Zephyr's "rework" is a disaster. She gained nothing and has lost more than was promised. Please hear a Zephyr main out.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

4 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Your suggestion effectively keeps her as is. My suggestion allows her to be played as is or in a slightly different manner, but the main thing of importance is now one would have a choice in the matter.

Do I really have to explain how aiming preemptively during the dash is just straight up better than waiting for the dash to be over, before you can start turning? It's basically the same why quick ground launch is much better when you don't have to look up to do it, because you can actually do it while shooting enemies, or at least while taking an aim on them for a well placed shot. This is an overexaggerated example, but imagine if your camera was locked at where you jumping at for the Bullet Jump, until you reach the apex of it. It would be SO much clumsier and just uncomfortable.

Now this is a slight downgrade on PC (or I should probably say for kb/m users, since some PC players still play with controllers), but for consoles and controller users in general it's even worse. Not only the steering itself wouldn't be as precise at such high speeds, but your camera would also be locked if you dash upwards to get the height to shoot at enemies, and by the time you could already shoot enemies before you would only start turning around 180 degrees, locating your targets etc, which is a bit slower on controller in general, and while I can easily turn around and locate my targets during dash, it would take me a bit longer doing it without that ability.

So no you can't really play "as is", at least not as effectively.

[Azzaruth]

6 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This is old gameplay of mine.

Good luck with your Zephyr issues. I've dropped the frame and will no longer leave feedback on her. Thanks DE. 

I may have to agree, using her tailwind with the current physics feels like iceskating with rocket powered skates.

[ObviousLee]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

1.Do I really have to explain how aiming preemptively during the dash is just straight up better than waiting for the dash to be over, before you can start turning? It's basically the same why quick ground launch is much better when you don't have to look up to do it,

2. because you can actually do it while shooting enemies, or at least while taking an aim on them for a well placed shot.

 

3. This is an overexaggerated example, but imagine if your camera was locked at where you jumping at for the Bullet Jump, until you reach the apex of it. It would be SO much clumsier and just uncomfortable.

4. Now this is a slight downgrade on PC (or I should probably say for kb/m users, since some PC players still play with controllers), but for consoles and controller users in general it's even worse. Not only the steering itself wouldn't be as precise at such high speeds, but your camera would also be locked if you dash upwards to get the height to shoot at enemies, and by the time you could already shoot enemies before you would only start turning around 180 degrees, locating your targets etc, which is a bit slower on controller in general, and while I can easily turn around and locate my targets during dash, it would take me a bit longer doing it without that ability.

So no you can't really play "as is", at least not as effectively.

1. Do you understand that you just repeated yourself? pre-emptive aiming, and waiting till your action is over to change direction, is the same end result.

2. you cannot shoot enemies or use melee attacks during tailwind so i'm sorry what was your point again?

3. Except for one issue, you have the advantage of choice in the matter. You actually CAN leave your camera angle in the position it was when you decided to cast your bullet jump, but you have the option to change that.

4. Wanna know how to fix that? Hover. How do we remedy that issue of not being able to use weapons while utilizing a flight mode? Hover.

At this point I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I could very well be wrong and I'm willing to admit to that possibility, but the thing is every point I establish that has a benefit and what it can bring to the table for all players your response feels like "don't like it so no don't want it" without a valid resoning to back it up. You want intense limitation, I want diversification. My proposition allows for you to play her for the most part as she is now, as well the ability to play in a completely different way. Options are presented, whereas with the current kit (that luckily you're not being forced to deal with) is utterly lacking.

My suggestions finally get Titania's boot off of Zephyr's neck, and put the on an equal playing field both mechanically and thematically.

My suggestion FINALLY puts zephyr in a place to be able to appease more than just a single demographic of players, not even counting her original fan base.

Your stance is "go back to the tired old kit we've already had for years". We've had that kit for a long time, and although this kit desperately needs a few lose ends tied together to finally bring it home, it's at least in a step in the direction of what they need to do to answer her problems. Problems which your suggestions do not address or remedy.

[ObviousLee]

16 hours ago, zackharius said:

I like this version of tailwind. Just the part of using spacebar to engage hover is kind of strange imo. Why not make right mouse button hover instead of aim glide or make aim glide much slower (hovery) and reset bullet jump?

Do you or other Zephyr veterans feel like this rework was done only thinking of playing on the plains? Reading these comments I kind of get the feeling that is the case at least somewhat.

Right mouse button could work really well actually as it would make controller mapping easier. And the feelings that I get are that people who've never used zephyr or just used her in passing are seeing this update as a godsend by virtue of it being an update to a kit instead of it being something that actually fixes her issues. It's like being extremely dehydrated to the point of almost death and someone hands you a cup of dirty water. You're not going to care that it's not clear, you just care that it's water. 

[ObviousLee]

12 hours ago, Buddhakingpen said:

Oh the drama! "four years of neglect"?  Really? have you been here for four years? Because i have. Turbulence has been changed at LEAST 3 times alone lol. 

Zephyr only got in a bad spot once parkour 2.0 shipped. Even then, she was still perfectly fine. And now, she's better. Maybe not the god tier like  zephyr mains wanted, but shes perfectly usable, will always have the high ground WITH bullet reflection, not to mention how strong aviator is for those rare bullets that get through the turbulence. 

