Warframes and Abilities to be Nerfed

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Checht said:

Excalibur

 

I might be stepping over my boundary here as Excalibur is the least used frame out of the 3 presented here. However, I still find this skill to be obviously overpowered and can be spammed to easily get through endgame content

Radial Blind

 

Problem: From the description, Radial Blind is supposed to “blind all enemies in a small radius” and “for several seconds”. However, by “small radius” it is a range of 25 m, longer than most AoE skills, and by “several seconds” it is 15 seconds, which is even longer than Volt’s Discharge. With Energizing Dash, it is again a low-cost ability that can be spammed to immobilize enemies indefinitely.

 

 Nerf Suggestion: Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted

Okay, stop right there. Obviously overpowered? You do know that the LoS is already too buggy for that statement to be valid right? You know, where some enemies refuse to be blinded just because another enemy was in the way even though I could definitely see both of them? Or sometimes even directly ignore the blind for no explicable reason? Look, I couldn't care less about nerfing this skill's range (not to 8m though, that's ridiculously small, maybe 15-20m or something would be fair). I just want this skill to be actually viable. Hell, you could even remove the opener attack, but none of this matters if it still relies on a terrible LoS mechanic. If anything, Radial Blind SHOULD affect everything in a spherical range (that's what "radial" means).

Edited March 22, 2018 by Guest

[GeoffFromAccounting]

5 hours ago, Checht said:

Hallowed Ground has a 15 m range, Discharge has a 20 m range, Sound Quake has a 20 m range, Miasma has a 15 m range, Rhino's stomp has a 25 m range. I could go on listing many more radial AoE skills that have less than or just equal to Radial Blind's range. Please elaborate more on why 25 m is not a lot (especially without any range mod equipped yet), and especially on a melee-centred frame. 50 energy is not a lot, it is spam-able with the current energy economy.

Hallowed Ground serves a different purpose, Discharge does not have 20m effective range (are you forgetting that the duration decreases over distance?), is designed for damage, and is already in need of a buff, Soundquake is damage over time/area denial, Miasma is a nuke, Rhino ignores LoS checks (unlike Excalibur). The only ability here with the same purpose as Radial Blind is Rhino Stomp, which is arguably better than Radial Blind due to the lack of LoS checks. If not better then they're certainly equal. Though surprisingly you didn't target Rhino in your little list.

You can't use Radial Blind base stats as an argument, and then ignore Excalibur's base stats. Excalibur has 150 energy base at max level. 50 energy of that is exactly a third of that pool. Even if we take into account mods and Trinity/Harrow/Zenurik/Whatever, all the changes you're proposing would do is lead Radial Blind to be spammed more, not less, as you'd have to spam it in order to actually do anything to more than one enemy per cast. Either that or they'd all move to Rhino for the same purpose. Don't get me wrong, energy is a bit of a mess at the moment, but trying to treat the symptoms instead of curing the cause is not going to help anyone. What needs to happen is an overview of the energy system, and then look at Trinity, Harrow, and Zenurik. Not haphazardly nerfing frames the frames that are able to use this overflow of energy.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

wHeRe iS tHe SpOnGeBoB mEme?!

 

[Darkmatt3r]

kek much!

[RubAxy]

8 часов назад, Checht сказал:

1)I am inviting you to post any other frames that you've used with enough experience that should be nerfed...     ...The aim of this thread is to bring up in the context where level 80-100 missions are introduced outside of Sortie 3...

2)Wukong, Loki etc. are also OP... 

3)...  Volt ... just think a slight nerf to "spammability" of Discharge is good.

4)... Please elaborate more on why 25 m is not a lot, and especially on a melee-centred frame.... 

5)Yes this reduces playing as Ash to "can I kill fast enough?" and not "can I survive this mission?", thanks to his permanent invisibility, which I find unsatisfying.

1)You pointed idea of your post badly,  and I don't think we should deal with Frames first at this. 

2)Loki - maybe, but Wukong hardly OP (some skills even needs buff). He's hard to kill (in right hands) but not everywhere, try against high-lvl infested for example (with swarm of Disruptors). Also he has allergy to Leechers and Nullifiers =) 

3)You can always increase energy cost.  =).  But even if this skill spamable, I do not see it OP. And it serns this problem shows only for your play-style and mod-build. There's lots of builds that are good at specific situations, and your type of nerfing certainly kills that versatility. 

4) 25 is small, considering it became FoV skill long ago. As you sad, he is a melee frame, but this is not just a melee game,.  CC is needed, especially if you're not supported by other players. And again build-versatility - Excalibur not just a melee frame, it's a balanced frame for beginners that can be modded for different purposes. 

