(PSN)slightconfuzzled

I mean, I don't consider it useless, so i am not really sure how to address your post necessarily. Like if your implication is that you think its underrated, then I'd probably agree, but also, I don't know whose builds you are looking up and referencing, or why I should care about their builds exactly. Its a bit like if I claim that chocolate ice cream is overrated... because a lot of my friends consider it the best ice cream flavour ever... I mean, sure, but thats just a set selection of people. They don't necessarily represent all people. I also don't really consider its intent and design to be a DPS/KPM, level cap style weapon (on its own). I think it works well as a utility weapon, so Dante can have a way to procc many of the Tome mods, which can compliment many builds possible around his kit. Some people frame it as being in competition/conflict with his kit, but you can also use it to compliment his other abilities. So it could have value in high end hard content, but even as a utility weapon in lower content it can kill fast (and even kill in base Steel Path decently, depending on how you build). (Oh and welcome to the Forums!)

Hello! So my take, I'll split it into points. 1. I think opening a support ticket to request a refund is totally fine and good. I don't know a great about the specific details around why and how refunds are processed at DE, and what specifically qualifies and what doesn't, how much discretion is applied, and so on. Regardless there could be many reasons a consumer may feel justified, and as such an avenue for such requests should always be available and encouraged, within general reason. 2. Personally I would avoid the term "false advertising" if I could. Its a pretty loaded term that many people throw around way too casually and often, thus often diluting and making the term near useless in many legit and sincere situations. A lot of random regular online anonymous people think the term has this innate weight and authority and its like a automatic win button, they can just use as a big scary threat against companies or businesses, regardless of context or legal knowledge and understanding. A lot of people in general, overestimate such terms actual effectiveness, and think anger and threatening are more effective, when often context dependent, its not. It can be more nuanced, depends on the situation and context and power dynamics involved. Alternatively a lot of people also underestimate how valuable sincerity can be in such situations. Liking feeling mislead, and like your effort and currency were undermined, on its own, without additional factors like "you ruined my purchase, they were strong and now they are literally useless" style hyperbole. 3. See the nature of refunds and being mislead aren't just an issue with community ideas about power and nerfs. Some people, though, specifically, because of how they are, will attempt to weaponise more general and sincere ideas around consumer rights and refunds, just because they oppose nerfs so strongly. Now its fine to oppose such things that strongly but some conflate the two, and whilst there is some overlap... Well, in simple terms, people can get volatile and try to lash out in multiple ways, and to be crystal clear, I am not saying that is happening here or that anyone specifically is guilty of this, its more of a general concept and idea. Like if you sincerely feel mislead and now own something you wouldn't have brought otherwise, thats super valid and fair to want a refund. The same way if you brought a colour palette, only to find out the colours you thought you were buying, were replaced with a single colour not shown in the preview or purchase page. 4. There are more complicating factors though in regards to above. People should be aware of how the game operates and functions being a live service game with constant updates. This itself doesn't invalidate and dismiss any and all issues born from the temporary nature and status of certain items, but all purchases in the game, should be made by a discerning, informed and considered consumer, within a certain amount of reason. For example, you shouldn't buy a Prime Access Warframe, and then by confused learning you can get the same Prime Warframe in game for free by grinding. Its possible you might get a refund if you didn't and make a request, but if you continued to make purchases, later become informed of new information that already existed and thus requested a refund, even assuming you are being obliged (which may not necessarily be the actual case) well... In shorter concise terms, buyer be aware. Which to be clear, doesn't mean I don't empathise and sympathise with people who felt mislead, and especially those they spent hard earned currency. I am big on consumer rights, which means, we have ti be aware that in most places, its businesses and corporations that hold more power, so we have to do our best to be more informed and smart with our decisions. Alternatively... I have less patience for people who don't actually care about consumer rights, but just want to give more weight to their preferences. Or people who think that threatened DE with money or withdrawing means they have the authority and weight to insist on changes that specifically suit them and not other players. Which again, I am not saying thats the case here, just such conversations can attract those types. "We should just all sue DE for false advertising, then they will have no choice to make Voruna's body thicker than Wisps!"

Bad take. Only because it doesn't go far enough. We should extend it to every source of harm everywhere. I have a family friend, older guy, two cloned kids, a Kubrow, solo father. Wife left him for a rich Corpus tinhat. Worked the night shift in the Kuva Fortress for 2 decades. No overtime pay, no pay rises, no sick leaves, no vacations, and nothing for his commitment and loyalty to the Queens. The stuff he had to endure... You know the Hyekka Master's just let their Hyekka's piss where ever they want? Yeah my buddy had to clean up that piss, even though it wasn't in his contract. Grineer may like to advertise they are a family of brothers and sisters, but thats only so they can have BS work policies and take advantage of you. Anyway, my main point is, he finally made Eximus last year, and he earned that resistance and near immortality and you want to take it away? Instead we should make him immune to everything, including the sun eventually dying and going super nova, and the heat death of the Universe. The only things left in existence will be Eximus, floating through the cold cold vacuum of existence, trillions of years in the future, in a time so dank and lifeless, that nothing will really much anyway, including terms like existence, or CC, or Hyekka piss. Wait what?