Granted, i havent found the use of tornados like i had envisioned, but i also only played her for an hour so far because atlas and mag are so damn fun. 

It's not drama to be upset about a lackluster rework. She's only received minute changes in that her ultimate once picked up bosses and stalker, that was patched. Turbulence had issues of not stopping certain munitions, that was patched. Air melee shut off her passive, that was patched. 

Her kit is not "better" as her previous issues still have gone on without being fixed. If anything she's a car with a blown head gasket, and a new paint job. This is a problem. Nobody wanted her "god tier", we wanted her to be an equally viable and desirable choice across all warframe choices. 

And most importantly, she's still a sub-par Titania. 

So, bad rework is bad, previous mechanical failures are still an issue, and she's still overshadowed by another frame that American history X bite the curb stomps all over her kit. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by ObviousLee

[Eunjul]

I don't think it was a disaster, however, I do believe she needs additional changes. I think her charged tailwind can really define her gameplay and should be longer. Turbulence cast times need to be reverted or be able to be refreshed. Allow us to cancel tailwind so power strength builds don't become clunky indoors. Also, make tornadoes faster/ a single tornado and allow our damage to the tornadoes crit/proc status. All in all, they did a pretty decent job improving her, she just need some more work is all.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Netorawr

[Ernestasx]

Well, i do believe there are simple ways to solve the problems, at least some of them.

Tail Wind. Make it so it doesn't lock you in animations, just like the operator dash. This alone would fix a lot of the clunkiness and would make interactions like using your 1 into a wall, turning back and bullet jumping into a Tail Wind fun and reliable. Would that not be amazing? Also, make Divebomb activate every time you hit a surface and make it actually reliable by proccing a knockdown all the time, no matter what animations the enemy are in right now. This would make it FAR less clunky to use Divebomb because any contact with a surface would make it.

Now about the hovering. Let it charge twice as fast and when you charge it it should let you move like an aim glide or something similiar. A Zephyr just can NOT stay in 1 place and do nothing. This has to be fixed.

Airburst. Make it faster, let it interact in a way with Turbulence and make it cost 25 energy so it was not a waste of an ability. Pretty much it.

Maybe both Tail Wind and Airburst could have scaling damage? Even if the scaling is small just to make it feel a bit more impactful?

Turbulence. Speed up the animations to return that 0.5 second extra casting animations. Maybe let us use it again before it ends so we could have another wind shield?

Tornado. What uncle Thay said in this post.  

To be honest, most of the things i want are similiar to his post, except i want the divebomb to also proc when hitting a surface, making Tail Wind stop and let us move much more freely. But that's the only difference imo.

 

EDIT: also some 25 base energy to her would really be nice because for real mobility she kind of has to spam abilities, at least her 1.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Ernestasx

[DoomFruit]

For those of you who are on console builds (and therefore the "older" version of Zephyr), I have a request. I want some hard numbers for turbulence's casting time and animation lock. The new one has a lot more twirly crap than the old one, but it is possible that they sped things up to compensate.

 

To that end, if you're willing to do so, would you be able to time how long it takes to cast turbulence (with no Natural Talent or other such effects)? The method I use is to hold forward, tap 3 (or whatever button serves that purpose on controllers) while still holding forward and start the timer. Zephyr will stop moving while she casts; stop the timer when she starts moving again. Do this 10 times and post the average here; alternatively, don't reset the timer between attempts and divide the final result by 10 (this is what I'm doing).

 

I get 11.1s for 10 tries, or 1.1 seconds animation lock.

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

10 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

2. you cannot shoot enemies or use melee attacks during tailwind so i'm sorry what was your point again?

You always could shoot during Tailwind before the rework.

10 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

Your stance is "go back to the tired old kit we've already had for years".

Well, kinda, but not really her kit as a whole. I want Tailwind to work very similar to how it worked for all these years, because I don't think Tailwind was ever a problem in her kit. Divebomb and Tornado were, for various reasons. Divebomb mostly for the lack of damage or other form of impact on the battle, and Tornado mostly for the lack of consistency, neither of which were really addressed properly in DE rework, although on paper tornado changes was a step in the right direction. Sure Tailwind needed some polish, bugfixes, etc, but the core of the ability was always decent and very fun to use.

At this point we should just agree to disagree, because all you keep saying is how your idea is superior and ultimate solution that is absolutely perfect for everybody and there's no reason anybody in the world can ever dislike it, because it's so perfect. The main reason I dont like it, which you fail to understand somehow, is that it would change her playstyle, which is the primary reason why I like playing Zephyr. At this point I don't really care what they even do to anything beside Tailwind and Turbulence, because it was basically the core of her playstyle for years, and if they change that it might as well be not my favourite frame anymore.

However I think there is a compromise. If the steerable Tailwind could be enabled/disabled, I wouldn't really mind it. For example if you hold Aim you can steer your Tailwind, while doing it without Aiming would do it straight with free camera.

Edited February 11, 2018 by (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

For those of you who are on console builds (and therefore the "older" version of Zephyr), I have a request. I want some hard numbers for turbulence's casting time and animation lock. The new one has a lot more twirly crap than the old one, but it is possible that they sped things up to compensate.

