Is being OP worth it?

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

One caveat: that kind of Operator navigation is unavailable to players using Controller, as we Experience horrendous input and response lag for transference and dashing. DE... doesn't seem aware.

Because they don't allow button mapping for operator-specific game play (like general vs lunero) they took the shortcut of overlapping operator slide with void-mode.

The result is to determine if you want to slide vs. void mode, they had to put one or the other on a delay.

They should have put all operator controls on the mapping for "ability menu" so we could perhaps use the D-pad or left trigger for slide and/or void mode with no delay.

Or give us an option in settings to have a long press of left button be the slide and the quick press be the void mode. 

 

[Chipputer]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

One caveat: that kind of Operator navigation is unavailable to players using Controller, as we Experience horrendous input and response lag for transference and dashing. DE... doesn't seem aware.

LifeofRio plays on PS4 though.

[BlackCoMerc]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

Because they don't allow button mapping for operator-specific game play (like general vs lunero) they took the shortcut of overlapping operator slide with void-mode.

The result is to determine if you want to slide vs. void mode, they had to put one or the other on a delay.

They should have put all operator controls on the mapping for "ability menu" so we could perhaps use the D-pad or left trigger for slide and/or void mode with no delay.

Or give us an option in settings to have a long press of left button be the slide and the quick press be the void mode. 

 

Exactly.

They took (another) shortcut. And it's utterly killed the very little appeal this strictly subpar movement and combat system might have offered to controller players.

But then, they did spend a year building a combat system worse in every way than the one already on offer, so, it's no surprise really that they'd do this, too.

[Gandergear]

Youre asking to change the fundamental core of the game, changing a power fantasy ninja flip simulator into standard shooter 10 shots with gun kill enemee. Unless you make a very detailed, very smart feedback post explaining how you want to scale EHP to match weapons damage more accurately, your post is too vague to actually be usedul feedback that hasnt been said elsewhere in a ISP2.5 forum

[DrBorris]

6 minutes ago, Gandergear said:

Youre asking to change the fundamental core of the game, changing a power fantasy ninja flip simulator into standard shooter 10 shots with gun kill enemee. Unless you make a very detailed, very smart feedback post explaining how you want to scale EHP to match weapons damage more accurately, your post is too vague to actually be usedul feedback that hasnt been said elsewhere in a ISP2.5 forum

No... they're not.

 

I will never understand the black and white mindset to this, "It's either Dark Souls or Clicker Heroes".

Someone does not have to give a super in depth topic about how to balance enemy and Warframe EHP. Hell, when someone does nobody reads it because "too many words, need a TL;DR".

Also, IPS rework aka Damage 2.5 does absolutely nothing for the overall "big picture" balance of the game, and it is not intended to. It is polishing what we have, not making anything new.

 

Vague is the point, there needs to be a consensus on what kind of thing people want before you can design specifics. If someone spends 5 hours writing a detailed post on how to do something, but nobody even wanted anything like that something, it is wasted time. These vague topics are the best for DE anyway, they rarely if ever take direct concepts from here. For DE, the Forums are a source of inspiration rather than instruction (which is for the better). Keep in mind I did the dumb and wrote a 10k+ word "rework" for Progression (and is the reason I habitually capitalize "Progression" to this day) at one point.

 

Back to my main point, no... making Warframe less of a button masher does not mean you need 10 shots to kill an enemy, that is the epitome of a straw-man fallacy. NOBODY WANTS IT TO TAKE A LONG TIME TO KILL ENEMIES. Nobody, never, stop it, you are just killing any discussion that could be had. The one thing nearly everyone agrees on is that grunts should die when you look at them funny, the question is how hard you have to look at them (and how long should elites take to kill).

 

Also, this whole "You want to make the game different from what it is". Keep in mind that once upon a time Nyx's Chaos was highly debated as "OP", Boltor Prime was a god killer, and everyone secretly knew Radial Disarm was the most broken thing in the game (but everyone was afraid of the master race). Now we have Octavia and Tigris Prime.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

You bring up a huge aspect of what I've said, that AoE damage on enemies is the killer of warframe. You'll notice that the enemies players complain about most are usually AoE enemies. Bombards, Nullifiers, Napalms, Combas/Scrambus, Sapping Ospreys, Hyekka Masters, Tar Mulalist, etc. all these enemies have an AoE aspect to them that people despise. It's because enemy AoE removes the whole point of the movement system (which is the draw of warframe), is deceptive in its visual range, and since everything is eventually a 1-shot, it is a guaranteed death in an area, which in a close-quarter game like warframe (which prides movement), is a horrible character design.

