[Console] Operation: Plague Star!

[--RV--Jax]

@DE.Rebecca You've asked for constructive feedback regarding the announcement of the delayed start to Tactical Alert, I mean, Operation: Plague Star. Here is mine.

While watching  Dev Stream 100 there was a hyped introduction to a long awaited operation which we as players look forward to in order to compete against the puzzles, trials, and environment for a reward not readily available through daily missions and in game opportunities. Along with the announcement of the return of Snipetron, you also announced new Zaw items with an infested flair or spin off from the cetus norm. These announcements, coupled with the creative mid stream interruption of a meteor crashing on the plains, created large amounts of hype and we got on board the train eagerly awaiting a chance to begin the challenges. 

Jumping forward to today's announcements, the hype train is climbing up the hill of doubt and we are mixed with disappointment, anxiety, and diminishing hope. In our hearts we cling to the hope of creative game play, enjoyable missions with obtainable rewards. We know there will be a farming/grind aspect to the event, because this game is what it is in that regard. There is a lot to still be hyped about: New Zaws that we're hoping will contribute to MR and possibly enjoyable weapons to use in game; new mods that nobody has so there will be opportunity for collectors and traders to make deals; returning items to balance the economy (Sacrifice and Fulmination mods), and weapons that may be needed to reach a  higher level of mastery rank; leaderboards to track clan participation, set up friendly competition among Tenno, and cement clan legacy in an event; and finally participation rewards for fashion frame and standing.

You see, there is a small problem that could've been avoided, but the development team has seen fit to remove a key piece of enjoyment from the operation. If the reactions on this forum thread show anything, it shows that you can't please everyone, but if you purposefully remove a key aspect to an event thinking it will remove 'toxicity,' you in effect create a toxic environment as you trigger the salt reflex in competitive gamers. This small, loyal, and contributing base of players not only use leaderboards to measure where the clan is during the event, but also to measure how active the members are, see how they stack up against other competitive clans, give veteran players a reason to return to the game they are taking a break from, and cement their legacy in game laying claim to an achievement that will remain part of the game for its life cycle. It may be too late to bring a leaderboard to this event, but please remember in the future that its not just an "epeen measurement."

 It is too early to provide final feedback of the operation, as it hasn't even kicked off yet. I will try to remember to leave a follow up for you after I have participated in the event. What is being included with the event holds potential to be fulfilling in its own right. I am hoping the grind and RNG is favorable, and hope that in the future the DE team will bring back leaderboards in a way that allows us to take pride in our gameplay as we play together in friendly competition. 

[-TSA-Rubicon2.0]

3 minutes ago, Nation_X said:

But without leaderboards  

[-Kramer-]

I'm wondering if 10 days is really enough to farm all this things..............

[Alcoholism]

10 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Sorry to disappoint but for this event they won't be there. Dark Sectors redesign/smashing is long overdue also but still nothing major to talk about there... we definitely miss days of competitive clans (as long as it wasn't toxic).

Remember all: if you have something constructive to add about what you like about competitive leaderboards for future designs (not this Operation), this is definitely the time and place to do it. We're here reading for that reason.

I think you guys are heading in the right direction by removing leaderboards (for now). A lot of the time these "top clans" in previous operations would use exploits to get to the top and by the time others learned about it, it was patched. This left those "top clans" with an insane amount of points making it close to impossible to catch them legitimately.

I believe that a good solution for future operations is to fully release an operation that gives rewards (for a week without a leaderboard) to iron out any potential bugs/glitches/exploits. Then the following weekend allow the operation to have a leaderboard so that clans can prove themselves over that weekend.

[Lokadrsu]

New operation hmm? I will participate, I will probably enjoy it, looking forward to the new content. But there is something that interests me more. The changes that were presented in devstream 100 - specificaly the bounty changes and focus changes, when will those be implemented?

Also, POE is still buggy af, along with the host migration problem, i think this is still something that needs to be looked into, as soon as the devs are not busy about the operation

[ChaosMarine]

I'm curious as to why everyone isn't surrounding the boil with flame throwers and roasting it.

[cob_metallica]

Why not releasing the Teralyst sigil into this event as well? it has been a mess for players to get it due to bugs and even if it is still available nowadays, it is almost impossible to find a partner who didn't make the achievement.

