If you had a Nyx in public run what would you prefer?

[Blatantfool]

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It still doesnt make Chaos less of a bad ability. I rather have a map disarmed and coming at me so I can kill them for affinity and loot without having to move from the intercept objective. Irradiating Disarm is an overrated augment to begin with, Disarm doesnt need it to be one of the best CCs in game already. Melee mobs are as harmless as they can get, so stripping the mobs of their weapons and having them come for you is far more effective than confusing the map and having them shoot eachother somewhere far off. Loki also has the option to decide exactly where he wants the disarmed mobs to gather up by popping a simple little clone in their way.

Nyx is just a pointless frame, even after her rework because DE barely did anything to her.

 

  I don't entirely follow your logic or comparing base Disarm to Chaos, I'll try to explain myself. What my post was in response to was the subset of people under the misconception that somehow Irradiated Disarm is a better version of Chaos. It isn't. Stats wise, if you are in it for the confusion effect, it is inferior. As you yourself seem to understand as well. Irradiated Disarm isn't even the reason to use Disarm. We agree completely.

 The benefit of confusion isn't just in its CC, which in all actuality is fairly limited. The benefit is that it prevents AI from going for interactables E.I - Intercept points and possibly alarm panels though I'm not currently sure as laziness currently trumps my desire to check. Her relationship with intercept points is her shine as being able to trivialize a mission type even further for your squads benefit is just a nice things.

  Assuming you brought a Loki and a Nyx to a mission Loki would disarm foes to minimize their threat, sure, but alone he has limited potential to keep them from messing with the objectives. They change into melee units but still have the capacity to prioritize your objectives over you. That is what Chaos does. It forces the AI to prioritize a fight in their weakened state and allows them to be obliterated at any pace you please. After all, killing isn't the actual objective of Intercept. It is just keeping the points. Nyx removes enemy capping from the picture entirely and makes it a simple deal to whittle the timer.

 Nyx isn't a versatile Warframe. She isn't nearly one of the best. However without a doubt she does offer one really, really good angle that can be utilized in conjunction with other Warframes to absolutely spank the hell out of the Intercept gametype. Nobody out there can argue they'd feel hurt to farm relics even easier.

[Toran]

For myself I prefer a midrange Nyx (especially on defense) with a not too bright Energy. Psychic Bolts where needed.

Nyx was always my favourite frame in high level low energy runs. But with the ever-increasing power of our arsenal, CC becomes less and less important.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I've heard the "just a box of scraps ripped off better characters" complaint before, but this is the first time I've ever heard anyone argue it about the very first character in the game

Not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying she has a poor kit that is better spread out among several other frames than having a kit dedicated to just that, or that other frames simply have better versions/options that fill the same role. Never said Nyx was a rip off of other frames, just that her kit is outdated and bloaty with all other frame choices. Simply put, she needs a massive update.

18 hours ago, Raskolnikow said:

U ever played at lvl idk 70+? Melee mobs are the most dangerous enemies, thats why i abbandoned the idea of using disarm loki for kuva surv - after 30 min they can wreck the harvester before anyone notice. Also squishy frames get 1hit easily.

Overall i agree that chaos is a very very VERY soft form of CC cause enemies are still most likely gonna target you/teammates and should get some buff but i wouldnt say that disarm (alone) is much better

You must have ran with some bad groups then if a mob were ever to reach the harvester. Disarm+Decoy and they will never get near any objective and they are laughably easy to handle with frames. Chaos is a massive no-no especially for survival because you dont want mobs to huddle up in a catfight somewhere far off, more so in kuva surv because you need the drops of oxy much much more than in regular surv where you can rely on towers.

3 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

  I don't entirely follow your logic or comparing base Disarm to Chaos, I'll try to explain myself. What my post was in response to was the subset of people under the misconception that somehow Irradiated Disarm is a better version of Chaos. It isn't. Stats wise, if you are in it for the confusion effect, it is inferior. As you yourself seem to understand as well. Irradiated Disarm isn't even the reason to use Disarm. We agree completely.

 The benefit of confusion isn't just in its CC, which in all actuality is fairly limited. The benefit is that it prevents AI from going for interactables E.I - Intercept points and possibly alarm panels though I'm not currently sure as laziness currently trumps my desire to check. Her relationship with intercept points is her shine as being able to trivialize a mission type even further for your squads benefit is just a nice things.

  Assuming you brought a Loki and a Nyx to a mission Loki would disarm foes to minimize their threat, sure, but alone he has limited potential to keep them from messing with the objectives. They change into melee units but still have the capacity to prioritize your objectives over you. That is what Chaos does. It forces the AI to prioritize a fight in their weakened state and allows them to be obliterated at any pace you please. After all, killing isn't the actual objective of Intercept. It is just keeping the points. Nyx removes enemy capping from the picture entirely and makes it a simple deal to whittle the timer.

 Nyx isn't a versatile Warframe. She isn't nearly one of the best. However without a doubt she does offer one really, really good angle that can be utilized in conjunction with other Warframes to absolutely spank the hell out of the Intercept gametype. Nobody out there can argue they'd feel hurt to farm relics even easier.