All I am saying is that if more people played Conclave more often, eventually they would enjoy it. Warframes shouldn't have butts, because they serve no actual function. Some of the butts are also too big, Wisp, Nezha and Styanax Deluxe, Atlas, Mesa and Protea Prime are especially guilty. Flat cardboard blocks in their place would be more interesting and lore accurate. Octavia's music with her kit should be even louder and no one should be able to toggle it off, because we all work hard on creating her sound, and so everyone should be forced to listen to it. Yareli's K-Drive should be her subsume... so all Warframes can have the option to be a K-Drive Warframe. Heirloom skins should be more expensive, because they should be a sign of prestige, so when poor people look at you in game, they can tell you are successful and hard working. All missions should be under 5 minutes, otherwise they get boring. They should introduce a new third Premium Currency Regal Platinum, and introduce new cool stuff that can only be brought with it, so people who have Platinum and Regal Aya don't get complacent. All the colour palettes should be deleted, and all Warframes should be only grey. Ordis should be constantly talking in your Orbiter, and get progressively louder. Then if you try to mute him, he should threaten to delete your gear and then actually start deleting it. You shouldn't be able to grind for new Prime Warframes, in the first year of release. Only buy with real money. Then finally, Warframe should try to be more like Destiny 2... no, no Overwatch 2. Battle passes, plus get rid of all the solo content, and PVE, only PVP from no on.

I'm almost the complete opposite. I find a mix more interesting. Not all the Tome Mods are beneficial or assist with my overall build and play style. Like I don't really need more duration and strength. That and there are some general DPS mods that can greatly benefit how often I can use the Alt Fire to proc auxiliary effects. Like fire rate is great, having an element like heat is great, plus multi shot as well generally. Plus I play different content, so there are many lower level and normal missions where it will kill enemies. Even on tougher missions, it can kill weaker types of enemies, within each faction, even if it struggles DPS wise against Eximus or tougher enemies. Its fire rate is such it can inflict a lot of heat, so it can finish off a lot of already weakened enemies, but I also get so much energy regain and efficiency, areas of my build that might be reserved for energy economy (like say Energise) can be replaced, which I like, because I like using a variety of different Arcanes. That also being said... we have 3 default configs, so also have a config just for pure DPS, playing off its high Crit stats, and a config thats more support via Tomes. The mix config is the one I am using most though generally and finding more effective for how I play.

Congrats. It sounds buggy, especially if you already killed Nira and Boreal (you are only supposed to kill two Archons... that triggers a new situation, which develops the main story and then the third Archon you fight as your Warframe, which makes whoever they are the easiest). Regardless, am glad you can progress and continue on! Well done.

Oh, so its not just me. I was actually randomly sad that all my flowers seemed dead or... I am not sure, its not the fresh vibrant wall of colour I am used to seeing. Not in a super serious way, but I was a bit... thrown off. I hope they are aware of this issue and its addressed or fixed. I wasn't sure if this was an actual common issue or something else more specific. Oh and welcome to the Forums. Might pay to mention this issue in the Hotfix threads, or somewhere else other than general, I don't know if as much attention is paid here outside certain issues. I might mention the issue there as well, later.

I think they are fine. I played with them since, to finish off some Nightwave, and they were still fine, and killing enemies on Steel Path, so on. That being said, I still think the changes, all of them were premature, unnecessary and more time and feedback should have been collected. I still think the changes should be reverted, to their original release state, heck even make him more powerful but keeping some of the small buffs, and then make the decision that he won't be touched for the next 3 months to collect more data, then to decide if changes will happen. So even though I think they are fine, even though I am fine with nerfs involved with balancing, these changes happened so quickly... I am a Warframe player that has pretty much everything, because I play so much, but unless you brought Dante with Plat/Money, or rushed the foundry, even if you earned his parts on release, you still had around 3 days of waiting, and then it also assumed you then played those two other days... I might be wrong, but if feels like they just quickly reacted to a lot of early feedback from some, that may have seemed like a majority at the time, but quickly turned into a minority a few days later... I also think it sets a negative precedent, because for the next few Warframe releases starting with Jade, people will think "they will either be mediocre, and redundant, or if they are powerful, and fun? They will be nerfed..." which like... isn't ideal. For transparency, I also say that as someone who is pretty satisfied and happy with most Warframe releases, including Qorvex, Dagath, Yareli... Only a certain Warframe that many could guess, I had apathy and pity for, and think they need attention and changes... Thing is, even though I am happy with Qorvex and Dagath, and Gyre etc and disagree with the people who say they are weak or have flaws (but of course such things are subjective anyway), its still actually cool to see Warframes releases that are considered powerful and fun, and seem well received by the community. Like obviously if he overtook Revenant, Volt and Wukong in usage stats in a months time... well obviously that would need to be addressed, but I don't think we necessarily have the data to suggest that. See this update prior to Dante and Nezha (and CC nerfs), was actually pretty well received and popular, it was actually a bit surprising how positive the community seemed. Such a random and hectic week after. That all also being said, I don't think anyone at DE lied, to me that suggests deliberate conscious thought and action to deceive. I don't think thats true or accurate. I'm also not mad or that negative over the situation either. I sympathise with those that are, but for me, its just not that personal. In another way, in a vacuum without context, its actually really great that DE heard early reactions and attempted to make adjustments to address peoples concerns... Except players and fans aren't a monolith or hive mind... trying to please us all is going to be tricky... Like there are some people who thought Dante was too strong but still disagreed with the nerfs, some people who think the nerfs were too much, some probably think he should be nerfed more, some think he is overpowered and thats a problem, and some who think he is over powered but that its fine, and some people whose suggestions and fixes and solutions to all this, seem way worse than anything DE would do... Another thing I have to remember is that DE can often act, really really slowly. Over stuff. Often, they might have a quick solution to a perceived problem... but the struggle and conflict that tends to blow up, is when that quick solution causes more conflict and drama that solves... because then, it creates a weird situation, where DE probably doesn't want to make things worst and just has days and days of changes and fixes... So they probably have to slow down and consider more things, discuss stuff internally, reassess more things... and instead of a quick fast change, switch to thinking about the solution they will offer in two weeks or a month. Consider situations like Regal Aya, Heirlooms, so on, where the quick solution created more issues, but regret was expressed and in Regal Aya case, a better solution ended up implemented, and with Heirlooms, its a bit more wait and see.. With this, we are already going to be getting some Chroma buffs and possibly other LOS buffs/fixes for other Warframes, so thats good, but yeah... So for myself I have learned to be patience over such things. So even if Dante isn't reverted, even if I think he should, I think he is fine, but also fine isn't necessarily great either, short term or long term.

