Zenurik popularity vs. the other focus schools. A look at fixing the main problem.

[Lun337]

On 2019-01-11 at 6:15 PM, BrazilianJoe said:

I think that the easiest approach - as in minimum programming effort -  without reworks is to just make one additional node of each school way-bound, which would unlock Zenurik`s energy dash to everyone, plus one additional ability from each school. 

I don`t think Zenurik should be nerfed. I heard quite a few voices stating that Zenurik isn`t that good compared to others, and Energy Dash is basically the great magnet. Take it away and Zenurik becomes a dud.

I think energy is too central to the game, it is what fuels the warframes abilities, which is quite the spice that differentiates Warfrme from other games. I compare it to a Vaccuum-level of utility. So, each school should have its own way of getting it.

A more involved approach, is to have each other school have one distinct way to fuel the player`s energy, depending on each one`s focus. like creating eneryg orbs on melee finishers, or having a built-in "Rage" focus node, and so on. Each school would have its own thing. 

I don't thing it would kill Zenurik's specialty, as there is some overlap between schools. Zenurik, for example, has more efficient chanelling, which overlaps with melee. Having a single node with an ability to improve energy regeneration or acquisition on each school would not destroy Zenurik. Zenurik should get an additional node or two to increase its specialty on energy-related stuff though. Like reducing damage suffered inversely proportional to energy stored, and a strength buff directly proportional to energy stored.

Seconding this, energy dash for everyone would bring back the balance.

[blazinvire]

The energy system is as dilapidated as the damage system, really, and both have been begging for updates for years.

Zenurik's popularity is one way to look at it, but if you wanted to be extra thorough you could check how many people are running Rage or Hunter's Adrenaline, and the people who aren't using Zenurik, Arcanes or Rage/Adrenaline, you can check what frames they use the most and probably find the energy-independent types like Nidus and Trinity.

When it all boils down, I think everyone knows that Warframe without powers isn't Warframe.  All the people complaining about nullifiers or magnet-procs or the arcane infested or the various comba/scrambus style units, they're always bringing up this up.
Zenurik's issue, is that it gives people more of the core game experience.  Kind of like why people often pick Carrier even now Vacuum has gone independent, because their bullet output is so much higher than ammo drop rates.

Each other focus tree has a niche, where Zenurik's is mostly just 'more Warframe'.  More of the thing we came here to do in the first place.
If you wanted something to venerate casters, then give bonuses, don't give 'enablers'.
It's like back when people wanted Exalted Blade nerfed, and people defended it because it 'allowed' them to get into melee.
Completely relying on something to 'enable' a core part of the game that is supposedly 'optional', is bad design.

[Ulvra]

1 hour ago, blazinvire said:

The energy system is as dilapidated as the damage system, really, and both have been begging for updates for years.
...

I think you're putting a bit too much value into Zenurik here, like to say you essentially need Zenurik "in order to enable a core part of the game", I can just not see that. What Zenurik gives you is the ability not to care about energy, it gives you the option to be lazy and spam abilities without forethought, but to say that you need to rely on it?

I run vazarin myself, always have, always will. I have access to all the other schools, but none of them gives me anything which I consider better than what I have in vazarin. Additionally, I do not use frame arcanes, sure I could toss on arcane energize and again be lazy and not care, but I don't find that fun nor challenging and most of the time I'm not in any specific need for energy and still cast abilities when I want to. In my eyes proper energy management an efficiency is an integral part of your build and what Zenurik does is it gives an option to those who don't want to think about that. That's valid in my mind, it's an option, but to get it you have to forego so many other good options that the other schools could have given you, just because you couldn't be arsed to make a sustainable build.

A lot of my builds feature hunter adrenaline, but far from all since it won't work on frames where you can't really take a hit like a tank. Ember is a good example and when I play her I still rarely have energy issues unless I run into a group of parasidics like a dummy. You have to be a little more creative perhaps, but that's part of the fun.

Similarly I could not care less about carrier or carrier prime, sentinels to me is a toss away that I use only in situations where my pupper might be in danger because I don't want her hurt, and carrier especially... no... to toss ammo efficiency considerations to the wind and place it on a little friend who will blow up on you, that's a big no to me. If I want to bring my twin grakatas into a mission I will build them with ammo mutation because then nothing that happens to anything else will suddenly leave me without bullets. As for vacuum, it's a nice to have the first 6 months of the game while you're building up a couple resources, beyond that I'd rather not. I will still bring it in the rare case I want to specifically farm or when I am feeling incredibly lazy, but it's rarely ever necessary and for normal missions never. Though these days I bring fetch instead because exactly what I foresaw by making it a universal thing for companions happened, namely that the moment they let kubrows and kavats have it, there is literally no reason to ever use sentinels again (except for when you're too lazy to pull out your scanner yourself).