But the enemies take 1 or 2 hits at most, and that is in order to kill a full group. And if you wanna lazy the way out of things, put a decoy near the console instead.

The game simply doesnt need conventional CC like Chaos. So Nyx skills would only be useful if you actually need that type of CC.

Your relic comment is also flawed, because Nyx doesnt make that easier, in order to crack them relics you need to kill, kill, kill and kill again. Chaos/Nyx serves no purpose for such a thing.

But yes, between overrated irradiating disarm and chaos, chaos is clearly better, if you are only after the S#&$ty mechanic that is confuse.

[SirTobe]

I play Nyx a lot, my main frame since Fortuna released. Modded for duration, efficiency, some range, and general survivability as I started using her mainly for Arbitrations. She's pretty much invulnerable and steady as a rock, except when there's leeching infested around. 

Chaos is just used for whenever I don't want enemies to focus on me, my team, or any objective. Also good if you need a quick break to regenerate energy. How much I use it completely depends on team and enemy faction, but usually not so much. Definitely handy though.

Mind Control is something I only use on tougher enemies if I don't want to deal with them while focusing on surrounding waves of weaker ones. It's my "shut up and go do something else for now"-spell. Great for Bombards and Nox, for example. What damage they deal is not important to me, as I'm just buying myself a couple more seconds before I have to deal with them.

Absorb is probably the ability I use with her the most, always with Assimilate of course. It completely ignores all enemy attacks and abilities, which is especially golden against Corpus in Orb Vallis. Move greater distances quickly with operator when needed. I try not to abuse it, but I really love to just slam into a room full of enemies, activate absorb, and just go nuts with big swords and guns as they keep swarming the place. That's very satisfying 😄 Absorb of course also works as a panic button. I usually have Rejuvenation aurora with her, so whenever I'm low on health I just go into absorb to slowly regenerate my health while continuing the battle. Same to keep the sentinel alive.

I don't use her second ability at all. My weapons are powerful enough to deal with most high level enemies quickly, and if not then I can just go into absorb and take my time lol. Not worth compromising other abilities for strength imo.

As for colors, I don't like bright ones so I just always use darker versions. As others have said, it shouldn't be blinding, but it is also good to see which enemies are affected by your abilities. With my current main fashion I think I'm using the darkest red from Halloween pallette.

Edited January 23, 2019 by SirTobe

[Blatantfool]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But the enemies take 1 or 2 hits at most, and that is in order to kill a full group. And if you wanna lazy the way out of things, put a decoy near the console instead.

The game simply doesnt need conventional CC like Chaos. So Nyx skills would only be useful if you actually need that type of CC.

Your relic comment is also flawed, because Nyx doesnt make that easier, in order to crack them relics you need to kill, kill, kill and kill again. Chaos/Nyx serves no purpose for such a thing.

But yes, between overrated irradiating disarm and chaos, chaos is clearly better, if you are only after the S#&$ty mechanic that is confuse.

 I think we're miscommunicating somehow. Nyx's relic farming potential is just that. "Relic farming". She can comfortably and repeatably farm Intercept to acquire the relics themselves while being in virtually no danger. The potency increases in power as the levels of the foes go up.

  It's better the stronger enemies get. The ability to force enemies to attack instead of operate objectives means they'll shuffle towards the fight to be ground into paste. It makes the AI act like they would in Defense almost. Or you do what I would do, which is avoid killing them entirely. If they don't die new ones wont spawn. Then you just run the timer. They'll kill each other sometimes but only sometimes. It is only slightly worse than using noise arrow, but it is also easier than noise arrow and works out the same even if you play in a squad.

 The only Warframe you can take in to win more of that kind of raw stalling power is maybe a max range and duration Limbo. The reason you don't see the value is because you're caught in the idea that you should be fighting the foes. The strategy of stalling creates a situation where you don't have to fight too awful much.

[AzureTerra]

That they play their frame how they want.

[Daskrieg]

i tend to avoid using mind control on mine and most of the time go full on sentry turret using her absorb augment, probably not making the most of her kit that way but its so fun givving the corpus a taste of what it means to be annoyed by a nullifier, sometimes i even do this with the lanka just to be a copycat.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not what I'm saying. I'm simply saying she has a poor kit that is better spread out among several other frames than having a kit dedicated to just that, or that other frames simply have better versions/options that fill the same role. Never said Nyx was a rip off of other frames, just that her kit is outdated and bloaty with all other frame choices. Simply put, she needs a massive update.

In which case, "bloat" is the only incorrect word in that analysis. "Obsolete", "outmoded", "irrelevant", maybe. You were onto something with "outdated". But she cannot be said to be suffering from "a bloated kit", that is a separate problem entirely

For reference, a bloated kit would be someone like Equinox (especially in the Lazy Speedrunner Maimquinox Meta)

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In which case, "bloat" is the only incorrect word in that analysis. "Obsolete", "outmoded", "irrelevant", maybe. You were onto something with "outdated". But she cannot be said to be suffering from "a bloated kit", that is a separate problem entirely

For reference, a bloated kit would be someone like Equinox (especially in the Lazy Speedrunner Maimquinox Meta)

I think bloat fits in because we arent dealing with actual characters here per frame, more a preset of skills fitting the situation. That would also mean that Nyx herself has a bloated kit because two of her skills fill the same purpose, the difference is that one of them is single target and the other covers the map. She also provides bloat to the whole roster because there is no reason to take her for any of her single skills when you can get more from other frames. Take Oberon for example, he can provide the same confusion "lock down" with his #2 while also killing them over time, he also brings healing, scalable damage and an armor strip/knockdown at the same time.