Thats a brilliant suggestion. I'll keep that in mind for the future. I rarely use Vazarin, but thats a great point as far as its potential in such situations. Cheers. Oh, and I mean there are other ways to mitigate the issue, just I don't necessarily like the potential implications. Like if we failed and I got matched up with team mates that could stay alive, I wouldn't have to put myself in as much danger and risk either, but ehhh... A lot of people I play with, some are often over apologetic when they die and need reviving, but I always try to reassure them it doesn't matter. On the flip side, though this is meant to be a really challenging hard mode, and its not like I don't play other games that are quite harsh about thinning out players at walls. So I don't really disagree with what you are saying, its also just one of those things that will always be a bit subjective and preference based. Like all people will have break points, that for others may be fun. Like if we get a Defence mod that has Random Radiation on allies, then another condition where your screen turns off and you need to use a second controller, and another where a snow storm occurs and all enemies are invisible... some might enjoy those added difficulties but others will just be frustrated. So I can sympathise with some, even if overall I really enjoyed and liked my experience (thus far at least).

Can sympathise with that stance. I can see why many would bounce off the mode. Personally, I quite liked it, but... I do have a few criticisms. I did one normal to unlock the Elite mode, and then the Elite, and in both cases I used all the modifiers. Out of the selection I got, I went with Kullervo, Acceltra Prime, Furis and Anku, and I consider that a pretty lucky pull, since Kullervo can be decently tanky, with Overguard gain, and I have Furis incarnon, and Anku Incarnon, with decent builds, and with the Anku I can get pretty high combo count to synergise with Kullervo. Furis Incarnon is also pretty strong. That being said... some of the modifiers just seem annoying. Like the energy drain one, is... People on my team kept dying, and I can't switch into my Operator like I usually do, so I often had to take my Warframe, right into a bunch of enemies, and revive whilst watching my energy and Overgaurd disappear, and then having to play super evasively from a distance to try and not die... Which makes the mission objective drag, and then more enemies die, and then I had to fight like 4 Void Angels.. Granted, was kind of fun, and overall I enjoyed it, but I wish the system allowed a bit more leeway as far as what you select, in order to get max rewards. Or some sort of reroll, or even just having a guaranteed Lohk Surge near entrance. I don't know exactly, something. Just for the week where I will get Limbo, Caliban, or Nyx (if there are a lot of Eximus/Overguard enemies), and get like... Stug, and.. I actually like a lot of "trash" weapons, so can't really think of a weapon to use as an example, but there are some, I'd feel bad about joining a PUB and feeling like I wasn't carrying my weight (but to be clear, I don't care/mind if other people match with me, with bad gear, I don't mind carrying). I also did an unnecessary, extra run, no more rewards, just to help out a friend with their run. Since I already got all my rewards, I went with Citrine and Boar (but keep all the other modifiers, since... why not) and that was really fun too, much easier, but we also got paired with a Dante and Trinity, so like... (friend was Dagath) so like... no one could die, we had a lot of energy and Furis Incarnon and Boar will wreck even Necramech Demos. I'll need to have a few more weeks experiences to draw from, since for myself, it may influence how I feel overall. Right now though I like them.

Hello there! I sympathise with your position. I can try and give tips to help out, but I generally believe the best tips and advice, require knowing exactly and specifically where one is struggling. Then giving advice addressing that. Like their might be areas that need more attention than others. For example, and you may already know this, in Amar's "Cloning phase", you can spot the real one using the mini map ability, and IIRC the real one also has its weapon, where the others do not. That being said... based on what you have said, one part you are struggling with is staying alive? Are you familiar with side strafing/circle strafing? You might be, but I'll explain it just in case. Basically in FPS shooters, and a few other genres, its a kind of skill people develop, where you move to the sides, whilst maintaining your camera/perspective at an enemy. Its basically both an evasion technique whilst also being able to keep up DPS. Then are you aware that rolling gives yourself damage resistance? I forget the exact number reduction, but its good to remember, and to try to keep rolling when you can, as doing so, will mean if you do get hit, you will take less damage. IIRC also applies to enemies damage over time effects. So if you are struggling with surviving, you might want to spend some time, forgetting about DPS, but just learning to move in such a way to minimise damage you take? Like combining circle strafing with sideways rolling, and getting a good instinct for cool down management on your healing. Which IIRC is also a cleanse, so its good to save it to use, in case you do get hit by Amar's fire attack, that does DOT. Oh also... did you already kill Boreal and Nira?