5)Again it's appointing your playstyle on others(may be good but this not the case) . For me Ash's invisibility is too short. Try low-duration, high-range/efficiency build with smokebomb - you'll see other problems in your theory. 

P. S. If nerfing range, than for all Warframes! But no more than for 2-3m (right after Melee 3.0.=)) 

P. P. S. This game is not Destiny-like, more of Dynasty Warriors series, with different skill mechanics from both of them. 

8 часов назад, EmissaryOfInfinity сказал:

I agree with the premise, but not the execution. The power creep in Warframe has gone too far, and needs to be reigned in if we ever want to have a challenge again. Unfortunately, as you can see from the responses in this thread so far, most Tenno aren't too keen on the idea of giving up even a fraction of that power...it won't be a fight won easily.

Sorry but there is just no good answer to that.

For example, I would like there to be more (quantity) low-enemies, less Eximus but more powerful, want better melee system. Bigger enemy quantity possible, but DE must drop players with old computers. Stronger enemies that not only have more HP are hard to devekop, also should not be too hard to deal with,  smth like that was shown with infested on streams. Melee would be easyer to fix, if this game only have melee weapons, or only played with gamepad, but it is not. 

That's why DE try to do what they actually can #SOON ≠). for as many people as possible. 

Just wanted to say that it's not a problem of OP but more r of personal taste and of what could be done with all that. 

P. S. In my opinion warframes ant their skills are the only thing that  should not change too much. At the same time I want other things to change that not necessary other people would like. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by RubAxy

[Desperado14]

Meanwhile, let' not talk about loki, octavia, or ivara invis which is all longer, mirage blind, equinox/ivara sleep, exalted blade, polarize, magnetize, defy, I could go on and on.  Not saying any of these abilities are op (cause they arent), just more powerful than any that you mentioned in most situation.  Just because you can one shot high level enemies doesn' mean you will complete the mission.  Go ahead and try doing a sortie 3 mobile defense or even survival with ash and covert lethality.  

[Ventura_Highway]

15 minutes ago, Desperado14 said:

Meanwhile, let' not talk about loki, octavia, or ivara invis which is all longer, mirage blind, equinox/ivara sleep, exalted blade, polarize, magnetize, defy, I could go on and on.  Not saying any of these abilities are op (cause they arent), just more powerful than any that you mentioned in most situation.  Just because you can one shot high level enemies doesn' mean you will complete the mission.  Go ahead and try doing a sortie 3 mobile defense or even survival with ash and covert lethality.  

Having used Loki, and Ivara, I'd advocate less nerfing invisibility and more letting enemies deduce the player's location despite them being invisible.

[tCartmant]

34 minutes ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Having used Loki, and Ivara, I'd advocate less nerfing invisibility and more letting enemies deduce the player's location despite them being invisible.

So, basically negating they are invisible?

[Desperado14]

2 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

Having used Loki, and Ivara, I'd advocate less nerfing invisibility and more letting enemies deduce the player's location despite them being invisible.

Again.  Even perm invis does not guarantee mission success.  Not dying is an essential part of mission success, but there is always another goal.  Perm invis on a mobile defense/ defense/ sobatoge/ excavation would leave enemies to only destroy the defense target.  Mission failed.  Not saying it is impossible, just more difficult. Damage and not dying is not equal to mission success.  It takes the right tools in the toolbox for each mission.  

[XaoGarrent]

14 hours ago, frizipop said:

You misunderstand, OP wants EVERY frame to be nerfed

OP should play another game. Warframe isn't for them, it sounds like they'd be more at home in one of the dozens of Everquest clones we've seen over the years.

[Ventura_Highway]

2 hours ago, Desperado14 said:

Again.  Even perm invis does not guarantee mission success.  Not dying is an essential part of mission success, but there is always another goal.  Perm invis on a mobile defense/ defense/ sobatoge/ excavation would leave enemies to only destroy the defense target.  Mission failed.  Not saying it is impossible, just more difficult. Damage and not dying is not equal to mission success.  It takes the right tools in the toolbox for each mission.  

 

If this argument is based off the premise that we should absolutely definitely succeed in a mission that is designed to be "endgame" and actually engage players at that level, well guaranteed success and actual challenge are two properties of a level that would be at odds with each other.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

So many abilities...

As a Volt fan, i will just focus on Volt.

Maybe i have the wrong idea, but for me, a cool factor is more important than any damage numbers or cc. Utility is a must on a Warframe...

Volts discharge is cc. DE has stated many times they dont want it to be crowd control, but thats what it is.