There are other frames aswell with bloat in their kit. Look at Rev, he may not have a bloated skill setup but he does have bloated mechanics on his skills due to how his kit works. Mesmer Skin pretty much makes all the healing/shield benefits from his other skills bloat because there is no point to them, they are just there as part of the skills even though he will very likely never ever benefit from those things. Now granted, this isnt a serious issue because it doesnt limit his active skills. Nyx however, having two skills doing practically the same suffers from bloat. She could have easily had another more useful #1 or #3 that wasnt a repetition of the other skill. Vauban has the same issue with Bastille and Vortex, they both fill the same purpose, CC, Bastille just does it better since it doesnt make the mobs go on a mary-go-round.

[Eirshy]

On 2019-01-22 at 4:59 AM, SneakyErvin said:

I'd prefer the Nyx player to play some other frame. 

Loki does what Nyx #3 does but better. He can also decide to not bring confusion to the table by simply not equipping irradiating disarm, while still bringing the regular disarm, speeding up the fights and making them less dangerous.

Mag, Oberon, Ash, Rev and Saryn all strip armor and Gas weapons ignore shields, this turns #2 into a waste.

Frost and Limbo can protect the objective just as well or better than a static Nyx sitting ontop of it or augmentedly walking around it. Rev, Wukong and Valkyr can be immune, Baruuk nearly can aswell, so as a defensive skill her #4 is also a complete waste in its current state.

Rev can MC if needed, it isnt like Nyx #1 does any remarkable damage.

Nyx kit is bloated at best while doing really nothing useful for the team.

Loki's 4 is stronger than Nyx's 3, yes, but Loki's only personal survivability comes from non-seamless invis. AoE effects can shred him by accident, and he can be 360-noscoped whenever that timer expires. Nyx's 3 is also situationally better- a cast of Chaos interrupts interception console hacks in the area, and you can recast it basically at will. I'm not 100% sure you can't use Loki's 4 a second time to interrupt a hack, but I would guess you probably can't since the stun time on it is from the disarm effect.

Mag and Ash are rather trash.
Oberon's a HoT healer with very little in the way of persistent area lockdown (snoop radi procs, about it).
Rev's durability isn't seamless and he wants a build just as premium as the one Nyx wants.
And Saryn is 100% glass cannon with a kit that compliments a shield-style of play, yet stats that force you into a health style of play.
The biggest problem with Nyx's 2 is that she needs power strength for it, and you probably dropped that stat off a cliff with OverExt.

Frost's (and Gara's) protection does not confer immunity in the slightest, Limbo forces plane-shifting to kill targets, and both suffer from the bounded field problem where the AI can poke the attack spawn point through the boundary without putting their hitbox through it and shoot the defense objective. Nyx's bubble, along with Amesha's Decoy, are the only bounded fields (off the top of my head) that are immune to this "cheat" the AI savanted its way into using, as the entire bubble is considered Nyx's hitbox and poking your barrel through it doesn't let you shoot something inside of it.

In terms of personal survivability, Rev's durability isn't seamless, Wookie still gets CC'd, and Valkyr is forced into melee-only. Baruuk's is directional and only active when not attacking- you'd do better citing Volt as superior to Nyx if you're wanting to bring up someone who has directional invulns, and Garuda for someone who can carry their directional invulns with them without a weapon restriction. In both cases, they're directional, though, so...

MC is trash in general except for pulling an Ancient Healer without having to use a specter blueprint, so I'll give you that lol

 

Nyx's kit is great for what it's specialized in, which is area securing. She's much less disruptive than Limbo, she's got a stronger (but smaller) protection than Gara or Frost, but is easier to deploy than Volt. She's got non-directional, seamless invulns for herself and the area inside her bubble, with no weapon restrictions. And her wide area IFF screw, while not also disarming as Loki's, is mounted on a sturdier frame with seamless durability and area protection, and still turns off auras , acts as an AoE interrupt, and provides IFF-screw utility.

Honestly the only issue is she doesn't shine unless you have some platinum rims. Absorb conveys invulns to an Energy Generator Dethcube even in a min-range build, Artax can shoot through your Absorb bubble (unlike Sweeper, sadly) even in a max-range build, and EGen spawns orbs which proc Arcane Energize- making the whole system highly sustainable at AE10, and trivially so with an AE20. Sure, it means your build is worth well over 4k plat, but Nyx is hardly the only frame where peasants need not apply.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Eirshy

[Eirshy]

On 2019-01-22 at 2:12 AM, Raskolnikow said:

Having some fun with her after the rework and started to wonder how to minmax every aspect of her skill set, including being "team friendly"

So my question is would you like for a random Nyx to cast her Chaos or not? If so, what color of her energy (so the Nyx holograms on enemies) would you consider the best?

