Nerfs don't fix poor development

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that. If Chroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging. If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

[DSkycroft]

Ranting won't make them change anything.

[taiiat]

ok, Enemies are now immune to Abilities. according to you, that's now all problems fixed. job well done!

expecting the game to never change so your personal guide information is always relevant is pretty selfish and naive.

Edited February 5, 2018 by taiiat

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

OK, then according to you instead of nerfing 3 frames they should have buffed all the enemies and all the other frames correct? 

[duhadventure]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that. If Chroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging. If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

The problem with ember was you could stand still and get kills, and even if they made enemies to deal specifically with her the people she is playing with using different frames would kill them. Unless you want scarmbus and combas....

Chroma killing the Eidelons was unintended due to the math they did at his creation, and Gara is getting a buff to her walls based on enemy hp that it hits.

[Sajochi]

I'd like to point out that this is dev bashing. It's not even being subtle. This doesn't help anything. In fact, it hurts progress. You want to see meaningful change, then make a constructive post that might help. 

[bad4youLT]

beeing a demigod no better

[Deathbricked]

How would you "Make eidolons more challenging"? The problem with chroma in this instance is the fact that he followed his own rules when he buffs weapon damage, while every other frame in the game followed the correct way of applying it. This "nerf" is actually a fix for a massive bug.

 

As for ember and "killing enemies to fast" the issue is for new players and honestly.. anyone that actually wanted to have fun. You do a lith or meso relic or any lower to mid tier missions and ember just kills everything. Simple. There is actually nothing to do when ember is in the game. It becomes pick up loot you don't really deserve simulator. It doesn't matter if it's against grineer, corpus or infested. Ember just kills everything. Would you like for DE to make a "Nullifier" (Something i hate for other reasons then it stops abilities) class unit just for lower tier missions? DE is trying to keep ember as something that possesses AOE and damage. The range of said AOE is being curbed in so it's not killing the entire damned game while the damage is going up for the poor enemies that spawn near ember.

[Jem991]

hah

[Buddhakingpen]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

Dear DE,

I have been playing warframe since my friend showed it to me in alpha on PC. I've loved every step of the way and until recently, agreed with 99% of your decisions on the game.

Recently, however, you've made several changes to several frames that are damning to the design, play style, enjoyment, and time investment of your players because they're " killing things too fast".

That's a terrible logic. If Ember is killing mass numbers with"world on fire" develope enemies to deal with that. If Chroma is murdering your eidolons too fast, then perhaps you should have made them more challenging. If gara was too good at defending, maybe you should have actually play tested it prior to release.

Your pattern of punishing players for your shortcommings is ridiculous. How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

You're doing it backward DE, and you're frustrating your players while you do it.

Iono, the only time i've ever been frustrated with their decisions is when they made mags pull ragdoll instead of cluster enemies in a ball in front of you. Outside of that, i could at least understand what DE has done every step of the way. Their worst offense is that they're too slow to react. At first their logic is, "oh we thought it would be fun for the player" but that "fun" becomes abuse to their game balances, and once everyone does it, it becomes a problem that they should have seen coming. 

As far as them developing enemies to deal with aoe nuke abilities. That would cause more harm than good. Think about how mad ppl are getting about ember, when she's literally the exact same frame that just has to recast her 4 every 15 seconds. Now , imagine they put in enemies that outright prevented the damage from even happening (lets ignore the fact that ancients exist for a second). Come on dude. Remember nullifiers and scrambus units were made to help nerf player power usage and make us think a bit... and once again, a lot of the community complained.

The real problem is the community. Not DE. Half of us want a well balanced game where some frames have weaknesses in some areas, to allow for a better group dynamic. Other people just want to achieve their ultimate power fantasy once they have all the mods they thought of for their build. They dont care about game balance. "I worked toward this feeling i want, so i deserve it" is the general sentiment of those kinds of players. Its like a 50/50 split DE cant possibly appease both sides. So they pick a bit from each to work on, and piss off a bit of each side. 

