Elite Alert Buffs A Little Excessive

[(PSN)Crixus044]

After watching the Primetime, I saw how elite alerts are getting player exclusive buffs for the mission. This is a cool concept, but it's obviously at a premature state. The buff shown was +300% strength to equinox and +300% buff to supra. This is absolutely MASSIVE. I can already see the massive synergies that will come of this. Can you imagine +300% range equinox? That's map wide.

The problem with this is that it not only is a little excessive as a buff, but if it extends to duration and efficiency too, it also kills some tactics. I'm talking about speed nova, slowva,  ev trinity, larva nidus, savage silence banshee, etc. A lot of these tactics revolve around managing the power stats of you frame. Too much or too little can throw it out of whack. If it was something manageable like 50%, that can be worked around, but something like 300% is too much.

The next problem is recruitment. Since it is player specific, some players may be looking to play loki, but have a buff for rhino. If they go to recruit chat, they are gonna see "Hosting Elite Alert, LF boosted range loki." or "Hosting Elite Alert, need 1, must have boosted stats." Because these boosted stats are so strong, they are gonna be high commodity. If they are dialed back, an optimized build can manage and boosted stats will not be so demanded, not that they're required, but players will always look for the easiest route.

Any frame and weapon with the right tactic can and will reach level cap. We do not need such massive buffs to do well. I cannot speak for more than a few players I personally know and talk to, but I'm sure there are many others that agree that you don't need all this to do good.

Thank you for your hard work

[DrBorris]

Sometimes a bit of excess is fun though.

[Arlayn]

Oh boy. I didn't think of this at first, but your right. It is getting harder and harder joining groups for difficult farms. As it is, it is already needle tight just to join an eidolon hunt. A need for buffed versions however will be a pain to keep up with. Maybe if said buffs were extremely random, and you had literally zero idea what they could be it might not be so bad we would all have an even playing field. Also maybe it should be more specific? Instead of focusing on strength on Equinox it can be a specific stat within one ability, or a passive effect. An example maybe Excalibur's Javelin hits more enemies, Banshee's sonar makes bigger weakpoints, on hit of certain kind Inaros gains shields for 5 seconds, for every successful kill with exalted weapon on deactivation gain (X).

A straight buff of strength, range, etc. on everything would make it impossible to join a pub, or small group to get the job done. New players will be even more isolated and unwanted. They will have to go to the extreme to get anything nice which is a "level 20 wall". "Level 20 walls" tend to kill games because no one wants to grind their damn brains out just to be wanted and brought along to help them out.

[(PSN)vidare]

First of all, this gamemode is not aimed to attract new players. It's for those that have been forgotten. The endurance players, those that don't go to Cetus, run short missions and so on. This i a end game for those players.

Also, it's 300% range added to base of 100 =130 with the buff. A Equinox can run 280%range right now.. With these buffs, you can make new builds.. Like remove a streach and still have good range and add something else. Anther augment or utility mod that would never be used otherwise.

Edited September 22, 2018 by (PS4)vidare

[ShiraHagane]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)vidare said:

First of all, this gamemode is not aimed to attract new players. It's for those that have been forgotten. The endurance players, those that don't go to Cetus, run short missions and so on. This i a end game for those players.

Also, it's 300% range added to base of 100 =130 with the buff. A Equinox can run 280%range right now.. With these buffs, you can make new builds.. Like remove a streach and still have good range and add something else. Anther augment or utility mod that would never be used otherwise.

100% + 300% = 130%

nice math

[Arlayn]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)vidare said:

First of all, this gamemode is not aimed to attract new players. It's for those that have been forgotten. The endurance players, those that don't go to Cetus, run short missions and so on. This i a end game for those players.

Also, it's 300% range added to base of 100 =130 with the buff. A Equinox can run 280%range right now.. With these buffs, you can make new builds.. Like remove a streach and still have good range and add something else. Anther augment or utility mod that would never be used otherwise.