Also mind control... yay or ney? AI is kinda dumb and ppl tend to shoot is thinking its regural enemy

On minmaxing, get yourself some Arcane Energize, the Assimilate mod, the Energy Generator mod, and an Artax (yes the sentinel weapon). Combine them all and you have infinite termie mode. Use Operator to reposition yourself quickly- the speed debuff from the fortshield doesn't apply to the kid.

On casting Chaos.... Depends on the mode. Defense missions, where the enemies must be killed AND you typically have to wait for them to get to you, Chaos (like most wide aoe cc) will slow the run down. But say, Exterminate, where you're already having to move to the enemies anyways, wide area CC isn't really a big issue. A better question, however, is "do I need to reduce incoming long-range fire, delay reinforcements, and/or interrupt current enemy actions with a brief stun?". Whenever the answer to that question is "yes", hit 3. Just keep in mind that using it on specifically Defense missions will slow down the run.

On color, what's more important is that you yourself can still see when you hit 4. Go into the Simulacrum, slap on Assimilate, and find a color that doesn't make it so you're blind, but is bright enough to still be visible. If it doesn't blind you, it (mostly) won't blind your allies. Chaos isn't really the thing that needs visibility- it's your Absorb bubble and MC target that do. You can supplement the MC target with a waypoint, but your absorb is on its own.

On Mind Control.... Infested Ancients and eximus units have fun auras that you can steal with it, but that's about it.

 

EDIT: Right, also on color, for the love of god turn off Bloom.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Eirshy

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, Eirshy said:

-snip-

The problem still comes down to us not needing the thing that Nyx provides which is pure CC. You say you arent sure if you can recast disarm  to interrupt hacks, but why would you want to in the first place? It is far simpler to just kill that single target right then and there. And Loki's vulnerability which is getting hit while in stealth by bullets and AoE gets removed the moment the tricky little mischief maker steals their weapons. I mean he doesnt need LoS to disarm things, so there is never a risk he gets a stray shot against him.

Also Mag trash when? She is one of the best scaling frames in the game currently due to her #3 and #4, completely neglecting armor and has the option to chain CC enemies in a fairly large area even without range mods. Mag+Gas loadout is insane versus anything.

Ash is great versus bosses with armor. In other situations he is too much single target with slooooow build up on his AoE.

Rev's durability is near seamless, the only place he lacks is versus OV targets that cant be stunned. Everywhere else he is the most reliable frame when it comes to survival and he brings great damage no matter what faction he faces.

Saryn may be glass cannonish but she doesnt need to see her targets to kill or debuff them.

There is also never a situation where I'd take Nyx for her #4 over Frost or Limbo to defend a target. I might take her over Gara, but only because Gara has a segment based wall and not a stackable one like Frost. Frost also brings 100% armor removal and high AoE damage.

[Eirshy]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The problem still comes down to us not needing the thing that Nyx provides which is pure CC. You say you arent sure if you can recast disarm  to interrupt hacks, but why would you want to in the first place? It is far simpler to just kill that single target right then and there. And Loki's vulnerability which is getting hit while in stealth by bullets and AoE gets removed the moment the tricky little mischief maker steals their weapons. I mean he doesnt need LoS to disarm things, so there is never a risk he gets a stray shot against him.

Also Mag trash when? She is one of the best scaling frames in the game currently due to her #3 and #4, completely neglecting armor and has the option to chain CC enemies in a fairly large area even without range mods. Mag+Gas loadout is insane versus anything.

Ash is great versus bosses with armor. In other situations he is too much single target with slooooow build up on his AoE.

Rev's durability is near seamless, the only place he lacks is versus OV targets that cant be stunned. Everywhere else he is the most reliable frame when it comes to survival and he brings great damage no matter what faction he faces.

Saryn may be glass cannonish but she doesnt need to see her targets to kill or debuff them.

There is also never a situation where I'd take Nyx for her #4 over Frost or Limbo to defend a target. I might take her over Gara, but only because Gara has a segment based wall and not a stackable one like Frost. Frost also brings 100% armor removal and high AoE damage.

Single target yes, gangbang on the console because you're holding point D on that one orokin tower map and you barely had time to operate out of the way of a nulli and pop an arby drone, let alone kill because it's well past wave 8 and your TTK on a group of two bombards, a healer, and three heavy gunners spread across both consoles isn't "instantaneous". The old "why CC when you can kill" suggestion works great in a vacuum, but then when you actually go into a real-world situation where sometimes you need to prioritize specific targets, throwing CC to protect the objective so you can deal with the enemies that are a larger threat to living first (ie, that nulli you only bubble-popped in my "story") is a very useful ability.

Disarm isn't a persistent aura (the debuff is), so you have to play around your cloak cooldown and make sure you throw that before it runs out. It also can get laughed at by a surprise Arby drone or an inconveniently-placed nullifier granting protection to a unit which you didn't see, and didn't react to until it was too late. In theory, sure, it'll never be a problem. In practice, you're forced to actively play around that cloak timer, which, if it lines up inconveniently with an objective task, means you're boned.