[KIREEK]

Yes, you can farm, but you will be more effective, make no mistake, having a powerfull weapon and powerfull mods is barely half the equation, player effort and skill will impact the game far more, you will often get more in less time and everything for you will be more productive.

DE does impose a ceiling on many mission types, you can't rush a 10 minute survival alert, excavators always last the same time, core ship sabotages have several steps, bosses have invulnerability stages, all of this and much more is called pacing, DE doesn't want players to be super efficient, but it does reward them if they display effort in missions, for example, if you have 10 minutes, search for ayatan statues and stars, kill as many enemies you can, defeat stalker, defeat sindicates, scan enemies and other objects and in the end you get more credits, more affinity, more endo, more mods, more resources and some of these can be used to gain platinum.

You can have a powerfull tigris and copy a build because you still don't know on how to do your own builds, but you'll always be a shadow of the players that kill hundreds of enemies in a simple capture.

Power is fun, but it's the effort that really changes things up and DE (unlike bungie) will not limit you on certain things, the more you do, the more you get.

[Gandergear]

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

No... they're not.

I call it like I see it.

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I will never understand the black and white mindset to this, "It's either Dark Souls or Clicker Heroes".

Someone does not have to give a super in depth topic about how to balance enemy and Warframe EHP. Hell, when someone does nobody reads it because "too many words, need a TL;DR".

Also, IPS rework aka Damage 2.5 does absolutely nothing for the overall "big picture" balance of the game, and it is not intended to. It is polishing what we have, not making anything new.

-I like Dark Souls, I also like PAYDAY 2. The difference is that one's a power fantasy where you're capable of killing hundreds of enemies in a mission, while the other one evens the playing field.

-I challenged OP to explain what's wrong with the game and you come back with "He don't need to". They identified originally that the AI is bad, but didn't offer ways to make them smarter. Do they want them to be like FEAR or Half Life where they coordinate in squads, use cover, and flank? Neither do they identify what DE has done to assist the problem (grineer deploy blunts and typically bunch up into 3-4 person clusters) nor do they identify what the solution they'd like to see is. In other words, useless, vague criticism.

-It's nerfing slash, which is literally 2 of the 3 'combo examples' which OP incorrectly noted to begin with, since those are weaker combos for high level play.

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Vague is the point, there needs to be a consensus on what kind of thing people want before you can design specifics. If someone spends 5 hours writing a detailed post on how to do something, but nobody even wanted anything like that something, it is wasted time. These vague topics are the best for DE anyway, they rarely if ever take direct concepts from here. For DE, the Forums are a source of inspiration rather than instruction (which is for the better). Keep in mind I did the dumb and wrote a 10k+ word "rework" for Progression (and is the reason I habitually capitalize "Progression" to this day) at one point.

If the consensus was to have all the players behind it then it would be in a general discussion forum, NOT in a feedback forum. OP is requesting a change and he didn't identify what needs to be changed. He brought anecdotes but they don't supplement his thoughts. If he doesn't have any ideas to begin with then there's no point in asking DE to change it, since he doesn't even knows what he wants. It's not like I haven't written a lengthy concise forum post either, though mine only hit 1000 words.

What inspiration is to be had by reading "Maiming strike is overpowered"?

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Back to my main point, no... making Warframe less of a button masher does not mean you need 10 shots to kill an enemy, that is the epitome of a straw-man fallacy. NOBODY WANTS IT TO TAKE A LONG TIME TO KILL ENEMIES. Nobody, never, stop it, you are just killing any discussion that could be had. The one thing nearly everyone agrees on is that grunts should die when you look at them funny, the question is how hard you have to look at them (and how long should elites take to kill

Way to strawman my point by assuming I was talking about semi auto weapons (HA)*. The point of my statement was again, to ask OP to focus his ideas into something that can be criticized and discussed upon. The only thing that kills discussion is by having a 500 word post with nothing to say.

4 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Also, this whole "You want to make the game different from what it is". Keep in mind that once upon a time Nyx's Chaos was highly debated as "OP", Boltor Prime was a god killer, and everyone secretly knew Radial Disarm was the most broken thing in the game (but everyone was afraid of the master race). Now we have Octavia and Tigris Prime.

