(PSN)slightconfuzzled

In the Youtube version of the Dev Stream, the time stamp is around 1:14:50. if that helps. I think I linked it as well, but might not work. Short summary, there is going to be a setting that will allow autofire, that can be toggled. There will also be a mod for people so that certain weapon types, will specifically be more traditional, but with some added buffs to compensate. Sybaris for example. I may be inaccurate in my summarisation though, so still better to check the Dev Stream.

These are known as Dark Verse Dante's. Dante's who only practice the Dark Arts, and shy away from the Light. Much like the Dark Lords of Arda, or the Sith. They believe in absolutes, like DPS, and principals like protection are lost and discarded. Beware of such Dante's, as they bring ruin, corruption... Well unless you are perhaps interested in being a Dark Verse Dante yourself... Did you ever hear the tragedy of Dark Verse Dante the Knowledgable? No? I thought not, It's not a story the Lotus would tell you...

Personally I like a lot of some the upcoming changes and the philosophy behind them. Will still need to wait and see for some of them, but yeah. I also respectfully disagree with some of the counter points. Not all of them, but some, for example some replies have, to paraphrase "armour wasn't that bad, since its so easily stripped", and sure... Like if you are use to playing at level cap, and you have dedicated tools, to get rid of armour, and you have the knowledge and understanding, and you have constructed a kit and build to handle those missions, then yes... it wasn't that bad. It can also feel satisfying to play at that level but constructing the right solutions to problems, but it overlooks that some other may prefer/like other tools and wish they might be more effective in different context. Personally, not an issue for me, because my play style is that I can flex and so yeah I usually combine my general preferences with the right tools I know are effective/efficient for situations I find myself in, whether thats level cap Grineer or SP Circuit or star chart Relics. That being said, clearly a lot of peoples favourite gear, like Warframes without armour strips, certain weapons, can be a bit hindered, and whilst thats just generally going to happen anyway (meta picks and off meta), it can be nice if/when changes occur to allow broader viability, in such contexts, like with the armour change, or allowing certain elements potentially having more utility/justification, even if there are still some obvious selection possibilities (for those that want to chase the meta).

Okay Dev Stream is over! RIP Tenet Exergis, Tenet Opticor, Tenet Lanka, Kuva Argonak, Kuva Buzlok, Kuva Stug, Kuva Javlok, Tenet Convectrix dreams. Am content and satisfied with Tenet Glaxion and Kuva Sobek. Will be interesting to see Tenet Glaxion especially with some of the changes coming with Cold, and to see how well the weapon will stack up compared to the Ignis Wraith as far as elemental beam weapons. Kuva Sobek, the big question will be if it can use Acid Shells, but I hope so, since I know its broken with Saryn, but I don't think that should dictate the role of the augment considering you know, all other Warframes. So unless the weapon is hoping to be really really strong, like i viewed Kuva Hek as being extremely strong, I hope the augment is supported by the new variant. Then again if its especially strong without it, ehh... Just feels nice to have another strong Kuva shotgun (well hopefully).

Congrats. They addressed this in the Devstream, and the solution sounds pretty interesting. and comprehensive. With even some benefits for those of us (like myself) who didn't really have a personal need for such features.

Cheers for posting.

Kuva Chakkhurr is an excellent and beautiful weapon, that I really like, even if I don't often regularly talk about. Its one of the weapons i enjoy most in casual chill solo sessions, because of some of its limitations, which are actually positives for me. The weapon did frustrate me a little initially, when I used it. Because of its slight AOE mechanic. I could shoot at a small cluster of enemies from a distance, and they would all just be deleted and die, either right away or with bleed procs... However sometimes, in a very similar situation, I would shoot at an enemies head, with a cluster of enemies near them and... only one enemy would be hit. Which is also fine, just if earlier your experience was radically different... So it felt very inconsistent to me. That being said, it was also the kind of weapon, where repeated use, and practice, could sort of see more consistency, and then also... when you know and expect the weapon to be a bit inconsistent, then you can stop being as frustrated when it behaves inconsistently in a "predictable" way. Then it may even become a feature of the gun. So I started to use it as more of a long range sniper, where if some enemies survived, I would line up another shot. Then at closer ranges, it almost becomes like a short range shotgun of sorts. Either wave, its one of my most fav Warframe weapons, That I don't really talk about (where as I regularly talk about my love for the Daikyu, Cedo, Sybaris, Veldt etc). Am glad you and others also enjoy it.

