Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[--PV--Arc]

13 minutes ago, iuki. said:

I absolutely do not mind DE catering to new players at least for fortuna: it's new content everyone should be able to enjoy, not just the vets.

>Catering to new players

>Content Everyone should enjoy

Choose one.

[DreisterDino]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Zero_029:

Why is it everytime DE makes challenging content with Veterans in mind that content goes unplayed/avoided & hated like the plague?

Kuva Survival, Elite Onslaught, & Arbitrations are recent topics.

Vets asked for a mode that would push them to the brink, couldn't be easily played endlessly, & would let them see just how far their loadouts would go.

DE adds Elite Onslaught.

Veterans ask for gameplay that is unforgiving & makes lives matter.

DE adds Arbitrations.

Veterans ask for enemies that can't be easily dispatched by Warframe powers & etc.

DE adds Combas, Nullifiers, etc.

Yet all of the above are hated for their difficulty or some reason which basically results in the fact DE listened & gave folks what they asked for.

Something i dont get is that some people say "well, its not challenge, its just annoying" ...hmm....what? You can say that to pretty much everything that you cannot nuke then..

Edit: Nvmd, who cares 😄

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by DreisterDino

[CoolDudeMcCool]

6 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

>Catering to new players

>Content Everyone should enjoy

Choose one.

Alright, I'll pick just like DE. Catering to the larger section of the playerbase. You know, newer players, casual players, veterans that don't mind not taking the strongest builds.

So no, you really don't want DE to pick just one group to cater towards, because it won't be the smaller group most of the time.

 

[Leland_Gaunt]

DE doesn't give a crap about older players and will keep catering to the newer players because those are the ones that buy plat.
The game has been watered down so much over the past years, it's not even comparable anymore.

All this bite-sized, 20 min. max. content proves that. Arbitrations are somewhat of a challenge but ultimately a waste of time as the rewards suck big time. Sorties are trivial at best. There is mo way to make the game engaging for vets without putting off new players. And considering vets don't mean much to DE compared to new players, WF will never ever leave the casual state it's in right now and be engaging, challenging and rewarding for older players. Everything is casualized to the max, and they won't change it back.

The best player is the one that plays for half a year, buys domes plat and after a few months never plays again. They won't complain, they won't need content and they don't need any endgame activity. A long time player is the worst that can happen to DE because they want all of that and don't spend as much money on plat. So DE doesn't want them hence there is no catering to them because it's better for DE if they just leave the game.

It's all about paying customers and those are more likely to be new players that don't stick around for too long though.

 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

10 minutes ago, Leland_Gaunt said:

DE doesn't give a crap about older players and will keep catering to the newer players because those are the ones that buy plat.
The game has been watered down so much over the past years, it's not even comparable anymore.

All this bite-sized, 20 min. max. content proves that. Arbitrations are somewhat of a challenge but ultimately a waste of time as the rewards suck big time. Sorties are trivial at best.

It's not that DE doesn't care, it's that their content for veterans is "a waste of time" and "trivial at best". Even when they make decent content - you yourself call Arbitrations somewhat of a challenge - they get crap for not having good rewards. You have content you can play for enjoyment - I assume you find challenging content fun, because apparently those two are synonymous for a lot of the people here - but you don't like it because bad rewards. So even when they accomplish making something you enjoy doing, it's bad because there's no good rewards. Maybe it's hard for DE to cater to veterans because they need to make sure that content is challenging enough for all of the power creep out there while not being totally unplayable, and then even if it works they need to make sure the rewards are decent or the people complaining that nothing is fun don't play it anyway.

 

[--PV--Arc]

49 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Alright, I'll pick just like DE. Catering to the larger section of the playerbase. You know, newer players, casual players, veterans that don't mind not taking the strongest builds.

So no, you really don't want DE to pick just one group to cater towards, because it won't be the smaller group most of the time. 

  

I won't pick someone who's not going to play the game for 2 days then never going to come back to it.