But why? Were you even here back in 2013? We used to be gods. It was fun, but at the same time if it wasn't for DE making the fast changes they did, and updates it would have made the game's future a bit bleak. The buff can be used in a better fashion than to make players into gods again. We don't need a repeat of 2013 again. What we need is more tact and strategy. I was all for the break down of damage mods into more situational ones like the ones used in pvp, but that never happened instead they kept feeding those same issues again and again instead of pushing for more diverse mod builds they made them streamlined a specific way for each warframe, and weapon. This kind of buffing isn't helping to create a more diverse builds enviroment its pushing for a more streamlined builds. A long time ago I was hoping they would make it so we could build to our style, but the updates and mods they keep adding say otherwise. This buff is just another building block towards streamlined builds.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Arlayn

[[DE]Momaw]

Bear in mind that it's an alert so they'll probably be constantly changing throughout the day. Your super mega OP loki range build only applies to you AND it'll be gone next mission.  And if the frame you were going to play gets a buff you don't like, then use something else....The point seems to be to push players into trying a variety of strategies rather than always sticking with the 1 specific thing they're used to. Variety is the spice of life, etc?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 hour ago, (PS4)vidare said:

First of all, this gamemode is not aimed to attract new players. It's for those that have been forgotten. The endurance players, those that don't go to Cetus, run short missions and so on. This i a end game for those players.

Also, it's 300% range added to base of 100 =130 with the buff. A Equinox can run 280%range right now.. With these buffs, you can make new builds.. Like remove a streach and still have good range and add something else. Anther augment or utility mod that would never be used otherwise.

I know this is aimed for vets, because I AM a big proponent for vets and endgame. Look at all my former topics, you'll see.

And your example is..ummmm...
+300% range is exactly what it looks like, +300% range. Whether this is added to base or multiplicative of total (likely the former) is up to DE, but if you have 280% range on your equinox right now, you'll have 580% range after the buff. +300% strength with the 567% PS a squad of 4 with equinox (higher with warframe arcane helmets and ember/nidus passive) and a nidus, that's 867% power strength. With nidus having the same buff, that's 2778.735% PS. That's 22k Rhino stomps, 331,085 damage rhino stomps with roar also active. Just to put this into perspective of what will happen with 4 people in recruiting chat asking for those strength boosted frames. Now if it is multiplicative of total......oooooof. 9.7 mil stomps.

1 hour ago, Momaw said:

Bear in mind that it's an alert so they'll probably be constantly changing throughout the day. Your super mega OP loki range build only applies to you AND it'll be gone next mission.  And if the frame you were going to play gets a buff you don't like, then use something else....The point seems to be to push players into trying a variety of strategies rather than always sticking with the 1 specific thing they're used to. Variety is the spice of life, etc?

I don't think they said gone next mission, they said it lasts an hour, and they didn't say whether it is removed after completion, though I doubt it. Still, it doesn't take away from the fact that it will create this kind of demand that will be easily met, and for an hour, you might be out of luck. Who knows, that hour might be all you have to play. Maybe you wanna do a 2 hour run but have to go to bed like 30 minutes afterwards, you can't wait for the next roll. This is more of a minor problem and I don't think it'll create too much toxicity, as only a small group of players would really need or demand these requests, but they will be there and they will be apparent.

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Sometimes a bit of excess is fun though.

Oh I totally agree, but you really don't need these buffs to be a bit excessive. This is MASSIVE excessive lol, or potentially so. Like I said, my modern team comps that I help develop with my friends make sorties look like tutorials and carry us easily into level cap. There's really no need for these buffs and I feel like if this mission is really catered to the higher level community, these buffs are more like novelties. As I posted, they do more harm than good at those proportions. How am I suppose to run a speed nova with +300% power strength? lmao

The power strength buff is nice, but at 50% it would be better. not 300%.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Tbh, we are hitting, again, Mainstream: Dealing highest Dmg is only way to success. @IceColdHawk had perfect perception here:

Also kinda (positively!) surprised that you changed the revive mechanic in this mode from "No revives except getting helped up by team mates" to "No reviving at all". Makes it more challenging and requires players to always take care. I've been requesting this for (literal) ages and now it's here. Hope the rewards can reflect the difficulty!