My apologies, like I was explaining to @UnstarPrime several parts of my post were rhetorical, but I likewise appreciate the explanation. Thank you. For additional clarity if needed, you are both probably somewhat aware that I can make longer and larger posts. Usually one reason my posts can get a bit lengthy, is because I personally like to provide additional context for my reasoning and points. Like what I am about to do right now. That being said, I do actually try to be concise a fair bit, because I am aware that not everyone is a fan of thread discussions having walls of text. I personally don't mind, and quite like seeing people write a lot, but still. So sometimes I rely more on implicit contextual framing, rhetorical framing, and so on. Forgive my assumption if otherwise, and it's intended as a compliment to both yourself SneakyErvin, and yourself UnstarPrime, but you both seem older than teenagers. I assume as much because of the types and depth of knowledge you both can impart with your messages here and there, as well as references you may make here and there. I assume you also probably generally know a lot about well, a lot. As do I. A few weeks back, UnstarPrime made a lovely and relatively in depth delve into the relatively short history behind terminology like P2W, its original usages and application, how and why some of the original variables and context have or can change, and its influence and affect on how people may apply the term. Great read especially for anyone interested in etymology. I have also made similar breakdowns to that terminology, and similar a few times in the past as well, as I have terms like whale as well. (I am too lazy to try and remember the exact dates of when I made such posts, but I think it would have been around 2021 or maybe when Regal Aya started being a talking point. They are somewhere in my forum history, but i have a lot of posts so.) For a lot of older folk, a lot of video game terminology is actually younger than we are. We may have been around when they were originally used/formed, so its a lot easier to track and know the development of them, as opposed to you know, many other words and concepts that are centuries old. Like at the moment if you were to try to track the usage of the term whale in regards to the video gaming application, you'll probably run into a bunch of different sources from the last decade "reporting" how the term is borrowed from... online gambling websites, or linking to them. Which to anyone a bit older or more familiar with the term, is a bit silly, because whales as a concept definitely existed prior. IIRC even some large Hollywood movies like Snake Eyes (the Nicolas Cage, Brian De Palma one from the 90's) touched on whales aka high rollers, far before online gambling was popularised, but a lot of online sources neglect that. Then it's not like that movie invented the term either, and IIRC the slang term can be referenced as far back as the late 80's in Casinos. With some slight variation on the price meaning, like the idea most people are minnows, small fish, as far as spending habits, whales then obviously... or to some that whales visiting is great because it means the casino will be eating good for weeks (off the whale, since when biological whales die, the ecosystem they are in, gets a boost as far as feeding opportunity). Then whales in more figurative senses to do with impressive size, have naturally existed in various ways for longer. Oh and also to be super clear, when I talk about above and mention it? I don't actually know or believe whether you both or others already know (or don't know) and are familiar with the history, context or meaning. I write all that to give context to other points I might make. Since it wouldn't surprise me, if you both, and several others already knew everything I wrote above, from whales being included in various movies, from its uses in Casinos in the 80's and 90s. For all I know, someone reading this might have been a Casino Host from Las Vegas in the late 80's, or a video game developer in 2005 when P2W was starting to see early usage. So my question, to elaborate and clarify, was in this interview, host Wailin Wong, who I am unfamiliar with, had this "And that revenue comes from just a few players. In Warframe's case, only about 10% of Warframe's players pay anything at all. In the gaming community, the top spenders are called whales. They sustain this large ongoing production team, which can be expensive. Jason Schreier is a reporter on gaming at Bloomberg News." See by some peoples criteria of a whale, especially if we go back to its more original and regular usage in real life casinos, whales were a pretty big deal. Casinos would figuratively and perhaps even literally roll out the red carpets for them. Treat them especially well, lavish attention and customer service, freebies, so on. Video games industry as a whole, isn't something I pay as much attention to anymore, nor am I as well researched or knowledgeable in, well, relatively speaking, as compared to my past. For one, its a lot larger and broader than it use to be. Having a light interest is going to be insufficient. That being said, it doesn't surprise me, when I hear ideas or accusations of certain games or certain developers or publishers, being accused of being "whale bait" or encouraging or incentivising their monetisation models, to be as attractive and desirable to "whales" even if potentially it may clash with other types of customers. In a sort of balancing act. Which isn't new, its been a thing in business and advertising for ages. There is economic/financial disparity, some people can afford a little, some can afford a lot, having ways to attract and get both types to buy from you... I obviously can't go into the complexities, nuance, ethics involved. However there is something else interesting and important to keep in mind. Warframe launched in 2012/2013, a few years (even if it was conceived a lot earlier) after the popularisation and surge in platforms/models such as Kickstarter. Crowdfunded, crowd sourced projects, pledging, so on. The two general ideas aren't necessarily at conflict or odds or mutually exclusive, but they can be competitive. Some crowd funded, crowd sourced projects, have a really low barrier to entry as far as contributing, and some may even have an even lower/non existent barrier to participation. Like you are both probably familiar with Patreon as well? That there are free options for some people's Patreon. Since there can also be the idea of tiers. Like I was a backer for Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night, way back when. Lower tier, I was/am still a bit skeptical of some of the more abstract issues around such methods, because of possible long term consequences... Bloodstained itself was great though. Plus you know, you didn't have to be a backer to be able to eventually purchase the game. It gets a little nuanced, because of how and why some people are motivated and how that can differ. Many people are willing to support a project, but not necessarily so they personally can get exclusive or better treatment (like a whale in a real casino might come to expect), many may actually prefer and desire, that even if they pledging a higher amount than others, that the actual barrier to participating and enjoying the project or product is non existent. Or potentially a "Tier 4, $300 Ultra Premium Pledge Member", may be on the view, that whatever they can get access to, as far as the project and product, is as easily or generally available to the minimum low tier 1 entry pledges member who just donated $1. Of course there are also some people who want to be treated like casino whales too, exclusively treats and privileges and better than normal treatment and services, so this is something contextual, with products and projects that can be emphasised or deemphasised, incentivised or not incentivised so on. Just speaking personally, when I spend money on a Prime Access Accessories? For myself, its purely about keeping the lights on at DE, and I would not only be fine with, I would prefer if such cosmetics were made more readily accessible and available cheaper for others. I am not purchasing them for exclusivity or to stand out. Personally I would rather anyone and everyone be able to participate in the product/project, with no barrier to entry. Like a tier system is fine, like temporary incentives, for those that are being more supportive. Its like if you pledge or support someone on Twitch or Youtube, to support the creator, but you still want all their content to ultimately be accessible for free. So... Some of these ideas can therefore conflict, because in my mind and to my perception, Warframe doesn't actually try to attract and appeal to "whales" to the detriment of everyone else. I wouldn't say that DE/Warframe is anti whale, or discourages them. I am sure they would be happy to get any financial support/contributions, but overall, generally speaking, I don't think they actually preplan monetisation models or strategies around attracting whales. Generally. I say this for a few reasons, like obviously being FTP, and how peoples time and engagement can be valuable in other indirect ways, how and why they use tier systems, and a wider range of options around pricing, have discounts, have trading within the game. Over time their can be other types of discounts or with time cheaper options (Like comparing a brand new Prime Access to prices years later on the unvaulting). Like generally, DE seems like the type, where the entry level/barrier to participating is non existent. Stuff returns and rotates, and usually often gets easier and more accessible to get. That being said... occasionally Warframe and DE do stuff that does actually seem like whale baiting/incentivising. Heirlooms for example. It can be argued that if you like having really cool skins for some of your favourite Warframes, you now definitely need to have near $100 ready to spend each year potentially. Otherwise you "miss out permanently". Doesn't matter if you already spent $100 on the game that year, on a Prime Access that will still eventually be available... just spend $200 that year. Doesn't matter if you only want the skins and not everything else, or you might not be able to spend that much right then... or that you might have brought $100 worth of Platinum earlier, and wish you could buy them with Platinum... You got 3 months to cough up that money, to get special treatment. To myself, that could be argued to be incentivising whale like behaviour. Which I also actually saw a few times as counter arguments to some peoples issues, with some people just saying "Well I am sorry you are poor and can't afford the skins, LOL, but I like them and I can afford them, so too bad for you". So lets go back to what Wailin Wong said, which to me, was a little odd and interesting to me. "And that revenue comes from just a few players. In Warframe's case, only about 10% of Warframe's players pay anything at all. In the gaming community, the top spenders are called whales. They sustain this large ongoing production team, which can be expensive." Its a little odd, because I am not exactly sure if they are implying that 10% of Warframe players are whales, or that she was just generally covering a few different ideas right after each other, because they can overlap and are generally related. (Though I suspect the latter). Whales contribute to supporting/paying for the game. However as delved into above, whales can (and usually) have a certain connotation around relative excess. Someone spending more than a $1000 dollars a year, in Warframe, is more whale like, than someone spending around $100 a year, or even $20 a year. Even though there can be subjective criteria and interpretation about "whale" like behaviour and meaning. Though maybe Wailin Wong might also agree with my assertion/criteria as well, because its not like they said anything explicitly otherwise. Then ultimately I also personally care more about what Rebecca and Steve (and other DE people in high positions), attitudes, ideas and views around such ideas would be. In regards to their monetisation strategies and plans. About whether they are trying to rely more on the idea overall "crowdfunding", every small contribution is important, even just your time and engagement is appreciated, and we want everyone to be able to participate in the project and product (including all the cool things, granted you may have to chip in for that, but it will always be available to you, so take your time, don't rush), OR... we view whales as integral to our future monetisation plans, and we need to incentivise and attract them, with limited time exclusives, and other people should learn to be okay with that, since its that 10% that are supporting and paying for the game. Since that latter may be true, but also as someone in that 10%... I am only contributing money to DE because I view them having the former approach, not the latter. Which I know some consumers and fans can sometimes struggle in comprehending, but they as developers I expect will know, and understand with nuance a bit better. So when I ask, am I a whale? Its rhetorical, unless well you are Wailin Wong, DE Reb, DE Steve, and with regards to why and how people are motivated and incentivised to spend money on the game, how much money, and why and how there can be different opposing reasons and motivations (and conflict and competition there), regardless of terminology. Its also still a bit rhetorical to them as well, since I am ultimately questioning them about assumptions I have in regards to how they view their product or project, and barriers to participating, and strategies in regards to the general player base and those that spend money, and how much money and why do some versus others. I don't personally consider myself a whale, and I am not anti Whale either, because I think they have a place in the eco system, but I am very weary and critical of strategies that prioritise whales at the expense of other players, especially in FTP models, especially in Warframe specifically. Then just speaking as someone who has spent a few hundreds over the years, just speaking to myself, its strictly been to support and have access to cool things, however strictly and specifically, not limited, or exclusive access. I strongly desire others to have opportunity for such items, too. I am the middle tier person who wants the project to succeed but also wants everyone to have access to it as well, even those that maybe can't support it right now with money (but do with time and engagement). Hope that explains my thought process and rhetoric (also why my original post was attempting to be concise lol) Good day to you both (and well anyone else who read everything I wrote, but I don't imagine that's many. I appreciate it none the less.).