Colder weather interacting with Toxicity makes it go Viral. Badum tish. Little bit of Warframe humour there for ya. Enough about my love life though, and on to more serious matters. First, I am sorry that you had to experience those toxic players. In my experience? Such players are still very rare, as in the past, and as in the present. I did experience a few when I first started playing the game, and way back, and the consistency hasn't really changed, but for me personally, its still very very rare. A few caveats though, I often play solo, like 50% of the time, I play Warframe, I play solo, but I also play a lot of Warframe, so its entirely possible, that 50% of my play time, is still quite a lot of interactions with randoms. I am also pretty chill, and good at defusing tense situations, and sometimes all a rude or toxic player needs, is a gentle reminder that they are playing with real human peoples. Obviously not all people are so quick to drop being toxic, but many can, if shown a shred of empathy, and kindness. Its a bit like the old adage hurt people hurt. Hostile, rude people, often end up that way because of certain experiences, and a lot of people are sort of on autopilot, and that combination can lead to people being ruder and more hostile than they necessarily realise. They get irritated or annoyed easily, and lash out at random online anonymous people, because... why not? Does it really matter? Get over it, get tougher skin, etc, but usually such justifications reflect, well deeper issues that can't really be so easily addressed, by random anonymous online people, but sometimes you can snap people into the moment, and get them to question their current attitude and actions. Not that its your or anyones responsibility, to have to try and deal with a hostile aggressive rude person and show them kindness, warmth, but yeah. So I don't necessarily think much has changed. Maybe depends on the activities you do in game. Like PUG Eidolons traditionally has been known to be a bit more tense for many, and the potential for toxicity greater, than say a premade team doing Survival Endurance. Like some people doing Eidolons are trying to do 6x3 in one night, and had to wait for an hour for Night in Cetus, and some others are doing a Tridolon for the first time and struggling, and depending on the peoples personalities... Thing is, I liked taking people struggling and helping them, not that I was a speed runner, I could just solo decently fast, so liked to give people who were inexperienced help. A lot of them ended up being really grateful, because apparently some people weren't so nice, but it also helped that I already have all the Arcanes I wanted from that mode... Not that I would be mean without them, but I can see why some others might be on edge if they felt they were losing efficiency... Also, I used to solo Eidolons, because as a newbie, I was worried about people thinking I was dead weight, but thats also because I was new to games with people you play with (usually stuck to single player RPGS). The Gargoyle's Cry Event, Netracells, Deep Archimedia, SP Circuit, all have certain rewards and conditions, like Eidolons, which have potential to lead to well frustrated and annoyed players, and some people don't deal with that as well as others and that can spill over... Which to be clear, doesn't excuse such behaviour, but as someone who processes frustration really well to the point I don't really get bothered, I kind of feel for people who do get hostile. Though, I do get a little bothered when they are hostile to random people who definitely do not deserve it. Hope you have more pleasant experiences in the future OP. Also welcome to the Forums!

I don't necessarily disagree, but also don't necessarily agree, depending on the context and situation. I also think some people in general, just don't have any decent self awareness, and the ability to have good faith exchanges with others. As in a lot of interactions they have with others is antagonistic, either because they view people having different takes or perspectives as combative, and to be taken personally. Then usually the blame, responsibility also lays with the other person. As in they also can't really accept or consider other possibilities beyond whatever take, best benefits whatever best suits them, whether thats other people being dumb, corrupt, lazy, lacking common sense, trying to run or hide from criticism... and so on. Not that ist ever impossible for such claims to be accurate, just that people in general tend to be more complex and nuance, or at least the possibility is there. For example, is it possible that DE is some hive mind monolith entity that is extremely sensitive to criticism, and they lack the ability to separate a game they work on from their own ego, and identity and value as a human, and so when criticism arises, they need to downplay it, run away from it, and so merges it all together so its easier to hide from? Or... is DE a company with a bunch of different people, employees, with different specialities and tasks, and a few of them are tasked with taking feedback and sharing it internally, and maybe some of them requested mods, or just used tools themselves to merge threads they considered similar, so they and or others could better read all feedback, or more of it more conveniently shared in fewer places? Like a few mega threads. People with jobs acting in an official professional capacity, usually behave differently from random anonymous forum dwellers. Then even then, both types of those groups will have sub groups and different ways of communication and expressing themselves. If you disagree with me, then you actually have a secret ulterior motive, thats prompted by your constant need to sniff other peoples socks. Frankly, I didn't want to say this earlier, but its a bit weird. See, now my post can't have anyone disagree or challenge it, otherwise they will be revealing themselves as some freaky sock sniffer. That means, on the internet I win. Subtle rhetoric eh? Thing is, its not always obvious or simple as to why others do the things they do. There have been instances where a thread was merged, where i thought it wasn't right. For example, if someone made a low effort post, but made it earlier than someone who made a similar post, with more information and context... For example both referring a video external to the website, but person 2 actually giving links, time stamps, and a short summary, but the first person saying "That guy on Youtube said Wukong sucks lol", its a bit weird when the two are merged, and the better thread is folded into a thread that devolves into arguing... That being said, maybe when threads merge, the earlier thread automatically just becomes the main thread, and their are other such limitations. Either way I don't think DE is allergic to criticism, more forum people are way way more sensitive to criticism and people disagreeing with them, just obviously we have the nature of business trying to sell a product and the nature of consumers having preferences. Sometimes consumers take things more personally, because in a way thats a right afforded to them, its their time, energy and money, and the business wants some of, if not all of those things from them. It would be bad business if they were as sensitive and prone to bad faith arguments as your average forum user, and that usually reflects in decisions made as well (including why and when threads might be merged), excluding of course moderator discretion, but on top of that, moderators are probably given some sort of instruction and or preferences given over treating such situations. Like how many times have DE repeated they are still taking in feedback, and to please keep it coming. We'll probably get more than a few more tweaks and explanations in coming weeks. Again, another difference between working somewhere and something being your job, is often having to communicate with others, agree on details and specifics, consider your wording and phrasing... they can't just be fast and loose with any random thought and expression they have, like someone on a forum can with random posts. Not to imply that people don't have merits or thoughts with their forum posts, some are well considered, I specifically mean, we don't have to, if we don't want. They usually do. Again for good and obvious reasons, company versus consumer, but a lot of players easily fall into projecting behaviour on to each other let alone people who are usually just involved because its their job (or something they volunteer for).