Again, you construe that I'm against change. As you may have guessed by now, you'd be very wrong and should be ashamed that you've strawmanned my points twice in one post (HA)*. My point was that OP had nothing to say, and couldn't even identify the actual powerful combos (Maiming strike needs blood rush to actually be strong, and condition overload is significantly more powerful, and slash mods besides hunter munitions don't do anything since slash is based on total weapon damage, as clearly stated in the IPS rework details). You could also clearly see I had to guess what his final point was. We're not here to make a feedback post for him.

_*Sarcasm

Edited January 4, 2018 by Gandergear

[snarfbot]

is condition overload really more powerful than maiming strike?

[Tsardova]

13 hours ago, DanteAdams said:

The essence of challenge is when i can use everything game offers me and still be threatened to go backward and have no progress and offer a reward i would not get otherwise. Removing all or most mods to make yourself weak and enemy even more of a bullet sponge than they already are is nothing like getting a real challenge.

The fact that we never had a challenge in no way means whe shouldn't ever have that.

No... that's YOUR essence of challenge. People generally take challenge as  a means to better themselves/ prove themselves in some aspect, and gimping yourself doesn't mean ridding yourself of (the essence of) challenge, it's an option to get a semblance for one. More ironic considering, again, challenge is a myth to begin with in this game. So yeah, it's still an option, it's still a means for you to get better at perfecting the mechanics such as parkour, stealth or the like to get by the in mission variables without resorting on your means of being overpowered. You'll still progress in the more human aspect of the game, minimizing human error as you play in a less comfortable environment since you've hit the peak of your game in terms of gear. Feigning ignorance on that is arrogant at best in that it pre much (in)directly proposes changes to everyone when maybe not everyone wants said change. 

Again, challenge is subjective and is pre much a myth in this game. Nobody said we shouldn't have challenge, but given how many years it has been and how horrible scaling is treated still, you'd likely be sent to the same scenario of longer endurance runs or the like for a semblance of challenge, which often needs some kind of cheese strat for you to get far anyways that it limits what builds you can go for. It's a never ending cycle of shooting yourself in the foot in retrospect I suppose.

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Tsardova

[Chipputer]

4 hours ago, snarfbot said:

is condition overload really more powerful than maiming strike?

Overall and on its own? Yes. The difference is that Maiming Strike is so front-loaded (CO being end-loaded) that you often don't even need to pay attention to the difference in power.

[Eljureo]

Being OP increases your fun on a 2 h survival....

On other hand when playing with my kid, I give him my op build and I run his.

In non endgame content a non op build is almost always more fun.

[AJ5511]

I heard OP so I had to put in Opticor w/ argon, bladed rounds, and a decent riven. and yeah forget about 'balance' its a one-shot, kill everything monster. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 1/2/2018 at 8:06 AM, ACULonSeer said:

Making enemy elemental resistances/weaknesses more relevant, toning down slash damage, and lowering armor scaling limits (at higher and lower levels, balance them out) would be a good start

I want to laugh because DE specifically made enemy resistances less relevant.

As someone stated earlier it is a constant teeter-totter or balance scale always changing.

•When the Game is complete* maybe at that point things can be fully balanced.

(However to drive progression in that the main objective is to acquire and level the new Frames/Guns/Companions; I feel DE is doing it mostly correct in that new weapons/frames usurp previous weapons/frames and then to get the community interested back into previous gear. The older 'gear' gets a revisit to bring it back to the fore-front.)

Grineer Manics used to tackle a player until they died & get full health if they went invisible.(Community thought they were overpowered)

Nullifiers used to always have full size-bubbles, Bubbles could only be shrunk down efficiently with Multi-hit weapons (not easily destroyed by a well placed shot on floating generator), and they used to 360° no scope headshot if you entered their purview.

Prosecutors - use to be an actual high-level threat, in that they granted immunity to allies from damage except for a particular non-combined element. Used to be Parry then finisher attack as the workaround for these 'priority targets'. They were changed to be susceptible to Slash-Bleed procs and Radiation now disables the Aura rather than all units in aura being immune to Radiation confusion status.

Infested Moa's used to deal very lethal Radiation goo. This would 1-shot Warframes on the regular. (Reminds me of players fearing Detron Crewman) DE toned it down.