 

To that end, if you're willing to do so, would you be able to time how long it takes to cast turbulence (with no Natural Talent or other such effects)? The method I use is to hold forward, tap 3 (or whatever button serves that purpose on controllers) while still holding forward and start the timer. Zephyr will stop moving while she casts; stop the timer when she starts moving again. Do this 10 times and post the average here; alternatively, don't reset the timer between attempts and divide the final result by 10 (this is what I'm doing).

 

I get 11.1s for 10 tries, or 1.1 seconds animation lock.

I did it by recording a video and then finding the activation spot, actual shield appearance, and the time you can start moving again.

So it's 0.4 seconds from the start of the cast (the moment your ability icon fades) till the actual shield appears and the ability timer start running. Then there's extra 0.7 seconds where you are still locked in the animation. So the total animation is 1.1, but the shield appears after 0.4 seconds.

So yeah, if it actually takes 1.1 second for the shield to appear in the new animation, then it's a pretty big difference.

[ligonare]

Airburst improvement: Deflects projectiles in trajectory (corpus lazers, napalm, rockets, etc). I want to give napalms a taste of their own medicine.

And reduce energy cost to 25 pls.

[Azamagon]

Imo, the biggest issue is just Tailwind, really. The others only need some minor changes. So, let's start with the easy ones:

Turbulence

• Honestly don't see the need to change anything here. Leaving it alone would be fine, imo.
• If they want Ability Strength to do anything for this ability (augmentless), here's a simple idea:
  Make Jet Stream innate, but only with 10% movespeed and 25% projectilespeed, and ONLY for Zephyr. The augment then buffs those values up to the current values (40% movespeed and 100% projectilespeed), along with making it a buff you can share with allies.
  But that would just be fluff, really.

Air Burst

• Vastly increase projectilespeed (and let it benefit from Jet Stream's projectile bonus...)
• Make it ragdoll enemies IN towards the centre
• Remove its limitted lifetime.

Tornado

• Make it hold enemies MUCH better than now. Sure, it's better than before, but it's still dreadful at it (as you can even shoot enemies OUT of the Tornado)
• Make the Tornadoes faster in movement. Like, by a lot.
• Make it search for enemies on its own, within a limitted AoE (the centre of this "Tornado anchor" would be where you aimed the cast). Steering them should just be a bonus (if even removed?).
• Recasting unsummons the current Tornadoes, rather than immediately summoning new ones (more similar to abilities like Prism, Mind Control etc).
• Augment should hold enemies, but just one enemy per Tornado, and hold them very steady in the middle. Also, it should make the Tornadoes REALLY fast.

Tailwind

• Revert the insane momentum. Some momentum is good, but it's over the top right now.
• Tap = Launch straight up if on the ground, or forward where you aim if cast midair (basicly, old Tailwind)
  Hold = Breaks your movement momentum near immediately and puts you in Hover mode. This would either require you to keep holding the button to remain in Hover mode, or it could "lock" you in Hover mode so you can let go of the button (which version would you prefer?). Regardless of version, Hover mode drains 2 energy per second (doesn't prevent Zenurik/EV etc, and is of course affected by Power Efficiency).
  From hover-mode, you can do all your current actions as normal, but depending on the Hover version (hold-to-remain-in-Hover, or lock-in-to-Hover), some actions become different:
  • If using the "hold-TW-to-remain-in-Hover" version, simply pressing the jump button causes you to do the Divebomb action. Simply letting go of the Tailwind-button is what takes you out of the Hover-mode (Overall, I prefer this version, as it's very fast to use).
  • If using the "hold-TW-locks-you-in-to-Hover" version, you'd need to holdcast Tailwind once more to perform Divebomb. In this version, jumping or rolling is what takes you out of the Hover-mode. (This version is slower, but is a bit less button-straining).
• The Divebomb would also be way more potent:
  • Aimable at a rather big angle (in contrast to its current steep restriction). The AoE of the Divebomb will also be displayed while in Hover-mode (similar to the AoE-displays on Tempest Barrage and such).
  • Damage is now FINISHER-type.
  • Damage scales even better with height.
  • Radius is doubled, and is increased slightly more depending on the height you drop from (capped bonus of +50%)
• Tailwind (but not Divebomb) is a onehanded cast, allowing you to shoot etc while Tailwinding, including completely breaking its momentum with other parkour moves.

Passive

• Now includes 3x longer aimglide duration as well.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Azamagon
Spelling

[LuckyCharm]

As a loki main i tried her out. (I used to play her a ton btw for excavation missions. ) and while i love her 1 changes, dont particularly mind her turbulance change, what gets me is the tornado change. When i cast it it just kept losinh grip on enemies, getting confused by doors, and generally not moving towards my cursor as i was hoping

[ObviousLee]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

1-You always could shoot during Tailwind before the rework.

2-Well, kinda, but not really her kit as a whole. I want Tailwind to work very similar to how it worked for all these years, because I don't think Tailwind was ever a problem in her kit. Divebomb and Tornado were, for various reasons. Divebomb mostly for the lack of damage or other form of impact on the battle, and Tornado mostly for the lack of consistency, neither of which were really addressed properly in DE rework, although on paper tornado changes was a step in the right direction. Sure Tailwind needed some polish, bugfixes, etc, but the core of the ability was always decent and very fun to use.