[Kurambik]

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

EVENT REWARDS!
Much like the way we used a token system for the Ambulas Reborn event, we have taken that idea one step further. REMINDER: NAKAK, the oddities vendor, represents the OPERATIONAL SUPPLY Syndicate for Operation: Plague Star!

Visit NAKAK with earned standing to choose your Operation Rewards!

No Wraith/Vandal weapon?? :(

[-Exenon-]

2 hours ago, Nation_X said:

Agreed, whilst they are having an epeen waving match the rest of us will be enjoying the event.

Then why are you even here again?

2 hours ago, Aeromancer said:

Or maybe DE just doesn't want to lose the players they gained through the recent Twitch promotion because of the 'competition' that comes with leaderboards and have negative articles written by pcgamer about the toxic side of the community, so they removed it for this upcoming operation which may be a smart move.

The "toxic" side does exist in the form of people like sh00chu calling everyone out. But during operations the only "salty" not "toxic" (don't get the 2 mixed up) people are the ones that in the end, don't put much effort in.

[-Exenon-]

1 hour ago, khabby said:

Thank you for no leaderboards. I do like some competition but i do not like affinity/mastery items locked behind a temporary clan event so if that is the reason there is no leaderboards now, i cheer. I do understand people want the leaderboards, to see how your clan is doing so solely for that reason id like them too... as long as there are no items attached that give affinity (i dont mind cosmetics).

What items are locked behind a few clans, Ignis Wraith? We give that stuff away on a regular basis, and even if people sell it it's still 5-10P~.

[DoomFruit]

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Konzu has received reports that Vay Hek possesses a toxin that can destroy the boil. But Vay Hek won’t help; he sees this infested boil as a means to rid the Plains of Cetus and the Ostrons.

Can... can we instead help Hek out here? I for one want to bulldoze that shanty town and get rid of the eye-seller and all that annoying swazdo-lah.

[--RV--Ne_NobodyDS]

1 hour ago, sh00chu said:

To use your professional sports example; Let's say you have a hockey team (clan), and there are literally tens of thousands of other teams (clans). Now let's say that out of all of those tens of thousands of teams (clans) only about 100, or even 1000 are interested in competing for the Stanley Cup, while the rest of the teams (clans), again, numbering in the tens of thousands are indifferent to the competition, at best. Let's also say that a disproportionately large number of the competitive teams (clans) tend to get into arguments that invariably end in brawls with not only their fellow competitors (clans), but also the league organizers (DE), and teams (clans) that don't even care about competing for the Cup.

Now here's the important part. The league organizers (DE) are going to set up a new tournament. They have a choice between spending extra time and money creating a trophy only for the winner, which the past has demonstrated ends up causing brawls that have a negative impact on overall attendance to future tournaments, and that also holds no value to all but a relatively small number of players. OR they can spend that extra time and money making the tournament more fun or interesting for the other tens of thousands of teams, which encourages more overall growth in both the size of the league, and the amount of profit it brings in. From a purely business standpoint, even if it means losing that small number of competitive teams, it simply doesn't make sense to deal with the problems involved with having a trophy when the real money is coming from the casual teams that don't care about standings.

A final thought about the competitive aspect. This is primarily a PVE game. And to be perfectly frank, tacking PVP aspects on to PVE content, in the history of game development, has rarely seen any substantial success. Conclave exists for people that like to do PVP in the Warframe universe. Conclave is by no means perfect, and it definitely won't scratch that itch for whole competitive clans, but it's there. The sad truth (for the competitive clan) is that that kind of large-scale PVP isn't a priority for DE right now, and they have said as much several times in dev streams. I can't really fault people for dreaming of an entire game-sized piece of content that is large scale Warframe PVP, I think it would be pretty cool too. DE took a stab at it with the Solar Rails, but ultimately they just didn't work because of the way this game is built right now. To expect, or even hope for that kind of content happening any time soon, or even at all, in the Warframe that exists now, is setting yourself up for some huge disappointment. 

I have to say that, your insistent talk and your arguments made me think a lot, and i'll thank you for that, it's rare to find someone opening your mind to new perspectives. 