 

I pick everyone. Everyone should have fun. You know... because I'm not a selfish A******.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Arc2199

[zetheros1]

The Warframe community is the best, most generous, least-toxic gaming community there is. I am proud of all of you.

[seprent]

11 hours ago, SenariousNex said:

Make a switch that multiplies all levels by 10 and all rewards/drops by 2.  So Vets can fight their level 500s instead of 50s and get a little bit more rewarded for it. Simple and easy, splits newbs and vets so they don't interfere with each other. 

New player could just flip and interfere and be carried and that feature would need some more of lock and people would complain about that lock 

and vets would jsut play it till everyone does as a norm and then ask for challange again

8 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

>Catering to new players

>Content Everyone should enjoy

Choose one.

latter makes the former occur so you have some content catering to new players and stuff that doesnt so i pick the later so everyone is enjoying something happy? 

 

47 minutes ago, zetheros1 said:

The Warframe community is the best, most generous, least-toxic gaming community there is. I am proud of all of you.

You made a 4 am in need of sleep disgruntled grumpy tenno chuckle you get a cookie *cookie toss*

11 hours ago, BlackPanda39 said:

So they think Fortuna enemy is ok now, base on the devstream and they gonna make the big spiders accessible for all player, even new one. Are they blind lately or it seem something of with them? I don't know which part of the community they're listen to , but they are going in very wrong direction. 

Damned if they do damned if they dont situation think of it like this 

• DE makes vet/old player content vets then play it full meta style and stuff
• new/casual/what ever too many !@%#%^& labels to keep track of are complaining since they want in on the rewards 
• DE thinks it ok to lower the requirements abit to get pass to enter (arbitrations requirement as example of needing a pass to enter)
• now vets are complaining that DE is catering and this is a insult to veteran players and they should feel bad

all DE is picking what side of the sword hits them when they swing it since you have one side the new players talking and one side the old players talking and they in the middle of them are trying to equally listen to both sides and make content that is fair to the both of them well one sides likes or hates it and gives comments one sides hates it or likes it and gives comments while swinging knowingly or unknowingly their Epeen around the room hell id class my self as a vet that plays casually back a year or 3 ago id be game for more challange but seeing DE try to and then having that attempt thrown back like some bratty kid in a restaunt who didnt get the applesauce he likes with this is too easy or this is fake difficulty this is a cop out (ESO) The entery fee is annoying i hate X mission type why are you forcing me to play it the drones are annoying fake difficulty (Arbitrations) 

ive since them moved camps to i just want to have fun and its like a burden removed since then im actually having fun again with this game and i love it i started playing the game not caring about no challenge or end game i even played the attempts at it and had fun for once im my bland life not caring about something made something more fun to me its like one of those old movies you know are bad but you like it any way granted people enjoy different things but ey DE cannot satisfy all of you with what you consider is end game content or end game rewards even if de made a game mode where the enemies were level 500+ and had T4 buff (200% damage+ if i recall) where only a 2 grace set umbral adataption inaros stands a chance of living (yes hyperbole but players can reach that level of ignore the enemy where it makes sense) 

but eh maybe im wrong and i should feel bad for my opinion or some jazz its 4:30 am and im tired i shouldn't be up this late im trying to get my ged but damn it here i am putting my opinions down just to get them out there because i love this god damn game and it infuriates me to no end when one side or the other echo chambers and starts shouting how since stuff isnt for them the game is going in the wrong direction/dying and is catering to only one side or some other nonsense its right up there with back seat game developing when in reality they are trying to balance for both sides to enjoy im sorry if that's not your jam but the door is always available if you need a step out side for some fresh air 

speaking of fresh air im going to go get some since i kinda blew up at ya im not taking it away though spent a good while trying to be understandable in my insane ramblings so if you did read that far feel free to pick apart a 4:30 am argument and idk have a cookie reading this far probably earned ya one 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Leland_Gaunt said:

DE doesn't give a crap about older players and will keep catering to the newer players because those are the ones that buy plat.
The game has been watered down so much over the past years, it's not even comparable anymore.