Oh. I appreciate your reply, and am grateful you took the time to entertain my questions. Some of them were more a tad on the rhetorical side as sort of lead ins to others, and some were on the more literal and direct. Regardless I still enjoy discussions around this subject, linguistics and peoples takes around language, perception and communication. My purposes or question in regards to whales is more in regards to what Rebecca or DE would potentially consider (well perhaps also, and specifically Wailin Wong, as well, since they invoked the terminology), because of how it could inform or frame such discussions. I personally don't care in the context of myself, because thats not how I personally understand or frame language in regards to myself (or others), even with or without stigma, since I am big on context and interpretation. So to clarify, I am curious as to whether Wailin Wong considers the 10% of Warframe players that pay whales, or whether she would consider a percentage of that 10%, like hypothetically the percentage of them that has spent over $100.00 per year, or up to $500 total, or some higher cash amount. Hence tying back to my original question.(If she considers the entire 10%, then in her eyes I would be a whale, even if I might not fit some of the aforementioned thresholds, but then technically that might mean in her eyes, some people who have only spent $20 in 8 years a whale as well. Which just seems unusual to me. Not necessarily in a judgement way, just as far as framing. Like i would probably assume any amount of real currency too, but just that would lead to more questions, because there are some pretty cheap bundles/packs that can be brought for like around $10, and then some one time purchases can be nearer to $100. If the 10% of players is including any payment, then it would be even more interesting breaking down the percentages within. Perhaps its a very very small percentage that could be say, doing over or around 50% of Warframes business in that specific sense. So also by Walin Wong's usage, a neutral idea. Like if I had to make assumptions, I would probably assume that Reb or Steve don't actually strategise around trying to appeal to whales. They might come and dine n the product, but I assume, they'd probably be more keen on more accessible bundles, and ideally even if they are away a lot of players aren't paying, those that are, might feel pretty satisfied with one off or irregular rare purchases (I can clarify if that sounds a bit vague). Hope that makes sense, but I appreciate your sentiment (about ones perception of negative ables and concern for them) and agree with it. Oh and great recommendation, much thanks. I am actually already very familiar with Philosophy Tube/Abigail, from their very first videos from about... Well I think around a decade now. How time flies, but it warms me (and makes sense that you would also be familiar and appreciate their channel enough to recommend it as well, given your thoughtful posts as well. Plus you were right, it is right up my alley hehe) Much thanks and appreciation once again. (Also feel free to PM me any other Youtube suggestions, because you probably have great taste).

