This Tactical Alert Is Everything Wrong With Warframe

[Tellakey]

Dear Digital Extremes,

Artificial length and spamming the same ability is not a challenge, nor is it quality gameplay. What we need to focus on is an active, tactical approach to combat - constant movement, use of parkour, careful aiming for weak spots, strategic positioning, tricky enemies, better damage scaling and less focus on pure dps, removing pure dps mods in favor of more flexible modding (use of niche mods).

Many players are crying about Nullifiers but they are a great example of the tactical challenge we need more of.

I recall Steve on a periscope claiming he was on a game-development conference that will teach him how to solve issues in the game. Is there any update on that? Because I hope something is in the works. Warframe is in a bad technical position If our current combat model is the last combat model.

Hugs and kisses :D

Disclaimer: No, I'm not suggesting the game should do a 180 and become Dark Souls. All I'm saying is we need a more tactical horde shooter.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Tellakey

[peterc3]

This isn't Dark Souls. You want a horde shooter to no longer be a horde shooter.

2 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

Warframe is in a bad position If our current combat model is the last combat model.

It's doing better than it ever has in the past.

[Tellakey]

7 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This isn't Dark Souls. You want a horde shooter to no longer be a horde shooter.

It's doing better than it ever has in the past.

Warframe found itself in the position of a horde shooter. I don't think DE has arranged for things to get to this place. Back in the old days the combat was slower and that wasn't a bad thing. You can see DE recognizes this issue by toning down melee to be less speedy and more tactical in the upcoming melee update. FInally, a game doesn't have to be Dark Souls in order to be less spammy and more engaging.

To clarify, I didn't say the game isn't successful. By 'a bad position' I meant technically, fun-wise. There isn't much of a controversy about the game's combat. Most people would agree it is riddled with issues that stem from its spammy, fast-paced, horde shooter nature.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Tellakey

[GinKenshin]

10 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

Dear Digital Extremes,

Artificial length and spamming the same ability is not a challenge, nor is it quality gameplay. What I want to focus on is an active, tactical approach to combat - constant movement, use of parkour, careful aiming for weak spots, strategic positioning, tricky enemies, better damage scaling and less focus on pure dps, removing pure dps mods in favor of more flexible modding (use of niche mods).

Everyone is crying about Nullifiers but they are a great example of the tactical challenge we need more of.

I recall Steve on a periscope claiming he was on a game-creation conference that will teach him how to solve issues in the game. Is there any update on that? Because I hope something is in the works. Warframe is in a bad position If our current combat model is the last combat model.

Hugs and kisses 😄

 

ftfy

Edited July 28, 2018 by GinKenshin

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

Everyone is crying about Nullifiers but they are a great example of the tactical challenge we need more of.

Ya know I was recently replaying quests and re-watching prime trailers and other trailers (e3, alad v, ect).

You know what I noticed? Even 5 years ago, a huge a** emphasis on warfarme powers. If you will bother to watch those you will notice that even in bloody trailers the main source of damage and main threat is warframe powers, capable of killing a whole squad and mop the floor with bosses.

And guess what. People come to Warframe to do those things. It's not De's problem or fault that we've played 3000+ hours and no longer feel anything. You're not suppose to do those things, but in mmo you can. Which is your choice.

Цитата

 I don't think DE has arranged for things to get to this place.

Yeah which further proves you have 0 idea what you're talking about,

Because the devs themselves said thet they like to smash hordes of enemies.

I mean that if you will forget about the dumb satement itself which implies that developers are so dumb that they first created a game andyears later realized they didn't create some metal gear stealth but instead some cyber zombie left for dead.

Edited July 28, 2018 by -Temp0-

[CreamedSoda]

22 minutes ago, Tellakey said:

Dear Digital Extremes,

Artificial length and spamming the same ability is not a challenge

I agree with this part, this alert took no skill at all, it was really just a gear check for "Can you kill these fast enough before they completely tank your energy and spam you with DOTs." not to mention every single mission was defence based, meaning it was time gated.

[Dahx11]

Welcome to looter shooters kid..

[Tellakey]

18 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Ya know I was recently replaying quests and re-watching prime trailers and other trailers (e3, alad v, ect).

You know what I noticed? Even 5 years ago, a huge a** emphasis on warfarme powers. If you will bother to watch those you will notice that even in bloody trailers the main source of damage and main threat is warframe powers, capable of killing a whole squad and mop the floor with bosses.