3-At this point we should just agree to disagree, because all you keep saying is how your idea is superior and ultimate solution that is absolutely perfect for everybody and there's no reason anybody in the world can ever dislike it, because it's so perfect. The main reason I dont like it, which you fail to understand somehow, is that it would change her playstyle, which is the primary reason why I like playing Zephyr. At this point I don't really care what they even do to anything beside Tailwind and Turbulence, because it was basically the core of her playstyle for years, and if they change that it might as well be not my favourite frame anymore.

4-However I think there is a compromise. If the steerable Tailwind could be enabled/disabled, I wouldn't really mind it. For example if you hold Aim you can steer your Tailwind, while doing it without Aiming would do it straight with free camera.

1-you're going to have to provide some proof on that, because in the several years of playing her exclusively that's never been an option. Ever. So bug or blatant lie, unless you can demonstrate consistent proof via video. Also don't you think if this were an option to hell with that had been removed people would be be losing their minds over it? Kinda seems like it'd be a topic in if itself but you're the first to even claim it exists. 

2-the problem is whether or not you think tailwind is a problem is nullified by the fact that tailwind it's a problem. The animation locks are a problem. The basing the range distance off duration is a problem. The not effecting enemies in collision and getting smacked in the dome and killed because you're locked in the animation is a problem. 

This isn't about how we feel about it, this is acknowledging the fact that the ability has always had issues that still have not been addressed. 

3-pretty sure that's nothing close to what I've said in the slightest. Haven't said its superior, haven't said its better, nor have I said its perfect for everyone forever times infinity, twice. I've said NOTHING even SUGGESTING that. What I HAVE SAID however, is that my suggestion fixes her mechanical issues and OFFERS MORE DIVERSE PLAY. It offers more DIRECT CONTROL. It IMPROVES and utilizes everything in her kit to a more cohesive end than what she current offers, as well as in the past. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. It's childish and you're better than that. 

4- I personally don't see the value in giving a mechanic an option to remain in the present broken format but the repaired version while aiming. That seems like a terrible solution. 

 

[(PSN)Gaelic-_-Flame]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

you're going to have to provide some proof on that, because in the several years of playing her exclusively that's never been an option

That's always been there. I'm actually surprised you didn't know about it, have you really waited to reach the maximum height every time, when doing ground launch? Because it was always so obvious that you could shoot during the whole launch and it doesn't interupt anything, including reloads. The forward dash is a little bit less fluid, and it has an interuption when your Tailwind animation/cast ends, so it interupts continuous fire or reloads. You can still shoot during it though, and with semi-auto weapons that reset is almost unnoticeable.

If you still don't believe me, here's two gifs I quickly made just now:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

the problem is whether or not you think tailwind is a problem is nullified by the fact that tailwind it's a problem. The animation locks are a problem. The basing the range distance off duration is a problem. The not effecting enemies in collision and getting smacked in the dome and killed because you're locked in the animation is a problem. 

Okay, yeah I get it, everything you say are facts, and everything I say are opinions. Funny enough I did address all 3 of these problems you mention in my posts in here. Of course it's still an inferior solution to yours, because yours is based on facts and mine isn't or whatever...

Honestly I'm done with this conversation, it really doesn't go anywhere and is just a waste of time.

[Cryssoberyl]

I have something else to report. In addition to Jet Stream being slower in its movement/projectile speed bonus compared to before, I've discovered that the bonuses randomly cut out completely. While using my Scourge, the (highly visible) projectiles of which benefit greatly from the increased flight speed, I have found their speed randomly reverting to their normal, far slower speed even while Turbulence is still active.

 

I will be posting a bug report thread in the appropriate subforum (update: thread here) but I wanted to bring attention to this here as well. This is a CRITICAL bug and cannot be allowed to remain overlooked and unaddressed.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Cryssoberyl

[DoomFruit]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Gaelic-_-Flame said:

I did it by recording a video and then finding the activation spot, actual shield appearance, and the time you can start moving again.

So it's 0.4 seconds from the start of the cast (the moment your ability icon fades) till the actual shield appears and the ability timer start running. Then there's extra 0.7 seconds where you are still locked in the animation. So the total animation is 1.1, but the shield appears after 0.4 seconds.

So yeah, if it actually takes 1.1 second for the shield to appear in the new animation, then it's a pretty big difference.

I've just measured the time between cast and ability timer activation, and I get 0.85s (8.5s cumulative for 10 tries). Not quite 1.1s for shield activation, but very close and very much a nerf from her previous state.

[Tarak]

It's better than it was, but it still has a lot of issues.

I would have liked to see her current passive just being applied as a brief after-cast effect on her 1 and replaced by something that wasn't mostly annoying, her 1 chargeable at anytime (suspending her in place during the charge if she's airborne) to increase the range and damage it would do and essentially have any surface impact be a dive-bomb, her 1's augment either stay what it was or more fundamentally change her power (maybe change it into a channeled hold ability that would move based on camera direction with a very short turning time, allowing you to control her 1 more but changing it from the single cast to a channeled ability), her 4 to hold enemies and more actively seek them, and the augmented 4 to at least draw enemies in and stagger them.