I was however just informed by a friend that Loki's 4 staggers foes that have been disarmed, so Chaos doesn't have that over it.

 

Mag is too glass with not enough cannon. She does deserve a bit more credit than I give her, but Polarize is a growth aoe and her only real "surviavability" is shield restore on self using that same growth aoe she has to really use to deal damage.

Ash? "Great versus bosses with armor"- which also aren't immune to status procs. You forgot the other half of that sentence, and the biggest problem he has. You can use him for wave clear, but Saryn is so absurdly better at it than him now, I have no idea why you would. He's not unplayable, at least, and you can do some cool things with him (instant armor strip, shareable invis, Nothing Personnel Kid, Nothing Personnel: Shadow Clone Jitsu, all with boosted slash procs is not a bad kit). But unless you bring in a specific challenge to theorycraft around he's memes/10 and not a single point higher.

On Rev, near seamless isn't seamless, and he still can't share his durability with an objective, and is still LoS dependent.

On Saryn, Chaos works through walls too, point? I'm not picking Nyx to kill things with frame powers, I'm picking her to lock down and protect the payload. Saryn is a damage frame, Nyx is a support tank. I'd honestly be worried if Nyx's 2 was remotely comparable to Saryn.

 

I will say that Frost can fix the bounded field problem by staggering his bubbles a little (and can also cover multiple points, reason he's great for a ballsy arby's excav, running at under 6 minutes per reward for at least rot A and B is just *swoon*), but ultimately he still can be picked off, the aoe damage falls off, and his bubbles really only have late wave durability against melee. Bring a Loki too, however, and he'll be cookin' with liquid hydrogen. Limbo is more mission-type-reliant and struggles with killing things if he can't use the rift as a murder closet (due to using 4 for point defense).

Nyx offers something those two don't. She's a bit weaker than Limbo in protection grade, but doesn't kill her own offense to achieve it. And she lacks the ability to cover multiple points like Frost or deal high AoE damage, but is ultimately a lot more durable.

You not playing her though is fine. Means it's less likely we'll have two in the same party. Double Nyx doesn't really enable anything new like double Limbo (one min one max; min protects the point, max deploys the murder closet and lets min be seamless), and double Frost actually allows for group maneuvers. Double Nyx is just soloing together.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Eirshy

[ThumpumGood]

On 2019-01-22 at 4:12 AM, Raskolnikow said:

Having some fun with her after the rework and started to wonder how to minmax every aspect of her skill set, including being "team friendly"

So my question is would you like for a random Nyx to cast her Chaos or not? If so, what color of her energy (so the Nyx holograms on enemies) would you consider the best?

Also mind control... yay or ney? AI is kinda dumb and ppl tend to shoot is thinking its regural enemy

Chaos. Bright color. bright green, light blue... something VERY obvious. Used to use Nyx in Law of Retribution. VERY effective in all 3 phases. Anyone who whines about Nyx using her abilities, doesnt realize they're not getting shot at as a result of Nyx. The only frame that deserves hate is Limbo

[Eirshy]

18 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

The only frame that deserves hate is Limbo

And only max-range limbo. Min-range is a bro.

[Raqiya]

Lets be honest, she pretty useless.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

She also provides bloat to the whole roster because there is no reason to take her for any of her single skills when you can get more from other frames. Take Oberon for example, he can provide the same confusion "lock down" with his #2 while also killing them over time, he also brings healing, scalable damage and an armor strip/knockdown at the same time.

That's the usage of "bloat" we agree on (even if, again, "obsolete" is more useful)

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would also mean that Nyx herself has a bloated kit because two of her skills fill the same purpose, the difference is that one of them is single target and the other covers the map.

This not so much.

Both her 1 and her 3 account for her theme of "the enemy is now shooting themselves instead of you", yes, but in drastically different ways. Her 1 literally puts the enemy on your side, adding them to your team. Her 3 by contrast does not actually add the enemy to your team; they are still hostile to the player, and can damage the player

That is the opposite of bloat. That is two abilities with wildly different usages and niches

You might as well try to argue that Volt's 1, Ember's 1, Frost's 1, Wukong's 1, etc. are "bloat". Protip, they aren't

[IIDMOII]

If you had X in a public run. What would you prefer?

The person contribute and not afk. ?

It's no one's business what gear or build anyone's using. It's a public run lol.

The real question should be;

Why bring nyx to any mission at all. Public or otherwise, with so many better choices ?

 

[CoolDudeMcCool]

44 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

Why bring nyx to any mission at all. Public or otherwise, with so many better choices ?

 

Well, fun maybe

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

Im fine as long as they break mind control in defense and do not max range chaos in defense or most missions.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Eirshy said:

Single target yes, gangbang on the console because you're holding point D on that one orokin tower map and you barely had time to operate out of the way of a nulli and pop an arby drone, let alone kill because it's well past wave 8 and your TTK on a group of two bombards, a healer, and three heavy gunners spread across both consoles isn't "instantaneous". The old "why CC when you can kill" suggestion works great in a vacuum, but then when you actually go into a real-world situation where sometimes you need to prioritize specific targets, throwing CC to protect the objective so you can deal with the enemies that are a larger threat to living first (ie, that nulli you only bubble-popped in my "story") is a very useful ability.