300% Strength will spare around 4-5 Slots which you should use for Survivality, if not we will hit, probably, highest amount of Host migrations in WF era, when players without revives will simply disconnect.

[(PSN)vidare]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I know this is aimed for vets, because I AM a big proponent for vets and endgame. Look at all my former topics, you'll see.

And your example is..ummmm...
+300% range is exactly what it looks like, +300% range. Whether this is added to base or multiplicative of total (likely the former) is up to DE, but if you have 280% range on your equinox right now, you'll have 580% range after the buff. +300% strength with the 567% PS a squad of 4 with equinox (higher with warframe arcane helmets and ember/nidus passive) and a nidus, that's 867% power strength. With nidus having the same buff, that's 2778.735% PS. That's 22k Rhino stomps, 331,085 damage rhino stomps with roar also active. Just to put this into perspective of what will happen with 4 people in recruiting chat asking for those strength boosted frames. Now if it is multiplicative of total......oooooof. 9.7 mil stomps.

I don't think they said gone next mission, they said it lasts an hour, and they didn't say whether it is removed after completion, though I doubt it. Still, it doesn't take away from the fact that it will create this kind of demand that will be easily met, and for an hour, you might be out of luck. Who knows, that hour might be all you have to play. Maybe you wanna do a 2 hour run but have to go to bed like 30 minutes afterwards, you can't wait for the next roll. This is more of a minor problem and I don't think it'll create too much toxicity, as only a small group of players would really need or demand these requests, but they will be there and they will be apparent.

Oh I totally agree, but you really don't need these buffs to be a bit excessive. This is MASSIVE excessive lol, or potentially so. Like I said, my modern team comps that I help develop with my friends make sorties look like tutorials and carry us easily into level cap. There's really no need for these buffs and I feel like if this mission is really catered to the higher level community, these buffs are more like novelties. As I posted, they do more harm than good at those proportions. How am I suppose to run a speed nova with +300% power strength? lmao

The power strength buff is nice, but at 50% it would be better. not 300%.

Ohh S#&$ you are right. But those values were mot final i guess/hope. 30% would be fine though. 

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Tbh, we are hitting, again, Mainstream: Dealing highest Dmg is only way to success. @IceColdHawk had perfect perception here:

Also kinda (positively!) surprised that you changed the revive mechanic in this mode from "No revives except getting helped up by team mates" to "No reviving at all". Makes it more challenging and requires players to always take care. I've been requesting this for (literal) ages and now it's here. Hope the rewards can reflect the difficulty!

300% Strength will spare around 4-5 Slots which you should use for Survivality, if not we will hit, probably, highest amount of Host migrations in WF era, when players without revives will simply disconnect.

I'd be incredibly, genuinely and impressively disappointed. If what you all seem to think is actually true.

Why would you ever get buffs for content that's supposed to be hard, when we're already kinda OP? Even if it's just 30% instead of 300%. Getting random buffs make zero sense to me. When content is supposed to be "elite", then it should do all but buff the players. Cool concept for some casual minigame stuff but not for, what got advertised to be elite alerts imho. Make it tough, give it proper rewards so the "vets" don't have to clutter the forums with endless complaints about getting kicked in their face.

Edited September 22, 2018 by IceColdHawk
i should listen more carefully next time..

[ShortCat]

The excessive buffs are there to encourage players to pick something else, besides Nidus or Rhino. Do I understand the reasoning behind this design choice? Yes, I do. What is my opinion on this? It is disgusting. Literal gameplay degradation. Applause!