I would try not pay too much attention to anyone who claims its easy in the sense that they think all people should find it easy. It might be relatively easy, in the same way that a trained professional gymnast can do backflips casually and easy, but that doesn't mean the general population necessarily can. For example, if I had tour picks, I would find it pretty easy, because I have all that gear, Styanax is really strong (especially against the Assassination boss), you will get Overguard, you can get energy regain,(not just for yourself but your team too, so you could effectively hard carry) and thus you can spam your armour strip and 4 for DPS. Which basically removes a lot of the modifiers that would potentially cause issues. Plus the Atomos Incarnon is really strong. Obviously though as you mentioned, you don't have Styanax and your Atomos Incarnon is still a work in progress. That and I'd personally be a bit weary about taking Gyre, just because my Gyre build is a bit squishy, and has a negative energy build on top of the modifiers that would potentially make it even more tense. With a strong Atomos Incarnon build, I would feel a bit more confident, but only for the none Assassination missions. The reason why some might say its easy, usually will carry with the idea, that like... Well let me put it this way, having Galvanised Mods, maxed out Arcanes, your Helminth options unlocked, your selection of most Warframes, your Incarnons available. That will make things a lot easier. Still possible without all that, but it means you will have to compensate in other ways. Like you know rolling gives a slight damage resistance right? Do you have really good parkour and evasion skills? If you do, you can survive a lot better than if you don't. All games tend to have such in game skill factors that can help compensate for other variables, like types of gear, defence, but some of that also isn't the easiest to pass on in text. Like I can't necessarily just tell you to be better at parkour/evasion. That being said if I had to try and strategise with what you currently have... Man, I don't know. I would probably spend the day trying to get some Galvanised Mods and some Arcanes for the Atomos Incarnon and make sure its evolutions are all unlocked. Ignore the Harpak entirely, and really just practice my timing around softening up enemies, and activating Gyre's abilities to get the kills in order to give them enough sustain. The windows will be tight though. Like it doesn't surprise me you are having difficulty with it. Murmur are also pretty chunky health wise, I personally haven't used Gyre too much against them, to know how strong she is against them. I do run her against Steel Path Grineer but factions can have their differences, plus these are high level Murmur and some of them also have armour. At the very least, you can take solace in the idea, that once you unlock some more tools, it will actually be a lot easier. Good luck though, and I would double the advice about bringing a Spectre if you can, trying to find a Necramech computer (if you can). Archguns can be okay, because 1. They can give you a little bit of Overguard which can be a bit nice, but you will also want to use a strong practical Archgun as well, so if you feel proficient with your Corvas and have invested in it, but otherwise... Also remember its totally okay if just put such missions on a hold temporary to get stronger. I still remember struggling in my very first Steel Path mission, and now I personally find EDA pretty chill most weeks so far. Oh, and you could also ask in recruiting chat for help. Just you might want to be a bit... Personally, I like the idea of people helping people, since its just a game, but some other people can get a bit tense around the idea of carrying weight and all that jazz. If you make your build one where you can at least survive, and provide some CC etc you might find some team mates willing to do a bit more damage wise. You just have to communicate and find some people to team with basically. Again, good luck!

I've always preferred Void Dash over Void Sling, but its not a huge deal breaker for me or anything. Like if DE asked me if I wanted it changed, or if I wanted a toggle or some sort of way to get it back, my answer would be yes to all of those questions. I don't necessarily hate Void Sling though, I probably do use it a bit less. I think Void Dash felt better, had better utility, required more skill, and that that was a good thing, as it rewarded use and practice. I wouldn't necessarily be that down if it didn't return though. Oh but great points and summary all the same OP.

Glad to see a lot of enthusiasm for Tenet Exergis. The Exergis is really such a fun weapon, as far as visual aesthetic, audio sound design, and just the feel of it. Glad to also see everyones picks and fondness for weapons. I also like the suggestion for the Stropha. I don't think it needs an upgrade, but I always hoped that since it was released roughly around the time of Protea, either that or Stahlta may get a Prime version, with her, even though Velox was her signature (just to round out her package), but now that we know its Okina getting primed, I'd really like to see Stropha get a Tenet version (the same way hopefully Nidus bundled weapons could hopefully get Infested Lich treatment). Great suggestions everyone.