And guess what. People come to Warframe to do those things. It's not De's problem or fault that we've played 3000+ hours and no longer feel anything. You're not suppose to do those things, but in mmo you can. Which is your choice.

Yeah which further proves you have 0 idea what you're talking about,

Because the devs themselves said thet they like to smash hordes of enemies.

I mean that if you will forget about the dumb satement itself which implies that developers are so dumb that they first created a game andyears later realized they didn't created some metal gear stealth but instead some cyber zombie left for dead.

Your polite approach really makes me wanna converse :/

Um... yeah, abilities are a huge part of combat, as they should be. It's what sets every Warframe apart. What I take issue with is spamming said abilities nonstop. In other words, spam-to-win.

If the devs told you they like Dark Souls tomorrow would that mean they're going to make this Warsouls? What they like and don't like doesn't have a bearing on the direction of this game. For all we know they like dating simulators, so why not introduce update 24: Lotus dating mini-game? Plus, who is the devs, exactly? Does the entirety of DE like horde shooters? If only 50% likes it then what? Why does it matter?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Tellakey

[seprent]

we are getting a melee rework thats going to heavily shake up how combat might work (or ruin it depending on who you ask)

But this game is a horde killer/looter if they wanted us to slow down and take our time with things they wouldn't let us be this powerful and throw this many enemies at us for us to swat aside like tin cans to a bat and nullifiers arnt that hard to deal with just fling yourself at them kill them in melee or shotgun blast them then continue with already established rampage. Most units that could sway us around at most takes a higher priority on the "what to kill first" list but you probably already know it. Probably the reason combat was slow in the start or at least what i thought when i was playing was engine limitations a game that early in beta cant handle much stress so spawns were lower and as warframe developed they slowly dripped more spawns in. This isn't the first tactical alert to throw a small armies worth of troops at you i understand this may not be everyone cup of tea (And or beverage of preference) but saying this alert is everything wrong with warframe when have done many other events on the same level on number slaughter is well kinda dumb. Since DE have made the game to be like this even enjoying the ways we go about smashing a large group in a few blows if it really was DE's vision to make a slower more tactical game question rises why didn't they do that instead of this horde killer looter we have now  it would be pretty idk redundant to drop this style after its been established over the past 5ish years to do that don't you think?

[DrBorris]

Opinions are funny...

 

That said, my biggest issue with the event is how low the spawns were. It may be rose tinted glasses, but I remember the last time Proxy Rebellion showed up the spawns were higher than normal. The enemy level on the later missions was a bit disappointing as well, the first time (and only other time it was a guaranteed drop) we got the Rift Sigil it was level 100-150 enemies, and keep in mind these enemy levels were considerably harder than they are now because of powercreep.

[Tellakey]

5 minutes ago, seprent said:

we are getting a melee rework thats going to heavily shake up how combat might work (or ruin it depending on who you ask)

But this game is a horde killer/looter if they wanted us to slow down and take our time with things they wouldn't let us be this powerful and throw this many enemies at us for us to swat aside like tin cans to a bat and nullifiers arnt that hard to deal with just fling yourself at them kill them in melee or shotgun blast them then continue with already established rampage. Most units that could sway us around at most takes a higher priority on the "what to kill first" list but you probably already know it. Probably the reason combat was slow in the start or at least what i thought when i was playing was engine limitations a game that early in beta cant handle much stress so spawns were lower and as warframe developed they slowly dripped more spawns in. This isn't the first tactical alert to throw a small armies worth of troops at you i understand this may not be everyone cup of tea (And or beverage of preference) but saying this alert is everything wrong with warframe when have done many other events on the same level on number slaughter is well kinda dumb. Since DE have made the game to be like this even enjoying the ways we go about smashing a large group in a few blows if it really was DE's vision to make a slower more tactical game question rises why didn't they do that instead of this horde killer looter we have now  it would be pretty idk redundant to drop this style after its been established over the past 5ish years to do that don't you think?

Again, I'm not suggesting to do a 180 on the combat. If it's a horde shooter it's a horde shooter. It doesn't mean we can't flavor in some use of tactics. Are you disagreeing that DE current definition for difficulty is bad? I.e,  stronger and more bullet-spongy enemies alongside prolonged missions? Would you like to see a 30 wave mission for a mediocre reward?

[Loza03]

I half agree.

Half.

I do feel Warframe needs more tactical challenge. I don't believe it should be the core focus of the game.