 

Currently the Sentients are troublesome for players refusing to utilize the Operator. If using the Operator both Shadow Stalker and Sentients are basically pushovers.

•Kuva Guardians are similar to Sentients...painful if refusing to use Operator and trivial of you do utilize Operator

We have shifted from having a loadout with varying Elemental builds to cover the different enemy resistance compositions. To now only needing 1 or 2 specific Elemental builds on 2 of 3 weapons and Operator for just about anything else.

If they reintroduce enemies that require a Parry to make vulnerable to damage, then player base will revert back to AoE finisher prompt Abilities. Unless such an enemy is made immune to such Abilities.

 

DE's proposed and thankfully not implemented Eximus weakpoint to make vulnerable, is the evidence to me that DE want to slow combat as to not make us steam roll over all the enemies they create.

I think the Eidolon Teralyst fight, has a close-balance of letting us feel powerful while not completely steamrolling the enemy DE spent time making. With rewards reflecting the effort put in for taking us away from high+kill count gameplay.

(Priority Targets providing a decent reward for slowing gameplay seems like the proper balance, and gives the impression DE want us to notice the enemy they spent effort on.)

[(PSN)Crixus044]

4 hours ago, Eljureo said:

Being OP increases your fun on a 2 h survival....

On other hand when playing with my kid, I give him my op build and I run his.

In non endgame content a non op build is almost always more fun.

 It's like i said. All about enemy level 

3 hours ago, AJ5511 said:

I heard OP so I had to put in Opticor w/ argon, bladed rounds, and a decent riven. and yeah forget about 'balance' its a one-shot, kill everything monster. 

Play a higher level mission. Find the enemy that matches your opticor power.

Edited January 4, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[-N7-Leonhart]

I agree, it's boring AF these days, nothing compared to like 3 years ago.

 I have tried, REALLY tried, to do stuff like solo runs for hours, but it's boring as hell to wait that long of a time for the enemies to finally become worthy bullet sponges.

[AJ5511]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

 Play a higher level mission. Find the enemy that matches your opticor power.

Yeah, I am seeing some damage fall offs now xd, just gotta keep working the mods I guess. ty for the suggestion 

[Pixues]

On 12/30/2017 at 1:13 AM, ACULonSeer said:

But at what cost does this come? What are the consequences of allowing damage values, armor, and power strength soar so high?

The price is cheese. lots and lots of cheese. 

The numbers, the spam, the no-effort gameplay get you cheese. 

Where in most games cheesing is the exception, in warframe its the rule. 

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by Pixues

[tnccs215]

On 03/01/2018 at 3:49 PM, DanteAdams said:

The essence of challenge is when i can use everything game offers me and still be threatened to go backward and have no progress and offer a reward i would not get otherwise. Removing all or most mods to make yourself weak and enemy even more of a bullet sponge than they already are is nothing like getting a real challenge.

The fact that we never had a challenge in no way means whe shouldn't ever have that.

amen to this.

A god does not feel threatned by a mortal holding a gun at them when they know they cannot die.

[Savaroth07]

On 1/3/2018 at 2:48 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Look, I say this a lot and I'm gonna keep saying this. Enemy Level changes everything. How do I know? I've been there at level cap. I've played this game long enough with mathematical excellence to see the real "balance" struggle this game has gone through. The balance struggle is not weapon vs weapon as people think. It's player power progression vs enemy levels. I remember back in the day when level 100 was an eyebrow raiser. Back in the phoenix intercept excalation days. We were fighting level 150s and people said that it was too hard. back before CC was king and crit or status was the meta. Mogamu even said in his Phoenix intercept video that people should stop fighting the level 20s and start getting into the higher levels. Players were craving challenge because they said that they were OP. Then raids and sorties came out to have DE match the rising power of the tenno once level 20-40 became too easy. This is the warframe I grew from. That's my generation of players. Anyone who remembers the Phoenix Intercept Escalation and has that Rift Sigil, I raise my glass to you.

If you compared an "OP" setup back then to a normal setup nowadays, you'd laugh your pants off on how weak we were. Ever since late 2015, warframe has been on an escalating power creep, to the point now that people are calling level 100s too easy. DE has been constantly increasing player power, but it has been sporatic in increasing the mission levels we fight. This is why we have fluxes of "So and So is OP" and then a couple years later "Can I Has Buff?". What warframe needs now is an expansion of levels, because what people are complaining about is that enemies die too quickly. Easy way to fix this is to pit us players against higher EHp enemies so that they don't die as fast. Rather than get cheesy mechanics to constrain our power, DE has 9899 levels of enemies to eventually be able to match out power through EHp alone. On top of this, tanks have enough EHp to cakewalk through normal missions, but put them up against a level 1000, and only the strong will survive. It's what most games go through, which is progression.