Disarm isn't a persistent aura (the debuff is), so you have to play around your cloak cooldown and make sure you throw that before it runs out. It also can get laughed at by a surprise Arby drone or an inconveniently-placed nullifier granting protection to a unit which you didn't see, and didn't react to until it was too late. In theory, sure, it'll never be a problem. In practice, you're forced to actively play around that cloak timer, which, if it lines up inconveniently with an objective task, means you're boned.

I was however just informed by a friend that Loki's 4 staggers foes that have been disarmed, so Chaos doesn't have that over it.

 

Mag is too glass with not enough cannon. She does deserve a bit more credit than I give her, but Polarize is a growth aoe and her only real "surviavability" is shield restore on self using that same growth aoe she has to really use to deal damage.

Ash? "Great versus bosses with armor"- which also aren't immune to status procs. You forgot the other half of that sentence, and the biggest problem he has. You can use him for wave clear, but Saryn is so absurdly better at it than him now, I have no idea why you would. He's not unplayable, at least, and you can do some cool things with him (instant armor strip, shareable invis, Nothing Personnel Kid, Nothing Personnel: Shadow Clone Jitsu, all with boosted slash procs is not a bad kit). But unless you bring in a specific challenge to theorycraft around he's memes/10 and not a single point higher.

On Rev, near seamless isn't seamless, and he still can't share his durability with an objective, and is still LoS dependent.

On Saryn, Chaos works through walls too, point? I'm not picking Nyx to kill things with frame powers, I'm picking her to lock down and protect the payload. Saryn is a damage frame, Nyx is a support tank. I'd honestly be worried if Nyx's 2 was remotely comparable to Saryn.

 

I will say that Frost can fix the bounded field problem by staggering his bubbles a little (and can also cover multiple points, reason he's great for a ballsy arby's excav, running at under 6 minutes per reward for at least rot A and B is just *swoon*), but ultimately he still can be picked off, the aoe damage falls off, and his bubbles really only have late wave durability against melee. Bring a Loki too, however, and he'll be cookin' with liquid hydrogen. Limbo is more mission-type-reliant and struggles with killing things if he can't use the rift as a murder closet (due to using 4 for point defense).

Nyx offers something those two don't. She's a bit weaker than Limbo in protection grade, but doesn't kill her own offense to achieve it. And she lacks the ability to cover multiple points like Frost or deal high AoE damage, but is ultimately a lot more durable.

You not playing her though is fine. Means it's less likely we'll have two in the same party. Double Nyx doesn't really enable anything new like double Limbo (one min one max; min protects the point, max deploys the murder closet and lets min be seamless), and double Frost actually allows for group maneuvers. Double Nyx is just soloing together.

There is no content, including Arbis that need the pure CC Nyx brings. Killing is the best CC even there. I also wouldnt bring a squishy, be it Nyx or Loki to Arbis. There is no point in either when you can instead bring something reliable as Rev which gives "unlimited" survivability, reliable CC and a massive AoE clear. Just smack an Arca Plasmor and a Pyrana Prime on him and you are set for insta killing drones aswell as nullifiers.

And Nyx isnt much safer than Frost in a excav Arbi either, both run the same risk of dying when they leave the safe spot (inside the bubble or far enough away from mobs for Chaos to keep targetting mobs and not players). But they cant stay there and rely on their skills, they need to head out there and get the power cells or face dreadfully long excav rounds. And while Frost's AoE damage may fall off, the best parts about the skill doesnt i.e the several seconds of CC and total armor removal on mobs. For Arbi excav I'd probably prefer Loki+Frost+Rev+Nova, where Loki disarms, Frost protects excav, Nova slows and Rev runs around killing and picking up power cells. Whatever slips past Rev the other 3 can pick off. Disarm is just far more reliable for everyone, because it removes the danger of stray shots for the whole party. Just because Chaos may be on the mobs and Nyx personally is at a safe distance the mobs will still shot at whoever gets closest, which means the people picking up cells. When they have no ranged weapons you can easily run around them to avoid combat as needed.

And what are you on about with Ash? He's great against all armored bosses because he simply strips their armor, that is the whole point. Ash plus a heavy hitter weapon makes short use of any boss. It doesnt matter if they are status immune, it doesnt effect his #1 augment. Or you thought I was refering to his slash procs? You are also off when it comes to Mag. You dont use her 3 to keep her TTL up, you use her #4. 4+4+3 all armor gone and Mag plus everyone around her is topped of with overshields. Still not a frame I'd take to arbis, few frames are due to how we only have one life.

My part regarding Saryn is just that she does the killing instead of the pure CC and as I said, killing is the best cc. Nyx may find a use along with Vauban some day if they decide to rework the importance of CC in the game, until that day there is no use taking them over frames with softer CC and actual damage or damage reduction capabilities.

[xarvh]

On 2019-01-23 at 2:04 PM, SirTobe said:

I play Nyx a lot, my main frame since Fortuna released. Modded for duration, efficiency, some range, and general survivability as I started using her mainly for Arbitrations. She's pretty much invulnerable and steady as a rock, except when there's leeching infested around. 

