Is Equinox Maim kind of pointless?

[NovusKnight]

I've been playing Equinox a little lately - mostly giggling at Defense fissures where I sit in the objective and press 4 every 30 seconds, still outputting over 40% of the team's damage. with max range, some tiles like the grineer defense mission (the one with a small elevator with the objective on the center) are basicaly 80% covered. so.... fun times.

but then... I started thinking. it's... Maim is ludicrously good. so good. so insane. ever-scalling, uncapped damage nukes with near instant cast-time on use (ignoring the build-up, but hey, balance) makes it an excelent ability for things like Survival, or Defense, or even Rescue - where you can basicaly insta-nuke _everything_ in the cells and their vicinity.

 

... but...

 

Nova exists.

properly modded, Nova's Antimatter Drop can, in exactly the same manner as Maim, instantly erase a massive amount of enemies from a huge, huge, disgustingly large radius. it also doesn't prevent energy regeneration via Zenurik. more importantly, it is SPAMMABLE like no tomorrow! Maim is incredible, but you -can't- spam it, because it takes a good amount of enemies killed to actualy _do_ anything. on average, I find the Maim's effective cooldown to be between 20 (at best) seconds, all the way to some 40 (most cases) seconds, which in warframe terms is  a long, long, long time. sure, it does count that we're talking about _ERASING BASICALY THE ENTIRE MAP OF ENEMIES_ in one button press. but.......

Antimatter drop (AMD) can be detonated, at full charge, in _one second._ sometimes, even less. press 2, shoot with something like a Tigris Prime or Opticor or Euphona, touch _anything_ - B O O M , everything around you ceased to be.

and that's not all. you can spam this, you can even launch a few and stack them up for consecutive blasts and follow-up detonations; you can launch it from ranges Maim can't touch unless coming closer, has basicaly no real build-up phase, hell, even has an augment that prevents you from getting shot while using it. sure - the area of effect is probably less than 25% of Dayquinox's Maim, but... it's like comparing an Opticor to a Ferrox. is the Opticor quite more damaging in general, AoE, etc? yes - but the Ferrox still oneshots almost everything, fires much much much faster, can generate higher DPS, can get more kills faster, etc. in this case, we're talking about mass-AoE one-shot potential, and in here, what really makes this good or bad are two things: how LARGE the radius is (i.e. how many enemies you _CAN_ one-shot erase from this world in one go) and how OFTEN you can do it. Maim has a good range advantage - no contest - but MP can go off soo sooooo soooooooooo many times more often than Maim. I could easily use over ten AMD nukes before Maim even charges up decently.

but _HEY_ Dayquinox can strongly increase damage output on marked enemies. right? ... Nova's Molecular Prime also does that. arguably better, because it can effortlessly cover the whole map, as opposed to a small cluster of enemies.

NightQuinox adds good defense form enemies, from hard CC (sleep) to slow (with augment) to heals. but.... Nova also does that. while not directly reducing enemy damage output, she drasticaly reduces enemy firerate, reaction time, well, everything. it gives people a much wider margin of error between getting destroyed by a burst of bullets, or losing 200 shields and getting to cover. melee enemies are non-existant. the one thing she doesn't do, is open up for melee finishers. which is... good. it's actualy good, and useful, but if we're talking about effectiveness, it's better to instantly destroy many enemies at once than to destroy one at a time, so... her healing Mend, over Nova's lack of healing abilities, would be the only other plus she haves... except it is arguably the worst, clunkiest healing ability in the game, and hardly no one relies on it. even playing solo on high difficulties, I find it a lot more useful to go with Dayquinox and nuke things, as opposed to... healing myself a bit every 20 seconds, because lacking the high damage output I'm getting shredded.

Nova has mobility, as well, which Equinox doesn't have.

 

I don't know. is it just me? am I overlooking something critically important here?

Edited February 3, 2018 by NovusKnight

[Shaw1996]

The thing about AD is you have to shoot it with a weapon like the Corinth, Opticor, or Tigris Prime  to reach similar Nuke level as a Maim Equinox. Plus, your teammates can store up maim’s damage so you can do your thing and have tons of damage stored up. With 280% range, you can just press 4 and every enemy you marked in the entire room would get one shotted even with 40% strength. Maim Equinox is probably one of the best frame to use when you are playing with a WoF Ember or a speedva since you can kill the enemies before they get a chance to kill by just storing damage and pressing 4.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Shaw1996

[Phatose]

Scaling on Maim is based on enemy HP and shields, not weapon damage.  So it doesn't ignore crits the way AD does, but can get big gains from heavily shielded enemies killed by toxin, and it can can be stored so you're not time limited to the time between cast and explosion.  It also means that once charged, it's time to detonate is instant.  Enemies tend to come in waves, so a fair amount of time Maim will be charged from the last group and nuke the next right out of the door.  Maim also begins with a stun effect, making it easier to charge.  Maim's detonation range is effected by power range, while AD's explosion range is not.

[phoenix1992]

The point of Maim is to cause "nerf equinox" topics in the near feature.