You claimed to be a 4k hours veteran, with "almost" every single item in game, experienced in almost every expect of this game [...]  and you claim leaderboards to be useless and unproductive, cause they don't add anything you like (or anything that the community "really" needs) while, as a Veteran, you're still able to enjoy the "end-game", even if you're already done with everything that concern WF. 

 Being almost in your same "claimed" situation of end-game boredom, i couldn't understand why, and how, could we have such of a different opinion regarding leaderboards, competitive contents, etc.

So i did a quick check at your stats.

You have 2.5k IN-GAME hours, not 4k.

You did 2 raids (trial missions) only in your whole game lifetime.

You're on the lowest rank with the Quills syndicate, this make me SUPPOSE you still didn't even tried (or completed) a succesfull fight against a Teralyst.

You're very far from the so called "end-game", and you still have a lot of content to explore in this game, no matter what you claimed.

Removing one of the few competitive contents of the game, is actually removing something we (my clan, and many others) enjoy, and isn't adding anything good to you, or the "majority of the playerbase", as you were trying to say.

Like for Trials missions, and Teralyst fights, and leaderboards: You don't like this contents? you don't want to play, or try how they works? Fine, no one is forcing you, but you have to realize this: Someone care, no matter how hard you try to lie show us how are you able to enjoy the "endgame" without thoose.

Clans competitions are a good content for many of us, you're not into it? Fine, can't see how this could harm you or whoever doesn't like it.

[Zahnny]

No...New event weapons?...?

[Cyclone]

people salty becouse there will be no leaderboard 

LMAO

honestly, it is crazy to the point it may be a mass trolling

[--RV--Ne_NobodyDS]

3 minutes ago, Cyclone said:

people salty becouse there will be no leaderboard 

LMAO

honestly, it is crazy to the point it may be a mass trolling

not salty (well, not everyone) ...but disappointed. Many of us enjoyed some competitions with past operations, and it being removed without an actual reason, prive us of a good content and a lot of fun

[JayJayTheScrub]

9 hours ago, leadwolf1 said:

AND that is where if you have a larger clan than the smaller one the rewards should be equal not separated so you can not get something. if I am understanding what you are saying? All rewards should be equal, if it was 100  kuva for ghost it should be 100 kuva for moon all being the same , no penalty for size of clan. But you see my way if all 10 players were active and did there best in what ever it was and the 100 player clan only had 20 active doing the event the 10 clan wins for being most active, going by percentage. so if you say you have a clean that is competitive then, even with 1000 active members that clan with the 10 members could have a chance of taking the top spot of the leader board.which goes back to my original post with the example of the 10 percent, for players in clan. 

Nope, you missed what I said, maybe I didn't explain it clearly.  Clan rankings are already based on the tier [as in ghost, shadow, storm, mountain, moon] of the clan (which is the maximum number of members it can contain) along with anything they may need to craft/research. Take for example the hema clan research, that took an average of 100 mutagen samples from each (potential) member to research, meaning for ghost clans (who can have at most 10 members) it needs 1,000 mutagen samples and for moon clans (who can have at most 1,000 members) it needs 100,000 mutagen samples. What you're suggesting is just merging the tiers so that ghosts could compete against moons which is not what all of this leaderboard "discussion" is about.

Note that the rewards such as last event ignis wraith was also given out to the top 10% of each tier so the rewards are not exclusive to moon clans due to the sheer number of members they have

Edited November 11, 2017 by ---RV---JayJay

[(PSN)dst123daniel]

Personally I am disappointed in the loss of the leaderboards for this event. 

I would like DE to give a full explanation of how they came to the decision to remove leaderboards for this event as to me, they do provide something that is not normally available to the long time, seasoned players. A reason to push themselves, to drive as hard as they could for that leaderboard.

Also, from my experience, it also helped get clan members engage with each other, discussing best methods, and assisting newer players with the event.

Excluding the ignis wraith, AFAIK, there hasn't been anything to gain from going past the gold trophy mark other than the that spot on the event leaderboard fixed for all time. So that makes it entirely optional for those who want to drive as far as they can and compete for the top spots. If they don't care about that leaderboard, they don't need to.

So why not have the leaderboard there for those that do? Surely it can't take to much effort to have a leaderboard track a players score of some sort?