I don't have any strong feelings on this one way or another but... I do find it a bit funny, in the sense that Dragon Keys are supposed to be more for you know, Orokin Vaults... as opposed to band aids for other issues other systems are having. Like can you imagine solo players having to carry a fifth key around in case that door shows up when they are looking for Corrupted Mods? Obviously they could just introduce a Key without tying it to a Vault/Door, but you know. I appreciate the creative thinking and idea though. Just found it funny too.

Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void. Empty and become wind. Dante, as his trapezius flexes and he floats off the ground, above all the haters. If you don't want to see a wizard leave, then stop poking around my wizards sleeve, as he flexes his flexor carpi radialis longus. Carpe diem, not my gains, he continues, and with Wrestlemania weekend here, Dante's pythons aren't just for show. But if you want a magic show, then go see Siegfried & Roy, but if you get attacked by a tiger, you'll want a muscle enhanced wizard and not just a skinny boy. Word.

The first day being 1%, but then additional days doubling, so second being an additional 2% and then 4% until you can guess where this is going with either buffs or nerfs. My main point is, being fine with stuff is fine, because thats me too, I am usually fine, and I don't tend to have strong negative or positive reactions to Warframe stuff, but I also know to be careful because different peoples objections and feedback and then how DE addresses and what they take from that, can inform and shape future decisions and ideas. My example is obviously dramatic and won't happen, but Warframe is also a long running game, that is dramatically different now than it use to be. Like weapons having gimmicks, used to be relatively rare, but then a few of them starting becoming more popular, and you started to have more synergy with them too, then now days we have Kuva, Tenet, Prisma, Incarnon weapons, many have unique gimmicks. Even weapons like Cedo and Epitaph have interesting alt fires. We have weapons like Trumna, which in a way is a bit of a proto Incarnon, in that you kill enemies to get charge to get a powerful alt fire, but you can''t just spam the alt fire (well unless you are Zephyr), but the now can shape the future. Like DE will probably be extra careful when releasing the next few Warframes, and making sure they don't have to make too many changes after 5 days. Even if someone is fine with something, we want to be careful in that we still have preferences and likes/dislikes, and we want DE to consider that too. Hope that clarifies, cheers!

Yeah I prefer having to do Ropalolyst 60 times, and fighting Tyl Regor 120 times, and 2 years of ESO. People often forget that such systems work, to help out the extreme outliers that can happen to people, because thats just the way RNG and statistics work. I actually personally got Khora and Equinox really fast and without burning out, was pleasant grind, but... I know and acknowledge some people had far more bad luck, and some people will have horror stories, which again, its how RNG and statistics just are. You will have extreme outliers. People need to be aware not to take their own personal experience for granted. That being said, such systems aren't perfect either, its a balancing act. I thought Mirror Defence and the pity system for Citrine was fine... for getting Citrine... but everything else, especially the Arcanes? Ehhh... Anyway, this is the better solution, but ideally, some of the values and time involved could be improved depending on other factors (for example Arcane rerolling system, somewhat offsets some of the issues, but not completely). Dante pity system, seems rather time effective. Of course also may depend on a persons preferences and enjoyment around Disruption. Or their effectiveness at it. Since Disruption is one of those missions you can get the required currency quite fast if you are really fast at the SP version (as opposed to Mirror Defence which had less ways to speed up).