Especially since it allows for EV interactions.

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

Equinox maim used to be actually stronger very respectable but then the duration mods being implemented into toggle  abilities made transient fortitude and fleeting expertise unviable

[tnccs215]

18 hours ago, (PS4)AtomicEyekon said:

Equinox maim used to be actually stronger very respectable but then the duration mods being implemented into toggle  abilities made transient fortitude and fleeting expertise unviable

That's plain wrong. 

21 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

The point of Maim is to cause "nerf equinox" topics in the near feature.

Especially since it allows for EV interactions.

That would require the "ability effectiveness counterbalancing" mentality, in which apparently its OK for lackluster abilities to be "carried" by arguably overperforming ones, to dissappear; plus the rest of her abilities to actually get the QoL changes they need to make her more engaging.

[Colyeses]

It's not very strong, but then, you shouldn't expect any damage oriented warframe ability to be strong, and if it is, you should expect it to get nerfed. Maim stops functioning properly after about level 40, I think. After that, you can store up and hope to release, but Day Equinox is not durable enough to survive that long, IMO. 

[Guest]

As someone who plays Nova quite a bit, Antimatter Drop has a large radius, yes, but not as large as maim. It is erasing the whole wave on Hydron only because Hydron is small and your Speedva probably clumped the enemies at the objective for you to delete them.

In any larger tilesets, Antimatter Drop just isn't as large an explosion as Maim is. 

And you all forgetting one thing. Antimatter Drop is a nightmare to charge and steer with heavy lag. You cannot charge Antimatter Drop when Limbo Stasis/Mag Magnetize is in the way. Antimatter Drop flies slow and if it detonates after some Chroma unloaded their Ignis Wraith you wasted ammo, energy and time.

Meanwhile, maim has no such problems...

[Ragnarok160]

4 hours ago, Colyeses said:

It's not very strong, but then, you shouldn't expect any damage oriented warframe ability to be strong, and if it is, you should expect it to get nerfed. Maim stops functioning properly after about level 40, I think. After that, you can store up and hope to release, but Day Equinox is not durable enough to survive that long, IMO. 

i dont think equinox users will ever let anyone say something bad about them, yea storing damage scales but the CC is pretty weak and her lack of def ability makes her pap in everything above lvl 40

[tnccs215]

3 minutes ago, Ragnarok160 said:

i dont think equinox users will ever let anyone say something bad about them, yea storing damage scales but the CC is pretty weak and her lack of def ability makes her pap in everything above lvl 40

Have you checked my posts on her? 

There are two types of Equinox players: those who will defend her status quo to the death, and those who trash her more than anyone ever could. 

[Ragnarok160]

1 hour ago, tnccs215 said:

Have you checked my posts on her? 

There are two types of Equinox players: those who will defend her status quo to the death, and those who trash her more than anyone ever could. 

which one am i?

[Leuca]

15 hours ago, Ragnarok160 said:

i dont think equinox users will ever let anyone say something bad about them, yea storing damage scales but the CC is pretty weak and her lack of def ability makes her pap in everything above lvl 40

I'm not even a frequent Maim user and I can tell you you're wrong. Maim is one of the best scaling abilities in the game. The few times I've used it in extended missions I've consistently gone to levels in excess of 125+

It is true that in solo play vs grineer their armor is simply too much and its damage falls off, but that is true for most frames. She is an amazing team-frame.

Her redundancy with other frames would be solved if her kit was revisited and she was allowed to swap between forms without losing bonuses, along with other QoL changes.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

I'm not sure why you would compare Maim to AD. AD can't even use range mods. Nova would nuke everything if it could, but it's not like that. She makes a very powerful bomb with a fairly small explosion radius. It's just not like what Equinox can do with Maim. Equinox destroys in the vast majority of defense maps. At higher levels(30-40) you can still spam maim to release stored damage to kill the tougher enemies or just kill them with a weapon to get more damage stored up. Equinox is my go to fissure frame or when I'm helping a friend level up a weapon/frame fast. Maim just kills 99% of the enemies on the map. I've never seen Nova do that. 

[Ragnarok160]

3 hours ago, Leuca said:

I'm not even a frequent Maim user and I can tell you you're wrong. Maim is one of the best scaling abilities in the game. The few times I've used it in extended missions I've consistently gone to levels in excess of 125+

It is true that in solo play vs grineer their armor is simply too much and its damage falls off, but that is true for most frames. She is an amazing team-frame.

Her redundancy with other frames would be solved if her kit was revisited and she was allowed to swap between forms without losing bonuses, along with other QoL changes.

Iys no secret that only a quarter of her kit is usefull, they need to fix the second ability, for thr night form maybe give people def buffs for storing energy

[tnccs215]

19 hours ago, Ragnarok160 said:

which one am i?

You tell me. I guess the second, but frankly I do think you are wrong on some points. Her issues go way beyond effectiveness. They are problematic, yes, but much more centered around schizophrenic implementation of her central gimmick (form changing) and abilities that are simply... Bland, or just bad without augments. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by tnccs215

[xDjinn_]

On 2/4/2018 at 10:13 AM, tnccs215 said:

Have you checked my posts on her? 