I would have liked to see more than this, but those would be the bare minimums... Her passive is more often than not a hindrance; her one is still pure mobility, and only decent at being that; her new 2 is okay, but still lacking a bit of stand alone usefulness; and her 4 is more annoying to other players than anything, and when augmented to not lift enemies it doesn't really do anything useful at all.

Side note, I am glad the tornadoes were changed from mag damage... that's never made any sense to me... I can't think of any reason for that except that it was the most useless damage type and status proc in the game and it would encourage players to override it with something else... now how about have it as an even IPS spread that adds elemental damage... Makes a lot more sense to me and would be more useful. The tornadoes are picking up bits of debris, and those bits of debris are cutting/bashing/piercing enemies caught up in them... Mag damage was just... why!?

Edit: I'd also like to see the new tornado aim leading mechanic taken a step further and instead mark enemies you aim at and have the nearest tornado follow them until it hits them, so you are't more often than not just sending your farthest Tornado away as you go for head shots and are aiming near but past the enemy's head half the time...

Edited February 22, 2018 by Tarak

[Insizer]

I personally like Air burst as it is a decent CC skill with a little bit of range, but I will agree that while I play her more than I did before, her "rework" isn't incredibly game-changing for her

[Birdframe_Prime]

So, after now having a couple of weeks to play her and test her, and waiting for the inevitable patches and updates, I think I'm going to chuck my oar in here.

A lot of people here might know me, and many might have read my actual feedback thread. My views haven't changed all that much since, but they've had a couple of Patch Notes to think about since.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

Tail Wind. The horizontal movement portion of this skill is as clunky as it ever was. You still cannot change direction, still cannot cancel it by rolling or jumping. It does travel faster and farther now for a given build, but that may or may not be desireable as you will find yourself cannoning into walls and obstacles and having to wait out the animation.

While the travel distance and momentum of Tailwind has noticeably made it worse to try and use this ability in small corridors, I've noticed that the actual animation of Tailwind has been shortened, even on the longer duration builds this means that if you have a way to cancel out the momentum (such as re-casting or using Dive Bomb) the ability is actually improved over the previous iteration.

Not a lot, and not in confined spaces, but the ability was never good in confined spaces anyway. I will note that the ability does seem to better pass through enemies too, meaning that aiming down corridors or lines of enemies is now possible (which is the only thing that allows Target Fixation to function currently, even though you are guaranteed to land or hit a wall after the cast, self-negating the gains of the Augment except on the very last enemy in the line...), at the very least it means that Zephyr can now get out of those narrow spaces through a crowd without bashing her head on the nearest Heavy Gunner or needing to kill everything in her way.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

The hover portion of the skill is, frankly, completely useless.

Indeed, anywhere with a ceiling it is. Although... some tiles have a bit of leeway, and this is definitely a change made for the Landscapes (more on Venus, apparently, soon) as I've put it to good use while in the middle of a camp of Grineer out on the plains (very difficult to lay down a mortar fire on a warframe that's not on the ground).

It's also extremely useful if you want to have some stationary air time for lining up shots with snipers (very important) and for some un-interrupted time away from the melee units. Being able to regen energy while up there also means you can cast a few Air Bursts with the half-cost to make sure your time is even less interrupted.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

Dive Bomb was bad and remains bad in this iteration

This is complete agreement from me, I've spent literally a year explaining to people in threads that this option, the 'combine the two' doesn't fix anything, it just hides the problems.

Dive Bomb could be doing everything that Airburst currently does, but also act as an 'engage' mechanic, by having both the in-air slam and an on-ground effect, but... no. That's not the way DE decided to do it.

What Dive Bomb needs is some kind of visual representation of when it becomes Dive Bomb and not Tailwind; something in the reticle or a 'landing target' on the ground to show that this will stop you, while anywhere else would have you grind your beak on the floor.

Unfortunately, there's still no reliability to the knockdown, and even the 'improved' damage doesn't seem to help it do anything useful.

But the worst thing about this change isn't that it hasn't done anything for the function (as it's not a whole ability anymore) is that, in short, there is literally no reason to cast Dive Bomb anymore outside of quickly getting down to the ground again. Everything it does apart from the landing part of it is done better by Airburst. It might as well not even be in the kit anymore, and that makes me a little upset as somebody who has enjoyed the cast in all its under-performing glory since day 1.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

This skill, the desperately needed new skill that was supposed to help give Zephyr new life, is nothing more or less than a slow, weak, difficult to aim projectile that has a small explosion on impact.

On use, this is actually my favourite part of the rework. One of the first patches improved the speed... a little... but I'd still very much like it to be boosted by Jet Stream, it is a projectile after all.

The radius is genuinely not all that small, and the projectile is especially useful for the knock down of enemies in a straight line. It's my go-to skill when I'm in any tiles with confined spaces, and is beautiful at handling groups.

On the down side, it really is still so slow, and definitely needs that boost to make it travel, you know, like Wind.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

There is, simply, no reason to ever use this skill at all, not even to "enlarge" Tornadoes

I mean, this is where I have to disagree, the skill has grown on me more and more, the ragdoll isn't too outrageous, the damage is okay for Zephyr standards, and the fact that a quick tap of the Jump halves the cost? Brilliant little skill.