The game's a horde shooter. That's kind of the point. You're basically a demigod, so powerful and skilled that nothing can stand before you, not even an army. And therin lies the rub.

Right now, the horde mechanics don't make you feel skilled - there are very few threats to your godhood, so it's very low-skill. I deal with this by making the strongest loadout I can whilst minimising cheesiness. Obviously, power on this scale is by nature cheesy, but the trick is to make that feel fun and skilled, even when it might not be. Nullifiers and Isolator Bursa's are the only units that, at present, can withstand this, and as a consequence, the former (the only common enemy like it) is spammed. Which given how hard it counters cheese, makes it not very fun to deal with when more than one's arrived in a short time frame or at once.  

Whilst it'd be a fair bit of work to deal with this, it'd be worth it. So, perhaps enemies that do what Nullifiers used to do in a wide radius on top of rarer, more powerful nullifiers, and perhaps some enemies that can ignore abilities inherently (they'd need to be pretty weak though). Perhaps other enemies that specifically counter weapon cheese (We have sniper enemies, rework them to target players acting in predictable patterns?). What might this achieve? Well, you'd walk into a room and instead of just being able to say "DIE" and win, you have to think "Are there any threats in this room? Are they in a tactical position that might cause me problems to quickly deal with them?" Then you'd act accordingly to that. And then, once you finish off the few targets that make the rest of the room dangerous, then you can say "DIE" and mop the floor with the rest.

In short, instead of unlimited power being the default, it'd be the reward for quick thinking. This could even be tuned by abilities and faction - for example, maybe Corpus (known for Ability countering) have a lot of ways of countering abilities except for Stealth abilities. Now, in a team setting, that gives stealthframes a reason to exist. They can use their stealth abilities to sneak up on these powerful units and kill them, leaving their hard hitting teammates free to wreak havoc. Communicating, pre-made teams now can excel in these missions. 

 

Tl;Dr, A little extra tactical challenge would make the slaughter all the more satisfying.

Edit: I recognise now you share a similar opinion about the focus, but the flow of the post kind of requires that first part. Sorry.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Loza03
Addendum.

[Krion112]

I don't necessarily think this tactical alert took spamming abilities to win. I did it with my friends, and we didn't have to really spam abilities. And, we got around magnetic procs a lot, because our Loki player was able to quickly assassinate the magnetic Hyenas and energy leech eximus units, so we weren't really scarce on energy either.

But, I will say, I think the fast-paced, general demand for that kind of combat is prevalent in Warframe, and while fun in short bursts, it lacks satisfaction in the long run. Plus, it causes a lot of issues in the development of the game; because we can always kill things so quickly and thoughtlessly, everything rewarding in the game has to be drawn out more and placed behind more arbitrary limitations (ie, Argon, Daily Reputation Limits, excessive grind for certain Warframes, etc).

The most basic game-play is unsatisfying, and it's been a long standing issue with Warframe. And Horde-style combat still has limitations and necessary design that Warframe doesn't live up to anyway, so using that as an argument, as so many people are, isn't justifiable. I mean... seriously, putting sniper rifles in and including evasion-based Warframes is already proof it's not supposed to be exclusively a horde shooter game, rather horde fighting is just one single facet of Warframe's many faces.

[Soketsu]

il y a 27 minutes, Tellakey a dit :

Dear Digital Extremes,

Artificial length and spamming the same ability is not a challenge, nor is it quality gameplay. What we need to focus on is an active, tactical approach to combat - constant movement, use of parkour, careful aiming for weak spots, strategic positioning, tricky enemies, better damage scaling and less focus on pure dps, removing pure dps mods in favor of more flexible modding (use of niche mods).

Everyone is crying about Nullifiers but they are a great example of the tactical challenge we need more of.

I recall Steve on a periscope claiming he was on a game-creation conference that will teach him how to solve issues in the game. Is there any update on that? Because I hope something is in the works. Warframe is in a bad position If our current combat model is the last combat model.

Hugs and kisses 😄

 

I do not remember crying about nullifier, but next time remember to not say that nullifier is an issue for everyone, instead use many or some please.

Beside many do not "spam" their powers to win but just to gather loot faster.