Elite Alerts' conditions - no revives and endless mode with ABCC rotations, will reveal all the issues the game has in endless mode: namely sewer camping and dominance of tanky frames. Every newb will come with a Rhino to somehow survive those 30 minutes, while experinced players will form camping parties to sqeeze every last drop of possible rewards. Behold of the most boring, safe and mind numbing meta in Warframe's history. Those random buffs exist to somehow promote dying "run & gun" playstyle or equipment outside meta, but will fail in the end (or rather already failed).

[Loza03]

2 hours ago, ShortCat said:

The excessive buffs are there to encourage players to pick something else, besides Nidus or Rhino. Do I understand the reasoning behind this design choice? Yes, I do. What is my opinion on this? It is disgusting. Literal gameplay degradation. Applause!

Elite Alerts' conditions - no revives and endless mode with ABCC rotations, will reveal all the issues the game has in endless mode: namely sewer camping and dominance of tanky frames. Every newb will come with a Rhino to somehow survive those 30 minutes, while experinced players will form camping parties to sqeeze every last drop of possible rewards. Behold of the most boring, safe and mind numbing meta in Warframe's history. Those random buffs exist to somehow promote dying "run & gun" playstyle or equipment outside meta, but will fail in the end (or rather already failed).

Indeed. Perhaps other players will finally realise that just pumping up the levels does not make things fundamentally or interestingly more difficult, at least not with current design.

People say that better enemy design will just be melted by nuke builds, yet we already have enemies that can survive nuke strategies like noxes, or could outrange them if given the proper space and AI, like Ballista, but they are not allowed to prosper. As soon as hard-counters to these setups exist, they WILL crumble as they rely on threats disintegrating before they can even reach the player. This works currently because everything, even the potential counters to these strategies, blindly march towards mid-range in single-file through tight areas and start shooting. 

Fundamental alterations to certain aspects of Warframe's design, Enemies and areas especially, can allow for the gameplay to be revitalised in an interesting way, and then allow for more difficulty in a fun and interesting fashion.

[(PSN)Kamranos]

Perhaps the changing warframe and weapon buffs are going to be there to move players out of their comfort zone and play with frames or weapons they don’t use as often.

[GPrime96]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Also kinda (positively!) surprised that you changed the revive mechanic in this mode from "No revives except getting helped up by team mates" to "No reviving at all". Makes it more challenging and requires players to always take care. I've been requesting this for (literal) ages and now it's here. Hope the rewards can reflect the difficulty!

This right here, would bring me far away from Elite Alerts. It's like turning a PvE CO - OP game into a PvP Solo Game because of how fast Teammates in Public would die on you and leave you. If you played Sorties, Plague Star, or Mot, you would know how much Reviving you would have to do in Public. No team Revival is just asking the Players to create your own Team and just Cheese the Mission. It dosen't fit in this game.

Edited September 22, 2018 by VPrime96

[Julian_Skies]

On 2018-09-22 at 3:18 PM, Loza03 said:

Indeed. Perhaps other players will finally realise that just pumping up the levels does not make things fundamentally or interestingly more difficult, at least not with current design.

Fwiw DE seems to realize too. They mention enemies with synergistic effects, enemies with upgraded AI and gaining special modifiers as time goes on (they mention all three in the prime time, particularly mention knockdown resistance)

[AreeSoothsayer]

Heh. While reading this I wondered something.

 

Instead of Range, Power, Effiency, Duration, you got a buff of 300% Armor, Health, Shields, Max Energy instead.

[Julian_Skies]

5 hours ago, AreeSoothsayer said:

Heh. While reading this I wondered something.

 

Instead of Range, Power, Effiency, Duration, you got a buff of 300% Armor, Health, Shields, Max Energy instead.

I am get certain that ever stat of a frame is liable to get chosen to be buffed.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2018-09-22 at 2:18 PM, Loza03 said:

. Perhaps other players will finally realise that just pumping up the levels does not make things fundamentally or interestingly more difficult, at least not with current design.