All this bite-sized, 20 min. max. content proves that. Arbitrations are somewhat of a challenge but ultimately a waste of time as the rewards suck big time. Sorties are trivial at best. There is mo way to make the game engaging for vets without putting off new players. And considering vets don't mean much to DE compared to new players, WF will never ever leave the casual state it's in right now and be engaging, challenging and rewarding for older players. Everything is casualized to the max, and they won't change it back.

The best player is the one that plays for half a year, buys domes plat and after a few months never plays again. They won't complain, they won't need content and they don't need any endgame activity. A long time player is the worst that can happen to DE because they want all of that and don't spend as much money on plat. So DE doesn't want them hence there is no catering to them because it's better for DE if they just leave the game.

It's all about paying customers and those are more likely to be new players that don't stick around for too long though.

 

Finally somebody gets it.

[SenariousNex]

1 hour ago, seprent said:

New player could just flip and interfere and be carried and that feature would need some more of lock and people would complain about that lock 

and vets would jsut play it till everyone does as a norm and then ask for challange again

 

Same lock as arbitrations would work just fine. And the second part just makes no sense. If level 500-1000 isn't enough for you to have fun, then something just needs a nerf.

[Goodwill]

10 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

>Catering to new players

>Content Everyone should enjoy

Choose one.

INCLUDING new players.
 

[--PV--Arc]

59 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

INCLUDING new players.
 

That's what I mean by "Content Everyone should enjoy" -_-

They could have done something other than a global nerf.

[--PV--Arc]

2 hours ago, seprent said:

latter makes the former occur so you have some content catering to new players and stuff that doesnt so i pick the later so everyone is enjoying something happy? 

 

Yes. That's precisely what I want. Yet people here seem to be "OH NOOOO WE CAN'T HAVE THE NEW PLAYERS FEELING LEFT OUT"

Like WTF ? You're giving them a fun time at the cost of everyone else's.

There should be content available for all levels. I've repeated this again and again and yet people don't here seem to understand. It's like they're here for the sole purpose of baby sitting the newcomers rather than playing the game itself.

 

Sure the new players spent more plat but they don't keep the game alive and kicking. Catering to only new players will lead to trickling down of the game's core population.

That's why there should be more high level content and there should not be a 20min wait to get it nor even 5 min. It should be hard on the go , in the bounties themselves , in the normal missions themselves. Fun should be the incentive to do a mission rather than what the possible drop is.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Arc2199

[SilentMobius]

I've been here since virtually the beginning and I don't feel left out nor do I feel like the game overly focuses on new players.

[Pizzarugi]

It's a difficult thing, making sure content is accessible to everyone. I come from Path of Exile (completely different genre of game, I know), and while the devs do make the game accessible to everyone, the endgame content is extremely difficult to get into and stay there. Some will argue that kind of difficulty is good and gives veterans something to strive for, but it comes at the expense of limiting access to people who are willing to bust their ass to get it. Warframe, on the other hand, seems to want to make sure endgame content is accessible to everyone. While this lets everyone get to endgame equally regardless if they're casual or hardcore, the people who do get there are kind of left with not much else to do to keep them around.

If DE were to add challenging content with incredible rewards, it's going to upset people who don't feel they should have to minmax or engage in inconvenient aspects of the game to reach that point. However, by making sure the game is easy enough for anyone to do, the people who have kitted themselves to maximize their potential have nothing to push themselves to the limit.

At the rate things are going, a compromise is going to have to happen in order to appeal to both sides, whether they like it or not. Either more new enemies are going to have to be added that mechanically switch up the game with features that disrupt player abilities and debuff them in some degree (just like nullifiers and combas/scrambuses), or nerfs are going to need to happen to lower the max potential endgamers have so lower-end content is always challenging rather than trivial. DE already killed void keys with the key philosophy of "keep everything in the star chart", so I'm banking on nerfs happening, but new enemies is still a possibility.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Pizzarugi

[CoolDudeMcCool]

8 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

I won't pick someone who's not going to play the game for 2 days then never going to come back to it.

 

I pick everyone. Everyone should have fun. You know... because I'm not a selfish A******.