Chaos is just used for whenever I don't want enemies to focus on me, my team, or any objective. Also good if you need a quick break to regenerate energy. How much I use it completely depends on team and enemy faction, but usually not so much. Definitely handy though.

Mind Control is something I only use on tougher enemies if I don't want to deal with them while focusing on surrounding waves of weaker ones. It's my "shut up and go do something else for now"-spell. Great for Bombards and Nox, for example. What damage they deal is not important to me, as I'm just buying myself a couple more seconds before I have to deal with them.

Absorb is probably the ability I use with her the most, always with Assimilate of course. It completely ignores all enemy attacks and abilities, which is especially golden against Corpus in Orb Vallis. Move greater distances quickly with operator when needed. I try not to abuse it, but I really love to just slam into a room full of enemies, activate absorb, and just go nuts with big swords and guns as they keep swarming the place. That's very satisfying 😄 Absorb of course also works as a panic button. I usually have Rejuvenation aurora with her, so whenever I'm low on health I just go into absorb to slowly regenerate my health while continuing the battle. Same to keep the sentinel alive.

I don't use her second ability at all. My weapons are powerful enough to deal with most high level enemies quickly, and if not then I can just go into absorb and take my time lol. Not worth compromising other abilities for strength imo.

As for colors, I don't like bright ones so I just always use darker versions. As others have said, it shouldn't be blinding, but it is also good to see which enemies are affected by your abilities. With my current main fashion I think I'm using the darkest red from Halloween pallette.

That's pretty much how I play her too.
Her 3 can be useful to highlight enemies, and her 4 makes her a decent alternative if you don't want to meta the Orb Mother.
This means that the recent buff doesn't really affect how she's played the slightest.
So, as someone who really really wants to like Nyx and even uses her when there are better alternatives, the recent changes were just a "yeah, whatever".

 

[Eirshy]

@SneakyErvin

On the "Nyx has to stay far away to be safe due to Chaos" bit, you're forgetting, Nyx also has Assimilate Absorb. You use that for survivability- you don't have to position yourself at a long distance away, you can happily be immortal in the thick of it, just mind the nullis and prioritize ensiphon eximi. Chaos is to reduce the incoming fire, not eliminate it. Plus, honestly, you can just operate to get the power cells safely. Operators can pick them up and turn them in without even leaving void mode. This also lets you move at full speed (operating isn't slowed by Assimilate), and leave your fortress shield parked next to the objective while you run around picking up batteries. Or if you're limbo, leave your squishy ass safe in the rift.

On that team, it's a pretty good setup. I still would hesitate to put it against Corpus unless the map was particularly open (due to late wave nulli spam), but would be fairly solid even against Corrupted. Only concern is Loki/Nova getting @#&$ blocked by arby drones, as a large part of what makes that setup of yours work well is debuffs, not buffs. While the drones can't cure them once they land, they do stop them from landing. When it's working, it'll work great, but there's a very real stability/consistency concern, and a couple of unlucky spawns can kill ya.

On Ash... Are we even playing the same game? If you're trying to do something specific, solo, sure, I can see that being useful maybe. But even then, if you just counter-build with Radi/Coro and bring a single CP, you cut even a lv100 Kela de Thaym (~4134 Alloy) down to a ~2.016 EHP multiplier- never mind she's not immune to status, so you could just strip her armor with Coro or bleed her to death. Hell, anything with 900 or less armor takes neutral-or-better damage from Radi/Coro, and if there's a single CP in the mix, ~1285 or less. And this is before we get into the fact that a Shattering Impact Sarpa ignores status and power immunity and has no duration limit on its armor strip (letting you apply it during i-phases). As well as ignoring the fact that its fine control of how much armor you strip makes it really easy to leave a foe in that sub-900 range for Radi/Coro to get bonus damage. Again, he's memes/10- your biggest point in his favor can be duplicated in the melee slot, in a way that lends itself to even stronger minmaxing... and is ultimately unnecessary for all content in the game outside of pug eidolons- where you actually do want/need the remaining armor for the damage amp.

On Mag, firstly, I actually missed what the 4 aug did, a 50% permanent strip and 7s stun are both pretty solid, makes hitting 4 actually worth that year-long stand-still cast time with non-persistent target acquisition and the worst damage type and 100 energy per cast. However, it doesn't change the fact that she's having to try really hard with very, very, VERY poor survivability on her own. You're basically living on that 7s stun window, as overshields are only "nice to have", not actually a reliable tanking method. I still firmly believe she's too much glass with not enough cannon- Saryn strips armor almost by simply existing, with basically infinite damage scaling, better efficiency, and quicker target acquisition. Sure she's arguably more glass since her only in-kit defenses (beyond killing) are a mediocre disengage (shield-oriented on a health frame) and a weak HoT augment (compared to Mag's shield/overshield burst heals), but she's on a completely different level in terms of cannon.