Shame that it's replacing what could have been a better skill, but... we should work with what we have.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

Turbulence has been nerfed by its unnecessary and unasked for "new unique animation", which is just a casting animation - a much longer casting animation than it had previously.

Agreed, but not as vociferously, the animation itself isn't that much longer, but the effect of the animation being there now means that the effect of Turbulence now starts 1.4 seconds after the press of the button, where before it happened 0.9 seconds after. A nerf of 0.5 seconds to the cast time isn't much, but on a frame like Zephyr, where it's her main damage prevention skill, it's definitely a nerf and it does hurt my soul.

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

Tornado. First of all, the conceit that Tornadoes now do "a better job" at holding enemies is just that. Enemies still routinely fall out of them, the only difference is that they are not flung away like before.

Actually, what I've found by this is something I wasn't expecting.

The enemies may fall out of Tornado funnels just as easily, but there's something that's come from the 'doesn't fling enemies away' bit, and that's the fact that by capturing and dropping enemies, instead of lifting, rotating and flinging them, one of the biggest downsides to Tornado has been removed.

Something a lot of people were interested in seeing (not personally interested myself, because there were better ideas out there) is also the tracking your point of aim. People are having fun trying to understand this concept, but every person I've seen struggling with it has been aiming in the air somewhere, instead of trying to direct the Tornado funnel to an actual location, as if they think that the funnel just tracks your aim direction. It's been patched to be faster, much faster actually, and can catch a running unit at last (something I've been trying to get Tornado to do for years now), and it can even be directed around you for when you're about to be mobbed by melee units.

In point of fact... I can't name any downside to actually casting the ability anymore.

Why? Because of the most recent patch:

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

shoot the tornadoes to damage enemies in them

Quote

• Critical Chance, Critical Multiple, and Status Effect Chance now all apply to enemies inside Zephyr’s Tornado.

Even if the enemies are not held for very long, there is now no downside to shooting them in or out of Tornado. Tornado is now purely a hard CC that has a slightly randomised duration of effect on enemies.

It's even re-castable, even though what we wanted was an actual cancel, because what we wanted to see was a reliable duration of CC on Tornado, but even then... there's no reason to not cast it.

And that's something I was genuinely surprised to find out.

On the other hand, this:

On 10/02/2018 at 1:41 AM, Cryssoberyl said:

Finally, "enlarging" the tornadoes by using Air Burst on them appears to have no noticeable effect on their horizontal pickup range.

Actually, I can't see that this has any value at all... it appears to be a visual thing only, in honesty. You don't hold any more enemies, they don't get held for longer, there is no extra damage or status chance...

Frankly, there doesn't appear to be anything beneficial to doing this at all.

So.

tl;dr

As a four year Zephyr player, I don't like this rework. It goes against the better ideas of hundreds of threads on the topic and caters only to the loudest voices, most of which knew nothing about what would have been beneficial for Zephyr, and all of which just wanted something to change.

But.

There are surprising high points to this rework, and if this is all we're getting, I can certainly make the most of it. I want that half second back on my Turbulence cast, thanks DE, but everything else is generally a buff. Not always the buff we wanted, and certainly not all the buffs we needed, but buffs.

Zephyr is better. Just not better in the way we wanted, or the way we actually could have enjoyed more.

[Terrornaut]

On 2/9/2018 at 9:25 PM, ObviousLee said:

Players have a problem using zephyr because her rework is abysmal. Those of us who've used her extensively have become intimately aware of her issues and have made literally THOUSANDS of suggestions over the course of YEARS on how to remedy them only to be blatantly ignored and handed this greek tragedy in a can of a rework.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 9:25 PM, Caelward said:

I'm no longer confident they read Zephyr feedback.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 9:32 PM, Caelward said:

Zephyr's problems have been explained ad nauseum on the forum. To the extent that new players would just get assaulted with information by all the veterans to the conversation.

We've had literal years of talk about all the ways in which Zephyr does and doesn't work and the ways she could be better.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 10:00 PM, Caelward said:

This is her literal first rework.

The First.

The only work she'd had outside of this has been years of slight Turbulence fixes.

And on the First rework they do of Zephyr, [DE] ignored the bulk of years of feedback and did their own thing that reflects nothing more than the first post of 'Hey Zephyr should like float like a bird, because she's a bird.' type threads

Many of us love Zephyr for what she did. She moved! She moved so fast and all over the place! Like a gust of wind! All of the current changes have resulted in preventing her from moving! Why wouldn't we be upset when the frame who gives us so much freedom is suddenly shackled by updates so many of us never wanted.

Pretty much my feeling and the heading of their direction.  They're kind of hearing community, but not really listening.  So, some input, but ultimately they're going to do their own thing regardless of input.  The TW+DB combo was a nod to the most common sentiment, but yeah, they pretty much ignored years of constructive, well thought out and analyzed feedback.  Can't expect them to see everything, but hover, turb changes, ember fireball charge?

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

While the travel distance and momentum of Tailwind has noticeably made it worse to try and use this ability in small corridors, I've noticed that the actual animation of Tailwind has been shortened, even on the longer duration builds this means that if you have a way to cancel out the momentum (such as re-casting or using Dive Bomb) the ability is actually improved over the previous iteration.