I would rather see it stun less than to have a timer on when u can use the ability

The lord of lignthing being limited isnt attractive. It only makes the game less fun. Any ability on a timer would make the game less fun.. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[Birdframe_Prime]

20 hours ago, Checht said:

Yes, but 5 seconds cooldown for a 15 seconds stun is trivial, isn't it

Except it's 15 seconds stun on those particular enemies, the ability is Line-of-Sight and enemies standing around a corner or behind any object can simply step out and continue attacking. In which case, 5 seconds before the next cast is a very long time without CC on those enemies that should have been caught in the first one.

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

20 hours ago, Checht said:

I believe this is what DE originally intended Smoke Screen to function, rather than being a permanently invisible frame that casually picks off enemies one-by-one.

You mean like a... ninja? Ninjaframe shouldn't play as a traditional stealth ninja? Are you serious?

20 hours ago, Checht said:

Introduce a cooldown time for Discharge of 30 seconds. It fits with this skill anyway, as you are supposed to need some time to restore your charge after “discharging”. This would require players to use Discharge smartly, to judge when to use it for maximum advantage, rather than just spamming it. If DE wants to be fancy they can introduce a “Discharged” debuff of 30 seconds after casting Discharge, which would only function to lock the Discharge skill (much like Phoenix Renewal). 

(assuming you build for range and use Zenurik in the first place)

There's a reason DE removed cooldowns. Nobody liked it, and that's why we have energy. Besides, it doesn't fit with the game's flow. And I'd say being "safe from danger" for 8 seconds (assuming an Ancient says otherwise) is pretty fair in a game where some players could have the survivability of a level 5 enemy. On top of that, shields are pretty, welp uh-- bad.

20 hours ago, Checht said:

Make it fit with the description of the ability. Instead of 25 m, make it 8 m. Instead of 15 s, make it 6s. With this nerf, ranged units can still pose a threat to Excalibur. However, the survivability of Excalibur may take a great hit and maybe some buff to his health can be granted.

Why would anyone agree with this? While we're at it, let's make all the other abilities fit their descriptions!

[Nazrethim]

hace 20 horas, LSG501 dijo:

Also if you don't like the low cost, increase the cost of your abilities by using blind rage so your efficiency is lower, in fact everything you've mentioned in this 'nerf' thread can be fixed by building your frames to suit YOUR requirements. 

Or just nerf power efficiency to scale linearly like the other 3 power stats instead of scaling exponentially. That would fix mindless power spam all across the board.

hace 20 horas, LSG501 dijo:

And cool downs are not a solution for the game, it's bad enough on harrow, if you start forcing cool downs into the game you're in essence turning it into a generic 'gun and run' type game.

Actually, you can have a fast paced game with cooldowns provided the cooldowns are short or can be reset quickly if certain actions are performed. Take for instance the MoP/WoD Combat Rogue: it had cooldowns but on higher gear it was like a blurr with constant action and cooldowns reseting very fast thanks to ruthlesness.

The reason we don't have cooldowns is because of our (frankly outdated) energy system. If we had alternatives to it we could add cooldowns to certain things. For example, what if Trinity had her old original Blessing, but had a cooldown that lasted twice it's duration? You may aim for longer duration, at the cost of longer cooldown, or shorter cooldown at the cost of reduced duration.

What if Ash had only 100 energy and his abilities weren't affected by Efficiency, but Shuriken had 15 energy cost, SScreen had 3 charges on a 30s cooldown to reset each, Teleport costed 15 energy and Blade Storm costed 100 energy, lasted only 10s and didn' have cost per mark, on a 1min cooldown. The kicker? Each Finisher or Shuriken kill shortens SScreen charges cooldown and BS cooldown by 2-4s.

The problem is that we are limited to our current system, if DE went ahead and got creative with resource management we could get way more interesting gameplay. Ember's WoF could be a caster supermode empowering her other abilities, with a buff that over time increases in potency but also increases in cost, and stacks of that buff fade away over time instead of instantly when you turn WoF off, so your gameplay regarding WoF consists of juggling it's stacks and using Ember's whole kit instead of turning on WoF and going to sleep.

What if Banshee's sonic abilities were affected by terrain the way Octavia's AMP is?

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

What if Ash had only 100 energy and his abilities weren't affected by Efficiency, but Shuriken had 15 energy cost, SScreen had 3 charges on a 30s cooldown to reset each, Teleport costed 15 energy and Blade Storm costed 100 energy, lasted only 10s and didn' have cost per mark, on a 1min cooldown. The kicker? Each Finisher or Shuriken kill shortens SScreen charges cooldown and BS cooldown by 2-4s.

I don't know about others but I sure don't want to have to go into that much 'micro managing' of my abilities, this is a PvE (we can ignore conclave...) and it's meant to be 'mindless' fun imo, not something where you need to spend more time managing your abilities than actually killing stuff.