I don't mean this as a call out or accusation or anything, but didn't you make a thread the other day saying that the nerfs were fine? Or was it specifically as you said, you read the notes, but in practice the experience was different? Anyway I sympathise. I was going to reply to your other thread before it got merged and I couldn't find it, but my reply was going to disagree a little. Since I don't think the framing of "its fine" is necessarily the best for such situations. If all Warframes were nerfed (or buffed) by 1%, that would also be fine, since its "only 1%", but if they did this every day, and increased to 2%... You could argue, well, its still only 2%, not that big a buff or nerf, its fine. It really would be fine, but also things can be fine, but warrant criticism and or discussion, so on. I say this as someone who is like, fine with basically everything, with most Warframe things, to the point I would probably wake up one day, and realise Warframes have no powers, can't bullet jump, and constantly die in basic missions, and still probably consider it fine, if my fav guns still worked the same. So this is as much of a reminder to myself to be careful of the "its fine" idea. I personally think more time needs to pass before such big changes. I personally like how fast and ready to implement changes DE is, but also... like maybe wait a few weeks too, get more feedback from more sources. I think I probably play Warframe too much, but even I only had 2 days of D A N T E, just because I couldn't earn him on the first day, and I waited 3-4 days for him to build... What about Warframe players who only play in the weekends and stuff? Anyway, ironically I think Lavos is fine, because many people don't like the "hassle" of mixing his elements. I love Lavos, I don't really have a main, but Nidus, Mag, and Lavos (and Citrine) are probably my most played of the last two years. I think Lavos is very powerful, and slept on, but I also kind of like that he is slept on, because I wouldn't want him to be excessively popular and thus require balancing.

Great write up. I don't really disagree with any of the points you went through, and it wasn't really articulated in that sort of way anyway, as you were explaining general principals, ideas and so on. I also know you made a relatively longer post as well, and thus intentionally do not want to expand on certain ideas or concepts, for various reasons, but I did want to add some other ideas to the mix, and expand on a few. For example, the emotional reaction, is par for course, but also complicated in that emotional and ego reactions, can often led to escalating conflict and tension. This is just generally a large part of humanity, that to a certain extent is ingrained in most of us, and can be challenged and competed with on an individual level and larger level. Its to do with intuition, pattern seeking, overcompensation etc, on biological levels that also influence and play out in interesting ways sociologically. In recent times, its been talked about in social media and technology as far as how certain social media platforms, often lean into the idea of engagement, and thus how they manage recommended content, as well as what content often gets more attention. Like a social media platform doesn't necessarily want a user who is chill, calm, patient and necessarily happy and healthy, if they can instead have a user who is emotional, invested, engaging in the platform much more, spending time and money much more. I personally think this is important to note and draw attention to, because... a lot of emotional reactions, often don't realise that their emotional reactions often contribute to the problems and issues they are having an emotional reaction to. Its a relative, nuanced issue. As many often underestimate and downplay their own emotional reactions, but like to emphasis and over exaggerate others emotional reactions, especially those that have different views, takes, opinions, preferences and so on. This is often why we get backlash to backlash to backlash. Its also relative and nuanced in the sense, emotional reactions aren't inherently bad or anything, its about context. Emotions often by definition, are usually more about short term candid expressions/feelings, as opposed to accurate long term appraisals of a situation. In many instances the ability to have strong emotions is great, like eliciting it from art, intimacy with loved ones, blunt conversations with friends, where you can rant and vent about stuff that might not really matter. In many situations it can be a hindrance though. Like if you need to be calm and collected when performing surgery, or analysing scientific data, and other situations where you want more neutral, observant, considered skills to be applied. How is this relevant to situations like this? Well... we can have situations where many of the initial reactions to Dante or anything really, will be of a certain nature, and people in positions where strong engagement is tied to their livelihood, may see incentive in hyperbole and exaggeration, whether authentic or otherwise... You get an initial wave of emotion and "emotion" (as in people who may not actually be emotional, but communicate as such), or reactions that are some mix of emotion, ego, and mixed communication that seems more subjective based. Which again, isn't always inherently a bad thing outright, it just depends. Like another complicating factor in such situations, are individuals, or groups, or parties that involved in such situations, but prioritise or are incentivised in some way, by and in more objective, considered and accurate conclusions, or framing. For example, as already mentioned, anybody who sees more financial success from creating content around engagement. DE as a business as well, they already know and understand that many of their consumers and fans, will be generally more emotional, and perhaps not as skilled in communicating that frustration well, as well as understanding the nature of short term emotional engagement and longer term health and long term engagement (which OP's post goes into). Its a different kind of interaction from an emotional person disagreeing or being in conflict with another emotional person. Which is something you often see in Forums. Additionally, feedback and reactions, often come in waves, but often with strong emotional reactions, you often get escalation... and this is often when takes, opinions, perceptions start to get more warped, more hyperbolic and more extreme... To my subjective perception, the initial early wave of reactions and buzz around Dante was that he was "OP" and "so powerful he has to be nerfed" or "so powerful he will be nerfed, obviously" and some of that can be more nuanced, like the latter doesn't necessarily want a nerf, but may believe it will happen. If I had to randomly guess, I think DE started to get that feedback and look to make changes based on that, Forums, and even some content creators etc, but then the "second wave" of reactions, including many counter reactions, was much much larger than what they anticipated, which also unfortunately happened to coincide with their changes/nerfs... Which seemed to have an amplifying effect. Even without the long term game development philosophy/game design aspects, its a tricky issue to try to solve, because ideally, when it comes to the listening and appeasing aspect of creating a product... you have a situation where people aren't really accurately, carefully, clarifying what they want, you just have a lot of emotional, angry shouting heads, talking in hyperbole, and exaggeration. Which isn't the first time, and won't be the last. It actually makes it kind of hard to implement that sort of feedback. Then like a lot of emotionally driven people, feel extremely validated when they feel surrounded by similar sentiment, views and people. Then there are ways for them to reconcile that sense, even when they are in a minority. Essentially for many, there aren't any obvious incentives for them to think more critically or neutrally or with an awareness they are not game developers. Alternatively, games developers often also understand and recognise this and have to try and work around this, and that can be tricky. Since not only do you have to balance the actual game (in ways OP went into), but balance player expectations and feedback as well... Then one last idea I would like to touch on as well, is because DE listens to feedback, and implements it, it creates additional context, because its not like Dante has been out for a few weeks, these changes have come a few days after. So why was Dante released as they were? So now you have the idea or perception of DE taking a bit of early feedback from the fanbase, and that early feedback was "way too strong, needs to be nerfed", but how accurate is that to more peoples experience and opinions? So its not just a matter of "Are DE wrong for nerfing this?" but also "Are DE wrong for listening to some of that fanbase, and implementing a sudden change just 5 days after they thought he was in an acceptable place" which is also effectively "Are DE wrong? Well DE thinks they are wrong, because they have already changed the Warframe just 5 days later" and or "How accurate is some of the feedback given", and then you know additional issues, like more waves. Hypotheticals around what the actual majority view is, whether that would change in a few months with or without changes. Forum user dynamics versus a larger player base that is much larger and often with different perspectives... My totally random speculation, is that DE knew that Dante would be a decent bit more powerful than most Warframes, but not necessarily in an extreme way. Then they justified it, because... Dante's gameplay loop is more intensive than quite a few Warframes as well. Which would probably mean, a lot of players might not vibe with them, because consider Warframes like Lavos, and having to imbue elements, versus Warframes like Revenant where you can just press one button. Dante having to write pages, and having that whole gimmick, whilst still very simple to some, may not be worth it to many, so... but then I think a lot of early feedback, were that his mechanics weren't actually that much of an issue to many, and so that power was immediately noticeable and "easy" to achieve, and so they may have been a little too lenient with their relative power... but then the second bigger wave of feedback threw them off. Which kind of makes me feel bad for them, because on release this seemed to be one of the most well received updates with little to no drama or controversies except maybe some lingering Eclipse issues... I do think they made changes to Dante way too early regardless. Many people didn't even get to try him out yet, and early feedback can often lack nuance until its sifted and filtered and more voices and opinions are shared, long enough for counter ideas and arguments to also be introduced. For example the idea of some Warframes on release being more powerful in perception than others (as opposed to being a bit underwhelming or whelming). Either way great post, I appreciate you wrote it.

