of Warframe's trials are not doing that. I don't need "time to prepare" myself, my gear 5-6 forma gear does not matter. Everyone that has tangled with the raids, knows that a T3 deff sortie takes a lot more than LoR or JV.
4. Turn over rate - due to crappy reward system, lack of engaging mechanics and bugs. So many bloody bugs. 

I am not saying that the divide between raiders and non raiders does not exist - of course it does. But the way in which DE set up the raids gave them rather limited life span. It does not call upon the thrill of the Challenge of the true raider. It does not call upon the Greedy Looter. It does not even call upon the player that just wants to play with his friends on a bigger scale.

PS: The assumption is that you have not raided in other games or visited the WF trials. 
PS 2 (Edit):  It did not help the cases of both WF trials, that they came out in the time of arguably the worst Meta. 99% bless Trin and CC locks 24/7. It really killed my experience that I could just ignore the mechanics in JV due to 99% damage reduction 24/7

Edited October 5, 2017 by phoenix1992

[o0Despair0o]

Most people here claim that we don't need better instructions, but I disagree.

I'm not asking for Lotus to basically give us a step-by-step tutorial how to complete the raid, but come on. Ever since I started to play Warframe about 3 years ago I was never told even once what the F I'm supposed to do in ANY of the raids. I drop in, I get shot at, and run around pressing all sorts of buttons on the map while trying to figure out what the hell my objective is. It's annoying and my teams never bothered to explain anything either, so I just gave up and to this day never completed a single raid. And never will.

I'm done with this crap.

[CarrotSalad]

3 hours ago, Corvid said:

They believe Trials cost them money because they require a lot of one-time-use code, for something that only a niche in the community actually engages in.

Fascintating that reason... Dragon Nest which i think have produced some of the best raids built allot of the mechanics into thier PVE normal dungeon stages and 4 man nest sections. Itwasnt a clear copy and paste but there was very clear similarities you'd notice in normal dungeons that upon analysing and learning the raid were obvious ripped from PVE stages. Dragon nest has tonnes of varied like that though while warframe doesnt really offer that much variety.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

as someone who has done most of his raiding in Destiny (arguably the best/only good part of that game), and a couple runs of LoR, I believe that most of the difficulty associated with raids is the initial learning curve: if you are told specifically how to do a particular step, you'll do it in a few attempts, taking into account failures due to timing issues,communication errors, being killed in combat etc. it won't feel like a much of a challenge. whereas going in with little too no knowledge means it takes more attempts, causing you to spend more time in the raid which in turn gives the illusion of a bigger challenge. once you know the methods and can communicate effectively, any raid is easy (or at least easier).

DE keep you in the dark in the hopes that your will to conquer the game takes over, and makes you curious as to how to beat the raid. it doesn't always work, but it's a place for teams of people to test their co-ordination skills. personally I'm more of a lone wolf player myself, and the problem with raids is that you need other people, and that means organising when you can actually get around to doing said raid because everyone is online at different times etc.

personally I believe we need a trial that tests ALL parts of being a Warframe player: marksmanship, melee combat, Parkour, some puzzles, teamwork and being able to do multiple things at once: no ridiculous invincible enemies, no elaborate boss summoning ritual; such things are there to provide challenge where none would otherwise exist. we should be tested on the skills we use every day, but in ways we wouldn't normally think of using them: we CAN shoot while wall running, but we never do because there's no need. if you want to raid you should have to practice how to do that.

personally i hope that we get an Orokin trial next, the white and gold rooms of the Destiny 2 raid have reminded me that if any raid has potential, it's an Orokin one. maybe with enhanced and more challenging versions of the 7 principle Rooms we see on Lua as well.

 

[-CLM-Joker]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

More people would probably do them if 

1. 90% of the rewards weren't absolute trash
2. They hadn't started out with so many glitches & bugs that turned them off to so many people early on.  This even goes to new bugs introduced with updates - I stopped doing JV for quite a while when the number of glitches that were likely to occur mid-mission made it too frustrating to bother with until they fixed them.
3. The raid required EVERYONE to have a key so there wouldn't be anymore automatic fails if the host gets disconnected due to network issues, the game crashing, etc...
4. There was matchmaking for them - perhaps hard to implement effectively but It'd be awesome if I could put up a key, then in the open slots specify frames I'd been willing to take.  Anyone who has that frame could automatically get paired up and fill the slot or something like that
5. There was a little more in-game guidance on the objectives (NOTE: I'm not a proponent of this - i like the challenge of having to figure it out as you go)
6. The raiding community was a little more open to bringing newbies with them - this of course will never happen as its frustrating to take 40+ minutes to complete (or worse fail) something that should take 20 minutes or less.

Point 1,2, and 3 are well within DE's ability to fix and point 1 is the BIGGEST of all them.

Point 4 or some variant could be implemented with a little though

I would like to add one thing.
Community hosted dedicated servers just like the ones conclave already has: a lot of people don't raid (or do it only in rare occasions) because they simply can't find someone with a good enough setup (connection/PC). Not to mention that the host could have connection/PC problems, or the game itself could crash (happened a lot in the past, thankfully a lot of those crashes were fixed but it still happens from time to time).