[Nazrethim]

hace 2 horas, LSG501 dijo:

I don't know about others but I sure don't want to have to go into that much 'micro managing' of my abilities, this is a PvE (we can ignore conclave...) and it's meant to be 'mindless' fun imo, not something where you need to spend more time managing your abilities than actually killing stuff.

Sure, because sitting on yer arse with an Ember or Banshee while the game plays itself is so much fun. Not that BS isn't that already on it's execution. If it was just "Mindless fun" then it would never go past lvl40 and never feature enemies more complex than Lancers and Crewmen.

And actually, only infinite energy (or the ridiculously overpowered Efficiency stat) allow for mindless gameplay, otherwise you sort of need to develop some skills.

Also I play WoW, so I'm used to managing two different resources+ 10 (or more) buttons (regular abilities, cooldowns, potions, trinkets, etc), and the getting some awesome results from a well executed combo is way more satisfying than pressing one button. Same thing goes for boss fights, I like the Eidolons and Kela da thaym because they are interesting (though the "chroma required" aspect of Eidolon hunting is very annoying) and feature mechanics that sort of go beyond "group up and attack until the boss dies". Again, I play WoW, where boss fights like Warframe ones are low level or vanilla era stuff, current boss fights have lots of stuff going on that makes them harder and engaging.

My point is that adding those kind of game mechanics would spice things up and open more creative paths for DE to take in the future.

[(PSN)the-creeperman]

I want DE's ability to nerf frames and weapons.. nerfed.

[nerfinator6]

No.

[KennBone]

stop ask for nerf we need buffs no nerf..

[TotallyLagging]

>warframes and abilities to be nerfed

oh boy what is it now, equinox? mesa? saryn? gara? banshee again? ember again? trinity link?

 

>ash, volt and excal

LUL

 

>ash smoke screen, volt discharge, excal blind

OMEGALUL

[LSG501]

7 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Sure, because sitting on yer arse with an Ember or Banshee while the game plays itself is so much fun. Not that BS isn't that already on it's execution. If it was just "Mindless fun" then it would never go past lvl40 and never feature enemies more complex than Lancers and Crewmen.

And actually, only infinite energy (or the ridiculously overpowered Efficiency stat) allow for mindless gameplay, otherwise you sort of need to develop some skills.

Also I play WoW, so I'm used to managing two different resources+ 10 (or more) buttons (regular abilities, cooldowns, potions, trinkets, etc), and the getting some awesome results from a well executed combo is way more satisfying than pressing one button. Same thing goes for boss fights, I like the Eidolons and Kela da thaym because they are interesting (though the "chroma required" aspect of Eidolon hunting is very annoying) and feature mechanics that sort of go beyond "group up and attack until the boss dies". Again, I play WoW, where boss fights like Warframe ones are low level or vanilla era stuff, current boss fights have lots of stuff going on that makes them harder and engaging.

My point is that adding those kind of game mechanics would spice things up and open more creative paths for DE to take in the future.

So even though I never even mentioned ember/banshee (where I've already said here or elsewhere that the reworks didn't work) you bring them up as the usual frames to 'nerf'....you do realise that our weapons are more than powerful enough to go to level 100+ and it still be 'mindless fun', I know I have no issues killing stuff mindlessly in sorties, just because everything we have (as veterans) makes life easy at low level doesn't mean the frames need a nerf, we need maps at the level of our weapons that we can access all the time...

This isn't WoW where micromanagement is expected, it's fundamentally a board game concept imo, warframe isn't.

Adding those kind of mechanics would not spice things up imo, you could argue they already have by forcing the operators on us and a lot of players openly dislike that aspect of the game being pushed on us.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'd rather not Nerf the player, instead I'd rather they mix in powerful mid bosses into the mobs that force the players to unify to take it down...Warframe's Dynasty Warrior appeal of a power fantasy has served it well over five years, where other games that have adopted balance balance balance...are dead or dying...or onto the next repeat money grab... ad nauseum

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Yeah yeah nerf excalibur again.

Not like they haven't done it before.

This will be the 9th time since Exalted Blade changes. Definitely in the double digits if we count from Warframe initial launch.

I knew this kind of thing was gonna happen when they move him to Mars.

The people who love making nerf posts the most are always the newbies who haven't cleared the starchart.

Also, can't believe Loki, Inaros or Ivara didn't even make this "OP" list..lol (Not that they should be nerfed)

[Gandergear]

You look like a cod player who hates abilities to begin with so

No

Your ability changes.are dumb and you should feel bad, i dont want some sourpuss like you dictating how my abilities should work.