I actually find base Lavos alright and interesting. That being said, I also would quite like a new Deluxe that deviates from that style and design a lot as well. Something with a different aesthetic. Something a bit more refined, sleek and suave. If I had the option to envision what my own personal ideal Deluxe Lavos skin would be... It would be to go sort of chemistry science lab technician with clean crisp textures and lines on a long lab jacket. The vials in his design would be sleeker and thinner and more numerous. Almost like arm bands, thigh bands, and of course on his shoulders and hips, like his general designs. More grand though obviously with metal features and designs, like... not a modern day lab chemist in a lab coat, but like an Orokin equivalent. Still want the boost and gloves, and coat, but those would be a little sleeker and cleaner, and as for the helmet. Neo Sci Fi Lab Punk or something. Oh and the snakes should have little glasses, thats really important.

Here is my own feedback. i haven't actually gotten to play Dante that much. I did play update on release day, but only for a bit. Wasn't until a day later I could really play, and enjoy the new Disruption mode. Which I very much enjoyed. The new Disruption mode and general changes are very welcome and appreciated. I foresee myself playing it regularly just for fun. Which I also found ironic, because this felt like one of the fastest farming for a Warframe in a while, I got two Dante part BP's and enough currency to start building them after an hour of playing. Then it took around 3 days a bit to build, and I was fine just waiting instead of rushing. Was very much enjoying the rest of the update in the mean time, especially the new Augments, which are some of the best. My main point is I have only really played Dante for around 2 days, and he was really really fun. Powerful? I think so, usually when I get a new Warframe, I like to take them into a Steel Path mission, just for fun, to see how they perform under levelled, no Forma (do pop in a Reactor though). Once Dante's abilities were unlocked, I did feel pretty strong. They do feel relatively more powerful than a lot of other Warfames I play, but and again, only played and tested for 2 days, not excessively so, and I do think you need to be more active and engaged with Dante's abilities to get that performance. Personally, I think different Warframes are great by having different strengths/weaknesses, not just from a game play effectiveness sense, but a game play style and personality sense... Like Octavia is extremely strong/powerful, but her gameplay loop is. a little... repetitive, arguably boring for many. Which is you know subjective, and obviously to those that main Octavia she isn't boring, but thats sort of what I mean. Lavos for example, I like a lot, and think he is very powerful, but it also requires mixing elements, and so he is pretty engaging to me. Arguably many find him boring/annoying though. Dante in my limited experience, felt powerful, but in an engaging way, that required effort. Like a lot of comparisons are being made, Revenant? Really powerful, but mostly used and perceived that way because of his ability to tank and not die. Specifically it could be said, how easy and convenient that immortality is. Every Warframe can be made to be nigh immortal with enough parkour finesses, game knowledge and mechanical skill, but if you want a fast, easy, simple route, Revenant is strong there. Likewise many people are mentioning Saryn. Extremely high DPS output, but... she is decently squishy as well, relatively speaking. For many it sort of balances her out. Like I would assume that Revenant has high pick rates in Archon Hunts and Netracells, than Saryn, because more people care more about not dying and losing rewards than killing lots of enemies fast, with Saryn. Dante felt like a fun mix, of power in abilities and defence, but in neither extreme and with some more engagement due to the casting aspect of his kit. Again though, I only got to play him for about 2 days. Didn't get to do a Netracell with him, or Archon Hunt or many team missions... So I don't actually think I am in a good position to really gauge whether I think he needed a nerf, or to form strong opinions... Do feel a little negative on hearing about the nerfs, maybe once I get hands on I might feel different? I guess a part of me is also curious as to why more time wasn't allowed to pass, because like... I play Warframe a lot, and I only got around 2 days to use him, I imagine there must be many many people whose Dante is still building and or not even farmed yet...?!? Also we just got another hard mode added to the game via Deep Archimedia... Which is really interesting, and I know there is an RNG element involved with choices around Warframes to use, but having another strong Warframe to the roster, in theory sounded pretty good. The same way I would often see a lot more Revenants in Archon Hunts (even though I am not the biggest fan of that Warframe). I always like to remind myself I don't have access to the same numbers and data that game developers do when it comes to making decisions around balance, but and so just going off my own basic experiences, which were also limited by only two days of playing and testing... well I guess I wish I had more time with pre change Dante, and I thought he was really fun, decently powerful, but not in bad or negative way in regards to other Warframes. In a way that felt earned. Also saying that in the context of someone who has enjoyed Dagath, Qorvex, Citrine, Kullervo (Voruna was okay), so its not like I want every Warframe to try and match Dante either... just like I wouldn't want Saryn or Revenant nerfed either. I am also quite fond of Nyx for example... TL;DR version, do sorta wish the nerfs were reverted a bit. To what extent? I guess I don't really know, since I didn't actually get to test them out that much. I don't even have a Forma in them, because I was still not sure how I should build him. I still imagine he could be fun regardless, but there are also a lot of fun Warframes I don't really end up using either. Thanks for taking in all our feedback!