Speaking of, Saryn requires time to stack up, is actually quite squishy, and conflicts horribly with additional Saryns. The stack-up part is a big reason why she'd be tripped up by the situation I described, too. She could throw a 4 just like Nyx can throw a 3 to interrupt the hacks, but she'd be stuck killing the old fashioned way just like that Nyx, because arby drones and nullis give Saryn major issues with spore stacking.

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Eirshy
accidentally left in the quote lol

[kgabor]

If i had Nyx in my team, i would prefer the pre-tweak state, seriously the old passive was way better.

[SirTobe]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is no content, including Arbis that need the pure CC Nyx brings. Killing is the best CC even there. I also wouldnt bring a squishy, be it Nyx or Loki to Arbis. There is no point in either when you can instead bring something reliable as Rev which gives "unlimited" survivability, reliable CC and a massive AoE clear. Just smack an Arca Plasmor and a Pyrana Prime on him and you are set for insta killing drones aswell as nullifiers.

And Nyx isnt much safer than Frost in a excav Arbi either, both run the same risk of dying when they leave the safe spot (inside the bubble or far enough away from mobs for Chaos to keep targetting mobs and not players). But they cant stay there and rely on their skills, they need to head out there and get the power cells or face dreadfully long excav rounds. And while Frost's AoE damage may fall off, the best parts about the skill doesnt i.e the several seconds of CC and total armor removal on mobs. For Arbi excav I'd probably prefer Loki+Frost+Rev+Nova, where Loki disarms, Frost protects excav, Nova slows and Rev runs around killing and picking up power cells. Whatever slips past Rev the other 3 can pick off. Disarm is just far more reliable for everyone, because it removes the danger of stray shots for the whole party. Just because Chaos may be on the mobs and Nyx personally is at a safe distance the mobs will still shot at whoever gets closest, which means the people picking up cells. When they have no ranged weapons you can easily run around them to avoid combat as needed.

And what are you on about with Ash? He's great against all armored bosses because he simply strips their armor, that is the whole point. Ash plus a heavy hitter weapon makes short use of any boss. It doesnt matter if they are status immune, it doesnt effect his #1 augment. Or you thought I was refering to his slash procs? You are also off when it comes to Mag. You dont use her 3 to keep her TTL up, you use her #4. 4+4+3 all armor gone and Mag plus everyone around her is topped of with overshields. Still not a frame I'd take to arbis, few frames are due to how we only have one life.

My part regarding Saryn is just that she does the killing instead of the pure CC and as I said, killing is the best cc. Nyx may find a use along with Vauban some day if they decide to rework the importance of CC in the game, until that day there is no use taking them over frames with softer CC and actual damage or damage reduction capabilities.

Dude, you really don't know what you're talking about. Have you even used her for more than mastery xp? By using absorb assimilate you always put her in the middle of the enemy, just slashing your way through them all like nothing. You easily move around quickly by dashing with the operator, or certain melee combos to jump between enemies and shorter distances. Chaos is mostly used for the rest of the team, or whenever you need to deactivate absorb when there are still enemies around. Assuming you're smart enough to carry a weapon that can easily deal with nullfiers, the ONLY threat against Nyx is leeching infested. Other than that Nyx is untouchable, top tier survival frame.

I do arbitrations with Nyx almost daily, and I had one hour in survival just a few hours ago against the currupted. Ironically it was just me and another guy playing Loki left of the squad, and we extracted because we got bored and had to take a piss, not because things got sweaty. Arbitrations is about survival, not powerful offensive abilities. Nyx ace this.

 

21 hours ago, IIDMOII said:

The real question should be;

Why bring nyx to any mission at all. Public or otherwise, with so many better choices ?

 

Better choices? We all enjoy different playstyles, and for some of us Nyx IS the better choice. There are plenty of frames doing similar things in different ways, but you have to consider the complete kit and balance of health/shields/armor/energy/speed too, which is what makes every frame unique. And just because one frame can be more powerful than others doesn't mean it's more fun to play. 

 

5 hours ago, xarvh said:

That's pretty much how I play her too.
Her 3 can be useful to highlight enemies, and her 4 makes her a decent alternative if you don't want to meta the Orb Mother.
This means that the recent buff doesn't really affect how she's played the slightest.
So, as someone who really really wants to like Nyx and even uses her when there are better alternatives, the recent changes were just a "yeah, whatever".

 

Cool. Yea I was honestly afraid that DE would mess something up with the update, but tbh it didn't change or affect how I use her at all. The update pretty much only touched the strength aspects of her abilities, but which just isn't worth modding for unless possibly you're a low level player. I did use her for the Orb as well, the few times I've bothered with this not so rewarding boss. As expected, absorb completely ignores every attack and knockdowns, and Chaos deals with surrounding enemies while you can just focus on the shooting. Pair it with a damage buffing frame and you got a pretty chill run. 

 

I feel like people have a lot of opinions about what Nyx should do, but just fail to consider what she actually does. I started playing WF last summer, so my thoughts about this frame is not affected by how she used to be, before various nerfs that I've only read about. I just took her on about 3 months ago and found a good way to make use of her kit, completely ignoring what the youtubers say. Things can of course always improve, but I honestly wouldn't say she's in a particularly bad spot. There are far less useful frames imo. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by SirTobe