Now that I have gotten to listen, there were some interesting tidbits and reveals. I really do wish more info was readily and freely available and just generally more transparent, as far as game costs, strategies and so on, and some of it is, just you know, not all of it. For various reasons. Plus I don't have as much time or energy to really investigate and understand game business/development, even if I find it interesting. 10% is an interesting number as far as players contributing to the game directly as far as paying. The other day I remembered a Swvre study that Forbes referenced, thats very dated now, and I am not sure about all the variables they accounted for, but a rough conclusion was around the time of the study (I think about 10 years ago now), they put like... 0.15% of mobile phone gamers were responsible for 50% of the revenue. So when I hear a number for Warframe like 10%, I wonder about more specifics, like they counting every player that downloaded the game, or play regularly. Do they strictly mean pay real currency at all, or like more those that pay past a certain amount. Then out of that 10%, like whats going on in there. Is it like 1% of that 10% responsible for 50% of paying? What's the additional break down there. Also am I considered a whale? I'm not actually sure, I have probably definitely spent more than the average Warframe player, but I have also probably definitely spent more time playing the game over the years more than the average player as well. I mean, I have max standing with Ventakids. Every few years I might but a Prime Access or two, usually for the accessories/cosmetics and to support the game. I like grinding for Prime stuff. In my mind, whales are the kind of players who just but Plat without ever waiting for a discount or the kinds of players who buy plat just because they want to buy Rivens for 2k plat or engage in that sort of thing. Anyway I am glad that Reb seems pretty aware of the backlash that can happen, as well as burn out, player thresholds and tolerances for certain practices/money grabbing and navigating that with players interests in mind. Warframe is the only game I play with this sort of monetisation, I couldn't even imagine playing multiple types of games designed this way.

I can't deny that she doesn't.

Its an inside job man, but don't ask too many questions around here friend... Once they know you are on to them, you might end up swimming next to the Echowinder's, or you might wake up with a Kaithe head in your bed. Now some might say that I am just a crazy conspiracy theorist, but I ask you this... Don't you find it awfully convenient that they put the hacking alarms on the same side of the doors that the Warframes are on? I don't find it convenient... Almost seems... preplanned! Though yeah its funny to consider. Also that some Corpus ships have huge resource drop booster as their back engines lol.

Wow you know 30fartKitty_slashsixty#187 too? Small world huh, thats my dear 86 year old grandmother. Been playing since 2014, Ember and Wisp main. She loves huge juicy butts. Always made gramps hit the gym harder for that reason. Though yeah the exact same thing always happens to me as well. I'll be at the Ducats stand trying to decide what I want to sell for Ducats or potentially keep to sell for Plat, but since I don't really like trading for Plat, and being lazy in general, so I'll be in my own head arguing about whether I should really be selling that rare Prime part for a Vaulted Warframe, when I do already have a full set... then someone will do a blessing, but by the time I register and try to do the thank you button, its too late... Opportunity lost... Though I can also do blessings myself, so I'll usually try to do a different blessing while that person is still in the relay, so they and everyone else can get multiple blessings going.