I know what the most common response is "Raising levels won't fix the the issue. Enemy damage is stupid high. Cheese and Rice. Scaling sucks. Enemies are imbeciles." To this, I disagree, but I'll entertain the idea because there's a simple solution. These problems brought up with increasing levels are simply knob tweaks that DE can fix along the way, but we'll never know until we can even get the content. Let's get the content first and fix it from there. You can't fix endless scaling if all you're fighting is the low end of it. It's like trying to repair a car when all you've seen is the interior of it. You're liable to fix the wrong thing, as DE has been doing by demand of the community.

Most people shed a negative light on power creep, but power creep is not bad. It's good, on one condition, if there's a enemy level present to challenge that power. Power creep is the creation of progress. Back in the day, most builds had only elementals and base damage with channeling being a thing. Then we got reworks, Shadow Debt, primed mods, primed weapons, status overload, and finally rivens. We saw this as power creep, but if you consider the journey of the player, what us vets are seeing is the real time process of creating long term gameplay, also known as progress. A player first gets the damage and elemental mods, then gets his shadow debt mods and focus, then gets primed mods and weapons. After this, he will probably get the status overload mods and finally, he'll finish off his build with a possible riven mod. All the while, he's learning, getting better, and getting a power progression, such is the way of a long term relationship....with a game. DE has this idea down solid. There's just one missing component, and that's the enemies present to challenge this power progress.

This is, exactly, what I was saying before the "fix" situation came into play. DE's conveyed basis for said "fix" revolved around people being able to 1-shot a lvl 20 Eidolon's limbs, so let's screw with the frame mechanics instead of increasing the enemy armor, dmg output, durability, etc., etc.

As long as people only see a frame of whichever particular they want to point fingers at, either out of jealousy, or self pity, or whatever rather than addressing the big picture of increasing enemy levels, and stats to compensate for getting stronger mods, stronger weapons, stronger frames, etc., etc., the situation will always remain the same....then, as a result of not asking for the proper rectification for the situation,, too many will be "Buff "name frame" please?"....So, instead of 1 solution there's a solution,, inevitably, there, but no one is looking at the overall scenario half of the time, and would rather take things personally, pouting, having a fit, throwing a tantrum,, pushing out their bottom lips, pounding their fists,, and on a proverbial "witch hunt". It would serve a lot oof people well to sit back,, think a little bigger than just themselves, their most used squad(s), a few of their buddies, or a particular clan rather than trying to envision the bigger picture, the progression factors, new aspects introduced over time, scaling, modding improvements, new frames, new weapons, new enemies, new content, etc. You cannot expect the entire game to revolve around you as a player, a squad, or a specific clan, but rather, how the entire community will be effected, the potential intentions for progression rates, enemy levels, new frames, dmg increases, different ability introductions, mechanics, and uses.....the list goes on, and on, but the base of the matter is that whining, and complaining about OP is an individuals problem...if things are too easy to kill, scale down your mods, or your weapons, or their mods if it's a major issue, and you want more challenge that doesn't seem to be there for you, currently. It would be foolish to complain about OP weapons, frames, etc., etc. when you have no true idea of what future content holds, and what you're going to need to make it through without having to abort, or lay dead with everyone around you still running around,, or everyone dying so you have to rerun the mission countless times to, if you're lucky, complete the missions that may come along, and surprise you.

[PatternistSlave]

If you want Warframe to be more of a shooter than a horde looter you can simply nerf yourself and it will be that.  The opposite is not true.  If those of you that want Warframe to be Destiny got your way those of us that enjoy horde looters would be out of luck.  So kindly make the game what you wish it was and leave us to enjoy the game it is.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:30 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

One caveat: that kind of Operator navigation is unavailable to players using Controller, as we Experience horrendous input and response lag for transference and dashing. DE... doesn't seem aware.

You need to get a better controller or something.  I don't have any input lag that you keep referring to.  Then again, I don't use Steam Client.  My Xbox One and Elite controllers work perfectly fine without any input lag.