It wouldn't make it more interesting, but it is still needed imo

Damage-ehp ratio in wf is considerably unproportioned. There are 3 facets to difficulty. Mechanics, ehp, and damage. Mechanics are stuff like AI, abilities, hitboxes, movement, etc. Nox, bursas, hyenas, and nullifiers are great examples of mechanically challenging enemies. If every enemy was like them though, the game would be cancer and a cheese fest of puzzles, counter mechanics, and glitches. That's why damage and ehp are also needed, which increasing levels covers. So really what you need is all 3. Increased levels, mechanical enemies, and smarter tomato cans aka enemies.

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

It wouldn't make it more interesting, but it is still needed imo

Damage-ehp ratio in wf is considerably unproportioned. There are 3 facets to difficulty. Mechanics, ehp, and damage. Mechanics are stuff like AI, abilities, hitboxes, movement, etc. Nox, bursas, hyenas, and nullifiers are great examples of mechanically challenging enemies. If every enemy was like them though, the game would be cancer and a cheese fest of puzzles, counter mechanics, and glitches. That's why damage and ehp are also needed, which increasing levels covers. So really what you need is all 3. Increased levels, mechanical enemies, and smarter tomato cans aka enemies.

Agreed. Having enemies like the Corpus Crewman require hoops to jump through would be a total disaster. I'm talking more that the enemies mostly share the same AI. Ballista get into the same range as Troopers, despite one having a Sniper Rifle and the other a Shotgun. That AI being 'Get close and shoot' which leads to enemies marching single-file towards death a lot. There's too much of the 'Vanilla' combat encounters, not enough of the other flavours. I'm suggesting enough enemies like the Nox and such to make simple nuke setups unsustainable, and readjusting the enemy AI, damage and EHP scaling so that regular enemies become a lot more fun to fight with their combinations of strategies, instead of all marching into a blender.

Another thought is possibly redesigning the nuke abilities so that they're not as one-size fits all. Perhaps abilities requiring some kind of setup, more significant cost (making the frame less powerful on use?) or instead enabling large amounts of damage, kind of like Molecular Prime does. Using Volt as a possibility, changing his passive so it behaves kind of like Nidus's stacks, but charged through moving and fighting instead of one of his abilities. His abilities then all drain some of this charge to power up, with discharge always using all of it, so in order to nuke a whole room with discharge you'll need to spend at least a couple minutes fighting first.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2018-09-28 at 6:37 AM, Loza03 said:

Agreed. Having enemies like the Corpus Crewman require hoops to jump through would be a total disaster. I'm talking more that the enemies mostly share the same AI. Ballista get into the same range as Troopers, despite one having a Sniper Rifle and the other a Shotgun. That AI being 'Get close and shoot' which leads to enemies marching single-file towards death a lot. There's too much of the 'Vanilla' combat encounters, not enough of the other flavours. I'm suggesting enough enemies like the Nox and such to make simple nuke setups unsustainable, and readjusting the enemy AI, damage and EHP scaling so that regular enemies become a lot more fun to fight with their combinations of strategies, instead of all marching into a blender.

Another thought is possibly redesigning the nuke abilities so that they're not as one-size fits all. Perhaps abilities requiring some kind of setup, more significant cost (making the frame less powerful on use?) or instead enabling large amounts of damage, kind of like Molecular Prime does. Using Volt as a possibility, changing his passive so it behaves kind of like Nidus's stacks, but charged through moving and fighting instead of one of his abilities. His abilities then all drain some of this charge to power up, with discharge always using all of it, so in order to nuke a whole room with discharge you'll need to spend at least a couple minutes fighting first.

Exactly. I'm sick of idiot kamikaze nullifiers. They look so bad running up to you, leaving their friends behind, with the bombard standing behind like "thanks man....-_-". I've made countless posts about this, how they should code actual tactics used by players, like allowing some people to play as enemies and watch that they do.