Thats good to hear about the aggression. I don't think you should be upset though, and I apologise that you feel that way. The reason I don't think you should be upset, is because you are overlooking several options. Also to clarify, I am not trolling you, which, you know, I realise is something a troll would probably say as well, but I don't think you are a troll either, because I value good faith with my interactions with others. So by your point here, that would only leave one other option, the one about the parallel dimension, but like i said before, there are more options, like knowledgable, intelligent, articulate, people have small understandings all the time. People aren't mind readers, and ideas and concepts can have a lot of nuance and depth that can lead to how we interact with them being tied with assumptions, which can lead to conflict, competition with others, when we set points and arguments against each other. Like I know that though various broad and specific means, I am decently intelligent, and knowledgable. That being said I still encounter misunderstandings frequently, but misunderstandings do not reflect an individuals brightness, comprehension, or anything of the like. So you shouldn't question or entertain that in regards to yourself. I am also not telling you I don't understand your point. Its possible that I am misunderstanding, sure, that is something thats always possible. That being said, do you think its also possible, that myself and others are actually grasping your point, just we aren't necessarily communicating to you that we do, and it might be possible that you aren't quite understanding our points? Not for any lack of, but I'll get to that below. Based on you saying that you were upset earlier, I can understand why you would start to use hyperbole, and use more exaggerated terms, and I know the fun of using literally, not so literally, but I want to talk to you quickly about how people can interact with each other and understand each other. A person (lets call them Person A) can understand another person, but when making their own points in relation to the other (lets call them Person B), Person A may not try to address Person B's examples or points in an exact 1:1 way, especially if a persons point overlap or run into similar issues, ideas, concepts that can be applied to other situations. Do we have common ground on that so far? Yes, there may be variables in Person B's points and arguments that lean on very specific issues, that aren't relevant in scenarios or situations that Person A starts to discuss, but you really genuinely believe that you can't at least see where other peoples points overlap and address what you are trying to say? Even if you may ultimately disagree why its not as pressing or relevant to your more specific issue? For example, you could say "I get why you might talk about another example, but that example, doesn't actually do or touch on this, my original point the same way. I will reemphasis it" as opposed to doing it the way you did. Do you understand what I mean and generally agree? The reason why I think you might also not be understanding my points accurately is.. because you seem to imply that I was trying to make my example similar to your example... Except I wasn't. My example with Dark Souls was expressly meant to be different to your example, in a lot of ways. For a very specific reason. There are some similarities, that were also intentional, but not to imply the examples were the same, but to touch on the ideas of delayed player activity/reward, and potential player frustration or negativity involved with such systems. Then the intended deviation was to compare standard game models with upfront pricing and FTP models. I genuinely believe I understand your point, and agree that Dark Souls doesn't wait until you get the weapon and then tell you to wait three days, but my point, whilst acknowledging your point, is that one can argue or acknowledge that the timer is largely superficial, in the sense, that people who start both games, will have to wait before necessarily acquiring an item, that they perceive will bring them enjoyment in some broad way, or not necessarily even that, but just that there is some sort of negative sense or feeling towards being delayed. Like if you want to more specifically argue that its strictly the UI Foundry Timer popping up thats more the specific gripe, sure... Just that the "sorry bro you have to wait 3 days" is already implicit in a lot of games already apart from the actual in game execution and style and manner of presentation. Just that in a lot of games where you pay money upfront in, where they already have your money, they presentation will often be different. That and in a lot of game, like FTP or games that want a lot of micro transactions, the other alternative, is to not have any timers at all, and just have items locked behind a payment, or bundle. Or some combination, a bit like Warframe. Based on what I described above, do you still think I am not understanding your points? Totally feel free to say I am too, my ego and my points aren't conflated. I really do sincerely want to know if you think I am not understanding your point, and do actually want to know it, if thats the case, if you are willing to express it. See I disagree here, because nothing takes place in a vacuum. It may not be your personal direct point or issue, but you implicitly ask a few different questions with your points like "why is this a thing, why are some okay with it, how can the game be successful by doing stuff like this" and even if you may not personally care about the answers or the relevancy, thats what a lot of people including myself will address because it is related and relevant, to such implicit questions/criticisms. Sure, because of what I pointed at above. Its okay that you aren't talking about it, but its still relevant and implicit with some of your points. and the topic overall. You also aren't the first person to have such issues, specific or broad, and so the ways people address and tackle such issues carries with it a lot of understanding and nuance as far as clashes of ideas and perspectives. Its also totally fine if you do not personally care for them too, just you shouldn't believe that just because you don't personally care for more of the nuance or context that they are non factors or relevant. Again to you subjectively, sure, but not in a broader, generalised way. Like do you see my claiming simply yes? I am not trying to force or impose points onto you and insisting that you conform to my personal beliefs. So when you say "simply no", you do seem a little upset and frustrated, because this is usually the sort of point frustrated people use, where they argue from insistence. As in "I am frustrated, I will just tell the other person No!". Which to be clear, isn't an attempt to invalidate such frustrations, i am just going off your opening paragraph. There are also other reasons that type of rhetoric can be employed outside of frustration too, of course. I mean my example was that since Dark Souls is a game that gets most of its money from you upfront before the start screen, it doesn't need to have a foundry timer. The delay system it implements is a bit similar outside of that. You need progression, you need time investment, you sometimes even need some crafting materials. It also functions similarly in that the games want you to suffer a little, and experience struggles, and they want you to lean on patience, persistence, observation, determination, and skill, to overcome such challenges and struggles. to be able to get new weapons, (among other reasons), and then often when you get such weapons, wanting more, or being satisfied with one of them. So the player gets motivated more and more by progression, so that they might reach a point of satisfaction. Whether that be 50 hours in and stopping at a wall, or beating the game. Then hopefully having enough of a good experience to feel good about the purchase and also maybe more likely to buy future games from that studio. Warframe is similar and different. Similar as far as wanting you to invest some time into the game, and having lines of progression. Experiencing struggles, but getting by them with patience, skill. Though in Warframes case, there are some differences here, like there is more emphasis on collection. that being said, one very big difference is the monetisation strategy. Since they haven't gotten any money at all from you upfront, they do need to lean on ways to try and incentivise spending. Also in ways that can be bypassed/ignored by those remaining FTP. Hence. Also, for some, it is a bad feeling that they do not start the game with a weapon that determines their entire play style, for lots of different people, there are a lot of bad feelings, around different game systems, monetisation strategies, game progression paths, game systems, gameplay mechanics. Bad feelings existing, requires context though. You can't just lean on the abstract idea of bad feelings, over the issues you personally feel strongly about, without understanding and considering the rest of the context. So again, its like you interpreted my example, as just randomly being brought up to yours because you think, that I think they are similar? When it was actually just to use to talk and describe differences in monetisation models. Like your own example, works better for my point, in that you can go and tell Warframe players that if they want a Warframe, they are going to have to wait 3 days, and most will shrug. Then you can emphasis new players because "many Warframe players get used to it", but many new players will also shrug when they realise its a FTP game. For those who bounce or are deterred, thats also fine as well, because enough new players come aboard and enough established players return, to support the current larger system. Yes it can also be improved potentially, but it needs to, in ways that make sense for a FTP, especially using as much objective internal data as possible. Plenty of people bounce and are deterred by many games as a default. Game devs aren't necessarily trying to literally appeal to everyone, just enough whose tastes may align with the strategy they roll out. I am aware of your point. I have taken it into consideration with many of my points. You have to understand that right and how people communication. This has been addressed not just by myself but others. Many things, in many games, will be disheartening for players in general and new players. Then we talked about why they can exist in games, and i talked about other scenarios people can feel disheartened, including some of my own friends around Warframe too. Some of your responses to this, was to use a larger abstract idea of "that doesn't excuse it:", "don't you see that this is manipulative", "its simply bad" which sure, and explaining systems isn't the same as endorsing or excusing systems, but people find putting things into context important. So when you also claim that your point isn't being understood, and that people like myself are talking about other things that are irrelevant, well... Its addressing your points and statements like these. Its like you are doing special pleading for your own very subjective and personal feelings and experiences and whilst at times, acknowledging more objective criteria and nuance, still ultimately dismissing everything else that doesn't just outright agree with you. I mean, if you say so, but often thats just what really frustrated people do in slightly tense online forum conversations. Its a bit like the equivalent of slamming a door shut, to send a message. I am just a random anonymous online random person, so of course you may not take me at my word, but either way, I sincerely don't want you to feel upset, frustrated or anything negative. I do sincerely apologise if this conversation has brought you any distress. Our ideas and points and arguments aren't tied to our character or person. I don't actually think we disagree about much. Like I think foundry timers are inconvenient, rife for frustration, etc I am just generally more apathetic to why they exist and how much of a deterrence people should find them given the larger context. Which is also inclusive of people being critical of them, and walking away from the game too. Just thats also counter balanced by why the game is likely set up that way too. Warframe is an objectively successful game, with people whose lives involved understanding such monetisation systems in a way to not only sustain the game, but grow it. So I think we agree on a lot, but the stuff we do disagree over, that shouldn't be taken personally or result in frustration or being upset. I also sympathise with being misunderstood, but that doesn't need to be personal either. Misunderstandings can happen all the time, even with no ill intent or without being a negative reflection on any of the participants. If you happen to see this, I wish you all the best for the future! Cheers.