With a competitive leaderboard, many competitive clans would recruit new players, and help and teach them how to get the most of the gear they have, and so invaluable knowledge/mods/gear gets passed on to the newer players.

Without them, I think there will certainly be a part of the player Base who will feel there is no need to help other players in their clan improve as it will make no difference to them, and certainly some will think there is no point in recruiting new members to their clan too, and I don't think that is the kind of mentality that would do good for this game

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Navarchus said:

Thank you for not limiting rewards to leaderboards! As was done with Ignis Wraith.

Yes. Let's stop rewarding clans and players who enjoy pushing themselves and give everyone a trophy for trying. ^/s

I hope more events have things like Ignis Wraith. This game is getting easier and easier to obtain gear and items as clearly shown by this event and the economy changes in PoE. It is really concerning that everyone is getting handed all the event rewards, including the trophies, with no incentive to push yourself.

You cannot push yourself in Bounties, and you definitely won't push yourself if there is no reward. I am begging DE to make Braton Vandal from the Relay Operation be locked behind tiers of scores because it is quite frustrating seeing where this game (and community) is going.

 

[TheBossChecker]

Leaderboards would just make it better.  Especially within clans, because if someone does something they can get rewarded, or if someone doesn't they may get demoted/kicked before the next operation because they are unreliable.  This makes it a lot harder for clan leaders to be able to see the progress of what the people in their clan are doing.

 

Quote

You cannot push yourself in Bounties, and you definitely won't push yourself if there is no reward. I am begging DE to make Braton Vandal from the Relay Operation be locked behind tiers of scores because it is quite frustrating seeing where this game (and community) is going.

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by TheBossChecker
Better My Point

[Kudatarkar]

13 hours ago, Rekalty said:

I find the lack of responses disturbing.

Lack of response is good because they might be working on fixing the bug!

[Kalvorax]

so what will be exclusive to this operation? will it ONLY be the event badge and the returning gear (for the love of lotus...why not just find a way to add in ALL past gear into the game already...i missed the supra vandal b/c my clan wasnt on at the time)?

[Braken]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Yes. Let's stop rewarding clans and players who enjoy pushing themselves and give everyone a trophy for trying. ^/s

I hope more events have things like Ignis Wraith. This game is getting easier and easier to obtain gear and items as clearly shown by this event and the economy changes in PoE. It is really concerning that everyone is getting handed all the event rewards, including the trophies, with no incentive to push yourself.

You cannot push yourself in Bounties, and you definitely won't push yourself if there is no reward. I am begging DE to make Braton Vandal from the Relay Operation be locked behind tiers of scores because it is quite frustrating seeing where this game (and community) is going.

 

There's enough content gated behind clans as it is. Be happy with what you have already.

 

You're only proving sh00chu's point about the toxic people these things attract...

 

The ONLY things that should be awards for "pushing" ones-self are cosmetics. Nothing that affects gameplay in any way should be locked behind "leaderboards".

Edited November 11, 2017 by Braken

[-Kaleidoscope-]

Il y a 14 heures, DJNeonNight a dit :

What a good time to have a potato

Pony xd

[-Exenon-]

6 minutes ago, Braken said:

There's enough content gated behind clans as it is. Be happy with what you have already.

 

You're only proving sh00chu's point about the toxic people these things attract...

 

The ONLY things that should be awards for "pushing" ones-self are cosmetics. Nothing that affects gameplay in any way should be locked behind "leaderboards".

"Content gated behind clans", I'm sorry to say there isn't much, Ignis Wraith for the top 10% of clans during The Pacifism Defect is just about it. This game needs content that is harder to get and not handed to you, it puts more relevance to doing something, whether it be getting your clan to the top of the leaderboards or just grinding for something. DE making everything easy to get isn't helping, people get handed items & complain about a lack of content. This both doesn't help DE or the player.

Also Voltage isn't toxic, he's just stating what he believes must come to fruition. You are confused by what "Toxic" means.

We've been asking for DE to give us cosmetics for quiet a while, they haven't heard us.

[Ketec]

I hope the new mod drop rate wont turn into some long mindless grind with "cooldowns" and extra grind to build stuff to run those missions... some people have limited time and lives.