[ . . . ]

What Dive Bomb needs is some kind of visual representation of when it becomes Dive Bomb and not Tailwind; something in the reticle or a 'landing target' on the ground to show that this will stop you, while anywhere else would have you grind your beak on the floor.

Unfortunately, there's still no reliability to the knockdown, and even the 'improved' damage doesn't seem to help it do anything useful.

But the worst thing about this change isn't that it hasn't done anything for the function (as it's not a whole ability anymore) is that, in short, there is literally no reason to cast Dive Bomb anymore outside of quickly getting down to the ground again. Everything it does apart from the landing part of it is done better by Airburst. It might as well not even be in the kit anymore, and that makes me a little upset as somebody who has enjoyed the cast in all its under-performing glory since day 1.

On use, this is actually my favourite part of the rework. One of the first patches improved the speed... a little... but I'd still very much like it to be boosted by Jet Stream, it is a projectile after all.

[ . . . ]

In point of fact... I can't name any downside to actually casting the ability anymore.

Why? Because of the most recent patch:

Even if the enemies are not held for very long, there is now no downside to shooting them in or out of Tornado. Tornado is now purely a hard CC that has a slightly randomised duration of effect on enemies.

[ . . . ]

There are surprising high points to this rework, and if this is all we're getting, I can certainly make the most of it. I want that half second back on my Turbulence cast, thanks DE, but everything else is generally a buff. Not always the buff we wanted, and certainly not all the buffs we needed, but buffs.

Zephyr is better. Just not better in the way we wanted, or the way we actually could have enjoyed more.

I use airburst now pretty much how I used Divebomb vortex (I used it and not jet stream funny enough) on a max range build.  I'd jump over a crowd, or just hop in the air and DBV and get a decent area of knocked down enemies to mop up, or, to suck into things like Mag bubbles, Nidus grabbers, etc. Airburst is basically the same thing now, without the vortex, but less interesting and fun. Its probably more convenient though.

The changes to tornadoes though, I had no idea crit and all wasn't applying to tornadoes during testing (though it was super late when I tested and then did my video).  After testing it further, with funnel clouds, the results can be pretty ridiculous.  What sometimes takes multiple clips of certain weapons to kill crowds, zeph can now kill those crowds in 2-4 shots depending on the weapon and timing of tornadoes.  That's something. She can actually do serious damage now, at least.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Terrornaut

[Azamagon]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So, after now having a couple of weeks to play her and test her, and waiting for the inevitable patches and updates, I think I'm going to chuck my oar in here.

A lot of people here might know me, and many might have read my actual feedback thread. My views haven't changed all that much since, but they've had a couple of Patch Notes to think about since.

While the travel distance and momentum of Tailwind has noticeably made it worse to try and use this ability in small corridors, I've noticed that the actual animation of Tailwind has been shortened, even on the longer duration builds this means that if you have a way to cancel out the momentum (such as re-casting or using Dive Bomb) the ability is actually improved over the previous iteration.

Not a lot, and not in confined spaces, but the ability was never good in confined spaces anyway. I will note that the ability does seem to better pass through enemies too, meaning that aiming down corridors or lines of enemies is now possible (which is the only thing that allows Target Fixation to function currently, even though you are guaranteed to land or hit a wall after the cast, self-negating the gains of the Augment except on the very last enemy in the line...), at the very least it means that Zephyr can now get out of those narrow spaces through a crowd without bashing her head on the nearest Heavy Gunner or needing to kill everything in her way.

Indeed, anywhere with a ceiling it is. Although... some tiles have a bit of leeway, and this is definitely a change made for the Landscapes (more on Venus, apparently, soon) as I've put it to good use while in the middle of a camp of Grineer out on the plains (very difficult to lay down a mortar fire on a warframe that's not on the ground).

It's also extremely useful if you want to have some stationary air time for lining up shots with snipers (very important) and for some un-interrupted time away from the melee units. Being able to regen energy while up there also means you can cast a few Air Bursts with the half-cost to make sure your time is even less interrupted.

This is complete agreement from me, I've spent literally a year explaining to people in threads that this option, the 'combine the two' doesn't fix anything, it just hides the problems.

Dive Bomb could be doing everything that Airburst currently does, but also act as an 'engage' mechanic, by having both the in-air slam and an on-ground effect, but... no. That's not the way DE decided to do it.

What Dive Bomb needs is some kind of visual representation of when it becomes Dive Bomb and not Tailwind; something in the reticle or a 'landing target' on the ground to show that this will stop you, while anywhere else would have you grind your beak on the floor.

Unfortunately, there's still no reliability to the knockdown, and even the 'improved' damage doesn't seem to help it do anything useful.

But the worst thing about this change isn't that it hasn't done anything for the function (as it's not a whole ability anymore) is that, in short, there is literally no reason to cast Dive Bomb anymore outside of quickly getting down to the ground again. Everything it does apart from the landing part of it is done better by Airburst. It might as well not even be in the kit anymore, and that makes me a little upset as somebody who has enjoyed the cast in all its under-performing glory since day 1.

On use, this is actually my favourite part of the rework. One of the first patches improved the speed... a little... but I'd still very much like it to be boosted by Jet Stream, it is a projectile after all.