There are two types of Equinox players: those who will defend her status quo to the death, and those who trash her more than anyone ever could. 

Thats pretty accurate lol I still defend it. But with all the toxic press 4 to win ember players using equinox maim that way. Well its only a matter of time, before the frame gets the hammer.

[Redfeather75]

I like Equinox but only really tried a long range maim for the first time last night. It was in akkad and did pretty good, but I stopped using it because the group didn't need it and running all over for pick-ups was stinky. I don't think I'd try it in a sortie as I'd probably be downed before finishing the cast.

[Shaw1996]

3 hours ago, Redfeather75 said:

I like Equinox but only really tried a long range maim for the first time last night. It was in akkad and did pretty good, but I stopped using it because the group didn't need it and running all over for pick-ups was stinky. I don't think I'd try it in a sortie as I'd probably be downed before finishing the cast.

I've done it before during the Jackal's Sortie. I had the most kills but the Enemies (Not the boss) was downing me like crazy. Melee Maim Equinox is not a good idea for Sorties since Equinox is really fragile.

[AetherMcLoud]

Antimatterdrop has a fixed 15 meter explosion range.

With some range Maim has like 40 meter range if not more.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

With two equinoxes (4 forma on the night build and 6 forma on the day build) and a fair amount of playtime, either day or night form can go well past level 40 enemies - but I agree, without a squad, I don't bother with maim past level 40 or so enemies -  certainly not a large radius version.  The only exception is if I'm running a low range build with a small radius for for the stun similar to melee banshee silence tactic.

Some fun augments to play with too and can really add variety to the way one uses equinox

I do prefer a night equinox for when the enemies go over level 100 or so.

I'm not sure why the OP is comparing AD to Maim - they are so different.

Equinox is hugely fun.

 

[kyori]

If you want to know if those frames are good, play sortie 3 defense mission (if there is one) solo and only then you can tell. 

Mass killing enemies in starchart level like hydron doesn’t prove anything. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

If you want to know if those frames are good, play sortie 3 defense mission (if there is one) solo and only then you can tell. 

Mass killing enemies in starchart level like hydron doesn’t prove anything. 

One mission type doesn't prove much either tbh.

I'll have an easier time w/Nova on most sortie defense missions than I would with say Ivara.  But an easier time with Ivara than Nova on a solo survival.    I'm quite sure I can't go 5 hours solo with Nova on Mot.  In fact solo I'd probably go further with Equinox than Nova.

Reminds me of the posts where people claim that Ember needs to be able to go to high level enemies... I disagree - we have many tools in our toolbox, and Warframe is about choosing either the best one for your game play for the task at hand OR choosing the one you have the most fun using.  

 

 

[atejas]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Tucker D Dawg said:

I'll have an easier time w/Nova on most sortie defense missions than I would with say Ivara.

Ivara trivialises sortie defense since you can just cloak arrow the operative and stay in prowl. Bit tedious though.

 

Anyway maim is quite useful for fissure defense, Hydron etc., but the survivability bonuses from pacify w/augment and mend are imo indispensable for anything above lvl 40. If it were possible to convert stored mend health into maim damage (and vice versa) that would be amazing since you could tank AND nuke, but it might honestly be kind of OP

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

16 minutes ago, atejas said:

Ivara trivialises sortie defense since you can just cloak arrow the operative and stay in prowl. Bit tedious though.

 

Trivialize and tedious don't play well next to each other in my book. That said, I know HOW to use Ivara but I'd rather get it over quickly with Nova.   My point was selecting "sortie 3 defense" as the criteria for ranking if one frame (insert YOUR choice A here) is better than another (insert YOUR choice B here) is not a valid means to rank warframes overall. I was specifically addressing this:

Quote

if you want to know if those frames are good, play sortie 3 defense mission (if there is one) solo and only then you can tell. 

Which is why I had quoted it.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-02-14 at 7:25 AM, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

One mission type doesn't prove much either tbh.

I'll have an easier time w/Nova on most sortie defense missions than I would with say Ivara.  But an easier time with Ivara than Nova on a solo survival.    I'm quite sure I can't go 5 hours solo with Nova on Mot.  In fact solo I'd probably go further with Equinox than Nova.

Reminds me of the posts where people claim that Ember needs to be able to go to high level enemies... I disagree - we have many tools in our toolbox, and Warframe is about choosing either the best one for your game play for the task at hand OR choosing the one you have the most fun using.  

 

 

More people need to really read and REread this comment.   Everyone wants every frame and every weapon to be the best at everything, and that's simply not a good thing, nor is it the point to Warframe.

Stop arguing about how your fire isn't as good against Corpus and start using your damn Volt!  Or instead of worrying about how your 4 can't insta-wipe things, start shooting your rifle or swinging your great sword!  We don't need to rely on just one thing to win, so why do we keep critiquing everything in Warframe as if the individual tools are the only factors in the equation?