Thats clearly Dante propaganda and preaching! He clearly has a book, and kills lots of people. Dante therefore is Kira with his Death Note! Some sort of follower or possibly a second Kira! The similarities are too similar! Those hugs and kisses... are more like... kisses of death! Cue dramatic music! More seriously though, cool interpretation, from someone who takes an interest in the symbology there. Little movie reference for ya there.

Sometimes stuff like this slips in on occasion. I can't remember if it was the Citrine spectres or another Warframe, where they would have an unintended stacking affect that would basically render teams nigh immortal (well more than usual), and IIRC that was fixed/patched a few weeks later. May depend on the severity of the issue as far as intentional/unintentional behaviour and whether it gets adjusted or not. Nice find in the mean time though.

Fair enough. I would rather hear about a Warframe and Godzilla and Nier Automata mega cross over Warframe event than predictable stuff like new Warframes and such (which will be getting too, in the Dev Stream, they talked about that too, so good news), but if I only reduced everything to want I wanted most, and making sure others knew about that, well the world wouldn't really see much interesting variety or discussion. Regardless I will put on the official forms that you voted for Tenet Cringe, as a joke.

If you already watched this weeks Dev Shorts, you may have heard this, but if you haven't, and want to watch, then Warframe | Devshorts 13. I wanted to create this thread, since even though we only need to wait until Fridays Dev Stream, I personally really like Kuva and Tenet weapons, and thought it might be fun to speculate and guess what they might be. Or just state what you want to see, or expect to see. My guess is that there will strictly only be one additional Kuva weapon, and one additional Tenet weapon, (based off Rebs wording) but I am not a psychic or fortune teller, nor am I your boss, so speculate as you see fit. Personally? What I want to see, is a Tenet Exergis or Tenet Opticor and a Kuva Sobek or Kuva Javlok. I don't necessarily think thats what we are getting, but those are want I'd personally want. Well there are actually more I want, like a Tenet Amprex, Kuva Buzlok, Kuva Grakaka, Tenet Dera, Tenet Convectrix, Kuva Argonak, Tenet Lanka, but I don't want to just list every gun... (but also everyone gun). What do you want/think? (Also I am pretty hype for this weeks Dev Stream now, am happy we are getting more Tenet/Kuva weapons).

Sorry babe, I played Deep Archimedea earlier this evening. I swear, its just the modifiers. Everyone is affected by this, its not just a me thing. I promise tomorrow night, I'll give you some "Prime Continuity", at least 40 seconds of "Axios Javelin", to your "Rally Point". If you know what I mean... ... ... Intercourse. Its an intercourse joke. I was actually glad I got Mag, with that modifier, since I usually don't really care for duration on her. Just as long as the enemies are grouped to make shooting them easier, all good. Having them effect Corrupted Mods could get to some fun experimenting. Combine with some Dragon Keys. Imagine if one modifier was that you couldn't move, jump, roll, parkour, etc. Whole mission is just waiting for enemies to get to you, you walk speed is so slow, most of the "challenge" is just slow walking to the extraction. Team mates taking like 10 minutes slow walking, after killing 180 enemies at the starting point. Naturally Nova, Volt, Wisp meta would evolve. Take 5 mins instead of 10.