The latter is exactly what I said. You don't want DE to cater to a specific group, because that specific group probably won't be the hardcore I-run-seven-hour-survivals-for-fun group.

9 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

So no, you really don't want DE to pick just one group to cater towards, because it won't be the smaller group most of the time.

 

[kinrest]

I said this in the previous anti-nerf thread that was floating around last week:

I really wish that the open worlds were only accessible after completing the star-chart. That whole section of the game (75%?) is new-player friendly. New players have so much to learn out of the gate, I really feel that adding the open worlds on top of that is a lot. So no, I don't feel like DE would be excluding new players if they locked the open worlds to new players, because the majority of the game is for new players.

Once all the planets are unlocked, go ahead and take a crack at the open worlds! You will have a selection of warframes, mods, weapons, archwings, etc. in your arsenal at this point. Bounties should range from mid-tier to high-tier in difficulty. The bosses should be for end-game.

IMO, new content (for the most part) ought to be for those who have experienced the old content.

Edited November 17, 2018 by kinrest

[Spectre-8]

3 minutes ago, kinrest said:

I said this in the previous anti-nerf thread that was floating around last week:

I really wish that the open worlds were only accessible after completing the star-chart. That whole section of the game (75%?) is new-player friendly. New players have so much to learn out of the gate, I really feel that adding the open worlds on top of that is a lot. So no, I don't feel like DE would be excluding new players if they locked the open worlds to new players, because the majority of the game is for new players.

Once all the planets are unlocked, go ahead and take a crack at the open worlds! You will have a selection of warframes, mods, weapons, archwings, etc. in your arsenal at this point. Bounties should range from mid-tier to high-tier in difficulty. The bosses should be for end-game.

DE doesn't seem to agree with this logic .

[kinrest]

1 minute ago, Spectre-8 said:

DE doesn't seem to agree with this logic .

And a lot of other people don't either. I literally don't see the problem with working towards experiencing new content.

I'm glad that DE will increase the difficulty (by how much is still TBD), but this is a problem we're going to be encountering with every release, and it's discouraging.

Play any kind of boss battle or whatever enough times, you'll eventually memorize the mechanic and be able to steam-roll your way through, and it will be too easy.

[Spectre-8]

Just now, kinrest said:

And a lot of other people don't either. I literally don't see the problem with working towards experiencing new content.

I'm glad that DE will increase the difficulty (by how much is still TBD), but this is a problem we're going to be encountering with every release, and it's discouraging.

Play any kind of boss battle or whatever enough times, you'll eventually memorize the mechanic and be able to steam-roll your way through, and it will be too easy.

It's only a problem if the only game you play is Flooframe.

[--PV--Arc]

32 minutes ago, kinrest said:

I said this in the previous anti-nerf thread that was floating around last week:

I really wish that the open worlds were only accessible after completing the star-chart. That whole section of the game (75%?) is new-player friendly. New players have so much to learn out of the gate, I really feel that adding the open worlds on top of that is a lot. So no, I don't feel like DE would be excluding new players if they locked the open worlds to new players, because the majority of the game is for new players.

Once all the planets are unlocked, go ahead and take a crack at the open worlds! You will have a selection of warframes, mods, weapons, archwings, etc. in your arsenal at this point. Bounties should range from mid-tier to high-tier in difficulty. The bosses should be for end-game.

IMO, new content (for the most part) ought to be for those who have experienced the old content.

Nope not gonna happen. DE disagrees. The open world is what they show the new comers to draw em in. Better to add in some even lower level bounties than to nerf everything.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Arc2199

[CoolDudeMcCool]

19 minutes ago, kinrest said:

I said this in the previous anti-nerf thread that was floating around last week:

I really wish that the open worlds were only accessible after completing the star-chart. That whole section of the game (75%?) is new-player friendly. New players have so much to learn out of the gate, I really feel that adding the open worlds on top of that is a lot. So no, I don't feel like DE would be excluding new players if they locked the open worlds to new players, because the majority of the game is for new players.