No face tho'.

Yeah I get it, but a lot of people have conflicting and competing takes and attitudes on the matter, even in this thread. For me, and how i play games, well, thats just it, they are games. I have also naturally been good at games, so in co-op games I like to help people, even if they seem to struggle. Its no issue to carry or assist them. Many other people though, prefer optimal/speed with their team mates. Something something leeching, being a freeloader etc I might have a different take but opinions/preferences and all that. In Eidolons specifically, I would rather just revive my team mates when/if I can, and have them save their revives till really necessarily (like if three people die at the same time, I revive one, starting reviving the second, then first dies again, and the 3rd guy is 200 meters away or something), but I don't get into that situation too often.

Now that I have actually played him, I can give a more specific take than my prior. I do think he is pretty strong, relative to most other Warframes, in general... but I also think he is very very fun, and actually does a good job, in the sense that, despite having a few different abilities, I do enjoy using and rotating through them. I mean a lot of this subjectively, but they do feel like a mix between Equinox and Lavos. Except the way I personally play Equinox, is very narrow, only using two abilities, because aside from potential testing, fun etc I just find... most of the other abilities not really... necessary or fun. Lavos on the other hand, I do personally enjoying mixing elements and using on different abilities, but also often use him with a good gun and not as a pure caster. I am also very aware that many many aren't fans of Lavos, and I am in a minority over how much I enjoy using them. Dante on the other hand, feels like. amore successful combo of the two. There is incentive to use some of your abilities more, and you can get rewarded with various effects. I should clarify I have only been playing solo so far, and some of the issues people have been talking about have been team play issues? I also personally think, its okay if some Warframes are "more powerful" than others, because thats just going to happen naturally. Its hard to avoid given the way Warframe works with different mission types, tools, tool synergy, progression etc. So in that sense, I personally hold to the idea, that the more interesting and unique tools, are okay being relatively more powerful than peers. Like, in a general simple way. Like an Opticor should be more powerful than say a Karak, since one is a futuristic charge laser that fires a cool big beam, the other is a fairly conventional gun that resembles many guns, even in modern times. It has fast fire rate and you can spray a room with it. I'd rather Dante be meta over say Wukong or Revenant. Not that I want those Warframes to be bad (since they aren't), and I specifically chose them as examples, because they are popular. Often things are popular for certain reasons. Revenant for example, is just really really hard to kill, and so you can be a bit lazier and just not care about trying to hard with him, especially in content like Netracells/Archons where death is punishing. Wukong was popular because you were also hard to kill, had amazing mobility and a perma AI partner... So I kind of like Warframes like Dante being where he is power wise. (Granted, I could see people just spamming certain abilities, but eh, thats not uncommon with many other Warframes). Will play some more and play in some team PUBS. At the moment though, eh, hope he isn't nerfed, or if he is, its minimal. I'd probably still enjoy him regardless, but I enjoy like 40 of the current roster.

I haven't had the worst of luck when playing with randoms. More than half the time, everything goes smoothly and is a chill friendly experience, but I have had a few instances where one or two players were just outside killing enemies. Not even doing anything like running for Voca, which, ideally they wouldn't do that in the red circle phase and or diverting enemy aggro, either but... So I just tend to solo Netracells. Catch up on some podcasts, don't have to worry about enemies getting aggro-ed elsewhere. I also generally do spend a lot of Warframe time in solo anyway... Then when I do the occasional PUB its fine, but yeah. I empathise with those who have had bad experiences.