The radius is genuinely not all that small, and the projectile is especially useful for the knock down of enemies in a straight line. It's my go-to skill when I'm in any tiles with confined spaces, and is beautiful at handling groups.

On the down side, it really is still so slow, and definitely needs that boost to make it travel, you know, like Wind.

I mean, this is where I have to disagree, the skill has grown on me more and more, the ragdoll isn't too outrageous, the damage is okay for Zephyr standards, and the fact that a quick tap of the Jump halves the cost? Brilliant little skill.

Shame that it's replacing what could have been a better skill, but... we should work with what we have.

Agreed, but not as vociferously, the animation itself isn't that much longer, but the effect of the animation being there now means that the effect of Turbulence now starts 1.4 seconds after the press of the button, where before it happened 0.9 seconds after. A nerf of 0.5 seconds to the cast time isn't much, but on a frame like Zephyr, where it's her main damage prevention skill, it's definitely a nerf and it does hurt my soul.

Actually, what I've found by this is something I wasn't expecting.

The enemies may fall out of Tornado funnels just as easily, but there's something that's come from the 'doesn't fling enemies away' bit, and that's the fact that by capturing and dropping enemies, instead of lifting, rotating and flinging them, one of the biggest downsides to Tornado has been removed.

Something a lot of people were interested in seeing (not personally interested myself, because there were better ideas out there) is also the tracking your point of aim. People are having fun trying to understand this concept, but every person I've seen struggling with it has been aiming in the air somewhere, instead of trying to direct the Tornado funnel to an actual location, as if they think that the funnel just tracks your aim direction. It's been patched to be faster, much faster actually, and can catch a running unit at last (something I've been trying to get Tornado to do for years now), and it can even be directed around you for when you're about to be mobbed by melee units.

In point of fact... I can't name any downside to actually casting the ability anymore.

Why? Because of the most recent patch:

Even if the enemies are not held for very long, there is now no downside to shooting them in or out of Tornado. Tornado is now purely a hard CC that has a slightly randomised duration of effect on enemies.

It's even re-castable, even though what we wanted was an actual cancel, because what we wanted to see was a reliable duration of CC on Tornado, but even then... there's no reason to not cast it.

And that's something I was genuinely surprised to find out.

On the other hand, this:

Actually, I can't see that this has any value at all... it appears to be a visual thing only, in honesty. You don't hold any more enemies, they don't get held for longer, there is no extra damage or status chance...

Frankly, there doesn't appear to be anything beneficial to doing this at all.

So.

tl;dr

As a four year Zephyr player, I don't like this rework. It goes against the better ideas of hundreds of threads on the topic and caters only to the loudest voices, most of which knew nothing about what would have been beneficial for Zephyr, and all of which just wanted something to change.

But.

There are surprising high points to this rework, and if this is all we're getting, I can certainly make the most of it. I want that half second back on my Turbulence cast, thanks DE, but everything else is generally a buff. Not always the buff we wanted, and certainly not all the buffs we needed, but buffs.

Zephyr is better. Just not better in the way we wanted, or the way we actually could have enjoyed more.

After playing Zephyr a whole bunch lately, I'm of a VERY similar opinion as you.

I think the only things that actually BOTHERS me by now are:
1) The longer Turbulence casting animation. Feels a bit unnecessarily long, really, considering how extremely vital it is for her. Shortening that down would be nice.
2) The inability to CANCEL (rather than instantly recast) Tornado. Minor grievance, but still something that can be bothersome. So, cancel instead of recasting, please?
3) Tailwind-dash and its general remaining issues (I've gotten more used to this current version though, it isn't really THAT bad)
4) That Divebomb is still entirely useless, basicly (and uncontrollable when you want it)
5) The clunky casting mechanics and bugs related to Tailwind's air hover
6) Tailwind's augment being 100% useless (one of the worst in the game, imo).

And point #3, #4 and #5 can be fixed with relative ease:
Tapcasting Tailwind = Dash forward at all times
Holdcasting Tailwind = Hover (and break momentum) at all times. Mild energycost per second (doesn't interrupt energyregen though).
Hover + Jump (or whatever key-input chosen) = Divebomb (with quite an angle)
Then just buff Divebomb to be a decent ability (be it with damage, CC, debuffing or a mix of that)

Point #6 I'd adjust with those Tailwind-changes in mind, like for example, giving it some kind of debuff effect (Slow-effect on all Tailwind/Divebomb-struck enemies, for example?)

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Azamagon

[EchoesOfRain]

1 hour ago, Azamagon said:

Tapcasting Tailwind = Dash forward at all times
Holdcasting Tailwind = Hover (and break momentum) at all times. Mild energycost per second (doesn't interrupt energyregen though).

 

At this point this is all I'm asking for. We've not heard anything more about improving the state of Zephyr's rework. Just give me this small change and I can cope

 

[ObviousLee]

31 minutes ago, EchoesOfRain said:

 

At this point this is all I'm asking for. We've not heard anything more about improving the state of Zephyr's rework. Just give me this small change and I can cope

 

I'd rather have complete control of her movement than just some awkward hold 1 to be still. 

[Caelward]

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Zephyr is better. Just not better in the way we wanted, or the way we actually could have enjoyed more.