Then about" constant movement, use of parkour, careful aiming for weak spots, strategic positioning, tricky enemies" this kind of gameplay would more fit (to me) into arena/index mission where there are only elite ennemies but I don't think DE want to force this unlike the operators. I mean is that a good idea to try a parkour against a platoon of lvl 120+ grineer and their sniping grakata ? because right now it would just make me to do good old tactic like in the 2+ hours survival of old void.

And lastly, warframe in a bad position, sorry to not trust you but do you have a(/any) source(s) ?

[Tellakey]

6 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

I do not remember crying about nullifier, but next time remember to not say that nullifier is an issue for everyone, instead use many or some please.

Beside many do not "spam" their powers to win but just to gather loot faster.

Then about" constant movement, use of parkour, careful aiming for weak spots, strategic positioning, tricky enemies" this kind of gameplay would more fit (to me) into arena/index mission where there are only elite ennemies but I don't think DE want to force this unlike the operators. I mean is that a good idea to try a parkour against a platoon of lvl 120+ grineer and their sniping grakata ? because right now it would just make me to do good old tactic like in the 2+ hours survival of old void.

And lastly, warframe in a bad position, sorry to not trust you but do you have a(/any) source(s) ?

Thank you for the feedback. Will change 'everyone' to 'many'. :D

And uh... I guess I'll also tweak my bad position line, because this is the second misunderstanding about it. I didn't mean the game is in a bad financial position, but a technical quality position.

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

Again, I'm not suggesting to do a 180 on the combat. If it's a horde shooter it's a horde shooter. It doesn't mean we can't flavor in some use of tactics. Are you disagreeing that DE current definition for difficulty is bad? I.e,  stronger and more bullet-spongy enemies alongside prolonged missions? Would you like to see a 30 wave mission for a mediocre reward?

• well none of the enemies are in the way of a bullet sponge to me and some of them do take some thinking Sargent ruk, lieutenant lech kril, tyl regor to some extent, and others what i would say on that is enemies might need a tweak in their armor department we have the damage to kill a pure health bar its armor that is making them sponge the damage and DE if i remember correct makes every weapon if possible to go to level 60 anything past that is our concern with what weapons we bring and you can build most weapons to 1-3 tap a level 60 enemy
• they also said they want to make people who go longer more rewarding so for right now im fine with it since something is better then nothing im probably the worse person to ask that question since in warframe since most the time i dont really care for the reward since its normally something i already have and im use to fissures shafting me on stuff thats the grind
• on use of tactics nullifiers kinda at least make you notice them then the combi units got changed to make a pulse of there helmet effect over a constant aura so while you could input more tactical enemies it will most likely boil down to just what we have now kill them and move on with out a second though so what could be done to make it more tactical in a hordee killer 

[Modeaus]

The problem we have is that DE's idea of challenge is a gear check. That doesn't scale well as it's a hard ceiling for newer players and an afterthought for veterans. I solo'd these (Maim, Sleep, Inaros, Inaros) in a single sitting and the hardest part was taking calls for work at the same time. The content wasn't hard. It wasn't challenging. It was a gear check. On top of this despite the interest of some unique mobs it wasn't engaging enough for me to go back and do it again. Just like ESO, once I have the rewards where's the incentive to play again?  

But that aside I'd still say 'Thanks' to DE fo at least taking the time to put something different in. It shows that they're still trying and listening to the community and not only focusing on the new open world release. 

[Tellakey]

10 minutes ago, seprent said:

• well none of the enemies are in the way of a bullet sponge to me and some of them do take some thinking Sargent ruk, lieutenant lech kril, tyl regor to some extent, and others what i would say on that is enemies might need a tweak in their armor department we have the damage to kill a pure health bar its armor that is making them sponge the damage and DE if i remember correct makes every weapon if possible to go to level 60 anything past that is our concern with what weapons we bring and you can build most weapons to 1-3 tap a level 60 enemy
• they also said they want to make people who go longer more rewarding so for right now im fine with it since something is better then nothing im probably the worse person to ask that question since in warframe since most the time i dont really care for the reward since its normally something i already have and im use to fissures shafting me on stuff thats the grind
• on use of tactics nullifiers kinda at least make you notice them then the combi units got changed to make a pulse of there helmet effect over a constant aura so while you could input more tactical enemies it will most likely boil down to just what we have now kill them and move on with out a second though so what could be done to make it more tactical in a hordee killer 