And chroma is literally the only character that can do what chroma does. No one can reach that level of damage except for him. Balancing an entire gameplay loop around 1/30 something frames? THATS bad design. Honestly, they should have just nerfed chroma with the plains patch and explained why.  But thats in hindsight. Of course we all have the answers after something happens. Its how we deal with it thats important. And DE is dealing with it the proper way imo. They are giving chroma some balances, letting him share that power instead of outright removing it, and they're giving us stronger teralysts.  

Its a game made piecemeal. They try to give us something fun, We break it, they try to balance it out because most games should be that. 

If youre a clan leader trying to inform new players, tell them "if its the best thing in the game at doing one thing, dont get attached to it, just learn the game mechanics"

I have literally had 1 thing i regularly used be nerfed in this game, and that was mags pull, as previously stated, outside of that i have the wherewithal to understand that if it seems broken, it is, and will eventually get nerfed. Play with balanced things and this doesnt become an issue. 

[Genitive]

And poorly written threads don't help the devs improve the game.

Things don't get nerfed because they kill things to fast, as you claim, but because some of them promote passive gameplay. Which should not be the case.

Threads like these only prove that some skills are allowed to linger in an unfinished state for too long,

[InDueTime-EN-]

25 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

YOU can't plan your content

 A dev team of under 200 cannot possibly find all the issues that may arise from their release if they want to continue with the consistency of their release. If you want them to play test everything before release to make sure there is little to no issue, then we would get 1 warframe per year. The only thing I think they need to improve is to make swift changes to the warframes in question. 

I agree with the changes that they are going to make, but as of right now, the players have gotten used to it too much that there is a lot of backlash. I can excuse the lack of play testing with Gara more than the rest because they were focusing more on the PoE launch than anything else. At least with her, the changes were quick. It was a step towards the right direction, but at the time, it was too big of  a nerf. The planned changes will make her way better, and keep the balance.

 

As for the nerfs to older warframes. I HATED soundquake Banshee so much that I stopped playing banshee when it was released. I used to play her a lot because of the massive damage boost she gave but after that augment was released, everyone was expecting me to use that. No thank you, I'm not a lazy player. This change will give her a more active play style and I approve. 
I also love Chroma because of his massive damage output, but this change would balance him with the rest of the warframes. I mean, Mirage's Eclipse was supposed to be a bigger damage buff than his, but they weren't even close. 

As for Ember, I don't think there is enough change in the plans to stop them from running through the levels, and it is a massive nerf to Firequake ember. I would prefer if they revert it to the very old version of Ember, that deals damage per second instead of a burst of damage. This will at least give other players opportunities to kill enemies.

And where is my trinity nerf?

[DarthBane1]

I've been playing as long as you have and I'm sorry, I feel they have moved in a positive direction. You shouldn't get upset about them changing things either. Hundreds of thousands of games that have ever been released (let alone in beta) have been changed constantly up until they were no more. It's part of the program's life. Actually about 90% of development is maintenance. So they see there is a problem with overpowered frames (EXE: Ember, chroma, banshee, gara, etc.) and they fix it. So what? that just means you can't exploit them being over powered. Learn to adapt and play video games. You should NEVER bash/rant a development team because they are not giving you what you want. I am seeing about 75% of people are OK with these changes. That's a good number. If you don't like it, play another game. 

[Xico.xide]

could we atleast wait for the changes to release and do some testing ourselves before you start crying about frames being tweaked and "changed every week"

[Pixues]

55 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

How am I, as a clan leader, supposed to guide new players in building up frames when you seem to change the entire playstyle of a frame every week? How am I going to convince people not to quit the game when the frame they proudly built now must be completely redone because YOU can't plan your content around the frames that existed BEFORE that content.

Lol. No other game ever has buffed or nerfed content after release. Because that would be crazy. What are warframe devs doing?! 

On a serious note.

My only complaint is that the Warframe devs are not pushing out these balance passes faster, and more frequent. 