Once all the planets are unlocked, go ahead and take a crack at the open worlds! You will have a selection of warframes, mods, weapons, archwings, etc. in your arsenal at this point. Bounties should range from mid-tier to high-tier in difficulty. The bosses should be for end-game.

IMO, new content (for the most part) ought to be for those who have experienced the old content.

I don't mind content aimed exclusively at vets - stuff like Arbitrations are a good example of this - but Fortuna was super hyped up, it even had a song. This isn't just some new content, it's a huge release that tons of people were on the edge of their seats for. It's one thing to ask for vet-focused content on Fortuna but it's an entirely new thing that people might even pick up the game in the first place for. Something they've worked on for months and drained their resources into, you think they wouldn't try to get as many people to play it as possible?

So if new content (for the most part) should be for older players, then things that send tremors of excitement through the whole community and cause people to yell about content drought are probably the other part of new content, the part that's not aimed at experienced players exclusively.

At the very least, they'd need to make sure their advertising makes it clear that the new content is not for new players. You don't want to excite people for something just to say "Oh yeah, make sure you have this arbitrary goal done first" when you release it.

[(PSN)Folkeye]

Though I have not experienced Fortuna yet because I am on PS4, I'd like to add to a few of the recent comments....

I personally agree that there should be areas that are way harder than others. With an open world, it's not too hard to figure out where you cross the line on difficulty comfort. So having the arse kicking zones along with the lower-key zones is perfectly fine. That caters to BOTH the veteran players who enjoy insane levels of difficulty, and new players just getting their feet wet.

If there is a clear boundary of 'Hey, this is really high level! I'd come back later when stronger.' Then cool, it works. But if it was set up as the new player being able to randomly wander into it, well, that could be fixed easily with a visual or verbal warning.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

All this Fortuna drama has Shown me is that DE might want to pull a page from MMO developers such as Blizzard & Daybreak (formerly SOE) & instead of making 1 Open World, they need to make 2.

So, once Fortuna updates start winding down they need to do 1 low level planet & 1 high level.

So for giggles we'll say: Mercury (Low) & Neptune (High)

But take their time doing them. So essentially we'd get them in 2020. So rather than an expansion sized update every year, we'd get the typical Warframe updates that are "meh alright" in size but then 1 extremely massive update every 2 years.

This should please the vocal minority (ie: forums, reddit, extremely vocal youtubers who don't even play the update) while keeping the Core playerbase engaged.

Those 2 years would of course be a drag as the typical: "New Frame + occasional new mode & weapon updates" & "New Frame + New Questline" are considered to be droughts.

However it would please the community in the end. As the vets would have a dedicated planet for difficulty, & new players would have a dedicated planet for them.

Now...impo...

Once the "Open World" maps reach say: Mars it's all vet content.

Post Mars & Phobos the game (Star Chatt wise) hits the intermediate point, & after Ceres, Jupiter, Europa, & maybe Saturn one could argue it's all "Hard" content from there on out.

So...Mars impo should be the first truly 50/50 planet. Ie: half vet & half newbie.

With Ceres, Jupiter, & Saturn being Intermediate  & Hard. While Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Eris, Sedna would ALL be very high level & extremely hard.

Pluto, Sedna, Eris, Kuva Fortress, & The Void should be unforgiving Dark Souls level hard impo.

Like stepping foot on them should be something that makes fills players with dread & terror as those are literally the Home Bases for the Enemy Factions.

I feel Mercury-Earth should be how it is ( or should I say was I haven't read the update notes since I think someone told me they made or are making Orb Vallis unfriendly to new players again?)

[kinrest]

17 hours ago, Arc2199 said:

Nope not gonna happen. DE disagrees. The open world is what they show the new comers to draw em in. Better to add in some even lower level bounties than to nerf everything.

Obviously it's not going to happen, DE has already made the open worlds accessible right out of the gate. It's not like they're going to suddenly take that away lol. My comment was more of a ~in my perfect world~ kind of situation.

As you said, DE's objective for the open world was to draw in new players and to try something new, which they succeeded.