• I'm fine with bosses being slightly more bullet spongy. Plus, DE is taking great steps in making every boss fight tactical and multi-layered (see Eidolons, etc...). But what makes a regular enemy more difficult than the other is how much damage they do and how big of a health bar they have. 
• I have no problem with rewarding longer endurance missions as long as that's not the defining endgame. I think we both agree that something is better than nothing, but it's not better than something better ;)
• Yea, so what I want is more enemies with tactical equipment like the Nullifiers. Another example is the shield drone. Either you ignore it and face the penalty of dropping more bullets on an enemy, or you quickly aim for it in order to take away the supported mob's advantage. This is a great feature that stays true to the horde shooter identity of the game while also adding a little challenge.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Tellakey

[(XBOX)Avant Solace]

Really the worst thing I found about these alerts were my teammates. Like 80% of the people I got matched up with were using underleveled frames and weapons, thinking it would be easy XP for them. I even got paired up with an MR 1 Volt who was utterly helpless the whole time.

I actually like the difficulty spike, throwing UBER units into the fray. What I didn't like was there was no forewarning for people that it actually was difficult even though the level was low.

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Tellakey said:

• I'm fine with bosses being slightly more bullet spongy. Plus, DE is taking great steps in making every boss fight tactical and multi-layered (see Eidolons, etc...). But what makes a regular enemy more difficult than the other is how much damage they do and how big of a health bar they have. 
• I have no problem with rewarding longer endurance missions as long as that's not the defining endgame. I think we both agree that something is better than nothing, but it's not better than something better 😉
• Yea, so what I want is more enemies with tactical equipment like the Nullifiers. Another good example for an enemy is the shield drone. Either you ignore it and face the penalty of dropping more bullets on an enemy, or you quickly aim for it in order to take away the supported mob's advantage. This is a great feature that stays true to the horde shooter identity of the game while also adding a little challenge.

• im one on the game of making the enemies armor stack has a more diminishing return since you can get 30k to do 300 to a bombard  or some where close to that at high enough levels
• true something is better then nothing and something better is always a chance of being gotten but like said if i remember right steve said about doing something to make longer runs more worth it since there is technicality no point going past rotation C or was it D idr it would be more efficient to leave and come back then to stay 
• combi i know have sheilds and weird weapons snipers got those drone pads they can throw ancients buff those around them heal them, make powers almost pointless against them and take all status effects form them to itself (Granted that last one is more of a liability cuz radiation procs) while can agree they could use more tools if i had to choose who to give them too i would say the grineer since defense wise they have the odd arctic eximus and a shield lancer offence wise they are fine but maybe give them a few more utility tools like in the plains they can throw fire and frost grenades 

[Kalvorax]

36 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Opinions are funny...

 

That said, my biggest issue with the event is how low the spawns were. It may be rose tinted glasses, but I remember the last time Proxy Rebellion showed up the spawns were higher than normal. The enemy level on the later missions was a bit disappointing as well, the first time (and only other time it was a guaranteed drop) we got the Rift Sigil it was level 100-150 enemies, and keep in mind these enemy levels were considerably harder than they are now because of powercreep.

i dont understand why everyone is saying low spawn rates...did they just run it solo? heck the only one i found to be a snooze fest was the interception...but is just due to how to AI go after control zones.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, peterc3 said:

It's doing better than it ever has in the past.

I can't disagree here because DE profits off of casual content and accessibility for new players. Player retention is still a major point of concern for some players. Digital Extremes has promoted Warframe and has expanded the current playerbase immensely. On the other hand, we still lack content that promotes team composition and requires thinking. Mindless mission spamming is not something I personally agree with. I agree with @Tellakey that we should get more missions designed to make players aware and alert and have more tactical elements.

[Misgenesis]

While the constant energy leeching in this tac alert is terrible gameplay wise, it really weeds out the people who are helpless without ability spam.

Overhauling energy intake would arguably go a long way in bringing back more thoughtful gameplay.

[sati44]

13 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

While the constant energy leeching in this tac alert is terrible gameplay wise, it really weeds out the people who are helpless without ability spam.

Overhauling energy intake would arguably go a long way in bringing back more thoughtful gameplay.

 

Squad Energy Restore (Large) - we had no problem spamming cc and nuking the whole map constantly. And before you go "oh i bet you burned 200 per player blah blah blah" nah not really I used 10 max or so? Still had 150 left. Energizing dash on top of that all.

Edited July 28, 2018 by sati44

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

You know, if a normal Defense mission with a little extra difficulty is "everything wrong" with the game, maybe this game isn't for you.