Hello. You should feel free to and you are correct in that its okay to make and bring up points and ideas about predatory practices in games and in Warframe. but validity has to do with sound basis of logic and fact. So you are dealing with reason, understanding and knowledge here. So knowledge about numbers and why and how they exist in the first place, and continue so, and how the model exists and operates compared to other models, and how people and players engage with them, all give context to positions and determine the validity (or lack of validity), around certain claims, arguments or observations. The person you are responding to, was making pretty reasonable points, but a lot of your counter points rely on subjective, relative rhetorical points that strictly don't have simple single answers. I'll explain below. Right now I am playing Dark Souls III (for the first time), even though I played Demon Souls and Dark Souls 1 on their original releases. My favourite weapon type are Ultra Great Swords. If you are unfamiliar with these games, well you don't start off with any Ultra Great Swords being available, and even if they were, your characters starting stats would generally be insufficient. Its going to probably take a few hours, maybe days depending how much I play, and getting through a few different areas before I get my hands on an Ultra Great Sword... is that fair? Well, depends, a lot of people already don't like Dark Souls games, for a variety of reasons. or they don't play or buy the games, or they criticise them, but its not like they really changed the specific point I brought up (I haven't played Elden Ring yet, so maybe you can start off with an UGS in that). For myself, its not really a matter of fairness or not, since I am accustomed to those games general design and philosophy, and am okay with them, even enjoy that sort of style. There is intended progression scale, some weapons they want you to work for them, in time, in stats, in progression. That being said, you also can't pay real money to skip the time, stats and progression right? How does that effect the element of fairness? If you could, would that then make the process unfair and being predatory, or is unlocking stuff behind time, stats and progression inherently bad? See if this was a fighting game, well most of the characters are unlocked right at the start? Why don't Dark Souls and Warframe follow suit? Additionally Dark Souls games usually aren't FTP either. They do have premium DLC... but you pay an upfront price for the game. Now is it predatory to make people buy a game before they can play it, and also locking behind certain gear behind progression? Or is that just pretty normal for some video games? See if your friends also said "I don't want to play Warframe, because I can't play Ember RIGHT NOW, and I don't want to play Dark Souls because I can't use an Ultra Great Sword RIGHT NOW" thats totally valid and fair for their personal preferences and tastes... and you can also argue its predatory and manipulative, but you do have to be careful, because there are things you are going to personally be okay with, that are also manipulative and predatory to some extent, buy you will likely overlook it, or not really mind, because thats almost literally everything, especially under capitalism, especially in the video games industry, outside indie fan made passion projects that are completely free. Dark Souls monetisation model, being upfront/standard, means that it doesn't need to incentivise or monetise systems like short cuts to items or play styles or bypass what some may consider "annoying or frustrating" mechanics. Warframes monetisation model, being FTP, means it has to find ways to incentivise and monetise convenience. Then for a lot of people, but not your friends, it really isn't an issue. I personally thought/think Excalibur isn't that fun, but I planned on playing Warframe for a few days/weeks potentially, and I could also learn about several different systems when playing as Excalibur, like bullet jumping, parkour, admire the levels, and design, soak in the atmosphere, and scenery, appreciate the sound design, search for collectibles, progress the story etc. There was a lot i could do and enjoy waiting for a few Warframes to build. Then I unlocked them, and that was super fun. I started to find ways to enjoy the game, even if some other ideas or design choices, I was a bit critical of or disliked. Plus since I never paid for the game, I could walk always walk away. Except eventually I spent so long enjoying the game, net positive over all, I eventually started to spend money on the game, feeling they had earned it, and because I know with a FTP model, some players have to support it, if you want to see it continue. Again, to be crystal clear, its totally fine if your friends are different, and they don't enjoy the game or have the patience or desire or will to occupy themselves within Warframe until 3 days passes. Except would they have honestly been okay grinding the same bosses until all the parts dropped for those Warframes? Since some people aren't. A few months ago, there was a person who thought that all bosses should drop all Warframe parts, so you should only have to fight them a max of 3 or 4 times. So remove all the RNG. Do you agree or disagree? What about someone whose friends doesn't want to fight bosses, since many of these bosses require progression... like its not so fast for a new player to get to Sedna or Eris... why not just offer every single Warframe from the beginning like a fighting game? Thats also a totally fair and valid stance to have, its just unrealistic and incredibly unlikely to ever happen under a FTP model. At that point DE might was well make Warframe a full price game or subscription, do you agree or disagree? See if enough players agree, the game Warframe wouldn't exist anymore, but enough people were fine with it, its carved out its own niche. See back to my friend group, there are some of them, that would actually probably just prefer that. Pay full price game value, get everything unlocked, all Warframes, all weapons, all cosmetics, and then start from there... Just Warframe isn't really designed to be played that way. It started 10 years ago, and 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been able to justify such a price tag. These days it potentially could, but only because of years of refinement and investment and pumping out newer content, remaking old content and so on... Again, I totally empathise with your frustration as far as having friends bounce off the game, and games do generally have a lot of predatory and manipulative practices. Warframe is a FTP though, so in some ways its more manipulative and predatory than say... older school games from 20 years ago, but even those games, you usually had people research and learn about whether they would enjoy and like a game before buying it. With FTP games, players should be even more careful, considerate and educated, and in that sense, and with some knowledge, many consider Warframe one of the best for that sort of thing. Which goes back to Legendary Drops general take on Warframe. Plus they are only at 20 hours in, they haven't seen how lavish and grand the games plot and tile sets and systems and features are. All of which is possible to experience free (not that I personally would recommend a player go complete FTP with the game, unless they wanted to deal with other players and trading, which eh...) With my own friend group, and changes to Warframe so they would play it? Eh, game is pretty successful (objectively I mean), it doesn't really have. anew player problem, as far as I understand it, they have more of a "retention problem,"because a free to play model means low barrier to entry, and new players are pretty easy to entice, but getting them to necessarily stay, and in such a way where they want to develop habits in keeping around, thats tougher, and so you could potentially argue timers based on that merit, but I also already covered that in my first post, about why and how the FTP model also wants to encourage certain understandings and lessons to the player. Timers is probably a tried and tested method that helps support the game. Since again, they don't get upfront money. So whist it might be a bit personally frustrating that some of my friends aren't interested, there are literally thousands of other games out there, and there are like many games I personally don't care for as well. I don't care about Fortnite, Diablo 4, Overwatch 2, but I don't necessarily think those games should change to appease my preferences and tastes. Not that there is anything wrong with me criticising them either, to be clear, just that it might not be realistic or potentially reasonable to expect that. Frustration with game systems and generalised issues with predatory and manipulative practices aren't the same as good valid arguments and understanding around why Devs implement systems designed for retention, like timers in FTP modelled games. Its fine to criticise it, and be against it, but then you are also criticising and arguing against larger structures, like FTP models in general. Potentially broader, like advertising by definition, is trying to manipulate you. Just in ways, most people find relatively acceptable, and ideally there are laws and regulations to keep them in check as well. Personally I like to encourage everyone to be super critical of everything, advertising, FTP models, Capitalism, Warframe, foundry timers, Regal Aya, lol, but good criticism also requires good understanding, and good understanding is demonstrable. (I hope none of this comes off as aggressive or argumentative. I just thought the person you were replying to, was making good reasonable points, and I think you make some good points as well, but a lot of your points seem more to do with personal frustrations and personal experiences you had with the game and your friends, and less to do with the nature of why and how FTP models often utilise such designs, and why they still persist and exist despite your claims of them being "outdated". Since to my own understanding, games have only become worse on the whole as far as such monetisation tactics, and as far as FTP models specifically, Warframe is one of the best, relatively speaking. Like a few months ago, Mortal Kombat started selling Fatalities as DLC. Back when Mortal Kombat started, you didn't have any of that. Just paid once, and got everything, including secret characters/unlockables (well I can't actually remember the OG game that well if it had secret things, like characters you could play as, or whether they were just brief cameos/opponents but I am sure the point is made). Cheers.

Thank you for posting this and the link.

There's a Warframe that can make them do the Limbo as well.