The main problem I see is that people are lazy, but you know what...? People should be allowed to be lazy and that's exactly what zenurik is, it's a laziness enabler, but where the balance comes in is what potential other benefits you have to cut yourself off from in the process.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I would rather they just combine all the focus schools trees into one and call it a day...

[KittySkin]

For me the problem its about how the other schools gives their bonus. I mean, check madurai. Nice for oneshoting stuff, terrible for everything outside eidolons because  theres A LOT of stuff to shot at.

If all other schools gives theire bonuses on a duration based buff instead of being a charge system or another clunky mechanic that dont fit a game like warframe at all, then they could be used.

I mean, imagine madurai. Void Dash gives you a damage amp for 30 seconds. If you void dash through enemies, it gains an added 3 seconds duration for each enemy you hit. If you Void Blast enemies before dashing, it gives you +10% extra damage for each enemy hit.

Now playing madurai (and any other school that adopts interactivity like this) will be fantastic AND tactical. Gather enemies, stun them, dash trhough them, abuse the long duration buff.
Nonono, instead of this we should charge for lot of times to add damage to the next 8 damage instances we made on a game where I kill between 200 and 300 enemys ON 5 freaking minutes. Sure, 8 damage intances will be usefull.

Al schools need duration based bonuses with as much interactivity as possible to improve  said buffs duration and effect, and if you dont believe me, just check the most popular one (zenurik, energy on a duration based buff on orb pickup and on void dash) and naramon's lolololdashes.
The most usefull focus things are the ones that interacts with each other and gives duration based stuff that is not a bummer to use.

[ebrl]

Being the most popular doesn't mean it's the best or even the most convenient. For general use Zenurik is only the 3rd or 4th best school, because energy pizzas exist (subject for another topic: maybe energy pizzas shouldn't exist). Maybe what needs fixing is the players?

[SarusMindfury]

Making Energy Dash way-bond unlockeable only will transfer the work from everyone using Zenurik to everyone unlocking Void Dash and using Madurai. 

An then, people will be angry cause "warframes do too much damage, balance the game" :S 

[SpaceWolf87]

I picked Naramon purely based on the role playing - "get to know your enemy and exploit their weaknesses". However skill tree does not reflect that at all. Other trees aren't any exception which imo is a real shame.

When I later checked other trees Zenurik was complete no-brainer. Not only for energy generation but also for heavy attack efficiency (which to me sounds better than Power Spike if you actually intend to use combo counter for something more than the stat stacking). And it also gives you void singularity which can be used for grouping enemies.

Other trees simply aren't that interesting. So it would be nice to add a little bit more spice to other trees. Just replacing Power Spike with Inner Might would make me to switch Zenurik for Naramon.

Anyway I hate when people are saying it doesn't matter just because it's primarly pve game. Of course it does! I'm glad we can choose operator specialization but it would be also nice to have more meaningful choices.

Edited December 28, 2021 by SpaceWolf87

[blupache]

I don't think a disproportionate number of people picking Zenurik is actually an issue.

Infact the more I think about it, the more I'd argue that it's potentially even good design.

It's appropriate that there be a less-power easy-mode school. And from a raw damage output PoV, all Zenurik really has going for it is heavy attack efficiency. If you can design for & use your warframe's energy appropriately - and in most circumstances you even have energy pads for an ohsh*t - then Zenurik brings nothing to the table.

What Zenurik does bring to the table is more straight-forward gameplay if you're sloppy with your warframe ability use. It's the learner wheels / no thought required operator school, which can prop you up even in upper end content, but which isn't actually as useful as more offensively oriented schools. If you really are min-maxing, you (normally) don't want to take Zenurik - for starters you're probably not running a high enough efficiency build that Zenurik helps much anyway (e.g. 10 seconds to get energy for one 50 point ability cast is.. kinda bad).

Boosting up the utility of other schools makes everyone engage with the operator school system, even if they'd rather just take the simple option & ignore it.

Plus fully speccing out the operator schools is a hell of a grind that really shouldn't be required.

PS. I do like OP's ideas, they're nicely thought out. I just disagree with the basic premise.