[shoopypit]

These abilities encourage cheesing. There for they tweak the abilities, to no longer be cheesable. I don't see how it's a bad thing

[Nez-Kal]

Really the most amazing thing is that this Topic hasn't been shutdown yet.....but, actually, unlike many posts similar to it, this might be due to the fact that the OP isn't responding to every single comment and calling everyone morons who don't know better than them. That might be helping its Forum life expectancy.

[MJ12]

The main mistake, tbh, is that DE decided to introduce Nullifiers and Combas/Scrambus instead of actually going and doing a power balance pass way back then when Vivergate was a thing.

The existence of Nullfiiers as a kneejerk response to AoE AFK farming (which became a thing because Syndicate standing gain was ludicrously low) has distorted a lot of the game around them for two of the four factions.

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

While some of these replies are well thought out and some helpful, most are missing the eventual problem this path creates.

 

Nerfing frames creates a vacuum. The frame to replace ember has already been figured out. The same issue will arise again. Then DE will nerf it. Rinse, wash, repeat. 

Nerfing is the act of a dev who does not have control of their game, and lacks the proper planning for a game to continue with any form of longevity.

The eidolons could easily cycle through several immunities at random, forcing teams to vary their damage types. This would not only increase the need for teamwork and communication, hightening the encounter overall, but also prevents 1 frame from being and end all be all.

That's an easy way to avoid the Chroma debacle AND make this rather bland fight more fun. Win/win.

Ember: change the ability range slightly and require movement to fuel damage output. Fire needs air to burn, so moving and "fanning the flames" keeps her going. Sit still and damage drops off.

Nerfing world on fire will just make people abandon her 4th and build based on third. It fixes nothing.

Gara: nothing was wrong aside from too much possible range and the ability to stack her splintering storm damage( which they left alone). Making her a frost clone makes the frame boring and will force them to revisit it later.

Pretty sure that covers the requests.

No i won't reply to anyone as the post is to DE, not to any of you.

[Buddhakingpen]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Jimmy Voorhees said:

While some of these replies are well thought out and some helpful, most are missing the eventual problem this path creates.

 

Nerfing frames creates a vacuum. The frame to replace ember has already been figured out. The same issue will arise again. Then DE will nerf it. Rinse, wash, repeat. 

Nerfing is the act of a dev who does not have control of their game, and lacks the proper planning for a game to continue with any form of longevity.

The eidolons could easily cycle through several immunities at random, forcing teams to vary their damage types. This would not only increase the need for teamwork and communication, hightening the encounter overall, but also prevents 1 frame from being and end all be all.

That's an easy way to avoid the Chroma debacle AND make this rather bland fight more fun. Win/win.

Ember: change the ability range slightly and require movement to fuel damage output. Fire needs air to burn, so moving and "fanning the flames" keeps her going. Sit still and damage drops off.

Nerfing world on fire will just make people abandon her 4th and build based on third. It fixes nothing.

Gara: nothing was wrong aside from too much possible range and the ability to stack her splintering storm damage( which they left alone). Making her a frost clone makes the frame boring and will force them to revisit it later.

Pretty sure that covers the requests.

No i won't reply to anyone as the post is to DE, not to any of you.

An easy way to "fix" the teralyst fight is to give it invincibility cycles? Ok, the community hasnt complained about that like ever... No not ever.  On top of that, making them random? lol Jesus He's never played a public match. Before ppl figured the fight out, ppl were running aorund like chickens with their heads cut off trying to figure out how to deal with the thing. He wants to add the element of not only randomness... but invincibility... no. 

Then he says to make world on fire build damage based on ember moving, when DE pretty much explicitly stated they want to knock down her aoe clear on missions you just run through... ok, i guess we're just ignoring the whole reason they're "nerfing" her. 