[Lutesque]

7 hours ago, SpaceWolf87 said:

I picked Naramon purely based on the role playing - "get to know your enemy and exploit their weaknesses". However skill tree does not reflect that at all. Other trees aren't any exception which imo is a real shame.

What's even worse is this choice is Permanent and replaying The Quest locks you into the original choice you made without full understanding what it meant....

The worst part is... The New War made the exact same mistake... 👀

 

[Joezone619]

Nerf to 3 energy/second, make way-bound. Seems like a simple enough fix to me.

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, Joezone619 said:

Nerf to 3 energy/second, make way-bound. Seems like a simple enough fix to me.

Im pretty sure the community would never stand for this... After all.... They aren't particularly Fond of Operators anyway... Atleast I don't think they are....ergo to someone who isn't curious about using other Focus Schools then this would just be a Nerf....

[Drasiel]

honestly if I could I would just give the zenurik energy circle ability to all base operators regardless of school. Give zenurik something else.

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

The Focus tree so some of the most tedious, convoluted, esoteric shinanigans I have ever encountered in 2 decades of gaming. Eventually it will be need a good streamlining.

My idea of a two track system, all Passives and Waybounds on the inner and all Actives and specialisations on the outer.

It's that simple.

[Yamazuki]

22 hours ago, Lutesque said:

Im pretty sure the community would never stand for this... After all.... They aren't particularly Fond of Operators anyway... Atleast I don't think they are....ergo to someone who isn't curious about using other Focus Schools then this would just be a Nerf....

Operators are largely ignored by most unless forced to use. Energy is all Zenurik is used for by most people. This means giving part of it for free to all focus schools is just going to create another most used focus tree while possibly making Zenurik worthless.

If more people utilized OPerator, many things people complain about would seem silly... such as dying to status, some delayed damage instances or even radiation sortie deaths stops happening due to OPerator preventing it. This is even ignoring any other benefits associated with them.

I personally find it useless to give Energizing Dash to all focus schools as a "buff" to non-Zenurik, given the majority of my builds either can't even use the energy provided by Zenurik or don't need it. Even for caster-play styles, I don't use Zenurik.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Yamazuki

[Lutesque]

40 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Operators are largely ignored by most unless forced to use. Energy is all Zenurik is used for by most people. This means giving part of it for free to all focus schools is just going to create another most used focus tree while possibly making Zenurik worthless.

If more people utilized OPerator, many things people complain about would seem silly... such as dying to status, some delayed damage instances or even radiation sortie deaths stops happening due to OPerator preventing it. This is even ignoring any other benefits associated with them.

I personally find it useless to give Energizing Dash to all focus schools as a "buff" to non-Zenurik, given the majority of my builds either can't even use the energy provided by Zenurik or don't need it. Even for caster-play styles, I don't use Zenurik.

Don't Forget about Client Side Transference.... 😭 Most Requested Feature Right Behind Universal Vacuum... 👀

[Joezone619]

I've said it before and i'll say it again, make zenurik dash waybound, problem solved.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

9 minutes ago, Joezone619 said:

I've said it before and i'll say it again, make zenurik dash waybound, problem solved.

Or learn to manage ability and energy usage. Problem solved.

[Famecans]

Turn all schools into skill trees with selection limit based on account level and place more unique boosts into each tree.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Turn all schools into skill trees with selection limit based on account level and place more unique boosts into each tree.

On account level? What does that mean? 

[Joezone619]

30 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Or learn to manage ability and energy usage. Problem solved.

I use uniaru, tell that to the 70+% of the playerbase that relies on energizing dash.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Just now, Joezone619 said:

I use uniaru, tell that to the 70+% of the playerbase that relies on energizing dash.

I already know that. That's why this isn't an issue. 

"New people use certain tactics until they can stand on their own." And other news at 11.

[Famecans]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

On account level? What does that mean? 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Famecans said:

Lol yea hard disagree but good luck with that.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

On 2021-12-29 at 4:04 PM, Drasiel said:

honestly if I could I would just give the zenurik energy circle ability to all base operators regardless of school. Give zenurik something else.

DE should just make Energy Siphon default. Biggest issue with Warframe progression is that most new players stick exclusively to low energy tanks like Rhino and Inaros, thinking Mag is terrible until they get a reliable way to get energy.

Archwings have innate energy generation but Warframes should too because energy orbs are unreliable. You can't manage a resource that has no consistency.