It feels like he neither payed attention to what DE said in the workshop, payed attention to what the community at large said they DONT want with their bosses (invulnerability states), or hell, even played in a public match (requesting a teralyst cycle through random vulnerabilities, which could only be taken down in a reasonable amount of time with an organized team  that could cover all of those vulnerabilities. But in a group of randoms? ppl probably arent covering the rainbow of damage types. That would artificially extend the fight)

I know he said he wasnt responding.. but man.. wow

[Lord_Yawgmoth]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb shoopypit:

These abilities encourage cheesing. There for they tweak the abilities, to no longer be cheesable. I don't see how it's a bad thing

u know how much they d have to tweak if they rly did it for the cheesing? plz, u notice urslef that this statement is laughable

[Hypernaut1]

9 hours ago, MJ12 said:

The main mistake, tbh, is that DE decided to introduce Nullifiers and Combas/Scrambus instead of actually going and doing a power balance pass way back then when Vivergate was a thing.

The existence of Nullfiiers as a kneejerk response to AoE AFK farming (which became a thing because Syndicate standing gain was ludicrously low) has distorted a lot of the game around them for two of the four factions.

I like nullifiers. They change up the playing field. For me, annoying enemies that I love to kill are very satisfying. I get a little endorphin rush from popping a bubble and killing the crewman inside or one-shotting the little drone, that I don't really get from basic fodder. They are one the best designed enemies in this game. They require positioning, damage, persistence and tactics to defeat. They aren't too difficult. 

We don't need more enemies that nullify abilities, but we need more enemies designed like nullifiers. Enemies that scale without needing tons of how, require a bit of coming and have multiple ways to best them.

[ArchdevilRotu]

Ember needed a change, i'll wait and see what it plays like before I complain. I think they should have massively reduced her range, that's the real problem, killing things from 6 rooms away. If her range was closer to what a Nullifier is, give  or take mods, I think she'd be fine, she's incredibly fragile and forcing her that close would alleviate a lot of the problem of the AFK DPS. They don't care about being annoying to other players, if they did they would delete Nova and Limbo completely. 

 

I find myself not caring either way, Ember is one of my favorite frames but I never use her anymore, her ceiling is so low she just collects dust. 

[(XBOX)Ivar Azrael]

8 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

An easy way to "fix" the teralyst fight is to give it invincibility cycles? Ok, the community hasnt complained about that like ever... No not ever.  On top of that, making them random? lol Jesus He's never played a public match. Before ppl figured the fight out, ppl were running aorund like chickens with their heads cut off trying to figure out how to deal with the thing. He wants to add the element of not only randomness... but invincibility... no. 

Then he says to make world on fire build damage based on ember moving, when DE pretty much explicitly stated they want to knock down her aoe clear on missions you just run through... ok, i guess we're just ignoring the whole reason they're "nerfing" her. 

It feels like he neither payed attention to what DE said in the workshop, payed attention to what the community at large said they DONT want with their bosses (invulnerability states), or hell, even played in a public match (requesting a teralyst cycle through random vulnerabilities, which could only be taken down in a reasonable amount of time with an organized team  that could cover all of those vulnerabilities. But in a group of randoms? ppl probably arent covering the rainbow of damage types. That would artificially extend the fight)

I know he said he wasnt responding.. but man.. wow

Immunities are not invincibilities but rather waeknesses. In mode X slash damage is best, mode y impact, mode z toxin. Nothing like what you're talking about. Hope that clears it up.

Unless they do away with all AOE abilities their method of nerfing ember is a moot point.

Forcing people to communicate? How awful. Because everything in warframe should be able to be completed by random disorganized teams of new players.

At some point they need to come out with activities just for organized teams and higher level players as both ate getting bored with the game. The eidolons seem to be that, so i was thinking on that mindset.

[Fallen_Echo]

23 hours ago, Sajochi said:

I'd like to point out that this is dev bashing. It's not even being subtle. This doesn't help anything. In fact, it hurts progress. You want to see meaningful change, then make a constructive post that might help. 

Unless named and targeted against certain developers it is not devbashing. Its feedback related to how the development works here.